AOA psychiatry spots

[Rapunzeldances]

After not matching, I am considering the few remaining AOA psychiatry positions. Does anyone know much about them? Two of them are newer programs: Detroit and Joplin. Millcreek in PA is not new but low salary, no moonlighting and frequent call. I guess I wonder what people think about a brand new AOA psychiatry position vs Millcreek vs reapplying next year. I have heard that currently it is difficult to get credit for AOA residency if you try to transfer later. Which means you may not get funding for a year and may limit reapplication. How much does it matter where I go for residency and getting a ACGME fellowship and doing C&L? I really want a job but it seems like going AOA may create problems down the road.

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[peppy]

Sorry to hear that you didn't match. If you think you would not be happy at one of the categorical AOA programs and would want to transfer next year, I would instead recommend just focusing on trying to get a traditional rotating internship.
With a TRI, they will understand and expect that you will want to move on next year, whereas trying to transfer out of a program that was expecting you to stay to finish the program could cause bad feelings and they might possibly make things hard for you.
I chose to do a TRI rather than pursue Millcreek (It didn't fill the first year I tried to match either - my impression is that Millcreek doesn't have a great reputation). I felt it was a lot easier to make a strong effort at reapplying since my program director fully supported me in doing so and there was no problem getting time off to interview or any reason to worry my program director would badmouth me to other programs. I didn't love having to do some of the medicine months over again, but if you want to do consult psych, extra exposure to medicine can only help you.

I'm not sure whether you can do an ACGME fellowship from an AOA program but I do hear that it is easy to find a position doing consults without having to do a fellowship (and many people opt not to do the fellowship because it doesn't lead to better pay or anything - the main reason to do the fellowship from what I've seen is just if you want an academic career in psychosomatic medicine).

 

[JamesPhilly]

*error ops

 

[myPsychAlt]

just curious, which hospital is the Detroit program? Ford?

 

[st2205]

Tough to say. In 2015 all residencies will fall under ACGME, so I could only assume that it would make the issue of being able to do a fellowship irrelevant. In the other hand, I know so little about the AOA programs and I don't know if being absorbed by ACGME would close any of the newer programs (I haven't heard this, I'm just thinking out loud).

My wife is from about 50 miles south of Joplin, so I inquired about the program with the PD an he referred me to the PC for info, but she never got back to me (I'd think recruiting people with a connection to the area with a new program would be a big priority). In any case, I can't say what you should do, but if it were me I'd probably take the Joplin spot (or somewhere else). I'd never go to Millcreek because the ****ty salary and if they don't let you moonlight on top of supposedly working you hard, then no thanks.

I'd say AOA program > medicine preliminary = AOA TY > Surgery preliminary

Best of luck. Keep us posted.

 

[DJspreadsheet]

Tough to say. In 2015 all residencies will fall under ACGME, so I could only assume that it would make the issue of being able to do a fellowship irrelevant. In the other hand, I know so little about the AOA programs and I don't know if being absorbed by ACGME would close any of the newer programs (I haven't heard this, I'm just thinking out loud).

My wife is from about 50 miles south of Joplin, so I inquired about the program with the PD an he referred me to the PC for info, but she never got back to me (I'd think recruiting people with a connection to the area with a new program would be a big priority). In any case, I can't say what you should do, but if it were me I'd probably take the Joplin spot (or somewhere else). I'd never go to Millcreek because the ****ty salary and if they don't let you moonlight on top of supposedly working you hard, then no thanks.

I'd say AOA program > medicine preliminary = AOA TY > Surgery preliminary

Best of luck. Keep us posted.

What's their salary, out of curiosity?

 

[ajndersn]

40k

 

[st2205]

40k

It's gone up a bit. It used to be like 35k.

 

[NJWxMan]

A few things...

40K for Erie, PA is PLENTY. I had a respectable 1 room apartment for $325/month and it was located in Millcreek Hospital's backyard, so you'd have no commute as well, which means saving at least $30-40 per week in gas money.

Now, in terms of the Millcreek program...When I was a student, the underlying rumor (and based on direct input from the actual residents) was that it was a very relaxed, low demand program. All call was from home. In fact, I remember that patients would be admitted directly via the phone. This may have changed and I believe that they have a child fellowship now as well.


IMO...avoid the medicine or surgery prelims. I've seen people in this situation and I know they all regretted it.

An option that very, very few realize...Enter directly into a child fellowship! There are a few programs that are known to have difficulty filling year in and year out and occasionally take PGY-1's. Now, obviously, you would have to find a program that would then taken you for your general residency thereafter. These days, I think it is a very big mistake NOT taking the extra year and completing a child fellowship. You are looking at an extra 25K per year in most situations.

 

[Rapunzeldances]

A few things...

40K for Erie, PA is PLENTY. I had a respectable 1 room apartment for $325/month and it was located in Millcreek Hospital's backyard, so you'd have no commute as well, which means saving at least $30-40 per week in gas money.

Now, in terms of the Millcreek program...When I was a student, the underlying rumor (and based on direct input from the actual residents) was that it was a very relaxed, low demand program. All call was from home. In fact, I remember that patients would be admitted directly via the phone. This may have changed and I believe that they have a child fellowship now as well.


IMO...avoid the medicine or surgery prelims. I've seen people in this situation and I know they all regretted it.


An option that very, very few realize...Enter directly into a child fellowship! There are a few programs that are known to have difficulty filling year in and year out and occasionally take PGY-1's. Now, obviously, you would have to find a program that would then taken you for your general residency thereafter. These days, I think it is a very big mistake NOT taking the extra year and completing a child fellowship. You are looking at an extra 25K per year in most situations.

Well that is interesting about Mill Creek. I am aware of the ability to go directly into a child fellowship. There is one problem: I can't stand child! The extra money is not worth the emotional drain I felt everyday on that rotation. The root of the problem seems to be largely with the parents who are not willing to change. I felt C&L was a better fit for me and is not draining at all. It is also where my talent lies. Even though the pay is much less I know it is something I will be happy doing for my entire career. If you do what you love, you can never go wrong.

Thanks for the response! I don't want to do a transitional or IM year. I would rather find a research job for a year if I have to. For me it will be either AOA, off cycle spot or reapply. I had problems with my Step 2 this year and if my score had been in by rank deadline I think I would have matched. I was told by programs that they couldn't rank me without a score. But I still got offered 8 interviews and was told my application was otherwise very strong. So if I have to take time off I will pass Step 3 and I think have no trouble next year.

 

[JamesPhilly]

I don't want to do a transitional or IM year. I would rather find a research job for a year if I have to. For me it will be either AOA, off cycle spot or reapply. I had problems with my Step 2 this year.

Not sure what you mean by 'problems with Step 2', but I'd say that a research year is not the way to go. Do you have any research experience? I'm the responsible PI for a couple of projects at my school and when people apply to the research assistant position they tend to overvalue their MD/DO degree; unless you have prior publications I doubt it you'll get a research job that's worth anything because our degrees are pretty worthless from this perspective. In other words, medical degrees are not research based and it's doubtful you have the prerequisite skills more than, say, a premed who can't get into medical school, or a person with an MPH in biostats

If you have problems with your step scores and you really don't want Erie, I'd say a transitional year is the way to go. And I'd get it NOW before they all dry up. Good luck

Also I'd PM to toothless rufus (sp?) as he was in your similar position several years ago.

 

[Rapunzeldances]

Not sure what you mean by 'problems with Step 2', but I'd say that a research year is not the way to go. Do you have any research experience? I'm the responsible PI for a couple of projects at my school and when people apply to the research assistant position they tend to overvalue their MD/DO degree; unless you have prior publications I doubt it you'll get a research job that's worth anything because our degrees are pretty worthless from this perspective. In other words, medical degrees are not research based and it's doubtful you have the prerequisite skills more than, say, a premed who can't get into medical school, or a person with an MPH in biostats

If you have problems with your step scores and you really don't want Erie, I'd say a transitional year is the way to go. And I'd get it NOW before they all dry up. Good luck

Also I'd PM to toothless rufus (sp?) as he was in your similar position several years ago.

I have published 2 papers, 5 years research experience if you count undergraduate work, and won a travel grant to present my research at a national conference. I would be surprised if I couldn't find anything. The real challenge is getting someone to agree to only hiring me for a year. Usually they want a 2 year commitment for research.

 

[JamesPhilly]

I have published 2 papers, 5 years research experience if you count undergraduate work, and won a travel grant to present my research at a national conference. I would be surprised if I couldn't find anything.

You probably also find it surprising that you didn't match. I'm not trying to be mean, but I feel you need a reality check. 2 papers over 5 years is not really very impressive, it implies pipette technician. Look at the data on last year's match, most applicants to psych have at least 1 publication. I'm hardly a research workhorse being at a DO school, but we've published 2 papers per year over the last 4 years. Grants for students presenting research are common and all of our students get them (except when the APA was in Hawaii, that was a tough year). PDs know this.

don't get me wrong, the fact that you have 2 publications are a great thing. And if you're in Science or JAMA you're set for sure. But if you didn't match and ranked 8 programs, I think that research may not be your weak point. Showing that you're a competent physician via a TRI is probably the best way to go. Listen to Peppy, he knows what he's talking about

I wish you the best of luck and I hope I don't sound like a jerk.

 

[Rapunzeldances]

You probably also find it surprising that you didn't match. I'm not trying to be mean, but I feel you need a reality check. 2 papers over 5 years is not really very impressive, it implies pipette technician. Look at the data on last year's match, most applicants to psych have at least 1 publication. I'm hardly a research workhorse being at a DO school, but we've published 2 papers per year over the last 4 years. Grants for students presenting research are common and all of our students get them (except when the APA was in Hawaii, that was a tough year). PDs know this.

don't get me wrong, the fact that you have 2 publications are a great thing. And if you're in Science or JAMA you're set for sure. But if you didn't match and ranked 8 programs, I think that research may not be your weak point. Showing that you're a competent physician via a TRI is probably the best way to go. Listen to Peppy, he knows what he's talking about

I wish you the best of luck and I hope I don't sound like a jerk.

I appreciate the constructive feedback. I was told from a PD that I needed to take Step 3 to have a good chance at next year's match since my Step 2 is the reason I was unsuccessful. I am not all surprised that I did not match since I was warned that programs are very rarely willing to rank someone without a passing Step 2 by the rank deadline. I agree that a transitional year would be helpful but it will limit me again for switching programs according to the President at my school. The only transitional programs available are AOA too. Programs won't be able to fund me for a year if I go that route. Just worried about what my decision will mean for next year.

 

[JamesPhilly]

Well I'm glad I didn't come off as a jerk. You seem like a level headed fellow and I do wish you the best of luck

I agree that a transitional year would be helpful but it will limit me again for switching programs according to the President at my school.

TRIs are meant for people who didn't match, I really don't see how switching programs is going to be difficult. In fact, as Peppy mentioned, they (your program) will be understanding that you need to interview and should be accommodating

The only transitional programs available are AOA too. Programs won't be able to fund me for a year if I go that route. Just worried about what my decision will mean for next year.

I haven't heard that. Peppy did exactly this, a TRI before ACGME psych, and he didn't mention this. Peppy, can you comment on this?

It sounds like you have your mind made up, but this thread could be helpful to people in the future. Again, best of luck to you!

 

[Rapunzeldances]

"I haven't heard that. Peppy did exactly this, a TRI before ACGME psych, and he didn't mention this."


It isn't clear to me if Peppy did an AOA or ACGME TRI. The President told me that some schools may not be able to fund you for that extra year whereas there are some programs that can (programs with bigger wallets). He made it sound like you only have so many years of getting funding and every extra year takes away from that. He just explained to me that an ACGME will count for credit at an ACGME program but AOA does not transfer. He advised me against from doing FM categorical since it is a 3 yr program and psych is 4 years. Thus, I would also be short a year of funding even if ACGME. The President told me that it would be more challenging to find a program that would cover it, but not impossible. Some programs are willing to take the pay cut. I just have no idea which programs they are. But if someone knows more about this subject, I would love to hear it. I am not sure where to find the official policy on this.

 

[NJWxMan]

There lays the answer...no step 2 = no ranking by programs. It's too big of a risk. If you don't pass step 2 or part 2 COMLEX, the program can do nothing and they have to scramble to find someone last minute that may be a mediocre candidate at best. There is such a large range in clinical and social abilities of applicants that a truly poor resident can really rip a program to shreds, especially smaller ones. This usually scares PD's to the core. People don't realize this part either...it's really, really embarrassing and frustrating for PD's when all of the attendings are constantly voicing concerns and frustrations over the same resident over and over again.

 

[st2205]

I'm nearly certain that peppy (a female, btw) did an AOA TRI. As a bonus, licensing would never be a problem.

 

[peppy]

I'm nearly certain that peppy (a female, btw) did an AOA TRI. As a bonus, licensing would never be a problem.

👍 You're right. I am female and I did an AOA traditional rotating internship. I tried contacting the ABPN to see if they would give me any credit for my AOA internship but they said no. There was one program where when I interviewed with the chairman he commented on the funding issue, but the other programs did not seem to care. I think having something clinical to do during the year helps more than the funding issue hurts.

 

[vistaril]

You probably also find it surprising that you didn't match. I'm not trying to be mean, but I feel you need a reality check. 2 papers over 5 years is not really very impressive, it implies pipette technician. Look at the data on last year's match, most applicants to psych have at least 1 publication. I'm hardly a research workhorse being at a DO school, but we've published 2 papers per year over the last 4 years. Grants for students presenting research are common and all of our students get them (except when the APA was in Hawaii, that was a tough year). PDs know this.

don't get me wrong, the fact that you have 2 publications are a great thing. And if you're in Science or JAMA you're set for sure. But if you didn't match and ranked 8 programs, I think that research may not be your weak point. .

oh jesus this is terrible advice....lack of research is NEVER a weak point for why someone didnt match in psych. Nowhere in the history of the psychiatry match has an applicant failed to match because of 'lack of research'......the OP failed to match for other reasons.

 

[vistaril]

Well that is interesting about Mill Creek. I am aware of the ability to go directly into a child fellowship. There is one problem: I can't stand child! The extra money is not worth the emotional drain I felt everyday on that rotation. The root of the problem seems to be largely with the parents who are not willing to change. I felt C&L was a better fit for me and is not draining at all. It is also where my talent lies. Even though the pay is much less I know it is something I will be happy doing for my entire career. If you do what you love, you can never go wrong.

Thanks for the response! I don't want to do a transitional or IM year. I would rather find a research job for a year if I have to. For me it will be either AOA, off cycle spot or reapply. I had problems with my Step 2 this year and if my score had been in by rank deadline I think I would have matched. I was told by programs that they couldn't rank me without a score. But I still got offered 8 interviews and was told my application was otherwise very strong. So if I have to take time off I will pass Step 3 and I think have no trouble next year.

So Im confused...do you now have a passing step 2 score? If you do, and the rest of your application is 'strong'(which I doubt...you didnt match after all), then you're set....you could fly fish all of this upcoming year with a 'strong' application and passing step1 and step2 scores and still match somewhere.

 

[Sir James Bond]

What the bloody hell is an AOA spot? Alpha Omega Alpha honors medical society? Are these honors psychiatry programs? What is Mill Creek, or Joplin..... like Janis Joplin? Are these schools for woodsmen? Mill Creek sounds like small town in Virginia where they chop lumber. They don't even sound like universities, or even hospitals. Joplin College, never heard of it. When I applied to UCSF, Longwood, UCLA and the like my counselor never mentioned Mill Creek as a backup. In fact, if you paid me 10 dollars for every time a classmate, nurse, resident, or attending uttered the word Joplin over the last 4 years, I'd have 0 bucks. I'm very confused. What on God's green earth are you chaps talking about?

And this TRI identifier, sounds to me like Star Wars speak for space vehicles, the TRI Walker. Does TRI somehow imply "try" as in you tried to get a residency spot but had to TRI for a TRI program, sort of like SOAP or scramble? What is TRI? Just spell it TRY, no need for hip hop fanciness. JZ sold millions of albums so he's earned the right to spell his name Jay Z, but TRI has nothing to show, and hasn't earned the right. So it should be TRY.

The title of the thread is AOA psych spots... please. You can't make it sound more sexy than it is. Call this thread Unheard-of psych spots... less misleading than AOA. Most AOA applicants don't even go into psychiatry... The only time anyone in medicine should use AOA is in reference to the honor society, and my active refusal to accept any other meaning of AOA is to demonstrate the point.

 

[Dharma]

What the bloody hell is an AOA spot? Alpha Omega Alpha honors medical society? Are these honors psychiatry programs? What is Mill Creek, or Joplin..... like Janis Joplin? Are these schools for woodsmen? Mill Creek sounds like small town in Virginia where they chop lumber. They don't even sound like universities, or even hospitals. Joplin College, never heard of it. When I applied to UCSF, Longwood, UCLA and the like my counselor never mentioned Mill Creek as a backup. In fact, if you paid me 10 dollars for every time a classmate, nurse, resident, or attending uttered the word Joplin over the last 4 years, I'd have 0 bucks. I'm very confused. What on God's green earth are you chaps talking about?

And this TRI identifier, sounds to me like Star Wars speak for space vehicles, the TRI Walker. Does TRI somehow imply "try" as in you tried to get a residency spot but had to TRI for a TRI program, sort of like SOAP or scramble? What is TRI? Just spell it TRY, no need for hip hop fanciness. JZ sold millions of albums so he's earned the right to spell his name Jay Z, but TRI has nothing to show, and hasn't earned the right. So it should be TRY.

The title of the thread is AOA psych spots... please. You can't make it sound more sexy than it is. Call this thread Unheard-of psych spots... less misleading than AOA. Most AOA applicants don't even go into psychiatry... The only time anyone in medicine should use AOA is in reference to the honor society, and my active refusal to accept any other meaning of AOA is to demonstrate the point.

Lacking in effort, you are not.

 

[Rapunzeldances]

So Im confused...do you now have a passing step 2 score? If you do, and the rest of your application is 'strong'(which I doubt...you didnt match after all), then you're set....you could fly fish all of this upcoming year with a 'strong' application and passing step1 and step2 scores and still match somewhere.

I didn't begin this thread to analyze the reasons I didn't match. But if it makes you feel better I will elaborate. I took Step-2 3 times and passed on the third attempt. I worked with someone on my test taking skills the third time and that made all the difference. Not a great score on Step 1 but passed on first attempt. All of the programs told me they could not rank me at all without a passing score by the rank deadline, but they didn't care what score it was. One program said they had been burned in the past with ranking someone and then they didn't graduate and it was a huge fiasco. PD I am close to said it could be a match violation, although I didn't see how it could be unless I knew for certain I couldn't complete my obligation. I got 8 interview offers, but only went to 5 interviews and ranked 5 programs. I was a late applicant in the season which limited my interviews too. I turned down the other 3 interviews to focus on retaking the test. (Since graduation was more important than matching.) The parts of my application that are frequently commented on by PD's during my interviews are: Strong LOR's with a particularly glowing letter from a psychiatry PD that says that I outshined her 2nd year resident on the c&l rotation (which I did), "impressive personal statement"(one program said it was the best they read all season), and most programs asked about my research (but I did get the feeling that no one truly cared about it since it isn't emphasized in their program). I have also been told that I interview really well and am a well rounded applicant with a "strong application". I have other stuff on CV like president of multiple clubs, teaching assistant in college, and involved in national psych organization. Most programs told me that character, social skills, and work ethic were more important than being a great test taker to them. I am sure there are programs that feel differently about the board exams, but this was what I was told from where I interviewed at. I know that the timing of when I got the passing Step 2 score was the vital piece I was missing since one program afterwards told me it would have ended differently if I had that by the deadline. The PD that wrote me the glowing letter really wanted me in her program but it was against their policy to rank someone without the score. This PD also told me I would have been ranked very highly and matched if I had that score in. So I feel that I could have gotten into at least 2 of the programs, but I haven't contacted any of the others. It is over now and I am trying to move forward. I know a lot of applicants look at their application and wonder what went wrong. Fortunately I know what happened and am able to confidently address that in my interviews.

I now have completed a few interviews post-match and am trying to decide which offer to take.

 

[NJWxMan]

This post should be nominated for Garbage Post of the Year. It's such a terrible post in so many ways that I'm thinking that it's pure ignorance as opposed to trolling.

What the bloody hell is an AOA spot? Alpha Omega Alpha honors medical society? Are these honors psychiatry programs? What is Mill Creek, or Joplin..... like Janis Joplin? Are these schools for woodsmen? Mill Creek sounds like small town in Virginia where they chop lumber. They don't even sound like universities, or even hospitals. Joplin College, never heard of it. When I applied to UCSF, Longwood, UCLA and the like my counselor never mentioned Mill Creek as a backup. In fact, if you paid me 10 dollars for every time a classmate, nurse, resident, or attending uttered the word Joplin over the last 4 years, I'd have 0 bucks. I'm very confused. What on God's green earth are you chaps talking about?

And this TRI identifier, sounds to me like Star Wars speak for space vehicles, the TRI Walker. Does TRI somehow imply "try" as in you tried to get a residency spot but had to TRI for a TRI program, sort of like SOAP or scramble? What is TRI? Just spell it TRY, no need for hip hop fanciness. JZ sold millions of albums so he's earned the right to spell his name Jay Z, but TRI has nothing to show, and hasn't earned the right. So it should be TRY.

The title of the thread is AOA psych spots... please. You can't make it sound more sexy than it is. Call this thread Unheard-of psych spots... less misleading than AOA. Most AOA applicants don't even go into psychiatry... The only time anyone in medicine should use AOA is in reference to the honor society, and my active refusal to accept any other meaning of AOA is to demonstrate the point.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Anyone who can reference Jay Z, Janis Joplin, the state of Virginia, Star Wars, psychiatry, the lumber industry, and the AOA in a single post is, I have to admit, ingenious!

 

[NJWxMan]

Uh, tell that to my patients that are running around with flight of thoughts.

Anyone who can reference Jay Z, Janis Joplin, the state of Virginia, Star Wars, psychiatry, the lumber industry, and the AOA in a single post is, I have to admit, ingenious!

 

[vistaril]

What the bloody hell is an AOA spot? Alpha Omega Alpha honors medical society? Are these honors psychiatry programs? What is Mill Creek, or Joplin..... like Janis Joplin? Are these schools for woodsmen? Mill Creek sounds like small town in Virginia where they chop lumber. They don't even sound like universities, or even hospitals. Joplin College, never heard of it. When I applied to UCSF, Longwood, UCLA and the like my counselor never mentioned Mill Creek as a backup. In fact, if you paid me 10 dollars for every time a classmate, nurse, resident, or attending uttered the word Joplin over the last 4 years, I'd have 0 bucks. I'm very confused. What on God's green earth are you chaps talking about?

And this TRI identifier, sounds to me like Star Wars speak for space vehicles, the TRI Walker. Does TRI somehow imply "try" as in you tried to get a residency spot but had to TRI for a TRI program, sort of like SOAP or scramble? What is TRI? Just spell it TRY, no need for hip hop fanciness. JZ sold millions of albums so he's earned the right to spell his name Jay Z, but TRI has nothing to show, and hasn't earned the right. So it should be TRY.

The title of the thread is AOA psych spots... please. You can't make it sound more sexy than it is. Call this thread Unheard-of psych spots... less misleading than AOA. Most AOA applicants don't even go into psychiatry... The only time anyone in medicine should use AOA is in reference to the honor society, and my active refusal to accept any other meaning of AOA is to demonstrate the point.

dude, this cracked me up

 

[markglt]

peppy....a female...who knew...i always imagined peppy to be a doood.
so, peppy,... how u doin

AOA...osteopath programs i believe. Y/N?

 

[JamesPhilly]

I think that research may not be your weak point. Showing that you're a competent physician via a TRI is probably the best way to go.

oh jesus this is terrible advice....lack of research is NEVER a weak point for why someone didnt match in psych.

I think you need to read my post a little better. I did not blame a lack of research on why s/he didn't match...in fact I clearly said the opposite.

 

[Scorcher31]

Don't get me wrong it hurts that you failed step 2 a couple of times, but you most likely would have matched somewhere if you had the pass result in by match. Most programs I know of will not match a resident without a passing step 2 score end of story. It probably dosen't matter what the heck you do this year, but if I was you, I would do everything in my power to make sure I had Step 3 passed on the first try prior to interviews. That will likely redeem you to most programs as Step 2 and Step 3 are very close to the same exam.

 

[Rapunzeldances]

I have been accepted to a psychiatry residency! What a relief! This is what I really want to do and didn't really want to take a year off. I was trying to hold out for psychiatry rather than do a TRI. It was a gamble but I am glad it paid off! My heart goes out to all those that did not match. It is a really tough spot to be in. For those that will apply next year, my advice: 1. Of course pass Step 2, but realize that if you don't on the first try there are many quality programs willing to overlook it if you make the rest of your application good 2. Apply early-I stupidly read SDN and took advice from someone that said to apply only with a passing score 3. Work really hard on your personal statement and don't regurgitate your CV on it. Try to find your own voice and reflect on what specifically is unique about your passion for psychiatry. This is an analytical field so analyze your interest. 4. Work your ass off on your Sub-I. This was the single best thing I did all year. It was also helpful that it was with a PD. Being on the good side of a PD has its perks. I was approached for a potential off cycle position because of it and had such great support and advice during this hellish experience. I also had a glowing LOR that told programs I perform better clinically than the Step 2 suggests. I hope that is helpful to someone out there.

 

[Lavenlian]

Given the fact that you've had so many struggles just passing CK, you might want to consider trying to get through Step 3 before residency begins. As a resident, free time is a commodity and unless you've found the cures to your USMLE ills, it might be very difficult during intern or second year.

 

[NJWxMan]

More bad advice. There is NEVER a time that a US grad should ever "wait out" to pass boards before starting residency. 1) This guy is a DO and will be taking COMLEX 3. I took the exam a few years ago and it was very lenient exam. Everyone that I knew that took it with me scored in the 700's without studying very much. 2) Residency helps prepare for COMLEX 3. 3) This is psychiatry residency and not a prelim surgery year; he will have plenty of time to study and prepare. He likely has two years before his program even requires him to take the exam, let alone pass it.

Given the fact that you've had so many struggles just passing CK, you might want to consider trying to get through Step 3 before residency begins. As a resident, free time is a commodity and unless you've found the cures to your USMLE ills, it might be very difficult during intern or second year.

 

[MrDocMD]

Given the fact that you've had so many struggles just passing CK, you might want to consider trying to get through Step 3 before residency begins. As a resident, free time is a commodity and unless you've found the cures to your USMLE ills, it might be very difficult during intern or second year.

You haven't even started residency yet. Why are you giving him advice on how much time he'll have in residency to prepare for an exam that residency prepares you for?

 

[Lavenlian]

More bad advice. There is NEVER a time that a US grad should ever "wait out" to pass boards before starting residency. 1) This guy is a DO and will be taking COMLEX 3. I took the exam a few years ago and it was very lenient exam. Everyone that I knew that took it with me scored in the 700's without studying very much. 2) Residency helps prepare for COMLEX 3. 3) This is psychiatry residency and not a prelim surgery year; he will have plenty of time to study and prepare. He likely has two years before his program even requires him to take the exam, let alone pass it.

I never recommended the OP to "wait out." OP has gotten residency and mentioned Step exams so I suggested finishing Step 3 prior to beginning residency. If OP is taking COMLEX, I know nothing about that exam so then the argument is moot.

I would love to see how Psych residency truly prepares you for the Step 3 exam - you know because all Psych residencies have Peds, Surgery, and OB/GYN rotations.

There are several residents and PDs that I have communicated with across various specialties especially from SDN who opine the same view as mine. Before you go dismissing my advice as bad from the get go, realize that someone who has had multiple attempts on CK could actually have an issue on Step 3. And there are residents who are asked to take a leave or in some cases are dismissed for not passing the exam on time.

 

[Lavenlian]

You haven't even started residency yet. Why are you giving him advice on how much time he'll have in residency to prepare for an exam that residency prepares you for?

Why are you giving me advice on what advice to give? If you don't like it, don't take it.

I've already passed Step 3 and I've known many residents (especially Psych) that said they wished they had gotten it out of the way before residency. Must I be in residency to know that little free time exists in intern year due to the proverbial learning/adjustment curve? Okay let's assume a resident decides to take the exam as a PGY-2. That is two full years removed from medical school and all the rotations whose subject material is covered in this exam. Your contention that residency prepares you for Step 3 is an incorrect blanket statement - talk to a Pathology resident about how much he/she does in residency is covered in the exam. The same could be said about Psych to a lesser extent (and that is given if the Psych resident takes the exam by the end of intern or second year depending upon his/her rotation schedule). Please tell me how Psych residency will prepare any resident for a standardized exam that features questions on diagnosis and management in Peds, OB/GYN, or Surgery for example (some Psych residencies may have Peds training; are there any with rotations in OB/GYN or Surgery?).

https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/110512_Sierra-I_1300_Swanson_step3%20121104.pdf

My intent from my previous post was to make the OP's life a little bit easier during residency given a previous history of struggles in exams.

 

[NJWxMan]

Lavenlian,

With all due respect, you are out of your league right now. You have no room to discuss experiences that you have no yet had.

Residency does in fact help with step 3, whether it be COMLEX or USMLE.
In fact, right after first year of residency is a prime time to take the exam for most psychiatry residents. Why? Psychiatry residents are required to complete the 4 months of medicine and 2 months of Neurology (some programs bookend the Neurology). The medicine months alone really do help with knowledge base.

FWIW, I have never met an American grad. that had taken step 3 prior to entering residency and I know many, many American grads.

You are NOT making the OP's life easier; you are making things more complicated.

Why are you giving me advice on what advice to give? If you don't like it, don't take it.

I've already passed Step 3 and I've known many residents (especially Psych) that said they wished they had gotten it out of the way before residency. Must I be in residency to know that little free time exists in intern year due to the proverbial learning/adjustment curve? Okay let's assume a resident decides to take the exam as a PGY-2. That is two full years removed from medical school and all the rotations whose subject material is covered in this exam. Your contention that residency prepares you for Step 3 is an incorrect blanket statement - talk to a Pathology resident about how much he/she does in residency is covered in the exam. The same could be said about Psych to a lesser extent (and that is given if the Psych resident takes the exam by the end of intern or second year depending upon his/her rotation schedule). Please tell me how Psych residency will prepare any resident for a standardized exam that features questions on diagnosis and management in Peds, OB/GYN, or Surgery for example (some Psych residencies may have Peds training; are there any with rotations in OB/GYN or Surgery?).

https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/110512_Sierra-I_1300_Swanson_step3%20121104.pdf

My intent from my previous post was to make the OP's life a little bit easier during residency given a previous history of struggles in exams.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

My institutions grad ed policy insists that residents take (that is take, not pass) part III before the end of their PGY-I year. I think most psychiatry programs are similar.

 

[notdeadyet]

I would love to see how Psych residency truly prepares you for the Step 3 exam - you know because all Psych residencies have Peds, Surgery, and OB/GYN rotations.

This is why you're a little out of your lane. I'm sure your advice is heartfelt, but I'd defer giving advice on something like this until you have firsthand knowledge. Otherwise it's just speculation.

The Step 3 is skewed towards urgent and primary care management, which you get firsthand experience of in a psych internship. The test is designed to test skills every doctor should already be developing, not just regurgitating for a test. For someone with a past history that shows they struggle with standardized testing, recommending taking a standardized test before typical preparation (which for the Step 3 is intern year) is bad juju.

You're right that intern year has its own stressors and time constraints, but the experience directly applicable to the test far outweighs it. Particularly for folks who are not strong on USMLE testing to begin with.

Unless things have changed, the USMLE restricted folks from taking the Step 3 until after graduating medical school. This is to make sure folks have access to the experience that will help with the test.

 

[vistaril]

I never recommended the OP to "wait out." OP has gotten residency and mentioned Step exams so I suggested finishing Step 3 prior to beginning residency. If OP is taking COMLEX, I know nothing about that exam so then the argument is moot.

I would love to see how Psych residency truly prepares you for the Step 3 exam QUOTE]

It mostly doesn't...but that's irrelevant. The test is easy enough(and the bar for passing so low) that even students who struggle to pass step 1 and step2 can usually easily pass step 3.

Keep in mind most people actually study significantly for those tests(especially step 1) whereas virtually nobody studies for step 3. Thus if one actually does study a bit/prepare for step3, they should expect a nice increase in their score from step1/2....

 

[JGimpel]

In your first year of residency, you are an intern, just like any other first year. Your rotations are through a breadth of specialties with the addition of some specific to your program. A TRI will have a larger range of specialties that he will rotate through since he needs to pick a field to transition into. If you can pimp UWorld for a few months while working a part-time job, take the test early, especially if you've had programs with the steps in the past. The questions on the COMLEX bear little to the real world and seem to be a rehash of the level 2 COMLEX, but that's only my opinion.

Get as much advice from people that know you well and have a background in medicine and make an educated decision with the input they give you. If you study for this exam as hard as for level 2, you're definitely bound to pass it and I wish you the best of luck on it.

 

[Cherry Hill]

Just a forewarning for anyone considering this psychiatry residency... the program director fired 2 of 4 residents in the second year after starting the program for fishy reasons. During that year, a psychopharm resident was also let go. It is rumored that the PD actually fabricated a great deal of information in the firing of at least one of the psych residents and that the termination was overturned on appeal with that resident ultimately resigning. A lawsuit was threatened upon the overturning of the appeal (a lawsuit against the resident) if that person ever spoke out against the program in any way. I have felt at odds about this kind of information... my residency experience was AMA and not at all a nightmare... but I think incoming residents should know that 50% of the first classes of residents were terminated. Things like this are not a fluke. They are important to know when accepting a 4 year contract and expecting stability within the program. Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[notdeadyet]

Just a forewarning for anyone considering this psychiatry residency... the program director fired 2 of 4 residents in the second year after starting the program for fishy reasons. During that year, a psychopharm resident was also let go. It is rumored that the PD actually fabricated a great deal of information in the firing of at least one of the psych residents and that the termination was overturned on appeal with that resident ultimately resigning. A lawsuit was threatened upon the overturning of the appeal (a lawsuit against the resident) if that person ever spoke out against the program in any way. I have felt at odds about this kind of information... my residency experience was AMA and not at all a nightmare... but I think incoming residents should know that 50% of the first classes of residents were terminated. Things like this are not a fluke. They are important to know when accepting a 4 year contract and expecting stability within the program. Good luck in your endeavors.

Cross posting is violation of TOS at SDN...

 

[sunshine1160]

I was interested in finding out some more info about AOA Psychiatry positions and didn't want to start a whole new thread. I know this is a few years old, but I thought I'd just post on here in case anyone who is browsing might chime in to help me.

I am looking for an AOA Residency primarily that is on the lighter load when it comes to call schedule as I have children and am not a particularly competitive candidate for most ACGME programs. I was also looking for one that is not malignant and is well regarded in terms of training. I want to be a community Psychiatrist and do not intend on completing a fellowship. I've heard some horrific stories from some of my friends about some AOA programs, but I feel given my circumstances my best bet is to apply in AOA.

I have heard some Florida programs are nice, any tips guys? Thanks

 

[koikisi]

I would advise staying away from AOA Psychiatry spots, I have seen some and have my friends in some, it's too fishy to consider in my opinion

 

[flight24]

I heard some people are happy with AOA spots, but honestly I don't know any specifics. Wish there were more information out there regarding AOA psych spots like there are for ACGME locations, but it's understandable given most people dont go AOA

 

[Dharma]

I hope you decided to apply ACGME. There are many programs out there. AOA psych sounds shaky to me (and this is coming from a DO student).

I understand not wanting to be destroyed during residency and steering clear of malignancy, but don't look for light work loads. We only have 4 years of training with supervision until we're out on our own. Most psych programs will meet the first requirement of not eating up its trainees. That said, the only AOA program I have experience with does not... meet that requirement.