APA's PROPOSED MODEL FOR SCHOOL PSYCHOLOGISTS - a.k.a. war between NASP and APA

[darreno27]

Incase some of you didn't know, the APA presented a model which proposed that to be called a school "psychologist," one MUST have a Ph. D (or doctorate).

http://www.nasponline.org/publications/cq/mocq377advoaction.aspx

The problem: 75% of school psychologists in the nation are educational specialists (sub-doctorate...inbetween masters and doctorate) and the school systems already have an extremely difficult time finding school psychs (specialists) to fill the district's voids.

The model presented means that all Educational Specialists can NOT essentially be "school psychologists" and work in a school distrcit....or be defined as mental health service providers without a Ph. D.. Of course, this sparked rage among school districts, specialists, and Ph. Ds of the school psychology field because of the severe implications this would cause the educationals systems all around the nation.

NASP (National Association of School Psychologists) and Division 16 of APA (School Psychology) strongly oppose this model which the APA presented due to the fact that school systems which essentially be in chaos and confusion (or more precisely, the children, students, and faculty who work in the educational system).

Reminds me of the time when the AMA proposed that MDs should be the only ones who can be called "doctors."

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[FadedC]

I'm not sure that I am reading it correctly, but I'm only seeing that it would stop the masters students from calling themselves school psychologists, not that it would stop them from working there and doing the same thing they always have. Is there something that I missed?

 

[PsyDr]

the term psychologist implies a doctorate.


i see no reason why this should not apply to school psychologists.


your argument: "The model presented means that all Educational Specialists can NOT essentially be "school psychologists" and work in a school distrcit (sic)....or be defined as mental health service providers without a Ph. D.."

is completely wrong.

1) there are many MA level providers in many different settings. LPCs can and do work in schools.

2) There are many mental health professionals. MA providers are considered mental health professionals.

 

[futureapppsy2]

A couple of things:
-EdS is not a Masters, nor is the work of School Psychs analogous to that of LPCs, LCSWs, or School Counselors.
-School Psychs can do assessment (that's the vast majority of the workload), so by calling them anything but psychologists, it would essentially take away their right do assessment in most states.

I think this is generally a good idea, and I assume there would be a period of "grandfathering" Specialist-level School Psychs in, just as there was when Clinical and Counseling Psych was restricted to PhD/PsyDs.

 

[PsyDr]

Futurepsych,

-you can call a 30-45 hour post undergrad degree whatever you want, but it is equivalent in coursework to an MA. 30-45 hours is not "in between" a PhD/PsyD and an MA. ACE can state whatever they want, but 30-45hrs of EdS is the same amount of coursework required for a 30-45hr MA.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Good point, but technically speaking, the EdS degree isn't an MA. Programs that offer MA's in School Psych also have to offer a CAS (certificate of advanced students), and several programs have students earn MA or MEd degrees enroute to the EdS degree.

Like I said, I support the idea of making a doctorate mandatory for school psych.

 

[darreno27]

In essence, the APA doesn't like the term "psychologist" being used by anyone other than a Ph. D, Psy. D, or Doctorate. This is understandable. They want to change the guidelines so this can happen.

However, taking the term "psychologist" out of the Ed. S degree creates confusion and turmoil within the branch by questioning whether an Ed. S degree can perform assessments...which is the main purpose of a school psych in a district. By not being called a "school psychologist" but instead something like psychoeducational facilitator, the question arises in "paper" if a "psychoeducational facilator" is licensed and qualified to perform psychological duties in assessment. Remember, school psychologists are NOT school counselors. They are very different fields.

"

During the last public comment period in 2007, more than 10,000 individuals and 19 state and national mental health
and education organizations wrote to APA in support of reinstating the school psychology exemption. These advocacy
efforts were partially successful in preventing the advancement of the originally proposed changes by APA as they are
now planning to revise their proposed MLA again permitting the use of title and practice by doctoral level school
psychologists only. If adopted by state legislatures, this change could potentially remove permission for the use of the
title “school psychologist” and restrict the practice of school psychology for all specialist-level school psychologists."

http://www.nasponline.org/standards/apamla.aspx. There are good information here. Check the "Brief Overview of the Model" link to get the big picture.


With there being approximately 2-5 school psychologists (Ed. S level) in every school district and still needing more, it would be difficult for schools to receive enough help from the limited number of Ph. D psychologists in most areas. This isn't a matter of just changing the wording as the APA suggest (remember, Division 16 of APA -school psychology- strongly opposes the general APA's actions in this). In NASP's terms, this is a matter of hurting the millions of students within the school districts by not providing sufficent care in assessments within a school district.​

 

[PsyDr]

futureappsy (sorry i got your username wrong last time):

it is incomprehensible to me that one would get an MA en route to an EdS. When does one get this? In the middle of the last semester of their coursework? After 40 hrs? 30hrs? IMO, this is simply a scheme to promote the idea that EdS is an "intermediate degree".


darren07,

1) This is not APA's problem. Psychologists want to define their profession, we can. Saying said definitions prevents people from practicing is no defense. Joe Sixpack can't call himself a psychologist with a GED.

2) What limit of psychologists? This year, 2400+ psychologists to be participated in match. year before was around 3000. Doesn 't seem too limited a number to me. Once upon a time, every district had real psychologists in house. Now, districts are attempting to use mid level providers and yell they are equal. Great money saving measure.

3) NASP/ACE could easily lobby their state legislature and get the title in their licensing board changed to "Educational Specialist". This would not be a big deal.

p.s., I use the phrase "real psychologists" in to denote adherence with the APA's current official definition of psychologist.

 

[darreno27]

The Ed. S degree entails approximately 60-74 credits of coursework and a 1200-1600 hour internship which takes place over a year (depends on the program). After 30-35 credits completed, an M.S. Ed. is awarded. Most students then reapply into the specialist program where it is another 30-40 credits to complete the coursework. After this, students must complete their internship at a school district while also completing their specialist thesis. One must attain a full M.S. degree before completing the 30-40 credits in the specialist program (again, matters on the state and school program).


Being calld an "educational specialist" would be the ideal route to take if any changes do take place...anything which allows them to work in the school districts. There may be enough Ph. Ds in certain disciplines, but not many would enjoy the limited schedule of constantly whipping out WISC-IVs day after day with a low pay salary. Virtually every school district in most states are already stuggling to find Ed. S grads to fill the voids in the special ed programs. It is true that the Ed. S degree saves the district money, but it may be necessary with the budget constraints which many schools face. Things have changed since the past in regards to socioeconomic factors. I don't see how a school district can hire 3-5 Ph. Ds to basically perform WISC-IV assessments for 15 years.

I have absolutely no problem taking the term "psychologist" out of the Ed. S degree. However, I don't want the specialists to be limited at what they perform at a school district. If this can be solved, then all the better for both sides of the spectrum. Again, models like this get proposed around every seven years for the APA, AMA and other professional organizations. Yet, many times the end result has no specific changes. Perhaps we are getting worked up on this for nothing.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Psychologist should be a fully-protected term, as there are too many loopholes and exceptions it is confusing to not only public but also between professionals.

 

[psychmama]

I'm a clinical student, but a number of my friends are in the school psyd program at my grad school. I've asked them why they want a Psyd when they could work in the schools with just the EdS. Their answers vary, but many have said that school districts tend to use their Psyd/Phds differently than they use the EdS school psychologists. Most of my school psych friends have said that their goal is to do more program development, consultation, and counseling -- and less assessment. Also, many of the school students getting their Psyd's (at least in my program) don't want to work in public school districts at all. So...it sounds that there is a need within the schools for the EdS level professional. I don't care if they call these folks psychologists or not, personally.🙂

 

[PsyDr]

derron,


Please cite evidence that supports EdS takes 70hrs

ACE and wikipedia and various curricula online indicate EdS degrees take 30-45 hrs.

Thanks

 

[futureapppsy2]

Just look at any EdS curriculum, really.

 

[darreno27]

Sorry for the confusion. The whole "process" of getting an Ed. S is a total of 60-75 credits of graduate coursework. The Ed. S degree coursework alone (before getting a masters) is between 30-45 credits. The 60-75 credit total is which the combined credits from the M.S. degree which Ed. S students must first get. Here is a basic Wisconsin and Minnesota Ed. S curriculum: http://www.uww.edu/gradstudies/schlpsych/studies.php

 

[sicologia]

As a doctoral candidate with both an M.A. and Ed.S., PsychDr, I can confirm that the Ed.S. degree is, in fact, a degree above the masters level and one degree below the doctoral level. Students finish their M.A. after 30-45 hrs. and typically a thesis and often re-enroll in the Ed.S. program for an additional 45 hrs. It is referred to as the "specialist" level. Google any Ed.S. in school psychology, view the curriculum, and see for yourself.

 

[strad48]

I think this is generally a good idea, and I assume there would be a period of "grandfathering" Specialist-level School Psychs in, just as there was when Clinical and Counseling Psych was restricted to PhD/PsyDs.

The latest draft of the MLA specifically states that Specialist-level School Psychs will not be grandfathered. This is not a starting-now-and-moving-forward proposal for those entering the profession. It will strip current and long-time practitioners of their professional titles, AND restrict the scope of practice for which school psychologists have the training, certification and experience. *This includes restrictions on the practice of doctoral level school psychologists who are licensed by state boards of education. Folks, this is not about who gets to use what title. The proposed changes profoundly impacts upon the practice of school psychology. NASP has written a point by point response to the proposed changes to the MLA. Read it, and you will (I hope) understand why the proposal is being met with sustained and robust opposition. http://www.nasponline.org/standards/mla_analysis_2009.pdf

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

That was a very well done document.

 

[futureapppsy2]

specifically states that Specialist-level School Psychs will not be grandfathered. This is not a starting-now-and-moving-forward proposal for those entering the profession. It will strip current and long-time practitioners of their professional titles, AND restrict the scope of practice for which school psychologists have the training, certification and experience. *This includes restrictions on the practice of doctoral level school psychologists who are licensed by state boards of education. Folks, this is not about who gets to use what title. The proposed changes profoundly impacts upon the practice of school psychology

Okay, this is just bizzare... Surely the APA realizes that his would result in a *huge* shortage of assessment and other services for children with disabilities and child in general in schools. The lack of grandfathering is especially odd given the fact that MA-level clinical psychologists were allowed to be "grandfathered in" (some such laws are still on the books) as full psychologists. And while there's a lot of overall lap between clinical/counseling and school psych, giving people with no specific training in school psych (including things like IDEA) the right to use the title just seems like poor policing, ironically.

 

[schoolpsych1]

As someone who will be applying to both next year, I wonder how this will effect the programs. When will there be a definitive answer? I have heard this argument before and one school told me that it will blow over as it has done before.
I know I read they were worried about how parents would understand a new title. I don't understand how the term was used to begin with if "psychologist" wasn't a fact, but that's water under the bridge now.
I guess I'll keep an ear out and see what happens...either way, I'm still applying to both EdS and PhD.

 

[FadedC]

The latest draft of the MLA specifically states that Specialist-level School Psychs will not be grandfathered. This is not a starting-now-and-moving-forward proposal for those entering the profession. It will strip current and long-time practitioners of their professional titles, AND restrict the scope of practice for which school psychologists have the training, certification and experience. *This includes restrictions on the practice of doctoral level school psychologists who are licensed by state boards of education. Folks, this is not about who gets to use what title. The proposed changes profoundly impacts upon the practice of school psychology. NASP has written a point by point response to the proposed changes to the MLA. Read it, and you will (I hope) understand why the proposal is being met with sustained and robust opposition. http://www.nasponline.org/standards/mla_analysis_2009.pdf

To the best of my understanding, most doctoral level school psychologists get their "regular" clinical license as well as their license to practice as a school psychologist. That's why a large percentage of them don't actually end up working in schools. Assuming this is correct, I don't think they would be strongly restricted by this new rule.

My thoughts are that if someone with a doctorate in school psychology is licensed to do regular clinical work, then it's not horribly unreasonable that a person with a doctorate in clinical psychology might be licensed to do some school work. In both cases it's unlikely that you would find employment unless you had the relevent experience.

But perhaps there is something I'm missing or that I am misunderstanding. This is a complicated issue and I can't claim to fully understand it yet.

 

[strad48]

@ Jon Snow:
You will get no argument from school psychologists about the harmful impact of the discrepancy methods of identifying students with learning disabilities. The data is unequivocal: students who are identified only after a measurable discrepancy has opened don't, or rarely catch up to grade level. Progress monitoring, using empirically-based interventions, and the Response to Intervention model of qualifying students for additional services are current best practices in addressing student needs, even if or as they are eventually tagged with a specific learning disorder. The challenge is getting the law, school districts down to individual classroom teachers on board. It's a huge paradigm shift, and progress is happening, but it's really slow.

Competent assessment and practice includes not only assembling appropriate test batteries to evaluate an individual student, but knowing when and where to refer a student for more in-depth and specialized assessment and services. It also includes assessing, evaluating and responding to classroom, instructional, environmental, family and social variables that affect a child's ability to be an effective student. It includes parent and teacher consultation and education and treatment integrity monitoring. Which means motivating/persuading/making it possible for teachers to carry out interventions as intended. Not all children who struggle in school either with academics or behavior have some kind of disability, but that can be an inconvenient fact for a teacher who has not been able to get or keep little Timmy on track, and would really like him to be in someone else's room.

Competent practice also includes knowing federal and state education law, knowing the politics the culture and the resources, including personnel resources and competencies of your school and school district, and knowing how to work within and around all the constraints on best practices to maximize outcomes. It also means knowing what you CAN'T assume about what teachers and educators know or are prepared to do. (THAT was an eye-opener!) Again @ Jon Snow and the statement that pediatric neuropsychs is what's really needed for competent assessment: I know you have specific instances in mind, and I am speaking in generalities, but in general, if only a "competent assessment" were all that was needed to make school work for those kiddos.

I have heard School Psychologists described as ones who knows more about psychology than educators, and more about education that psychologists. School Psychology really is a distinct profession that operates in both realms, but the APA is imposing changes in a manner that appears, to me anyway, to treat the specialization as if it were of no consequence. I suspect the APA knows exactly what it's doing with this proposed change to the MLA, and the bit about "protecting" the title of psychologist is simply a red herring.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I would favor a grandfathering method.

Yes. I support this overall, but it needs to be done gradually, imo.

 

[schoolpsych1]

If it is just the title ( I read on this site Texas already addressed this) would that be the only change? Why would training that was geared for school psychology be any different? They aren't going to get a huge number of PhD applicants wanting to work in schools and the level of training and cost, etc. isn't condusive to everyone.
Time will tell, but for now, I doubt it will effect the schools offering Specialist degrees.

 

[aagman01]

Yeah, but psychodiagnosticians also do alot of assessment without the title "psychologist" anywhere. So how will this change things?

 

[aagman01]

Responding to the below comment,

An educational specialist is generally a 69 credit program, not 30-45 hours. Most "educational specialist (Ed.S) degrees require a masters degree as part of the Ed.S degree.

Futurepsych,

-you can call a 30-45 hour post undergrad degree whatever you want, but it is equivalent in coursework to an MA. 30-45 hours is not "in between" a PhD/PsyD and an MA. ACE can state whatever they want, but 30-45hrs of EdS is the same amount of coursework required for a 30-45hr MA.

 

[aagman01]

People generally receive the M.A. after one year of study + summer (generally between 33 and 39 credits). They then complete another year of course work plus additional summer work. They generally have 60 credits in course work and externship completed in two calendar years (academic semesters + summers) and then complete a 1200 hour/6 credit internship in a school setting. Students receive the educational specialist with 66-69 credits (actually, officially, i think students just need 60 credits minimum, but most programs require in the upper 60s or even low 70s credit wise for the educational specialist). Students receive the educational specialist after 2 calendar years of study + internship are completed (generally a minimum of 3 years). So in that regard, it can be considered a mid-phd.

Secondly, using educational specialist is not a cheap way for schools to hire school psychologists. Salaries of educational specialists are often on par with or even better than doctoral level psychologist. For example, in the city of Milwaukee an educational specialist school psychologist starts with a salary of $50,000. A doctoral level school psych (APA licensed even) will start at $51,500. So not much cost savings with educational specialist over doctoral psych in the schools.

Now, on to your points:

(1) As a doctoral student in school psych myself, I will become a licensed psychologist. Nonetheless, there are a lot of challenges that the title change will impose. The exception for masters level/ed.s school psychs has been in existence for over 3 decades by APA - changing it would require alteration of state licensing and standards in all 50 states. There is no easy fix. In some states, the transition would be smoooth. Others, there could be many legal problems resulting from the name change. I suggest you look more fully into the situation before simply pronouncing your verdict.

(2) Clinical and counseling psychologists often have very limited experience with assessment. They have little experience with cognitive or psychoeducational assessment, classroom behavioral consultation, and the like. Many doctoral level psychs in clinical or counseling are NOT qualified to go right to work in the schools. Some are, and some aren't. So there are not just 3,000 licensed psychs available.

(3) again, the problem is not with NASP. It is with each individual state and how the acknowledge/license psychologist to work in the schools

futureappsy (sorry i got your username wrong last time):

it is incomprehensible to me that one would get an MA en route to an EdS. When does one get this? In the middle of the last semester of their coursework? After 40 hrs? 30hrs? IMO, this is simply a scheme to promote the idea that EdS is an "intermediate degree".


darren07,

1) This is not APA's problem. Psychologists want to define their profession, we can. Saying said definitions prevents people from practicing is no defense. Joe Sixpack can't call himself a psychologist with a GED.

2) What limit of psychologists? This year, 2400+ psychologists to be participated in match. year before was around 3000. Doesn 't seem too limited a number to me. Once upon a time, every district had real psychologists in house. Now, districts are attempting to use mid level providers and yell they are equal. Great money saving measure.

3) NASP/ACE could easily lobby their state legislature and get the title in their licensing board changed to "Educational Specialist". This would not be a big deal.

p.s., I use the phrase "real psychologists" in to denote adherence with the APA's current official definition of psychologist.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Yeah, but psychodiagnosticians also do alot of assessment without the title "psychologist" anywhere. So how will this change things?

As I understand it, psychodiagnosticians can only give assessments, not interpret them. School psychologists are trained to do both.

 

[futurepsydoc]

As I understand it, psychodiagnosticians can only give assessments, not interpret them. School psychologists are trained to do both.

As a clinical student, I am not privy to the political and professional issues within school psychology. Therefore, the following question may be quite naive. I apologize in advance to all SDN members.

What can PhD/PsyD/EdD level "school psychologists" do, within the educational system only, that MS/MA/EdS level "school psychologists" cannot?

I understand that Doctoral Level "school psycholgists" have extraordinary flexibility outside of the school system, permitting work in Academia/Teaching, Consulting, Testing, Clinical Practice, and general prestige. Though, after reading this thread, I am still unable to discern any disctinctions in purpose/demands/responsibilities that seperate the two groups of practitioners within the school system. Are there certain limits for Master's Level "school psychologists" with respect to testing? For example, is their perview specifically limited to the use and interpretation of tests like the WISC, WAIS, SB, and WCJ. Are doctoral level "school psycholists" then allowed to use, interpret, and intergrate the results of additional measures (e.g., SCID, ADIS, Brown ADD Scales, PAI, MMPI, Neuropsych Battery, etc.). Are only Doctoral Level "school psychologists" allowed to supervise?

If members from both side could indicate their answer, past/current training, and degree, that would be great. I would like to know if there is even consensus on these issues.

 

[aagman01]

John,

Sorry, I meant to only say counseling psychs. Modern assessment practices began in clinical psych! Certainly a rich tradition there in clinical for assessment.

I don't much about counseling psychology, but clinical psychology has a strong assessment history. As I said earlier, pediatric neuropsychology is the most appropriate assessment source for a competent eval of this sort (not considering the legal issues with school psych and education in how they define things).

I'm a clinical psychologist. All I do, clinically, is assessment. . .nothing else.



School psychs (masters level) seem to have lots of experience in the form of assessment, but not the function. Meaning, they lack the requisite theoretical knowledge to perform advanced assessments.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I agree 100% with JS.

To add a bit to his response....there is a large difference between being able to administer, score, and effectively interpret and integrate assessment measures. As JS alluded to in his post, the last part (interpretation and integration) is what I consider the major difference between doctorally-trained clinicians and everyone else.

In my clinical program I've had no less than 8 assessment courses, as this is a large portion of what we do as a profession. We were required to not only know how to effectively administer, score, interpret, and integrate....but also to understand the WHY to the WHAT we did. The statistics behind the measurements must be understood, otherwise we'd be assessment machines because we wouldn't know WHY we arrived at the scores.

As for neuropsych assessment.....the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know, and how much of a specialization it really is within the field. I can't fathom someone taking a course or two and calling themselves a neuropsychologist (or a school neuropsychologist)....though it happens quite frequently. It seems that a school neuropsych board would function more like a vanity board instead of a gatekeeper to the field. Clinical has its own problems with "vanity" neuropsych boards, so we definitely are not immune to these issues.

 

[aagman01]

Educational specialist have a least 5 assessment related courses (at least they do with ed.s students in my program), including one course specifically on cognitive assessment, one on academic assessment, one specifically on personality assessment, a course on learning disability assessment, an integrative assessment course. Many students will also use an elective course (they are in my program required to take one elective class in both special education and teacher education) to take an additoinal assessment course (most often in reading assessment). So, there is a good deal of assessment that even sub-doctoral level school psychs undertake.

As doctorates, we take advance courses in our areas of speciality/interest (at least at my program). I am focusing on gaining therapeutic skills and providing prevention services, so I am taking my additional courses (over and above the educational specialist) by taking additional classes in therapy, evidence-based interventions, etc. I will probably take one assessment class over and above what educational specialist take (on rorschacht/psychodynamic assessment techniques).

The requirements and expectations of doctoral level school psychs who work in the schools are basically exactly the same as the educational specialist. That is, I believe, in part due to how mundane the work so often unfortunately is within schools. There is little time to use advanced skills that doctoral level school psychs pick up over educational specialist (such as actual training in therapy or expanded training in consultation). Research and surveys have tried to discern the differences between educational specialist and doctorate level school psychs, but no significant differences have been found in practice or effectiveness (kinda similar to the lack of differences between master and doctoral level therapists in the provision of psychotherapy).

Futurepsychdoc, I personally started off in a masters program in school psych. I quickly learned how horrible work for school psychs actually can be (so often, school psychs simply perform tests to check ridicilious dicrepancy formulas for learning disability). I have my masters and am beginning my disseratation work for my phd in school psych. There is a lot of flexibility for doctoral level school psychs, which is why I am doing my phd. I personally plan/hope to work in community mental health clinic or hospital and do consultation/outreach work in schools. Hope this info is helpful!

Lastly, regarding this entire APA/NASP thing.....I think APA is just looking for a mechanism to expand the job opportunities of clinical and counseling psychs. In school psych, there is a shortage of psychs in the schools. So everyone (sub-doctorate and doctorate) in school psych who needs a job can find one. That is more difficult in counseling and clinical psych, especially with the cookie-cutter/Argosy/online programs popping out so many new graduates so often.

As a clinical student, I am not privy to the political and professional issues within school psychology. Therefore, the following question may be quite naive. I apologize in advance to all SDN members.

What can PhD/PsyD/EdD level "school psychologists" do, within the educational system only, that MS/MA/EdS level "school psychologists" cannot?

I understand that Doctoral Level "school psycholgists" have extraordinary flexibility outside of the school system, permitting work in Academia/Teaching, Consulting, Testing, Clinical Practice, and general prestige. Though, after reading this thread, I am still unable to discern any disctinctions in purpose/demands/responsibilities that seperate the two groups of practitioners within the school system. Are there certain limits for Master's Level "school psychologists" with respect to testing? For example, is their perview specifically limited to the use and interpretation of tests like the WISC, WAIS, SB, and WCJ. Are doctoral level "school psycholists" then allowed to use, interpret, and intergrate the results of additional measures (e.g., SCID, ADIS, Brown ADD Scales, PAI, MMPI, Neuropsych Battery, etc.). Are only Doctoral Level "school psychologists" allowed to supervise?

If members from both side could indicate their answer, past/current training, and degree, that would be great. I would like to know if there is even consensus on these issues.