APA & Grad Students Voting

[DynamicDidactic]

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APA is currently voting on allowing graduate students to vote. Currently, graduate students do not have voting privileges.

How do you all think this would change the APA?

 

[deleted343839]

How do you all think this would change the APA?

Probably not a whole lot in the big scheme of things. But it will not be an improvement IMO.

Are there any other major professional organizations that do this, I wonder? It strikes me as odd that people who have not yet entered the profession would have a say in how the profession organizes and governs itself.

 

[WisNeuro]

Probably not a whole lot in the big scheme of things. But it will not be an improvement IMO.

Are there any other major professional organizations that do this, I wonder? It strikes me as odd that people who have not yet entered the profession would have a say in how the profession organizes and governs itself.

I agree, grad students are typically fairly ignorant (developmentally appropriate) to many things that affect us at a national level (reimbursement, privileging, etc). I'd rather leave the vote to those who have at least some experience working independently. Students can serve as contributors in an advisory role in areas they have a lot of experience in, such as training issues, but I believe that it should be in an advisory role rather than full voting rights.

 

[deleted1003601]

Hi there, ignorant grad student here! I'm almost afraid to say something or take a position on this as a current grad student. I can see Wise's point, but at the same time, I look at the similarities with allowing people ages 18 and over to vote. Granted, there is an age requirement, however, I don't know of many 18, 19, 20-year-olds that know enough about politics, geopolitics, economics, etc. that would allow them to be anywhere near competent to vote for propositions or elect leaders to speak on our behalf. In fact, I would almost venture to say that being an 18 year old and having the ability to vote for president is probably as big as it gets; it's the world's stage. Heck, even I can admit that at 31, I could stand to learn more about current events, controversies and policies that affect me, my neighbors, state and country, but I'm still allowed the opportunity to cast a vote. It's a tricky topic to say the least, however, I think that by allowing grad students to vote, we are further socializing our future psychologists to the profession, just as Americans were initially socialized to the idea of democracy which was in stark contrast to the monarchies many came from. I don't think this process is going to be perfect, and I am sure there will be students who vote on things that they will be ignorant of, but I think that's how APA as an organization and grad students evolve together. Just my two cents.

 

[GradStudent2020]

As a field we are under-involved and under-educated in policy, legislation, etc. as compared to other professional fields. Maybe there’s an opportunity here to shift that starting with individuals at the grad school level.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'd be up for a system similar to our state association, in that representatives are nominated and run for council seats, and council members are the voting members for policy decisions. Plenty of ways to get involved in policy and legislation education, not sure if this specific issue would move the needle much outside of a very small minority of people who are already engaged in such.

 

[deleted1003601]

I'd be up for a system similar to our state association, in that representatives are nominated and run for council seats, and council members are the voting members for policy decisions. Plenty of ways to get involved in policy and legislation education, not sure if this specific issue would move the needle much outside of a very small minority of people who are already engaged in such.

That actually sounds feasible. They would have to campaign, example their competency to voters who elect them to council seats. In turn, they would cast votes on behalf of grad students. I held a similar position in my university as the student representative to the academic board. The student body elected me to represent their interests on the academic board and I would cast my vote and make my opinions accordingly that affected curriculum, university functioning, admissions, etc.

 

[Ollie123]

Do we know the exact breakdown of membership? A half-assed google search led me to believe there are ~120,000 APA members and ~60,000 APAGS members. I don't know if the APA membership numbers include students (APAGS) and those numbers sound high to me anyways, but I imagine this is out there somewhere.

If students do make up 1/2 to 1/3 of members, this is very significant even if many of them choose not to vote. I'm not sure if its good or bad. Truthfully, I had kind of written APA off long ago so its not something I guess its tough to have strong feelings one way or another?

 

[jdawg2017]

Ignorant grad student here too (and I admit I don't know a ton about issues that are developmentally out of my current training scope). However, as constituents of our future profession, I may be biased but I feel like we have the right to select at least some governance to represent trainees as the future of the field.

Maybe not full blown voting membership, but unsure how to strike a nuanced balance on this. Will be interesting to see how things shake out.

 

[psych.meout]

Alternate proposal, unions for grad students.

 

[deleted343839]

Alternate proposal, unions for grad students.

That exists in some institutions, no?

 

[Justanothergrad]

I'm concerned that grad students having votes may translate into a ton of power into folks who don't know (as was said earlier, this is developmentally appropriately) some key and basic aspects of process and procedure for a variety of issues. I mean, should a first semester grad student have any more say/developed opinions about the field than a senior in college who took a few psych courses?

That exists in some institutions, no?

yeh, unfortunatley banned at others.

I'd be up for a system similar to our state association, in that representatives are nominated and run for council seats, and council members are the voting members for policy decisions. Plenty of ways to get involved in policy and legislation education, not sure if this specific issue would move the needle much outside of a very small minority of people who are already engaged in such.

This is probably the best way to go about it.

 

[WisNeuro]

This is probably the best way to go about it. I'm concerned that grad students having votes may translate into a ton of power into folks who don't know (as you said, developmentally appropriately) some key and basic aspects of process and procedure for a variety of issues.

Yeah, I am also worried about using resources for advocacy of certain issues at the expense of money and resources for more important issues long-term. Generally speaking, we need to have our focus in reimbursement and coding issues at the national advocacy level. I could easily see that shifted to other avenues if a significant voting power change took place towards graduate students, who do not see those issues on a day to day basis and may choose to want to have the organization move into more social matters.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Yeah, I am also worried about using resources for advocacy of certain issues at the expense of money and resources for more important issues long-term. Generally speaking, we need to have our focus in reimbursement and coding issues at the national advocacy level. I could easily see that shifted to other avenues if a significant voting power change took place towards graduate students, who do not see those issues on a day to day basis and may choose to want to have the organization move into more social matters.

I think you highlight a problem in APA, everyone has their own pet issue to support. For me its science, cause I find APA to guild-like. Others have the exact opposite view and believe that APA is too science-y. Social justice seems to be already a big focus of APA (underscored by the campaigns of current and next president). Simply, no matter the issue the field is too divided on what is most important.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think you highlight a problem in APA, everyone has their own pet issue to support. For me its science, cause I find APA to guild-like. Others have the exact opposite view and believe that APA is too science-y. Social justice seems to be already a big focus of APA (underscored by the campaigns of current and next president). Simply, no matter the issue the field is too divided on what is most important.

I agree, we've moved beyond Puente, who focused a lot of time and energy on reimbursements, as the CMS coding changes were being discussed in his tenure. The national organization should really be focused on the pragmatic issues within the field, with niche and social justice issues left to divisions and special interest groups.

 

[jdawg2017]

Yeah, I am also worried about using resources for advocacy of certain issues at the expense of money and resources for more important issues long-term. Generally speaking, we need to have our focus in reimbursement and coding issues at the national advocacy level. I could easily see that shifted to other avenues if a significant voting power change took place towards graduate students, who do not see those issues on a day to day basis and may choose to want to have the organization move into more social matters.

As someone new to the APA (never attended an APA meeting), aren't many of our members not clinical or counseling psychologists, but rather fall into the domain of "research psychologists?" APA seems to have a heavy emphasis on the replicability of psychological science and the role of psychological science in society/policy. For non-clinical psychologists (sounds like an oxymoron, but I know people in social, IO etc. that call themselves psychologists), issues like billing are not things they care about, whereas clinical folks (including me, as a trainee) should care a lot about billing and insurance, as it more likely than not will affect our lives and professions in some way.

Perhaps students affiliated with certain divisions should have voting rights w/in those divisions. Is that not already the case? SCN 40 and 12 come to mind for me.

 

[WisNeuro]

As someone new to the APA (never attended an APA meeting), aren't many of our members not clinical or counseling psychologists, but rather fall into the domain of "research psychologists?" APA seems to have a heavy emphasis on the replicability of psychological science and the role of psychological science in society/policy. For non-clinical psychologists (sounds like an oxymoron, but I know people in social, IO etc. that call themselves psychologists), issues like billing are not things they care about, whereas clinical folks (including me, as a trainee) should care a lot about billing and insurance, as it more likely than not will affect our lives and professions in some way.

Perhaps students affiliated with certain divisions should have voting rights w/in those divisions. Is that not already the case? SCN 40 and 12 come to mind for me.

Last I heard, the academics were more likely to drift over to APS.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I wonder if practicing psychologists should have a separate professional organization entirely...? I know there's APAPO, but it's still under the umbrella of APA.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

As someone new to the APA (never attended an APA meeting), aren't many of our members not clinical or counseling psychologists, but rather fall into the domain of "research psychologists?"

Yes, some. I even know of APA members that have a purely academic degree that isn't Psychology (e.g., Human Development and Family Studies). But the vast majority of APA is in the clinical/counseling/school realm (I have no data to back this up but based on my observations).

APA seems to have a heavy emphasis on the replicability of psychological science and the role of psychological science in society/policy.

I do not think this is an APA issue but more of an academic issue (started and supported by academics and unrelated to APA as an organization). Frankly, I have seen little from the APA about the replicability movement.

 

[deleted343839]

As someone new to the APA (never attended an APA meeting), aren't many of our members not clinical or counseling psychologists, but rather fall into the domain of "research psychologists?" APA seems to have a heavy emphasis on the replicability of psychological science and the role of psychological science in society/policy. For non-clinical psychologists (sounds like an oxymoron, but I know people in social, IO etc. that call themselves psychologists), issues like billing are not things they care about, whereas clinical folks (including me, as a trainee) should care a lot about billing and insurance, as it more likely than not will affect our lives and professions in some way.

Perhaps students affiliated with certain divisions should have voting rights w/in those divisions. Is that not already the case? SCN 40 and 12 come to mind for me.

A breakdown of APA members' subfields is in this table: https://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/17-member-profiles/table-3.pdf. Notice the number of people who aren't classified into any field (one fourth of full members). I suspect most of the unclassified members are clinicians.

I haven't seen a lot from APA about replication, open science, etc. I've seen more emphasis from APS on these issues.

I have yet to hear a strong argument for why people who haven't met the minimum threshold for entry into the profession should be able to have a vote on actions that chiefly affect active members of the profession. What is the rationale for giving a first-year graduate student equivalent influence (arguably more, given lower member dues and minimal barriers to entry) as that of a full member? That doesn't make sense to me at all. I like the idea of APAGS having more representation on Council, but that's very different from extending voting privileges to all student members.

 

[deleted343839]

I wonder if practicing psychologists should have a separate professional organization entirely...? I know there's APAPO, but it's still under the umbrella of APA.

It seems sort of the opposite is happening with APAPO now defunct and APA having restructured to give the organization more teeth for lobbying and legislative advocacy.

About us

APA Services, Inc. is a 501(c)(6) companion organization to the American Psychological Association serving all members and advocating for psychology.

www.apaservices.org

 

[deleted1003601]

We should convene the council of 12

 

[Grenth]

We should convene the council of 12

APA to APAGS.

On a serious note I'm a current graduate student and I think we need a way to increase student participation in our professional organizations that doesn't rise to the level of full voting for example voting for delegates or something. I'm fairly involved in APA and serve as a student rep on a division so I'd like to see better representation all around.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

This has been an interesting thread. I feel like the consensus of this board is often the opposite of what APA does (though I could be wrong). We will see how this all shakes out.

 

[Spydra]

My first thought is it won't because no one cares what we think. My second thought is if I wanted to be involved in policy work I'd have chosen social work.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Apparently, to pass there needed to be 2/3 support. The finally tally fell short by 58 votes (out of 8000 votes).

I feel like the consensus of this board is often the opposite of what APA does

So, the consensus of this thread agreed with a minority of the voting population.

 

[deleted1003601]

Yeah,

Per a listserve email I received:

The Bylaws Amendment ballot results are provided below. Bylaws amendments must be approved by 2/3rds (66.67%) of those voting to pass. Therefore the Bylaws amendment did not pass.

Approved 5,566 votes (65.98%)
Not Approved 2,870 votes (34.02%)

Thus...it looks like more are in favor than not.

 

[MCParent]

It’s a nice thought I guess. I didn’t see anything from APAGS in terms of the infrastructure that would be needed to help grad students understand how insurance reimbursement, state boards, scope of practice, etc. work. Not that APA members are fully informed on a lot either, but I don’t see the problem the resolution solves.