Applied to Orthopedic Surgery today is 11/7 and I have 0 interviews. Am I in trouble?

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rodmichael82

rodmichael82

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I think it's fairly obvious that you're in trouble. You've got a number of red flags and I think you may have misinterpreted the match outcome stats. COITM will show match probabilities based on certain stats, but only in isolation.

There's a chance you may pick up some interviews as time goes along, but now is definitely a time to be concerned. The real question is what to do about it. If it were me, I would start meeting with my mentors and see if they could help me and make some calls on my behalf to programs where I might have a shot. You may also want to consider interviewing for some prelim positions or lining up a research year. I would be proactive about doing something though.
 
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operaman said:
I think it's fairly obvious that you're in trouble. You've got a number of red flags and I think you may have misinterpreted the match outcome stats. COITM will show match probabilities based on certain stats, but only in isolation.

There's a chance you may pick up some interviews as time goes along, but now is definitely a time to be concerned. The real question is what to do about it. If it were me, I would start meeting with my mentors and see if they could help me and make some calls on my behalf to programs where I might have a shot. You may also want to consider interviewing for some prelim positions or lining up a research year. I would be proactive about doing something though.
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I spoke to my adviser and a bunch of other people and they keep telling me to be patient till end of November etc... and that it's still too early. It's November and I don't understand how it would still be too early.
 
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One "red flag" I see is your step 1 score. The average score for ortho in 2014 was 245. I don't know if 2015 is out yet, but your score can be considered a minus.
 
Well maybe Ortho notifies a bit later, but even so with 40 already out I would expect you'd have at least a couple.

The red flags I see:
1) high pass in an Ortho sub I.
2) high pass in surgery
3) mostly HP clinical grades
4) below average steps for the field
5) research may also be weak if that number above includes pre med work
6) based on clinical grades, letters may also be weak

The HP in the sub I is the biggest one obviously, especially in a field that's so insanely competitive and most people will have honors. My spidey sense seeing this sort of pattern is that this is someone who consistently puts forth a lackluster effort, does the bare minimum required, etc. Obviously this may be inaccurate, but it would be very easy to pass on this application in favor of others that have hit all the right notes.
 
operaman said:
My spidey sense seeing this sort of pattern is that this is someone who consistently puts forth a lackluster effort, does the bare minimum required, etc. Obviously this may be inaccurate, but it would be very easy to pass on this application in favor of others that have hit all the right notes.
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Yeah I understand what you're saying.
 
rodmichael82 said:
I spoke to my adviser and a bunch of other people and they keep telling me to be patient till end of November etc... and that it's still too early. It's November and I don't understand how it would still be too early.
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My home program sent out interview invites the week of thanksgiving last year and haven't sent them yet for this year. If your home program or aways haven't sent out invites yet, that might be why your adviser is telling you to be patient.
 
joker2400 said:
My home program sent out interview invites the week of thanksgiving last year and haven't sent them yet for this year. If your home program or aways haven't sent out invites yet, that might be why your adviser is telling you to be patient.
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Yeah none of them have. Everyone is telling me to wait till thanksgiving.
 
Good luck man, it's a tough process. Waiting is the worst when you feel like you have no control over your life.
 

Sheesh. Are High Passes really so detrimental to competitive fields like Ortho?

I'm an M1 and I'm shooting for HP's in all of my classes right now, and even that seems like a stretch of my efforts. So many people are just shooting for passing. The ones Honoring seem to all have prior experience with these classes. They all seem to be former med masters and adjunct professors.
 
PumpkinKing said:
Sheesh. Are High Passes really so detrimental to competitive fields like Ortho?

I'm an M1 and I'm shooting for HP's in all of my classes right now, and even that seems like a stretch of my efforts. So many people are just shooting for passing. The ones Honoring seem to all have prior experience with these classes. They all seem to be former med masters and adjunct professors.
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In my experience, if they know you want to go into the field, work hard, and bee cool, you get honors. They know a high pass is actually not that good, esp as theres no shelf usually, it means thanks but no thanks, and other programs can see that.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
HP in clinical rotations, particularly in your desired field. Very different than pre-clinical courses.

Also as mentioned the Sub-I HP. That's a big hurt.
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So isn't that inferring that most ortho candidates honor their sub-Is? It seems like a lot of schools and places just hand out honors to so many people. If more than not honor, then it seems like the expectations should be changed so that getting honors in it is actually atypical (which is the whole point of honors in my mind)
 
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PL198 said:
So isn't that inferring that most ortho candidates honor their sub-Is? It seems like a lot of schools and places just hand out honors to so many people. If more than not honor, then it seems like the expectations should be changed so that getting honors in it is actually atypical (which is the whole point of honors in my mind)
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Way i see it, its a warning flag to other schools that this person isnt great to work with. Let regular third year classes w shelf exams filter out the honors from hp and p.
 
PumpkinKing said:
Sheesh. Are High Passes really so detrimental to competitive fields like Ortho?

I'm an M1 and I'm shooting for HP's in all of my classes right now, and even that seems like a stretch of my efforts. So many people are just shooting for passing. The ones Honoring seem to all have prior experience with these classes. They all seem to be former med masters and adjunct professors.
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Clinical grades at most schools are a combination of evaluations from
Faculty and residents plus your shelf exam grade. The details of how each component is weighted will vary by school, but generally that's it. Honoring can be tough as shelf exams are hard and evals can be subjectively unfair, but most strong students tend to honor half or more of their core clerkships, especially those related to their chosen field. People will understand the occasional HP, especially if evals were strong and you just missed the honors cutoff on the shelf.

Sub I rotations do not have a shelf exam component and the entire grade is based on evaluations. Everyone grading sub-I's understands the importance of that particular grade for the field you're going in to, especially in ultra competitive fields. Giving someone a HP is not done lightly and probably followed a number of conversations between faculty and residents before such a grade was ultimately handed down.

If that were the only blemish on an otherwise stellar application, it would still be a big red flag and cost someone some interviews. It would also likely result in a phone call or two prior to ranking if the person got that far. Added to an app with many other HP grades and now it looks like part of a pattern. It may not be fair or even accurate, but in fields like Ortho, there are literally piles of applications from students with almost all clinical honors, 250+ boards, AOA, research, etc, so programs can afford to be picky.
 
giantswing said:
Way i see it, its a warning flag to other schools that this person isnt great to work with. Let regular third year classes w shelf exams filter out the honors from hp and p.
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not all schools do HP though
 
I received no honors during 3rd year and I have 4 ortho interviews so far. So it is possible to get interviews without a bunch of honors grades. I hope you pick up some interviews in the next couple of weeks.
 
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PCS50 said:
I received 1 Pass and 6 High passes during 3rd year and I have 4 ortho interviews so far. So it is possible to get interviews without a bunch of honors grades. I hope you pick up some interviews in the next couple of weeks.

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For any confused underclassmen reading this, I'm guessing you honored your Ortho sub-i's though, right?
 
operaman said:
For any confused underclassmen reading this, I'm guessing you honored your Ortho sub-i's though, right?
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I actually haven't received grades for all of them yet, but I know I have honored a couple of them.
 
What are these schools you guys go to where a "lackluster" performance/effort earns you a HP?

I mean, ****, the clerkship directors (at my school at least) have been very transparent that all evaluators are instructed that "pass" should be the most common grade they assign to us students.
 
Frazier said:
What are these schools you guys go to where a "lackluster" performance/effort earns you a HP?

I mean, ****, the clerkship directors (at my school at least) have been very transparent that all evaluators are instructed that "pass" should be the most common grade they assign to students.[/QUOTE]
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I don't think that's very common. especially the schools that have HP, where it seems like you have to really screw up to not get HP at least
 
kenjixshadow said:
How high was your step 1, like 240s+? If so, you're in much better position than OP and is why you're sitting with 4 interviews.
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Yeah my step 1 is above the charting outcomes average, so that most likely has helped me. There is still a possibility that the OP will get interviews and match, people do each year.
 
PCS50 said:
Yeah my step 1 is above the charting outcomes average, so that most likely has helped me. There is still a possibility that the OP will get interviews and match, people do each year.
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Hey man! It makes me happy to know that you have 4 interviews. Good work man you deserve it. Unfortunately my step 1 score is >5 points below the 2014 charting outcomes even though I was averaging 250s on my practice Step 1 (so that sucked). On Step 2 though I performed higher than the Ortho average (> 252). It's unfortunate that I have 0 interviews but I guess I'm getting what I deserved. This sucks big time. On all my Sub I's including the one in which I received a high pass I worked 100-120 hours a week and never complained so it's a little heart breaking to know I'm sitting at 0 interviews and don't even have 1.

For everyone else, at my school it's kind of difficult to get High Pass. Top 10 % get Honors, 11-50 % get High Pass and bottom 50 % get Pass.
A lot of times during 3rd year I was in that 10-20 % bracket that got High Pass. The same goes for my home institute Ortho Sub-I.
While I agree that my performance with just a bunch of high pass was a failure on my part it wasn't due to me being lackluster or not putting in the effort. I just failed or didn't deliver enough when I needed to succeed and I'll have to deal with that for the rest of my life.
 
rodmichael82 said:
Hey man! It makes me happy to know that you have 4 interviews. Good work man you deserve it. Unfortunately my step 1 score is >5 points below the 2014 charting outcomes even though I was averaging 250s on my practice Step 1 (so that sucked). On Step 2 though I performed higher than the Ortho average (> 252). It's unfortunate that I have 0 interviews but I guess I'm getting what I deserved. This sucks big time. On all my Sub I's including the one in which I received a high pass I worked 100-120 hours a week and never complained so it's a little heart breaking to know I'm sitting at 0 interviews and don't even have 1.

For everyone else, at my school it's kind of difficult to get High Pass. Top 10 % get Honors, 11-50 % get High Pass and bottom 50 % get Pass.
A lot of times during 3rd year I was in that 10-20 % bracket that got High Pass. The same goes for my home institute Ortho Sub-I.
While I agree that my performance with just a bunch of high pass was a failure on my part it wasn't due to me being lackluster or not putting in the effort. I just failed or didn't deliver enough when I needed to succeed and I'll have to deal with that for the rest of my life.
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My school grades similarly during 3rd year so I understand how it feels to work really hard get good shelf scores and still end up with HP. I hope some places give you a chance to interview and you end up making it.
 
How does everyone seem to know OP's stats? Where are they posted?

Anyway, how much do clinical grades even matter? We have P/F here and people regularly match into competitive specialties at competitive programs (ortho at mayo, plastics at MGH, urology at penn, etc)
 
OP should get ready for the worst... That scenario happened last year to someone I consider a mentor. He had only ortho 4 iis by he end of November and that was all he got ... He had good preclinical and clinical grades, research but no publications, excellent and unique ECs... His problem was his step 1 was in 230s and he is from a low tier school... He did not match and had to scramble for a preliminary spot... It seems like these competitive specialties value high step1/step2 scores, and maybe school ranking...
 
So my school is apparently VERY different from almost all of your schools for clinical years. Where I'm at our clinical grades are based 100% on you shelf exam and preceptor notes are just included as part of the MSPE. To honor you have to be in a certain percentile or higher nationally (I can't remember the bottom cutoff, but it is something like 80th percentile). How would this be considered/looked at for any field? Anyone else ever heard of this?
 
Stagg737 said:
So my school is apparently VERY different from almost all of your schools for clinical years. Where I'm at our clinical grades are based 100% on you shelf exam and preceptor notes are just included as part of the MSPE. To honor you have to be in a certain percentile or higher nationally (I can't remember the bottom cutoff, but it is something like 80th percentile). How would this be considered/looked at for any field? Anyone else ever heard of this?
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I've heard of it. Your school will include the rubric in your mspe but it's doubtful many people will scrutinize it closely. Your clinical grades will likely be viewed just like anyone else's, so make sure you dedicate adequate time and energy to shelf prep.

Remember that the big thing we all fixated on with the OP was his subi grade, a rotation in his own field and for which there is not a shelf exam at all.
 
Stagg737 said:
So my school is apparently VERY different from almost all of your schools for clinical years. Where I'm at our clinical grades are based 100% on you shelf exam and preceptor notes are just included as part of the MSPE. To honor you have to be in a certain percentile or higher nationally (I can't remember the bottom cutoff, but it is something like 80th percentile). How would this be considered/looked at for any field? Anyone else ever heard of this?
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That's easier because then you just have to do good on shelf. Don't have to worry about impressing anyone as long as you don't make bad impression
 
.
 
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Stagg737 said:
So my school is apparently VERY different from almost all of your schools for clinical years. Where I'm at our clinical grades are based 100% on you shelf exam and preceptor notes are just included as part of the MSPE. To honor you have to be in a certain percentile or higher nationally (I can't remember the bottom cutoff, but it is something like 80th percentile). How would this be considered/looked at for any field? Anyone else ever heard of this?
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That sounds so nice.
 
Frazier said:
What are these schools you guys go to where a "lackluster" performance/effort earns you a HP?

I mean, ****, the clerkship directors (at my school at least) have been very transparent that all evaluators are instructed that "pass" should be the most common grade they assign to us students.
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Preach.
 
PL198 said:
I don't think that's very common. especially the schools that have HP, where it seems like you have to really screw up to not get HP at least
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Lol I wish HP was our "default." Our grade breakdown ends up being pretty much like OP's, even though we don't have hard cutoffs for how many people get each grade.
 
Frazier said:
What are these schools you guys go to where a "lackluster" performance/effort earns you a HP?

I mean, ****, the clerkship directors (at my school at least) have been very transparent that all evaluators are instructed that "pass" should be the most common grade they assign to us students.
Click to expand...

Not that it matters since we have P/F here, but at least your evaluators are somewhat standardized.. Some attendings here give everyone 10/10 on everything just to be nice. Others give everyone 5-6/10 because they think a 10/10 is only for residents. So basically some people get screwed no matter how hard they work or how good they are.
 
seminoma said:
Not that it matters since we have P/F here, but at least your evaluators are somewhat standardized.. Some attendings here give everyone 10/10 on everything just to be nice. Others give everyone 5-6/10 because they think a 10/10 is only for residents. So basically some people get screwed no matter how hard they work or how good they are.
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They're not standardized. For the most part they're pretty good, but I've had a couple preceptors that say "I only give out 5 honors per year" or "I only give honors to 4th years and HP to stellar, above average 3rd years."
 
operaman said:
I've heard of it. Your school will include the rubric in your mspe but it's doubtful many people will scrutinize it closely. Your clinical grades will likely be viewed just like anyone else's, so make sure you dedicate adequate time and energy to shelf prep.

Remember that the big thing we all fixated on with the OP was his subi grade, a rotation in his own field and for which there is not a shelf exam at all.
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I didn't realize that there weren't shelf exams for certain sub-i's. Makes me curious as to how a student at my school would be graded for a rotation in one of those areas...
 
TwinsFan said:
Which sub-Is have a shelf exam?
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I think a point of confusion in this thread is that people keep talking about sub-Is and clerkships as if they are the same. See: the expressions of disbelief that getting Honors is expected. While clerkships may have a grade distribution, most evaluators are going to give their sub-I's Honors unless something major goes wrong.
 
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