Apply again next year...or not??

[psi123]

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Hi everybody,

I'd like to hear all of your opinions on a possible new path that I might take in applying to psych graduate school.

I'd like to get into a Psy.D program, but just until a couple months ago I only concentrated my school searches on those in California (where I've lived for most of my life, where my family/home/church is, and ultimately where I'd like to hold my career). But, as most of you probably know, there are unfortunately very few "good" grad schools in CA that offer the Psy.D. I initially planned to only apply to PGSP-Stanford, Alliant, and some Argosy campuses-- PGSP-Stanford being my no.1 choice.

A month or two ago though, I realized that I shouldn't focus so much on location and decided to check out schools outside of CA. I found many great schools that match my area of interest/theoretical orientation, have great faculty members, have impressive Internship Match rates, and is also located in a diverse community which I prefer. The problem is that most schools either require, leave as an option, or recommend the Advanced Psychology Subject GRE test. Since I had for the longest time only planned to apply to schools (mentioned above) that did not require the Subject Test, I never took them and now it's too late to register/study for the test.

Also, just fyi so that you can all realistically consider my situation for me: I attended UC Berkeley for undergrad, but due to a mistaken major choice (i.e. I did badly in my pre-med courses for my first two years at Berkeley), my overall GPA is a 3.2, my psych GPA is a 3.4 (I received mostly A's esp. in the areas that I'd like to concentrate on in grad school, but received a C in Biopsych-I blame it on my lack of motivation as I was still suffering from lack of confidence/motivation from doing so badly in my pre-med courses). On the GRE General, I got a 650 V and 620 Q; I have a year and a half of unpaid clinical experience, and a year of research experience. I currently am unemployed but am determined to find a paid clinical position for the next year.

My questions now are:
Should I only apply to PGSP-Stanford this year and don't bother spending money/time on Alliant/Argosy schools, and if I get rejected from PGSP-Stanford, take the Subject test next year and reapply to PGSP and apply to the other schools outside of CA that I wasn't able to this year?

Would getting a good score on the subject test compensate for my lower-than-average GPA?

Is this a smart move??

Thank you SO MUCH in advance, this forum has been so helpful already, I can't thank you enough!! I look forward to all of your responses, sorry it's so long!!

 

[amy203]

Are you sure it's too late to register? I just glanced at the website and it looks like you can still register late. Even if this isn't the case, I know some people have had success getting in off the wait list. It's worth a try.

Studying for the subject GRE isn't that big of a deal, especially since the majority of schools don't really care about your score. Just get above a 600 and you'll be fine. You could probably be ready in a week or two if your really pushed. I suppose a high score might make up for your GPA, but not nearly as much as your score for the general exam (which I know doesn't really make sense, but that's how schools treat it). If you check past threads, there are quite a few examples of people with very high scores who didn't think it made a bit of difference . I definitely wouldn't postpone taking it a year just so you can study really hard and get a really good score. It's just not that important.

Oh, and if it's optional, go ahead an apply!

My general advice is to only attend a non-funded program (especially one as expensive as PGSP) if you are quite certain you can't get in anywhere else. It looks like you have some weak areas in your app, but you can definitely work to overcome them. BTW, if you don't get in this year, you might consider retaking the general GRE. Your quant score is a bit low considering your GPA (a 620 would probably be OK for the verbal, but it's only a little above the 50th percentile for quant). I actually got the same score, but I had a good GPA and a very high verbal score to make up for it (and I still think it probably hurt me for some schools).

 

[socialcog]

I just registered for the Subject test last week for the November test. I know you can still register for it without it being a late registration.

I know it is probably the last thing you want to hear, but I think Amy is right about considering re-taking the GRE. The quanitative, I've heard, is often weighted more than the verbal section for these research focussed programs. I have a lower verbal score (still the 82nd percentile) but I have a score in the 700s in quantitative. I was told they really like the 700 scores.

Good luck!! California is beautiful!!

 

[JockNerd]

...a 620 would probably be OK for the verbal, but it's only a little above the 50th percentile for quant...

Sorry? I thought 620 was about 75th percentile. Quant percentile ranks are thrown off by comp sci and engineering majors who prettymuch have to score 800 anyway. I think 620 lands prettymuch well into "decent/good" territory for psych applicants. Not outstanding, but not prohibitive at all. Over 1250 combined is also slightly above average, I think.

I do think Amy has a very good point about funded programs. If that year of research experience was solid, and if you do decide to take another year you can spend time on things useful to the app and be competitive for funded programs. Hope you're at least looking at them!

If you know about and are comfortable with the costs associated with going to PGSP, I think your plan to just apply there and get in if you get in is a good one 👍 If you'd really be happy going there, good for you, and if not then you can certainly be competitive for next year. Good luck! 🙂

 

[amy203]

Sorry? I thought 620 was about 75th percentile. 🙂

Unfortunately, I am quite positive that it is right at, oh, the 52 percentile (unless I just took it at a really bad time😉). Also, it was well below the mean for almost every school I applied to.

I was told that the 50th percentile is about as low as you can go and still have a chance, which is completely unfair (darn engineering majors!) but it is what it is. If psi123 had a higher GPA, I'd be less concerned. BTW, I don't think the score is so low that psi123 should rush out and take it again this year (especially for PsyD programs, they might be less concerned). But if s/he doesn't have any luck this year, then it's something to work on for next time.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I do think Amy has a very good point about funded programs. If that year of research experience was solid, and if you do decide to take another year you can spend time on things useful to the app and be competitive for funded programs. Hope you're at least looking at them!

If you know about and are comfortable with the costs associated with going to PGSP, I think your plan to just apply there and get in if you get in is a good one 👍 If you'd really be happy going there, good for you, and if not then you can certainly be competitive for next year. Good luck! 🙂

If you want a funded PsyD program, 1250 is probably a bit low, I'd suggest getting at least 1300 or so. The enginerds definitely skew the quant, but you would be more competitive if you can crack 1300.

With a year of research, you are in the ballpark. You could always give the Subject GRE a whirl and see how you do. I can definitely see how you are on the fence. I would try and apply to a handful of quality places, and see how it goes. You can always re-apply next year, but you may surprise yourself and get in this year.

The new class at Rutgers averages 630/690 (V/Q) and 700 (Psych. GRE), and 3.71 gpa.......so you are a bit below the averages, but maybe your research and other experiences could nudge you up. I don't know the stats for Baylor and related programs, but from what I recall when I looked....they are going to be in that range. 1300's, 700, and 3.7+

http://gsappweb.rutgers.edu/academics/clinical/GRE_GPA.php

-t

 

[JockNerd]

Unfortunately, I am quite positive that it is right at, oh, the 52 percentile (unless I just took it at a really bad time😉). Also, it was well below the mean for almost every school I applied to.

\

Huh, right you are. 😉 I looked it up once to check my recollection before my first post and the random site I got was wrong... ETS' site says it's about 52nd. I rescind what I said before then.... yeah, the OP should think about rewriting that.

 

[psi123]

Thank you so much for all of the replies!!

Sorry, I must've read the dates wrong about the Subject Test registration deadlines, indeed I can still register and take the subject test this year! But, if I do take the test, this means that I only have a month to prepare for the test (I'm going to need to take the entire month for sure since I've been out of school for more than a year!). This also means though, since I was planning to have my application out to PGSP-Stanford by early November, I only have one month to also prepare my personal statement and other application documents (transcripts, etc). PGSP-Stanford reviews applications on a rolling basis so I'd really like to send mine in as early as possible.

I'm afraid if I study for both the subject test and work on my personal statement in the next month, both will result in less-than-average work, which I really don't want to do considering my low GPA and also my low quant score 🙁

Is the subject test score really that minor of a factor for our application? If I am going to take it I'd really like to at least score a 700 as some of you suggested, but I don't think I'll be able to do that in just one month especially considering the time I also need to spend on my personal statement.

 

[psi123]

The quanitative, I've heard, is often weighted more than the verbal section for these research focussed programs. I have a lower verbal score (still the 82nd percentile) but I have a score in the 700s in quantitative. I was told they really like the 700 scores.

I'm actually more interested in Psy.D programs that are more clinically-focused rather than the research focused--do the clinically-oriented programs also place more emphasis on the quantitative GRE scores than verbal scores?

Also, my 650 verbal score was at the 92nd percentile--I was really happy about this score, and of course bummed about my quant score (52nd percentile as was established already), but could my verbal score not compensate for my low quant- considering its high percentile?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

In some programs, there seems to be a slight shift away from the GREs as a hard and fast measure, though because clinical programs are competitive, they will still use it as a way to weed out the low people....since they have that luxury.

-t

 

[amy203]

I guess you might just want to focus on writing a fantastic personal statement (check out Graduate Admissions Essays by Donald Asher - it should have some good advice on how you can explain your change in major and GPA issues). I actually think you have a pretty good shot at getting in (PGSP is competitive, but not funded PhD competitive and you've had some really good experiences). However I also think you might be able to do better, especially with a higher GRE and more clinical experience.

Are you absolutely sure PGSP is your first choice? Meaning, if you applied to every school you're considering and you got into every single one, you'd still go to PGSP? It just seems a little risky to pick a program without learning more about others (it's amazing how much your opinion about a school can change after an interview). What if you got into Rutgers or Baylor or even a clinically oriented PhD program like Michigan or DePaul? Are you sure you're ready to rule all other programs out? To sum it up, I'm more worried about what will happen if you do get into to PGSP then if you don't! (and no offense to the PGSP folks - I'd say this to anyone applying to only one school, although I'd definitely be a bit less emphatic about a funded program).

 

[amy203]

Also, my 650 verbal score was at the 92nd percentile--I was really happy about this score, and of course bummed about my quant score (52nd percentile as was established already), but could my verbal score not compensate for my low quant- considering its high percentile?

Another "rule" you hear about the GRE is to shoot for at least a 600 on both and a 1300 overall - you're not quite there. Again, totally lame for those of us who are better at the verbal, sigh.

How did you do in stats? This is something you can bring up in your personal statement ("at least I'm good at the type of math I'll actually use in grad school"), especially if you've taken any advanced courses.

I think you're probably right about PsyD programs caring a little less about the quant score, but consider that you're probably competing against people with higher GPAs - you just don't want to give them an excuse to toss your app out of the pile. Again though, I'd worry about this next year if necessary.

 

[psi123]

I guess you might just want to focus on writing a fantastic personal statement (check out Graduate Admissions Essays by Donald Asher - it should have some good advice on how you can explain your change in major and GPA issues). I actually think you have a pretty good shot at getting in (PGSP is competitive, but not funded PhD competitive and you've had some really good experiences). However I also think you might be able to do better, especially with a higher GRE and more clinical experience.

Are you absolutely sure PGSP is your first choice? Meaning, if you applied to every school you're considering and you got into every single one, you'd still go to PGSP? It just seems a little risky to pick a program without learning more about others (it's amazing how much your opinion about a school can change after an interview). What if you got into Rutgers or Baylor or even a clinically oriented PhD program like Michigan or DePaul? Are you sure you're ready to rule all other programs out? To sum it up, I'm more worried about what will happen if you do get into to PGSP then if you don't! (and no offense to the PGSP folks - I'd say this to anyone applying to only one school, although I'd definitely be a bit less emphatic about a funded program).

First, thanks so much for saying that you think I have a chance at getting in!! Not that I'll quote you on it (esp if I don't make it! haha), but it made me happy nonetheless 🙂

But anyways, I might not have emphasized this enough in my previous posts, but location actually plays a pretty big role in my decisions. The fact that my family live in the area and that my church (my father being the head minister) is also in the area are two pretty huge factors that I just can't emphasize enough. I felt very lucky when I found PGSP-S especially after finding out that my interests, theoretical orientation, and location all very closely match my preferences. But because I understand how important it is to get into the best school possible, I still plan to apply to those schools such as Rutgers and U of Indianapolis etc next year in the case that I don't get in to PGSP-S this year(of course after taking and retaking 🙁 the subject and general GREs respectively). Also, I still plan to attend an open house at PGSP-S, which is where I plan to finalize my decision in keeping it my first choice or not.

Was or is the location of schools not as important in your decision-making?

 

[psi123]

I guess you might just want to focus on writing a fantastic personal statement (check out Graduate Admissions Essays by Donald Asher - it should have some good advice on how you can explain your change in major and GPA issues). I actually think you have a pretty good shot at getting in (PGSP is competitive, but not funded PhD competitive and you've had some really good experiences). However I also think you might be able to do better, especially with a higher GRE and more clinical experience.

Thank you so much for the tip on the personal statement!! It'll help me out so much!!

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I was really hung up on this too and actually considered going to PGSP because of the location. However, I eventually came to the conclusion that 4-5 years is NOT that long to be in a place you don't really want to be. So... here I am, doing a PhD in a city that I've always strongly disliked, and it's totally fine 'cause I know I'll be out of here before I know it. In fact, it gives me motivation to get started on research and do a good job so that I'm employable elsewhere.

There are churches everywhere... though admittedly this is one thing that isn't part of my life so I don't understand it as much as maybe some other people around here do.

 

[psi123]

I was really hung up on this too and actually considered going to PGSP because of the location. However, I eventually came to the conclusion that 4-5 years is NOT that long to be in a place you don't really want to be. So... here I am, doing a PhD in a city that I've always strongly disliked, and it's totally fine 'cause I know I'll be out of here before I know it. In fact, it gives me motivation to get started on research and do a good job so that I'm employable elsewhere.

There are churches everywhere... though admittedly this is one thing that isn't part of my life so I don't understand it as much as maybe some other people around here do.

I considered that also, that I can always return back to CA..but isn't it difficult to first, try to adjust everything you do in grad school so that you can meet the CA licensure requirements, and second, to begin networking/establishing relationships for future referrals/job partners/etc in CA when you attended school and finished your internship in another state? I may be wrong with the psych field, but in the medical field I've heard of so many stories about people ending up practicing where their medical school was located.

 

[paramour]

I considered that also, that I can always return back to CA..but isn't it difficult to first, try to adjust everything you do in grad school so that you can meet the CA licensure requirements, and second, to begin networking/establishing relationships for future referrals/job partners/etc in CA when you attended school and finished your internship in another state? I may be wrong with the psych field, but in the medical field I've heard of so many stories about people ending up practicing where their medical school was located.

You can easily check the state's licensure requirements while you are in grad school to verify that you end up with what is needed to go back & practice if so desired. I know plenty of medical doctors who are not practicing in the same state as they went to med school, and I know several psychologists who are not in the same state as they went to grad school.

G'luck~

 

[socialcog]

I guess you might just want to focus on writing a fantastic personal statement (check out Graduate Admissions Essays by Donald Asher - it should have some good advice on how you can explain your change in major and GPA issues). I actually think you have a pretty good shot at getting in (PGSP is competitive, but not funded PhD competitive and you've had some really good experiences). However I also think you might be able to do better, especially with a higher GRE and more clinical experience.

Are you absolutely sure PGSP is your first choice? Meaning, if you applied to every school you're considering and you got into every single one, you'd still go to PGSP? It just seems a little risky to pick a program without learning more about others (it's amazing how much your opinion about a school can change after an interview). What if you got into Rutgers or Baylor or even a clinically oriented PhD program like Michigan or DePaul? Are you sure you're ready to rule all other programs out? To sum it up, I'm more worried about what will happen if you do get into to PGSP then if you don't! (and no offense to the PGSP folks - I'd say this to anyone applying to only one school, although I'd definitely be a bit less emphatic about a funded program).

I was very surprised how comparatively reasonable DePaul's median admission numbers were last year.

 

[Ollie123]

I'd definitely caution anyone against too much restriction based on geography, so I think you made a good decision regarding that.

GREs are important, but not the end-all be-all. Usually they junk applications that don't meet their cutoff, but my understanding is that once you've passed the cutoff point, it becomes an incredibly minor factor.

I had extremely weak GREs for the schools I was applying to (top-tier research), but managed to secure a couple interviews and an acceptance at one fairly high on my list despite having a 1250 (and a 540 verbal! Ugg....don't know what went wrong that day).

I'd never recommend only applying to one school for one reason. That reason being that you have nothing to compare it to come interview time. This makes a BIG difference in terms of effectively judging which program is best for you.

PGSP is competitive, but its not THAT competitive (think acceptance rates are in the 20% range?) so its certainly a reasonable shot for any well-qualified candidate, whereas many programs are simply a crapshoot. That doesn't mean its EASY, but certainly easier.

Take the subjects, a month is plenty of time to study. I studied about 2 weeks after being out of school longer than you were and pretty much nailed them (think I was in the 93rd percentile or thereabouts). Its like a psych 101 exam. Lots of very general information, but nothing tricky and if you're good at multiple choice tests you should be fine. Send out applications to more places, and hopefully you'll at least have some interviews, which can help you figure out just whether PGSP should be your top choice.

 

[psi123]

Take the subjects, a month is plenty of time to study. I studied about 2 weeks after being out of school longer than you were and pretty much nailed them (think I was in the 93rd percentile or thereabouts). Its like a psych 101 exam. Lots of very general information, but nothing tricky and if you're good at multiple choice tests you should be fine. Send out applications to more places, and hopefully you'll at least have some interviews, which can help you figure out just whether PGSP should be your top choice.

If I do spend the next few weeks studying for the subject test though, I'm worried that I won't have enough time to prepare my personal statement and end up doing just a mediocre job on it, which I know a good subject score cannot make up for. The reason why I feel I wont have much time is because I want to send in my application to PGSP as early as early November since they review apps on a rolling basis. Do you suggest then, that I send in my apps at a later time like mid or late November then? Won't sending in apps late to a school that reviews on a rolling basis be disadvantageous for me?

 

[Ollie123]

It will be, sorry, didn't realize PGSP did rolling admissions (weird, never heard of a clinical program doing that).

Its all about time management, I studied and wrote my PSs at the same time while I was working 50-60 hour weeks, so its doable. Though admittedly, far from ideal🙂

Most deadlines will not be rolling and I think Dec. 15th is the most "common" deadline so you'll still have plenty of time to work on other applications once PGSPs is in.

 

[psi123]

I visited my professor from college, and he suggested that before I finalize anything on PGSP, I should try visiting the campus to really see if it's the right match for me. I went ahead and was able to schedule a personal tour for tomorrow!

With that said, I'd like to hear everyone's suggestions on what certain essential questions that I should ask the staff/faculty tomorrow. I have some questions already in mind but I was wondering if there were questions that some people forgot to ask when they visited schools but that they wish they were able to ask in retrospect. For example, is there some sneaky way to ask the staff/faculty there about an accurate reflection of how their students like the program? I feel that if I straightforwardly ask something like this, they would, of course, say that all students love the program.

Thank you so much for all of your help so far, I'm going to post this as a new thread, as well, just fyi, but I wanted to thank you all once again in advance and for all the help I've received so far. I really don't know what I'd do without this forum 😍

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Actually, I can sorta answer that for you. When I was considering PGSP I tracked down a lot of current and former students on Myspace and facebook, hoping to get their opinions. It was pretty much split half and half with people who said they had a great time (although most of them mentioned that it was fun because they partied a lot) and people who regretted the expense and their huge debt. One woman who now is employed in Arizona said it was fantastic and she had no trouble getting a job and she'd do it all over again. One woman said that under no circumstances would she ever go back (she left after 2 years because she was frustrated with the school not helping to prepare them for internship).

I realize that's probably not very helpful in making a decision one way or another, but that's all I've got. lol

 

[psi123]

Actually, I can sorta answer that for you. When I was considering PGSP I tracked down a lot of current and former students on Myspace and facebook, hoping to get their opinions. It was pretty much split half and half with people who said they had a great time (although most of them mentioned that it was fun because they partied a lot) and people who regretted the expense and their huge debt. One woman who now is employed in Arizona said it was fantastic and she had no trouble getting a job and she'd do it all over again. One woman said that under no circumstances would she ever go back (she left after 2 years because she was frustrated with the school not helping to prepare them for internship).

I realize that's probably not very helpful in making a decision one way or another, but that's all I've got. lol

Thanks so much, that's a really good tactic to use to gain information about schools! I'll try it myself and hope that I'll get some more favorable opinions too!! X-)

 

[amy203]

There have been a few forums on this site devoted to PGSP. You might want to do a search.

Make sure you ask about internship match rates, and also about how people manage to pay for their education (if this is an issue for you). Check to make sure people are finishing on time (4-6 years is usually about right, although it should maybe be less for a PsyD program). Also, PGSP is APA accredited now, right?

 

[psi123]

Thank you so much to all who've replied--you've all been such a great help!!

After visiting the campus today and talking to the director of admissions at PGSP, I learned that there were a few changes in the admission process that PGSP is implementing starting this year. The major changes (that affect me, at least) is that PGSP is now strongly recommending that applicants take the Subject Test, and also they are no longer reviewing apps on a rolling basis. So, that leaves me with both the time and opportunity to study and take the subject test, so I have time to work on my personal statement and also apply to more programs!! So many of you, if not all, suggested that I apply to more schools and now I'm really glad that I will be able to!! I still really like the PGSP program (esp after learning so much more about it today) and so it'll still remain my top choice, but now I'll be able to compare it to other schools and give myself some more options/chances.

Thanks so much again for all your help!! Also I'm going to post up all of the changes/updates to the program on a new post so that I can share all the info--the changes are pretty important to know and they're still in the process of updating their website. Thanks again!!!!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm glad they went to the traditional deadlines, it makes things easier....did they give a date for the deadline?

-t

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Well that's good news for you then, yay!

I fell absolutely in love with the Bay Area this summer when I was there and I hope that I can live there for at least a few years sometime in my life (although being Canadian it sort of throws a wrench in the plan).

If you're really sure that PGSP is your top choice (and it sounds like you are and you've looked for a lot of info about it) then good luck, and I hope you get in. Keep us posted.

 

[psi123]

I'm glad they went to the traditional deadlines, it makes things easier....did they give a date for the deadline?

-t

It's January 15th--this actually hasn't changed from before but now it's just not rolling admissions. I just posted all the changes and info that I gained today also under "Changes to the PGSP-Stanford Psy.D program" if you're interested! (Sorry didn't know how to link the thread here) and yes it does make things alot easier, I'm so glad I don't have to be pressured to send it in asap anymore!!

 

[psi123]

Well that's good news for you then, yay!

I fell absolutely in love with the Bay Area this summer when I was there and I hope that I can live there for at least a few years sometime in my life (although being Canadian it sort of throws a wrench in the plan).

If you're really sure that PGSP is your top choice (and it sounds like you are and you've looked for a lot of info about it) then good luck, and I hope you get in. Keep us posted.

I definitely will keep you posted, esp with all the help I've gotten, and most likely will continue to get until the whole process is over. Thanks so much again for all the support and guidance!! I wish I could hug you all!!! 😛 haha

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I just posted all the changes and info that I gained today also under "Changes to the PGSP-Stanford Psy.D program" if you're interested! (Sorry didn't know how to link the thread here)

For those interested, HERE is the thread.

-t

 

[razzled]

Back to the GRE thing for a minute...

Don't worry too too much. Although I did well in verbal and perfect in analytical, I think I was around the 55th percentile in math. I ended up getting into the program currently ranked second in the country. The GRE isn't everything! So try not to worry. Grades are a much better predictor of graduate success anyway.