anyone's department actually have new guidelines for Pacemakers

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s204367

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Hey all, working on new guidelines for our hospital for the peri-op management of PM. Already have a great system for AICDs, and yes I know about the recent consensus statement this past summer...However, anyone actually have a draft?? My big concern is the non dependent pacemaker patient that has a procedure, EMI sush as bovie is used, no intraop problems and the pt is an outpatient. I have had a LOT of difficulty getting the reps here to check the function of the PM prior to discharge......

thanks
 
"new"? i don't know about new, but interogated and then "off" before surgery, and then turned back on afterwards. that's how we do it in hershey.
 
VolatileAgent said:
"new"? i don't know about new, but interogated and then "off" before surgery, and then turned back on afterwards. that's how we do it in hershey.

Most pacemakers these days don't need to be interrogated before surgery and they definitely do not need to be turned off. Leads are more closely approximated in the heart chambers and the risk of interference, bovie malfunction is rare at best. You do however, need to know about the pacemaker, the type and the pts underlying rhythm. You also need to know what a magnet will do to it. It will not always place it in a demand mode these days.
 
62 year old comes in for an outpatient lap chole....had a DDDRO pacemaker..Not dependent on the pacemaker. Undergoes the procedure without any complications and is awaiting your signature for his discharge.....Do you think you need to query the PM????

Suppose the PM is damaged. You don't know at this point because the pt is not currently dependent on the PM. You DC him, he goes home, has a brady arrest and dies....Think you should have queried the PM???

This is causing a bit of cluster fuk in our outpts. The ASA practice advisoryconsiders it "basic postoperative care" to query all pacemaker after a procedure.
 
VolatileAgent said:
"new"? i don't know about new, but interogated and then "off" before surgery, and then turned back on afterwards. that's how we do it in hershey.

We do much the same at Stanford. Assuming the patient shows up for pre-op clinic, we have the arrhythmia service (usually a NP) interrogate the pacer. On the day of surgery, either the rep (if it's the first case of the day) or the arrythmia service generally switch the pacer to asynchronous pacing for the procedure, then back to regular in the PACU.
 
s204367 said:
62 year old comes in for an outpatient lap chole....had a DDDRO pacemaker..Not dependent on the pacemaker. Undergoes the procedure without any complications and is awaiting your signature for his discharge.....Do you think you need to query the PM????

Suppose the PM is damaged. You don't know at this point because the pt is not currently dependent on the PM. You DC him, he goes home, has a brady arrest and dies....Think you should have queried the PM???

This is causing a bit of cluster fuk in our outpts. The ASA practice advisoryconsiders it "basic postoperative care" to query all pacemaker after a procedure.


Yes you do need to interogate it post-op. If you read my post, I stated that it doesn't need it b/4 the surgery.
 
Noyac said:
Yes you do need to interogate it post-op. If you read my post, I stated that it doesn't need it b/4 the surgery.

i guess it's another stop-gap. and its medicolegal. if the thing fired (talking AICD, of course) since they were in the pre-op clinic or there was some arrythmia, our docs want to know about it before they go under. just our standard of care here. better safe than sorry, i guess.
 
What a waste of time. Pacemakers telemetry spectrum doesnt overlap with any other hospital equipment, and even if it did, all pacemakers have digital authentication to prevent crosstalk. You can have 50 pacemakers in the same room and interrogate/reprogram all of them simultaneously due to the authentication programming.

The only way a pacemaker would be damaged by EM interference is MRI. MRI magnetic fields are strong enough to induce currents in the coils and possibly interfere with them. Otherwise, the risk of interference in any operatuing suite or anywhere else in the hospital other than MRI is just about zero.
 
Why don't you pull your head out of your arse and read the update on pacemakers in the July issue of Anesthesiology, along with the ACC/AHA guidelines, along with perhaps the best paper about PM in the '99 annals of surgery..look up authors Madigan and Mehmet Oz. This paper will tell you exactly how the interference can and does interfere with various PM.

Pacemekers DO pick up electrical interfenence. Just look at your EKG leads when some one is using the monopolar. The pacemaker sees the same thing. It is programmed to try to block out interference, however if it can not then it will see this interference as noise and can revert to an asynchronous mode at a rate determined by the manufacturer. Talk to your EP guys. I have gone over this with them and they do see this.
Below are some other ways in which EMI can interfer with PM. Remember, there are two tyopes of EMI..conducted(bovie) radiated(MRI).

1.)Signal may be interpreted as cardiac in origin, and temporarily inhibit or trigger output.
2.)The signal may be interpreted as noise, and temporarily cause reversion to an asynchronous mode at a rate set by the manufacturer.-very common,
3.The signal may be interpreted as a programming signal, leading to inappropriate reprogramming.
4.Long bursts of electrocautery can result in a train of electrical impulses conducted down the lead causing atrial or ventricular fibrillation.
5.)High levels of electrocautery can pass down the leads and cause thermal burns in the endocardium, causing an inability of the pacer to capture and pace.
6.High levels of current can pass from the leads to the pulse generator and cause irreversible loss of battery output.


Also, the fourth symbol determines a rate variable capability....can be set to vibration, RR, CO, pH and allows for the pacer to vary according to metabolic demand. The impedence sensors(RR), commonly cause problems in the OR when using HP monitors.

In addition, and this statement really shows your ignorance..50 pacemakers can not be reprogrammed at the same time...While all of the carious manufacturers have agreed to the nomenclature for PM, each manufacturer uses a different wand for reprogramming. These wands are NOT compatible with eachother.

The purpose of this statement was to see if anyone's hospital has a policy. When Iwas a resident pts would often show up with a PM, have no idea why it was placed and almost never had their PM ID card. With such strong statements from the ASA and AHA regarding the pre andpost evaluation of PM this has become an issue not only for pt care, but for legal issues as well. Also, both guidant and medtronics recalled a ****load of PM this year for problems with battery function.....
 
Yeah McGyver! So bugger off you piss ant! 😍
 
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