APA versus APPIC match rate?

[futureapppsy2]

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This was recently posted on the Rehab Psych listserv, and I was shocked that apparently less than half of internship applicants received APA-accredited internships in 2010! The 20-25% unmatched rate is bad enough, but considering how many jobs and post-docs require or strongly prefer an APA internship, the 40% is just scary, IMO. Also, it's slightly surprising, considering most programs whose disclosure data I've looked at send all or a vast majority of their students to APA-accredited internships or nothing, with very few non-APA, APPIC placements. These were all PhD programs, though, so I'm wondering if APPIC internships are more utilized by freestanding professional school students...? Most APPIC sites probably offer quite solid training, but there's still the professional and job hurdles associated with a non-APA internship. I know the unmatched rate is frequently discussed (and is obviously a big issue), but I think the non-APA matches are also an issue that should be addressed, given the potential career limitations.

In 2010...
40% of internship applicants matched to APA-accredited programs
40% of internship applicants matched to non-APA-accredited programs
20% of internship applicants did not match

 

[PerhapsMaybeOk]

More fish, less stream, lots of swimming. Not news.

 

[wigflip]

Yes, this is alarming. To me, it reflects a few issues, but one major one is that our most powerful professional organization is losing power because of this disparity. We are normalizing bad training.

I could have sworn that I read elsewhere on sdn (don't recall the thread or poster--sorry) that there are some very good APPIC sites that simply can't afford APA accreditation. Perhaps a little harsh to assume that APPIC necessarily = bad training, at least in every case?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I could have sworn that I read elsewhere on sdn (don't recall the thread or poster--sorry) that there are some very good APPIC sites that simply can't afford APA accreditation. Perhaps a little harsh to assume that APPIC necessarily = bad training, at least in every case?

This is absolutely the case. The vast majority of internship sites function at a net loss. One of the big reasons why the VA offers so many training spots isn't just because they hope to hold on to their trainees, it is because they can absorb the financial hit of running an APA-acred. internship program.

 

[psyunknown]

I could have sworn that I read elsewhere on sdn (don't recall the thread or poster--sorry) that there are some very good APPIC sites that simply can't afford APA accreditation. Perhaps a little harsh to assume that APPIC necessarily = bad training, at least in every case?

Not only money but time, new sites need time to get their self study together to even apply for APA. So I think it is wrong to assume all APPIC only sites are bad.

To the original post, it is sad that most students will not obtain an internship that is APA which impacts their future employment. As a current applicant who is only applying to APA accredited programs this makes me a tad sad and nervous.

 

[wigflip]

I am not assuming that all APPIC sites are bad. I am assuming that more APPIC sites than APA sites are bad. Further, I am asserting that the increasing trend of attendance at non-APA sites diminishes our ability as a field to dictate minimum standards and thus diminishes the quality of our field.

Okay, good. And thanks for the clarification, T4C. If we can agree that some APPIC sites probably suck, and others are great yet lack APA accreditation for reasons related to budget etc., what would a prospective applicant look for in an APPIC site to know that it's going to provide adequate training?*

*Let's assume that an older applicant with family obligations applies to both APA and APPIC (locally) as a fallback. If I'm not mistaken, the PsyD program has 70% combined APA and APPIC match, which I know isn't too great. Have seen alums get internships at great places, as well as APPIC university counseling centers in my geographic area.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Not only money but time, new sites need time to get their self study together to even apply for APA. So I think it is wrong to assume all APPIC only sites are bad.

A few years ago I talked with to DCT at a conference about the associated cost of getting her internship APA-acred, and she said that it was over $100k once they factored in the amount of billable time lost doing the self-study, having to hire another clinical staff member (part-time), etc. That is a hard sell to your department chair when most clinical budgets are getting cut. I'm not sure if APA has numbers on the average cost of acred, but even $25,000 would be a hard sell in today's economic times.

I am not assuming that all APPIC sites are bad. I am assuming that more APPIC sites than APA sites are bad. Further, I am asserting that the increasing trend of attendance at non-APA sites diminishes our ability as a field to dictate minimum standards and thus diminishes the quality of our field.

It is scary how much you and I are agreeing on things these days. The problem with APPIC sites is that "APPIC-acred" is a misnomber because there isn't an acred. process to be an APPIC site, at least in the same sense as an APA-acred site.

I've been curious to see what the net gain/loss has been for sites in the past 5 years. I'd hazard to guess that while there has been a net gain in overall sites/spots, that there has been a net loss in the number of APA-acred sites and spots.

I think it is time for our own Flexnor Report, as the training variance has gotten out of hand.

 

[paramour]

Okay, good. And thanks for the clarification, T4C. If we can agree that some APPIC sites probably suck, and others are great yet lack APA accreditation for reasons related to budget etc., what would a prospective applicant look for in an APPIC site to know that it's going to provide adequate training?*

*Let's assume that an older applicant with family obligations applies to both APA and APPIC (locally) as a fallback. If I'm not mistaken, the PsyD program has 70% combined APA and APPIC match, which I know isn't too great. Have seen alums get internships at great places, as well as APPIC university counseling centers in my geographic area.

This assumes that your program allows you to go this route. In my program (and I know it's not the only one!), you're not graduating without an APA-accredited internship. End of story.

 

[wigflip]

This assumes that your program allows you to go this route. In my program (and I know it's not the only one!), you're not graduating without an APA-accredited internship. End of story.

Oh paramour, great point, but the doors to those kind of programs shut on my tired ass years ago. The PsyD program I'm considering applying to accepts APPIC for graduation--I've found their interns at APPIC university counseling centers in my area (online).*

Anyone care to chime in on what to look for in an APPIC internship? I suspect this kind of info is floating around here somewhere, but we're all here now, so if anyone cares to chime in...

*Why am I trying to figure all of this out if I'm not even in a PhD/PsyD program in clin psych yet? Because I don't want to make a colossal boo-boo given my age and geographic limitations.

 

[wigflip]

APPIC is not a certification of any sort, it just means they've entered the match.


What I would look for:

- number of APA board certified faculty
- organization of the internship (e.g., how much time in each rotation)
- Hours of supervision, what are the weekly individual and group supervision mandatory and optional hours?
- didactics, preferably weekly trainings, a course curricula. For example, at my internship, we had mini-courses throughout the year, along with static didactics that continued throughout the year. So, every week, I went to neuropathology rounds, group supervision, a behavioral neuro lecture, individual psychotherapy supervision, individual neuropsych supervision, and psychiatry grand rounds. Then, periodically, we had mini-courses on topics like ethics, dialectical behavioral therapy, etc . . . In addition, there were ample advertisements and options to attend lectures in other departments. We were also permitted to do a research rotation.
- office space, preferable individual
- billing support (you don't want to have to do your own billing)
- parking (if in a big city)
- health insurance
- paid vacation
- pay
- sick leave
- professional days (for conferences, interviewing for postdoc)
- library access

Wonderful--thank you very much, Jon (wow--I just typed "thank you very much, Hon"--twice!!).
Tremendously helpful.

 

[paramour]

Oh paramour, great point, but the doors to those kind of programs shut on my tired ass years ago. The PsyD program I'm considering applying to accepts APPIC for graduation--I've found their interns at APPIC university counseling centers in my area (online).*

Anyone care to chime in on what to look for in an APPIC internship? I suspect this kind of info is floating around here somewhere, but we're all here now, so if anyone cares to chime in...

*Why am I trying to figure all of this out if I'm not even in a PhD/PsyD program in clin psych yet? Because I don't want to make a colossal boo-boo given my age and geographic limitations.

I thought that was the case with your situation, wigflip, but y'never know what may happen in the future (or who else may happen to be skimming a thread and simply conclude that applying to any APPIC site is acceptable if one meets some other list of generated criteria--even if it has been repeated multiple times elsewhere that some folks must have an APA-accredited internship).

 

[wigflip]

I thought that was the case with your situation, wigflip, but y'never know what may happen in the future (or who else may happen to be skimming a thread and simply conclude that applying to any APPIC site is acceptable if one meets some other list of generated criteria--

I realized that's probably what your post meant after I posted back to you. But if I could do it all over again I'd definitely apply to APA funded uni-based programs. Alas!

y'never know what may happen in the future

that would be totally fantastic if I had a time machine and woke up one morning young, motivated, and generally not a cynical, crusty old crone!

 

[paramour]

that would be totally fantastic if I had a time machine and woke up one morning young, motivated, and generally not a cynical, crusty old crone!

That would be great indeed, wouldn't it?

 

[ClinicalABA]

Anyone care to chime in on what to look for in an APPIC internship?

Look to see that it meets the minimum licensure requirements for predoctoral internship the state(s) you might ever even consider working in. If it doesn't, don't consider it.

 

[wigflip]

Look to see that it meets the minimum licensure requirements for predoctoral internship the state(s) you might ever even consider working in. If it doesn't, don't consider it.

Thanks + Yikes! Horrifying to know that there are internships out there that will take your labor and fail to fulfill the minimum licensure requirements. Jeez.

 

[FadedC]

Well it's important to note that internship requirements have huge variation from state to state. Some states just require you to work under a licensed psychologist for a year (or in a school for us school psychologists) while others have a whole laundry list of requirements that your internship has to meet.

Thanks + Yikes! Horrifying to know that there are internships out there that will take your labor and fail to fulfill the minimum licensure requirements. Jeez.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

APPIC is not a certification of any sort, it just means they've entered the match.

Actually, I believe an APPIC "member" program does need to meet a minimum set of qualifications. I've looked at them before, but I don't recall very many specifics. There's a link to a word document on this page for those interested, though: http://www.appic.org/AboutAPPIC/JoiningAPPIC/Members.aspx

 

[ClinicalABA]

Well it's important to note that internship requirements have huge variation from state to state. Some states just require you to work under a licensed psychologist for a year (or in a school for us school psychologists) while others have a whole laundry list of requirements that your internship has to meet.

Here's a good resource: http://kspope.com/licensing/index.php
It's a list of links to websites of State and Provincial psychologist licensure boards, where you can find the requirements for each state/province.

 

[serotonin]

you know nothing, Jon Snow!

(jk, hope you get the reference 🙂)

anyway, interesting points here & I learned a lot- in my program I also don't think we were "allowed" to apply to non-APA accredited programs, so this was sort of a non-issue and not discussed. Weird- I would rather learn about all possibilities.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Well it's important to note that internship requirements have huge variation from state to state. Some states just require you to work under a licensed psychologist for a year (or in a school for us school psychologists) while others have a whole laundry list of requirements that your internship has to meet.

It behooves every student to research the licensure requirements of the state(s) in which they wish to practice. Some states can be very nitpicky about what they consider adequate training, while other states may be more lenient. The safest (obvious) route is APA-acred. everything.

When reviewing match rates in the Education and Outcomes section of each university program, make sure to look for the APA-acred. site match rate, and not just the overall match rate. I believe the national match rate is still hovering around 75%, though that means very little because it includes all internship sites. With the growing internship imbalance, many programs have struggled lately to match their students with APA-acred sites. Even though this information should be standardized, the data can sometimes not be as obvious to the reader.