APPIC hours and research-focused/research heavy internships?

[futureapppsy2]

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I noticed a lot of research-focused internships (e.g., Brown, WPI) don't list APPIC hour minimums. I know the APPIC party line is that number of hours is one of less important factors in the intern selection process, but does anyone know of a good way to get a ballpark figure of what numbers these sites may be looking for, or if they really just care if you've been doing some clinical work consistently (i.e., hours aren't used as screener and having low number won't keep you out)?

Thanks.

 

[InNae]

I think you could just use the stated minima from similar sites to get a ballpark. For example, the two sites you use as examples are Academy sites, so check the minima from other Academy sites. The applicant pools for those sites overlaps considerably, as will the amount of clinical training for a lot of those applicants. The internship programs all have a really good idea of the quality and quantity of clinical training in most doctoral programs. They aren't concerned if an applicant from a program with strong training (i.e., very solid clinical foundation) has fewer hours. As an example, I went to an Academy internship and when they listed the hour range of their incoming class, I was definitely the low end 🙂.

 

[psybee]

I head Brown is like 800 f2f, which surprised me. in general, research sites tend to be less demanding in terms of hours (since they expect to see those hrs pay off in your pubs section), 500 is should be fine

 

[Ollie123]

I know someone who matched to Brown with well under 800, so if that is a minimum it isn't a hard and fast one.

The most common one I've seen for research-y places is around 500 intervention hours. Some also have assessment minimums, but most do not (though I imagine this varies by track - someone applying to neuro without assessment experience is likely in trouble). From what I've heard, these sites generally care a great deal more about quality of training, that you have diverse experiences, etc.

I'll let you know for sure next year - I'll be applying almost exclusively to these type of sites as a 7th year who still won't be much beyond the minimums (but with a decent amount of diversity).

 

[cara susanna]

500 for therapy only?

 

[Ollie123]

According to the forms our DCT compiled - yes (just double-checked). True for UIC, Wisconsin, Duke, Harvard and a bundle of others. Of course, some were also well below that number.

I'm a bit doubtful I will hit that 500 mark - I have a lot of research-related assessments, but my intervention hours are definitely on the lighter end (especially for individual therapy since I've done tons of groups). I'm currently weighing the merits of picking up an extra therapy practica, but its just so tough to justify taking the time away from things that would actually help me with my career and not just internship.

 

[cara susanna]

I don't think I'll have that many, either, but I guess we'll see. Glad to hear that some were below it--did they post the standard deviation or the range? All I've ever been able to find is averages, which aren't very helpful.

 

[Ollie123]

Hah - per the bottom of the sheet "Range and mean are no longer available". I think APPIC stopped getting that data (or at least releasing it). Why, I couldn't tell you.

 

[InNae]

It is odd that the range is no longer listed. I interviewed at Brown, so my hours (just over 500) were sufficient for consideration.

 

[cara susanna]

InNae, would you mind sharing the breakdown? Was that 500 intervention only?

 

[InNae]

Unless I am mis-remembering (possible), yes, intervention only.

 

[neuronic]

I interviewed at Brown (neuro) last year with slightly over 500 F2F hours, which is combined assessment and interview, about 250 each. A lot of research heavy sites will likely interview you with similar hours if you have a strong research track record (pubs). However, remember that internship should be a clinical training year, and you will be a much more competitive applicant if you express clinical training interests. Also, I feel that research heavy applicants often get interviews at great sites (e.g., Brown), but the spots are limited and great applicants may not match due to lack of interviews at clinical heavy sites. I had a strong research background but matched at a VA site and could not be happier.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I interviewed at Brown (neuro) last year with slightly over 500 F2F hours, which is combined assessment and interview, about 250 each. A lot of research heavy sites will likely interview you with similar hours if you have a strong research track record (pubs). However, remember that internship should be a clinical training year, and you will be a much more competitive applicant if you express clinical training interests. Also, I feel that research heavy applicants often get interviews at great sites (e.g., Brown), but the spots are limited and great applicants may not match due to lack of interviews at clinical heavy sites. I had a strong research background but matched at a VA site and could not be happier.

Very good point. I didn't interview at any of the research-heavy sites outside of MUSC, but many people from my grad school do the rounds at some of the usual suspects (e.g., Brown, Yale, MUSC, UMiss Med Ctr), and they mentioned that they definitely peppered in a few less-traditional (in a research context) choices as well. The problem is that it's essentially going to be the same, or a very similar, cohort of students applying to those places, and unfortunately only so many of them can get in. This could potentially leave the rest (who may have, for example, been ranked 4th for 3 spots) out in the cold unless they hedged their bets, so to speak.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Probably an obvious question, I'm assuming that minimum hour counts (and those people are reporting here) refer to the actual hours counted on your APPIC app and not any "projected" hours that occur after your DCT verifies yours hours? So, this would be basically through October of the year you apply, right?

 

[InNae]

On second thought, having read neuronic's post above, it's quite likely that my hours were total F2F. We really were on the minimum end (by design) in my program.

Futureapppsy2, yes, only the hours completed/certified at the time of application. Additional info here (a pdf advice document from the Hofstra program): http://tinyurl.com/appichours

 

[cara susanna]

That makes me feel better if it's total hours, I think I can meet that by the time I apply.

 

[cara susanna]

Sorry to perform necromancy on this thread, but I'm checking out Brown's internship page and they say that they require 800 minimum contact hours. But people on here got interviews with 500? Contact hours are the same as face-to-face, right?

In case you couldn't tell, I'm having my bi-monthly hours freakout. 😉

 

[ResearchGirlie]

I had fewer hours and got an interview and know of others in a similar position.

eta: I think this is likely track specific. Certain tracks at Brown seems to be looking for people with very specific experiences and interests that very closely align with what they have to offer.

 

[cara susanna]

Thanks! I have another question, this time about MUSC. They say that they suggest "1200 minimum supervised practicum hours," is this including indirect activities as well? That number just seems so high to me!

I feel like I've asked this before, but I can't find it in the search history--sorry if I have.

 

[RGeller]

I had around 550 face to face hours (~350 were assessment) and I got interviews at several Academy sites: Brown, Boston Consortium, UIC, and the Minneapolis VA.

 

[ResearchGirlie]

I didn't apply there so I'm not sure, but I'd guess 1200 includes indirect activities. That's a lot of hours for a site that values research heavy applicants.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thanks! I have another question, this time about MUSC. They say that they suggest "1200 minimum supervised practicum hours," is this including indirect activities as well? That number just seems so high to me!

That's actually a good question. You're right in that 1200 seems a bit on the high end for a minimum requirement of direct-contact/face-to-face hours (particularly if it's non-neuro), so the best bet might be just to check with the contact person and see what he/she has to say. From what I remember, the folks at MUSC were really nice and were very timely in their responses.

 

[cara susanna]

Thanks. I will ask them but I want to wait until the Match is over--I'm sure they're busy enough without hearing from anxious future applicants.

I just found another place that said "400 practicum hours." Now that seems low to me if that includes indirect hours! I wish places would list breakdowns.

I had around 550 face to face hours (~350 were assessment) and I got interviews at several Academy sites: Brown, Boston Consortium, UIC, and the Minneapolis VA.

Thanks for the info! Did this include projected hours?

 

[rilo]

I had a little over 700 face to face hours (about 600 intervention, 100 assessment), not including projected hours, and I received interviews to a few Academy sites- Boston Consortium, Minneapolis VA, VA Maryland HCS/UM-Baltimore Consortium, and WPIC.

ETA: I also come from a clinical science program, for whatever that's worth.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

despite APPIC's best intentions there is still some messiness and inconsistencies in the requirements. Furthermore, APPIC tweaks things around every now and then. For example, this year a new rule about supplemental materials was put in place. That had a few sites scrambling.

This leads to another point, sites often just have one person handling all the application stuff and that is in their free time around their daily responsibilities. Often that means they do not have time to update their materials. For example, there was a major site in Chicago that changed their materials in late October, much to the chagrin of conscientious students that completed their materials well in advance of the November 1st deadline (fwiw, I wasn't one of those students).

 

[RGeller]

I had around 550 face to face hours (~350 were assessment) and I got interviews at several Academy sites: Brown, Boston Consortium, UIC, and the Minneapolis VA.

Nope, didn't include projected hours.

I remember many sites being incredibly unclear about whether they were referring to direct vs. indirect hours. It was frustrating, and I just decided to not focus too much on that when I was choosing my sites. The only places I think my number of hours may have hurt me were some VAs. Applied to 15 places, got 11 interviews, and 3/4 of the places I was rejected from were VAs.

Also, in some cases, what was stated didn't make sense to me. For example, the Boston Consortium explicitly asks for 400 intervention hours, and I didn't think many competitive, clinical science oriented neuro students would have 400 intervention hours. I applied anyway and got an interview. If it's a site you really like, I think it's worth the small cost to apply and time to write another cover letter.

 

[Member1928]

To be honest, with the academy or 'research heavy' sites I don't think anyone is going to throw out the application of a person who is otherwise a really good fit (based on having research that aligns with one or more faculty members and a successful track record of publications) because they don't have XX number of hours. If you have publications and a history of obtaining funding (loosely defined) you should be good to go. Now I'm not saying hours don't matter, but I would bet money that many of these sites will be more flexible for someone who is short on hours if they make up for it in other areas. I don't think the academy sites are sorting by hours. I suspect they are sorting out folks from FPPS and then looking at cover letters, CVs and Essay 4. Put your energy into getting an F31 and/or some solid publications and try not to get bogged down in the hours game.

 

[cara susanna]

I dunno, I have publications but they're not super related to the area I'd want to research on internship. Also, I don't have any funding (aside from a travel grant).

I should add that I have manuscripts either finished or in the works that are relevant, but obviously I can't say for sure that they'll get published.

 

[futureapppsy2]

To ask a question somewhat related to the original, do more clinically-oriented sites tend to place more weight on hours and on things like having a prac experience every year (vs. doing a "research year" before internship) than do research-heavy sites? In other words, if you plan your program and CV like a research-oriented applicant (relatively low number of prac hours, a research year), is it futile to apply to non-research-heavy sites, or sites that aren't at least moderately research-focused?

 

[Member6523]

To ask a question somewhat related to the original, do more clinically-oriented sites tend to place more weight on hours and on things like having a prac experience every year (vs. doing a "research year" before internship) than do research-heavy sites? In other words, if you plan your program and CV like a research-oriented applicant (relatively low number of prac hours, a research year), is it futile to apply to non-research-heavy sites, or sites that aren't at least moderately research-focused?

I think so. Applied to 15 sites, and all of the practice heavy sites (aka my backups) rejected me. Pretty surprising. But keep in mind no site would be happy if you started touting you wanted your internship year to be heavy on research. Save that talk for post-doc...internship is a clinical year, and even the clinical science sites expect mostly clinical work.

Brown, University of Chicago and the old UCLA NEAT track were maybe the only sites that really catered to research. Realistically, most sites I think know that 90-95% of interns would be hard pressed to produce novel research during a one-year internship that is primarily clinical delivery.