Applying with Institutional Action MCAT 512 GPA 3.83

[baker8921]

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Chances/ school list help

• 3.83 cGPA
• 3.91 sGPA
• 512 MCAT (128/123(rip)/131/130)
• NY, White male
• Large public university undergrad, with attached medical school
• 140 hours volunteering at a pediatric urgent care
• 240 hours as a CPR instructor
• 8000 hours as an AEMT working close to full time while in school
• 225 hours as a clinical Research assistant with patient contact, no pubs or posters
• 50 hours as a union steward (leadership)
• No true shadowing but 32 hours as clinical observation in ER and 16 in OR for EMT where is worked closely with doctors
• 3000 hours as rock climbing instructor (worked my way up from instructor to Assistant manager)

IA in 2014, fall semester of freshman year. Is a closed case and neither the college nor I can discuss any details other than it was nonacademic violation of the student code of conduct which was disputed. I was able to complete my studies there but chose not to. Became EMT then AEMT and went back to school after finding my passion for medicine.

My school list is very conservative and way to big in my opinion because of the institutional action which I am not able to discuss as thoroughly as I would like to. Otherwise I like to think my application is fairly competitive for the schools on my tentative list.
MD:
University of Colorado
GW
Georgetown
Loyola of Chicago
University of Maryland
Tufts (family connection)
Central Michigan
Wayne State
University of Minnesota
Dartmouth
Albany Medical College
NYMC
SUNY Buffalo
Stony Brook
University of Toledo
Wright State
Drexel
Penn State
USC Columbia
USC Greenville
Virginia Commonwealth
Eastern Virginia Medical School
University of Cincinnati
University of Illinois
University of Kentucky
University of Louisville
West Virginia University
University of Vermont
DO:
LECOM
PCOM
Ohio University Heritage COM
NYIT COM
Rowan UCOM
Rocky Vista COM
Nova Southwestern University
Midwestern Chicago COM
University of New England COM
MSU OM (maybe)

Any help is greatly appreciated. Either removing schools or adding schools is welcomed.
Thanks!

 

[Faha]

You have far too many state public schools on your list that accept few non residents with no connection to the state. You could receive interviews from these schools on your list:
MD:
University of Colorado
GW
Georgetown
Loyola of Chicago
Tufts (family connection)
Wayne State
Dartmouth
Albany Medical College
NYMC
SUNY Buffalo
Stony Brook
Drexel
Penn State
Virginia Commonwealth
Eastern Virginia Medical School
University of Cincinnati
West Virginia University
University of Vermont
DO:
LECOM
PCOM
NYIT COM
Rowan UCOM
Rocky Vista COM
Nova Southwestern University
Midwestern Chicago COM
University of New England COM
You could add these schools
SUNY Upstate
SUNY Downstate
Hofstra
Temple
Jefferson
Quinnipiac
Oakland Beaumont
Medical College Wisconsin
Rosalind Franklin
St. Louis
Creighton
TCU-UNT

 

[baker8921]

You have far too many state public schools on your list that accept few non residents with no connection to the state. You could receive interviews from these schools on your list:
MD:
University of Colorado
GW
Georgetown
Loyola of Chicago
Tufts (family connection)
Wayne State
Dartmouth
Albany Medical College
NYMC
SUNY Buffalo
Stony Brook
Drexel
Penn State
Virginia Commonwealth
Eastern Virginia Medical School
University of Cincinnati
West Virginia University
University of Vermont
DO:
LECOM
PCOM
NYIT COM
Rowan UCOM
Rocky Vista COM
Nova Southwestern University
Midwestern Chicago COM
University of New England COM
You could add these schools
SUNY Upstate
SUNY Downstate
Hofstra
Temple
Jefferson
Quinnipiac
Oakland Beaumont
Medical College Wisconsin
Rosalind Franklin
St. Louis
Creighton
TCU-UNT

Thank you for the help!

 

[candbgirl]

So what are you going to,say on your app about the IA?

 

[baker8921]

So what are you going to,say on your app about the IA?

pretty much exactly what I said in the post. Unfortunately I cannot go into detail since it was considered resolved and if prompted the college will only say that it was a nonacademic violation of the student code of conduct which was disputed. I know this is a big red flag and I wish I could go into more detail on the apps but I am very limited in what I can say. I hope that the rest of my app/ it being 5 years ago will help overcome it.

 

[Seihai]

pretty much exactly what I said in the post. Unfortunately I cannot go into detail since it was considered resolved and if prompted the college will only say that it was a nonacademic violation of the student code of conduct which was disputed. I know this is a big red flag and I wish I could go into more detail on the apps but I am very limited in what I can say. I hope that the rest of my app/ it being 5 years ago will help overcome it.

Schools aren't going to be satisfied with the explanation that "you aren't allowed to discuss it" if you put only that on the application. They'll assume (rightfully or not) that you're intentionally trying to hide something. Just because your college won't clarify the details doesn't mean that schools won't expect you to tell them about it. Being vague hurts you far more than it helps you.

I can't see a reason why you wouldn't be able to discuss it unless you signed something akin to an NDA.

 

[baker8921]

Schools aren't going to be satisfied with the explanation that "you aren't allowed to discuss it" if you put only that on the application. They'll assume (rightfully or not) that you're intentionally trying to hide something. Just because your college won't clarify the details doesn't mean that schools won't expect you to tell them about it. Being vague hurts you far more than it helps you.

I can't see a reason why you wouldn't be able to discuss it unless you signed something akin to an NDA.

exactly that. A NDA, which makes it very difficult to say anything. From my understanding I am not even able to mention a NDA. So I'm very much stuck.

 

[candbgirl]

Please let us know what happens. If you want some advice maybe you should tag some of the ADCOMS that are on here.

 

[Seihai]

exactly that. A NDA, which makes it very difficult to say anything. From my understanding I am not even able to mention a NDA. So I'm very much stuck.

Go talk to your school/their legal department and figure out what you can and can't disclose. You may be best off retaining counsel to read the NDA with you as well to determine what you're allowed to disclose.

This will look pretty bad for you considering that schools will probably just assume you're hiding something arbitrarily and screen you out if they see a vague statement regarding an academic violation.

@Goro may have some more information on how to navigate this situation (sorry for tagging you if you don't/can't answer!)

 

[Moko]

IA in 2014, fall semester of freshman year. Is a closed case and neither the college nor I can discuss any details other than it was nonacademic violation of the student code of conduct which was disputed. I was able to complete my studies there but chose not to.

Difficult to give any real feedback without knowing the details. The explanation as given is not reassuring and I would assume the worst. Adcoms are fairly risk-averse when it comes to admissions. I agree with @Seihai to clarify what you can legally disclose.

 

[Goro]

Chances/ school list help

• 3.83 cGPA
• 3.91 sGPA
• 512 MCAT (128/123(rip)/131/130)
• NY, White male
• Large public university undergrad, with attached medical school
• 140 hours volunteering at a pediatric urgent care
• 240 hours as a CPR instructor
• 8000 hours as an AEMT working close to full time while in school
• 225 hours as a clinical Research assistant with patient contact, no pubs or posters
• 50 hours as a union steward (leadership)
• No true shadowing but 32 hours as clinical observation in ER and 16 in OR for EMT where is worked closely with doctors
• 3000 hours as rock climbing instructor (worked my way up from instructor to Assistant manager)

IA in 2014, fall semester of freshman year. Is a closed case and neither the college nor I can discuss any details other than it was nonacademic violation of the student code of conduct which was disputed. I was able to complete my studies there but chose not to. Became EMT then AEMT and went back to school after finding my passion for medicine.

My school list is very conservative and way to big in my opinion because of the institutional action which I am not able to discuss as thoroughly as I would like to. Otherwise I like to think my application is fairly competitive for the schools on my tentative list.
MD:
University of Colorado
GW
Georgetown
Loyola of Chicago
University of Maryland
Tufts (family connection)
Central Michigan
Wayne State
University of Minnesota
Dartmouth
Albany Medical College
NYMC
SUNY Buffalo
Stony Brook
University of Toledo
Wright State
Drexel
Penn State
USC Columbia
USC Greenville
Virginia Commonwealth
Eastern Virginia Medical School
University of Cincinnati
University of Illinois
University of Kentucky
University of Louisville
West Virginia University
University of Vermont
DO:
LECOM
PCOM
Ohio University Heritage COM
NYIT COM
Rowan UCOM
Rocky Vista COM
Nova Southwestern University
Midwestern Chicago COM
University of New England COM
MSU OM (maybe)

Any help is greatly appreciated. Either removing schools or adding schools is welcomed.
Thanks!

Med schools are extremely risk averse, and seeing a non-academic violation, even one five years ago, makes me worry that this was a crime against a person., rather than property or involving drug/alcohol use.

Just based upon what you've written (or rather haven't written), my Adcom would reject you, UNLESS you were able to discuss it with your interviewers and.or the Admissions Dean in private.

 

[MyOdyssey]

exactly that. A NDA, which makes it very difficult to say anything. From my understanding I am not even able to mention a NDA. So I'm very much stuck.

Hire an attorney. No employer, grad school or professional school's going to be happy with "I can't talk about it."

Does your record show that you were exonerated?

 

[Moko]

Med schools are extremely risk averse, and seeing a non-academic violation, even one five years ago, makes me worry that this was a crime against a person., rather than property or involving drug/alcohol use.

Just based upon what you've written (or rather haven't written), my Adcom would reject you, UNLESS you were able to discuss it with your interviewers and.or the Admissions Dean in private.

Agreed. Though I would be surprised if the OP even made it to the interview stage.. After reading the explanation for the IA, there was no point in reading the rest of the application. Too many qualified candidates to need to deal with such a large unknown.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Yeah. My first guess is that this was a crime against a person, maybe a pretty bad one that had some ambiguous elements involved and maybe alcohol. It might not have been what happened; you might've set a couch on fire or some other youthful idiocy...but people assume the worst, and if it is a crime against a person you might be dead on arrival.

@Goro: if the OP cannot talk about it, would five to ten years in some exemplary position of responsibility (military officer, teacher in inner city school district, addiction counselor) help the OP or are they just doomed, even if they're a former Army officer or have done Teach for America and then taught inner city kids for six years?

 

[candbgirl]

Yeah. My first guess is that this was a crime against a person, maybe a pretty bad one that had some ambiguous elements involved and maybe alcohol. It might not have been what happened; you might've set a couch on fire or some other youthful idiocy...but people assume the worst, and if it is a crime against a person you might be dead on arrival.

@Goro: if the OP cannot talk about it, would five to ten years in some exemplary position of responsibility (military officer, teacher in inner city school district, addiction counselor) help the OP or are they just doomed, even if they're a former Army officer or have done Teach for America and then taught inner city kids for six years?

Have they done all of that? Anyway, I don’t think it’s possible to think if time and work in exemplary positions would help. We don’t know what he did.

OP have you talked to a lawyer about getting the NDA dropped for application purposes? I’m not sure you should even apply at this time. It might be foolish to apply with this hanging over you.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Yeah. IF it is a crime against a person, the OP might be toast. On the other hand, if it is a drunken brawl or something like that, that might be forgiven 10+ years after the fact. If it's sexual assault: RIP OP's chances at medical school. Dead and completely and utterly irreparable IMO, although @LizzyM has stated that she might consider such a candidate after five to ten years of exemplary work for victims of sexual assault, but only then.

 

[Goro]

Have they done all of that? Anyway, I don’t think it’s possible to think if time and work in exemplary positions would help. We don’t know what he did.

OP have you talked to a lawyer about getting the NDA dropped for application purposes? I’m not sure you should even apply at this time. It might be foolish to apply with this hanging over you.

People like the OP have two sets of problems with the Adcom mindset:
"Is this someone we want in our Class?"
"Why should we take a risk on this kid when we have so many other candidates who didn't do X?"

There are some things that time or deeds do not wash away.

 

[Futuredoc1997199]

Reading this my first assumption is that it could be some kind of sex offense like a sex assault because thats the only reason I can imagine a school having this kind of NDA. If it is, its honestly good your not allowed to disclose it and maybe you'll get a chance. If its not, then get it unsealed some how because its super sketchy and they will think your hiring something.

 

[Dantes]

What was the end result? Case dismissed? Is it on your record (yes I know AMCAS policy on this)? We need more details to advise you.

 

[baker8921]

What was the end result? Case dismissed? Is it on your record (yes I know AMCAS policy on this)? We need more details to advise you.

The end result is that my transcript shows withdraw from the college during the semester. There is no mention of anything else. I truly wish that I were able to discuss it further and provide more information. With the NDA though I am not able to and am not even able to mention why there is a NDA. Due to the agreement the only information able to be given, by myself or the college, is that it was non academic, was disputed and that I am eligible to complete my studies at the college. Attorney has confirmed that this incredibly vague information is all that is able to be given. Honestly not sure what to do at this point.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Jeez, you're in a bind. And you can't confirm or deny if it was a crime against a person. Maybe you could talk to an admissions consultant? This smells very sketchy indeed.

 

[baker8921]

Jeez, you're in a bind. And you can't confirm or deny if it was a crime against a person. Maybe you could talk to an admissions consultant? This smells very sketchy indeed.

I 100% agree that it sounds sketchy and I would be hesitant to believe that what I'm saying is accurate if it wasn't my personal situation. I understand completely how bad this really looks and know that any admissions committee would look at me as a massive risk, whether rightfully so or not. There is nothing more that I want to be able to do than to give all the facts and the full story but am horribly limited in any "explanation" or lackthereof.
Where would I be able to talk to an admissions consultant about this?

 

[Seihai]

The end result is that my transcript shows withdraw from the college during the semester. There is no mention of anything else. I truly wish that I were able to discuss it further and provide more information. With the NDA though I am not able to and am not even able to mention why there is a NDA. Due to the agreement the only information able to be given, by myself or the college, is that it was non academic, was disputed and that I am eligible to complete my studies at the college. Attorney has confirmed that this incredibly vague information is all that is able to be given. Honestly not sure what to do at this point.

If this is true, then you're basically DOA at every school you apply to. There is no being able to bounce back from this in my perspective unless you can get the NDA revoked or get an exception. From what I have gotten from every adcom I have met in person is that they are extraordinarily risk-averse when it comes to medical school applications and possible unprofessionalism/violations. I could see every single one of them rejecting you in favor of another applicant, especially considering your CARS score and the fact that there isn't much to make you distinct from any other applicant that doesn't have this issue on their record.

I'm not going to sugarcoat this, OP. You need to start thinking about other career paths.

 

[Seihai]

As for admissions consultants, Moko and Goro are both admissions committee members. The fact that they say they'd reject you with the facts as it stands bodes extremely poorly for you.

 

[MyOdyssey]

OP. If the facts of this are a lot less severe than what's been speculated, perhaps your attorney at the time can explain what happened. S/he isn't bound by the NDA, correct?

Also, is it likely the college would sue you if you discussed this in a medical school application? If the college does, it doesn't look good for the college.

 

[Dantes]

The end result is that my transcript shows withdraw from the college during the semester. There is no mention of anything else. I truly wish that I were able to discuss it further and provide more information. With the NDA though I am not able to and am not even able to mention why there is a NDA. Due to the agreement the only information able to be given, by myself or the college, is that it was non academic, was disputed and that I am eligible to complete my studies at the college. Attorney has confirmed that this incredibly vague information is all that is able to be given. Honestly not sure what to do at this point.

Then you have two options.

1) Disclose what you've told us and have schools reject you for alarming ambiguity.
2) If there is no record whatsoever of this incident that schools will be able to send, you could not report. AMCAS has a policy against this. You might not get caught if it's not on record. Not condoning this since I'm assuming it's probably more egregious than stealing cafeteria food or smoking in the dorms. But practically speaking that's your only alternative really unless the NDA is lifted.

 

[Seihai]

Then you have two options.

1) Disclose what you've told us and have schools reject you for alarming ambiguity.
2) If there is no record whatsoever of this incident that schools will be able to send, you could not report. AMCAS has a policy against this. Practically speaking, you might not get caught if it's not on record. Not condoning this since I'm assuming it's probably more egregious than stealing cafeteria food or smoking in the dorms. But practically speaking that's your only alternative really unless the NDA is lifted.

#2 is absolutely terrible advice. It is better to not ever get into medical school than to get into medical school and subsequently have your acceptance rescinded or for you to be expelled for withholding this information.

 

[Dantes]

#2 is absolutely terrible advice. It is better to not ever get into medical school than to get into medical school and subsequently have your acceptance rescinded or for you to be expelled for withholding this information.

Yep, a very high risk move.

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

Yep, a very high risk move.

The “move” doesn’t even make sense, though. S/He has a withdrawal during the middle of a semester that shows up on a transcript, and also has gaps in his/her education that many secondaries ask applicants to explain. So unless OP is going to escalate the risk of not disclosing the IA by also omitting the first transcript and/or lying about the pause in his/her education, this “move” doesn’t work.

IMO, OP, it sounds like you don’t really have a chance

 

[Bonne Nuit]

I'm curious OP, you stated you returned to school to finish your prerequisites. Was this the original NDA school or a new school? If it was a new school, how did they react to the mysterious circumstances surrounding the withdrawal?

Also, are you applying to the medical school associated with your original undergraduate institution?

Anyway, the way I see it, you have two bad options in front of you:

1. You can apply as is, NDA in place, and let the chips fall where they may.
2. Assuming you can get the NDA lifted, you disclose the institutional action and understand that the school is now free to report a damaging retelling of the circumstances surrounding said action.

Honestly, this looks like your school accused you of causing harm to someone else, you disputed it, the case was closed or withdrawn for lack of conclusive evidence. A school wouldn't pull a legal move like this because you drunkenly pulled a fire alarm or something. I think it's odd that the NDA is mutual. This leads me to believe your former school is trying to prevent you from disclosing identities of others involved in this situation, like accusers or alleged victims.

I'm sorry for assuming the worst if that wasn't what happened. If what you were accused of is less serious than causing harm to another person, then you should fight as hard as you can to get the NDA lifted.

If you were accused of hurting someone else but you really are innocent, then I'd stick with option 1 recognizing it's a very long shot and maybe not worth the money it would cost. No matter what, you should start thinking about backup career options.

 

[Goro]

I 100% agree that it sounds sketchy and I would be hesitant to believe that what I'm saying is accurate if it wasn't my personal situation. I understand completely how bad this really looks and know that any admissions committee would look at me as a massive risk, whether rightfully so or not. There is nothing more that I want to be able to do than to give all the facts and the full story but am horribly limited in any "explanation" or lackthereof.
Where would I be able to talk to an admissions consultant about this?

You can ask your question with more details in the Confidential Consult forum. You probably can make a throwaway account in order to ask as well.

 

[Futuredoc1997199]

Also, U.S. schools are not your only options. With a 512 and your GPA you can get a really solid scholarship from SGU or Ross. Don't give up just because of one mistake. Those schools will give you a chance. Also, Look into UQ Ochsner. Its an amazing program, and it could be a good opportunity for someone in your shoes.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Also, U.S. schools are not your only options. With a 512 and your GPA you can get a really solid scholarship from SGU or Ross. Don't give up just because of one mistake. Those schools will give you a chance. Also, Look into UQ Ochsner. Its an amazing program, and it could be a good opportunity for someone in your shoes.

OP, do not do any of this unless you want 50/50 or worse odds of losing a quarter million dollars.

 

[Futuredoc1997199]

OP, do not do any of this unless you want 50/50 or worse odds of losing a quarter million dollars.

It’s not 50/50. Do you research before giving advice. I was told by a consultant who was on residency board (for oncology) for decades that USMLe scores are what they use. Not where you went to school. His performance on the MCAT (especially since it’s 90+ percentile for science sections) is a great predictor of success on the USMLE. The overwhelming majority of people who go to the top schools overseas match because they put in the work for the USMLE.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

It’s not 50/50. Do you research before giving advice. I was told by a consultant who was on residency board (for oncology) for decades that USMLe scores are what they use. Not where you went to school. His performance on the MCAT (especially since it’s 90+ percentile for science sections) is a great predictor of success on the USMLE. The overwhelming majority of people who go to the top schools overseas match because they put in the work for the USMLE.

Sure, here's some research for you, straight from the National Resident Matching Program:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-IMGs.pdf

I mean, unless you think some secondhand speculation you heard from some consultant somewhere is superior information...?

Enjoy checking out those abysmal match rates for U.S. Caribbean/overseas medical school graduates.

 

[candbgirl]

It’s not 50/50. Do you research before giving advice. I was told by a consultant who was on residency board (for oncology) for decades that USMLe scores are what they use. Not where you went to school. His performance on the MCAT (especially since it’s 90+ percentile for science sections) is a great predictor of success on the USMLE. The overwhelming majority of people who go to the top schools overseas match because they put in the work for the USMLE.

Be careful of giving bad-horrible information to people. You’ve been on SDN less than a month and as far as I can tell you aren’t in medical school yet. So, spend time reading the various threads. Pay particular attention to the threads dealing with Caribbean schools. Your advisor might have been involved when Caribbean grads were looked at with less scrutiny. That certainly is not the case now. So, be careful what you post. It only takes one post like yours that someone looking for hope grabs on to and sets them up for years of heartache and massive debt.

 

[Futuredoc1997199]

Be careful of giving bad-horrible information to people. You’ve been on SDN less than a month and as far as I can tell you aren’t in medical school yet. So, spend time reading the various threads. Pay particular attention to the threads dealing with Caribbean schools. Your advisor might have been involved when Caribbean grads were looked at with less scrutiny. That certainly is not the case now. So, be careful what you post. It only takes one post like yours that someone looking for hope grabs on to and sets them up for years of heartache and massive debt.

You have to take it in context. There is a huge selection bias when it comes to residency matches because people who go there tend to be less qualified. But for some of the better ones down there, people who are academically ready for Med school and the USMLe like the individual in this post it’s a good option. For the average person with a 495 MCAT and a 3.0 sGPA it’s not.

 

[candbgirl]

You have to take it in context. There is a huge selection bias when it comes to residency matches because people who go there tend to be less qualified. But for some of the better ones down there, people who are academically ready for Med school and the USMLe like the individual in this post it’s a good option. For the average person with a 495 MCAT and a 3.0 sGPA it’s not.

But that isn’t what you said is it? So again, a person looking to grab some hope will see your post and you might have set him up for heartache and mountains of debt(with no way to pay it off).