AOA vs. Step 1 who wins?

[fatsal]

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Based on your experience with attendings in various competitive programs, what is more important a high Step I, II score or AOA status?

 

[dry dre]

Based on your experience with attendings in various competitive programs, what is more important a high Step I, II score or AOA status?

Step 1, without a doubt. This being said, there are select programs that only interview AOA members.

Getting AOA is often political as much as performance based. At the same time, some schools don't have an AOA chapter.

You didn't include year 3/clinical performance (which often correlates with AOA). I think Step 1 > Clinical > AOA is a general manner in which apps are screened for competative specialties.

With respect to competative specialties, I think the death sentence combo is to have a high Step 1 score and simply passing/no honors in the clinical rotations (read as an inability to work at a high level, or as a tendency to skate once the Step 1 score was achieved). AOA always helps.

 

[asianpride]

What is AOA?

sorry for stupid question. some sorta honor society? my med school does not have this.

thanks

 

[Jaded Soul]

What is AOA?

sorry for stupid question. some sorta honor society? my med school does not have this.

thanks

AOA in this context is Alpha Omega Alpha, the medical school honor society. You can find more information by searching this site or by using Google.

In screening applicants and deciding who to interview, I've been told that Step 1 and and AOA are both very important. I don't know which one is more important since they are not mutually exclusive. Someone who is AOA will tend to have a high Step 1 score, and someone with a high Step 1 score will tend to be an AOA member.

 

[pikachu]

What is AOA?

sorry for stupid question. some sorta honor society? my med school does not have this.

thanks

This makes me question the whole AOA thing in terms of residency applications. The PD's are looking for standard ways to compare one applicant against another, hence the emphasis on step 1. The AOA criteria vary from school to school and since some schools don't even have it, it is not the best way to compare students. all fourth years have, presumably, taken step 1.

 

[fatsal]

Step 1, without a doubt. This being said, there are select programs that only interview AOA members.

Getting AOA is often political as much as performance based. At the same time, some schools don't have an AOA chapter.

You didn't include year 3/clinical performance (which often correlates with AOA). I think Step 1 > Clinical > AOA is a general manner in which apps are screened for competative specialties.

With respect to competative specialties, I think the death sentence combo is to have a high Step 1 score and simply passing/no honors in the clinical rotations (read as an inability to work at a high level, or as a tendency to skate once the Step 1 score was achieved). AOA always helps.

By select programs are you talking about hospitals like Hopkins or fields of medicine like radiology?

 

[ears]

By select programs are you talking about hospitals like Hopkins or fields of medicine like radiology?

Um, both. That is, you might hear that the surgery department at University Medical Center takes only AOA. But mostly, such rumors are BS. Apply if you're interested. It's not like they come to your house to laugh in your face.

One interesting thing... the software the programs use to download and manage applicant data has a bunch of filters and sorting tools, and some of the popular ones are sorting by Step 1 score and AOA status. That sort of encourages programs to perceive them as being objective. (Though AOA certainly isn't, and Step 1 score has been repeatedly demonstrated to be poor predictor of resident performance; anyone have the citation?)

Both look good on an application; one says you're smart, and test well. One says (depending on your school's election criteria) that you do well in the hospital and are a leader.

You'd like both. But people get into very competitive residency programs without AOA and so-so board scores. Maybe they have some impressive life experience and a scintillating personality; who knows what catches a program's eye? Most programs are going to look at a much bigger picture than these two aspects.

Good luck.

 

[GopherBrain]

Who wins? The guy that interviews the best.

 

[ortho2003]

Who wins? The guy that interviews the best.

depends on who you ask. I have talked with two PDs in ortho who said the AOA is the best predictor of performance in residency because it generally reflects on how you performed in your clinical experience, but these guys also said that step I is the best predictor of passing boards, which is very important to every program. In and ideal situation, you want to have both, but it is hard to say which is most important.

 

[fireflyrxn]

Step 1 score has been repeatedly demonstrated to be poor predictor of resident performance; anyone have the citation

The American Journal of Surgery 188 (2004) 161?164.
What predicts surgical internship performance?

Background: Variables associated with postgraduate year 1 (PGY-l) performance in surgical training have not been fully defined.
Methods: Mean composite PGY-l evaluation scores were calculated from responses to questionnaires mailed to surgical program directors
of 87 surgical graduates from 1997 to 2001. We analyzed evaluation scores for associations with sex, surgical specialty choice, United States
Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) step 1 and step 2 scores, Alpha Omega Alpha (AOA) election, and third-year clerkships? grade
point average (GPA).
Results: There were significant first-order associations between PGY-l performance evaluation score and each of USMLE step 2 score and
GPA. In a multiple linear regression model that included sex, surgical specialty choice, USMLE step l and step 2 scores, AOA, and GPA,
USMLE step 2 score was the only significant predictor of PGY-l performance.
Conclusions: Multiinstitutional studies are warranted to determine the predictive value of USMLE step 2 scores in residency performance
beyond PGY-l and to identify other predictors of surgical PGY-l performance.

 

[supervenience]

how do other schools determine AOA? at my school, it is based predominantly on second year grades, with clinical grades used only as tie-breaker (which happens every year 🙄 ) do other schools base the award mostly on clinical grades? i think this would be a better way of doing things and wonder if that's how it is elsewhere.

 

[tsj]

Based on your experience with attendings in various competitive programs, what is more important a high Step I, II score or AOA status?

They basically go hand in hand, especially "junior AOA". If you have a 260 or step 1 chances are you are AOA also. I was.

 

[njbmd]

Based on your experience with attendings in various competitive programs, what is more important a high Step I, II score or AOA status?

Hi there,
I would answer your question by saying that your Step I/II scores are more important than AOA because not every medical school has a chapter of AOA. While AOA is a great thing to have, there are far more people who have excellent grades and high USMLE scores that may not be inducted into AOA until fourth year or who attend schools that do not have a chapter.

Good luck!
njbmd 🙂

 

[daelroy]

Step I and II scores. People with high board scores and low GPA's/class rank can still get interviews at many of the top places. Sure a few programs may require both. But I have never heard of a program that took someone with low board scores if they were AOA or ranked high. You don't see people who are AOA or top 10% in their class get interviews if they have weak board scores. Not every school has a chapter of AOA. DO schools have no chapter of AOA. The reason for this is the boards are the only fair way to compare people accross the board.

If you have a 250 + on Step I regardless of your class rank, you are almost guaranteed an interview. Maybe places like MGH and Brigham will make the exception but most places will bend over backwards to interview you if you have over a 250+ Being top 10% of your class assures nothing if your board scores are weak.

 

[friendlyfriend]

I just wanted to reiterate the point that AOA at one school is different than AOA at another school secondary to differing election criteria and competitiveness level of their respective student bodies.