Are all Colleges Equal?

[Dbate]

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I wanted to ask if all colleges have the same difficulty level in terms of undergrad curriculum. I go to a private school and am ending the semester with about a 3.5 or so but my friends who went to our state flagships (University of Texas and Texas A&M) are getting 4.0s. So I am wondering if all colleges are equal in their difficulty?

 

[circulus vitios]

They're not all equal, but then again it's probably not a huge difference. I mean how many ways can you really teach general chemistry/physics/organic chemistry/biology/etc.

Either way, I doubt admissions committees care.

 

[dprice]

This is why we are required to take the MCAT. An admissions committee is going to be scratching their head if they get an applicant with a 4.0 GPA and a 21. An applicant with a 3.5 and a 34 is going to look much more appealing.

 

[Dbate]

The thing is at my school probably 60% of the class were valedictorians of their high school and probably 99% were in the top ten people in thier class. But the averages on our tests for biology are in the low 80s and sometimes even in the C range. Similarly, for one of our chemistry midterms the average was a 69.

So I am wondering, if people who are this smart are doing so poorly, how can people who go to state schools get 4.0s if the material is the same?

 

[DrBowtie]

College isn't high school. Some people don't know how to setting their own schedules and don't know how to act when they aren't being treated like the special little flower they were when they were big time in high school.

It's hard to judge across schools, but even within a school two profs could have drastically different class philosophies and test difficulties.

 

[JoshUNCW]

The thing is at my school probably 60% of the class were valedictorians of their high school and probably 99% were in the top ten people in thier class. But the averages on our tests for biology are in the low 80s and sometimes even in the C range. Similarly, for one of our chemistry midterms the average was a 69.

So I am wondering, if people who are this smart are doing so poorly, how can people who go to state schools get 4.0s if the material is the same?

Idk, but I wouldn't use going to a private school as an excuse for a poor GPA. Will not fly well with the ADCOMs. Someone with a 4.0 from one of those state schools will be picked above someone with a 3.0 from your school, everything else equal. So just try to make the A.

 

[Dbate]

I don't know. I am just trying to understand how every school could have the same level of difficulty if people at my school are doing so poorly.

I severely doubt that state schools have the same difficulty level because if the average at my school is a 69, then if state school students took the test it would have to be severely below that. But obviously people who go to state schools are doing well (as in 4.0 well), so I don't understand how the material could be comparable.

 

[ITreat]

Difficulty is not equal, actually the difficult is quiet drastic even between different department of same college. The thing is, unless your college is well known, it would be impossible for the admission committee to know how difficult your college is so to admission committees almost all colleges are assumed to be equal.

 

[Dbate]

I go to Yale so I am sure people have heard of it. It is just that I got my first semester grades (3.45 GPA, 3.38 science GPA) and during winter break I had to listen to people talking about how they were getting 4.0s and it was annoying. I took quite a bit of pre-med course: calculus, bio, chemistry, and chemistry lab.

The sad thing is that I was above the curve in almost every single class, so that means half the students are doing worse. So I am thinking, how can people get 4.0s if the work they do is comparable to the work we are doing? Especially since the averages here are so low.

 

[FallenHero]

Cornell is a tough school but you are, IIRC, below average among applicants applying to med school out of Cornell. Likewise, your MCAT is a little below avg among Cornell undergrads. About 70% of white applicants with your stats get admitted so you aren't alone if after this cycle you are without a med school.

...

Your goal should be a 4.0 gpa, particularly if you are trading down in prestige from Ivy League to state university (regardless of the real difficulty of the coursework the name/prestige is all that an adcom thinks about). Then reapply in June 2011. (If you felt that you needed it, you could retake the MCAT in April 2011). Work during the second year or finish up the academic work need for a degree.

and that's that.

 

[searun]

I go to Yale so I am sure people have heard of it. It is just that I got my first semester grades (3.45 GPA, 3.38 science GPA) and during winter break I had to listen to people talking about how they were getting 4.0s and it was annoying. I took quite a bit of pre-med course: calculus, bio, chemistry, and chemistry lab.

The sad thing is that I was above the curve in almost every single class, so that means half the students are doing worse. So I am thinking, how can people get 4.0s if the work they do is comparable to the work we are doing? Especially since the averages here are so low.

Perhaps you should have gone to Harvard instead of Yale. Apparently, most people graduate from Harvard with honors. And I doubt that Harvard students are that much smarter than Yale students. I assume that Harvard has grade inflation.

 

[Dbate]

Perhaps you should have gone to Harvard instead of Yale. Apparently, most people graduate from Harvard with honors. And I doubt that Harvard students are that much smarter than Yale students. I assume that Harvard has grade inflation.

People who talk about grade inflation at top schools really do not know what they are talking about. The reason grades are higher is because everyone here is smart. It is not grade inflation when in my chem lab in order to get an A you have to get a 95, and it sucks to be that person (i.e. me) who gets a 94 and winds up with an A-.

 

[ijn]

Why is school prestige so important? Do the adcoms realize not everyone is born into an upper middle class family raised on Harvard from crib to high school? Although I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise that the process is so heavily anti-meritocratic.

 

[Dbate]

Why is school prestige so important? Do the adcoms realize not everyone is born into an upper middle class family raised on Harvard from crib to high school?

Most people I know here are on financial aid. I definitely am. You do not have to be rich to get into a top school.

 

[ijn]

Most people I know here are on financial aid. I definitely am. You do not have to be rich to get into a top school.

No, picking your parents right just makes it a hell of a lot easier to choose ivy over a more fiscally responsible option like a state school (or god forbid, community college).

Another symptom of our nation's debt addiction, I suppose...

 

[DirtyJustice]

I go to Yale so I am sure people have heard of it. It is just that I got my first semester grades (3.45 GPA, 3.38 science GPA) and during winter break I had to listen to people talking about how they were getting 4.0s and it was annoying. I took quite a bit of pre-med course: calculus, bio, chemistry, and chemistry lab.

The sad thing is that I was above the curve in almost every single class, so that means half the students are doing worse. So I am thinking, how can people get 4.0s if the work they do is comparable to the work we are doing? Especially since the averages here are so low.

Lol....you sound like ron burgandy. I'm kind of a big deal

 

[mybubbles14]

Yes it's the same material...but the difference usually comes in how it is tested. I took a couple of courses back home at my state school and there was a huge difference in the level of difficulty of the exams. However, like another poster has said...there are also gross differences at my school between departments. It's not a coincidence that many of the athletes major in sociology Although it's highly likely that adcoms factor in where you went to school and difficulty of major (to at least some extent) it's not wise to say "oh well my 3.0 from a top 10 is equivalent to a 3.9 at my state school". A 4.0 still looks pretty damn good and nobody can take anything away from you if you achieved one at a state school. Sure, I know plenty of people that ended up getting engineering degrees at my state school that likely wouldn't have been accepted/made it through the engineering school at my university....but being bitter about that (as a former BME major 🙄) or someone's gpa at your "much easier state school" isn't going to help you at all. Preparing/applying to medical school is a stressful process as is w/o adding any additional anxiety about what others are doing. No matter how difficult your school is, at the end of the day there are still individuals with baller gpas.

**on a different note** I love my school and appreciate everything I learned there but I can't help but think how pretty a 4.0 (or something much closer to that from a different school) would look on my resume. I'm not bitter or anything though...😎/🙄

 

[mmmcdowe]

People who talk about grade inflation at top schools really do not know what they are talking about. The reason grades are higher is because everyone here is smart. It is not grade inflation when in my chem lab in order to get an A you have to get a 95, and it sucks to be that person (i.e. me) who gets a 94 and winds up with an A-.

Grade inflation has nothing to do with students when you attend a university that has a policy of curving on a specific letter grade (like B+ at Harvard supposedly). What you are right about is most students at top schools DESERVE such a high curve because they indeed are very smart. It really wouldn't be fair for kids at Yale to have a 2.0 on average (meaning a C, which was the traditional "curve point" at my university back in the day) when they could be going to a less competitive school and averaging a 3.5. Top schools need to have grade inflation to allow their students to deal with grade hungry admissions committees and the like.

Honestly though a 94 A- doesn't shock and awe me that much. I had chem and ochem labs where 90-93 was an A-, and I went to a state school. What makes top schools harder isn't so much the content, because quite honestly gen chem is gen chem. You can have a better or worse teacher, but there really isn't super secret Ivy League general chemistry content. What can make a given class harder is two things.

1) The expectations of the professor. They can make any test hard if they truly wanted to. They could increase the depth of the questions/answers required, or just increase the number of questions in the same amount of time.

2) The students which you are competing with (assuming your school has a curve or a quota of certain grades that they shoot for, which I believe Yale does).

What you have at Yale that is to your advantage isn't so much the prestige as the fact that it is well known to be an academically rigorous university. So while a 3.5 might not be as favorable as a 4.0 at UT, you do certainly get some compensation for the fact that a 4.0 at Yale is way harder to get than at UT. So you might have the equivalent of a 3.7 or 3.8 at another less rigorous university. You also have the advantage of Yale's vast pre-med resources.

 

[ijn]

There's nothing stopping a state school professor from testing as hard or harder than ivy. Conversely, there's nothing stopping an ivy school professor from testing as easy or easier than a state school.

The elitism in this thread is nauseating.

 

[lorenzomicron]

People who talk about grade inflation at top schools really do not know what they are talking about. The reason grades are higher is because everyone here is smart. It is not grade inflation when in my chem lab in order to get an A you have to get a 95, and it sucks to be that person (i.e. me) who gets a 94 and winds up with an A-.

What do you mean about the 94/95 thing? Isn't a 95 an A everywhere and a 94 an A- everywhere? That's the way it is at my school (private but not elitist), so I am not sure why you're complaining about grades?

 

[mmmcdowe]

There's nothing stopping a state school professor from testing as hard or harder than ivy. Conversely, there's nothing stopping an ivy school professor from testing as easy or easier than a state school.

The elitism in this thread is nauseating.

While I agree with you, I must ask don't you think that, on average, Ivy tests are harder? Outliers are great and all, but lets focus on the majority.

 

[mybubbles14]

What do you mean about the 94/95 thing? Isn't a 95 an A everywhere and a 94 an A- everywhere? That's the way it is at my school (private but not elitist), so I am not sure why you're complaining about grades?

90-92 (92.99 for spanish) is A- at my school

 

[Dbate]

There's nothing stopping a state school professor from testing as hard or harder than ivy. Conversely, there's nothing stopping an ivy school professor from testing as easy or easier than a state school.

The elitism in this thread is nauseating.

It is not elitism, it is being bitter (and jealous).

 

[ijn]

While I agree with you, I must ask don't you think that, on average, Ivy tests are harder? Outliers are great and all, but lets focus on the majority.

I do not know. However I would say that school "prestige", which is a proxy merely for how well the student did in winning the parent lottery, shouldn't be on the radar.

The MCAT should be the only consideration allowed if adcoms, as LizzyM says, are prone to thinking that "regardless of the real difficulty of the coursework the name/prestige is all that an adcom thinks about." Absolutely disgusting.

 

[Flakey22]

I wanted to ask if all colleges have the same difficulty level in terms of undergrad curriculum. I go to a private school and am ending the semester with about a 3.5 or so but my friends who went to our state flagships (University of Texas and Texas A&M) are getting 4.0s. So I am wondering if all colleges are equal in their difficulty?

You're going to Yale and you're asking this question? No offense, but you should be able to figure this out on your own.

And if you're so worried about gpa differences, just focus and do your best. I'm pretty sure you have a lot more opportunities and resources at Yale than state schools, so use them wisely. And stop complaining.

 

[ijn]

It is not elitism, it is being bitter (and jealous).

Enjoy your ivory tower.

 

[Flakey22]

I do not know. However I would say that school "prestige", which is a proxy merely for how well the student did in winning the parent lottery, shouldn't be on the radar.

lol, seriously? Parent lottery? I know two people that go to prestigious schools that are middle class, assuming that you're talking about the parent lottery being rich or poor parents. One goes to Yale law and the other goes to the University of Chicago. They barely have to pay anything. You know why? They worked hard for it and had the natural gift of being intelligent. You know what lottery they won? The "work my ass off until I reach my goal" lottery.

The bottom line is that some people have to stop complaining. Yes, it may seem unfair to you, but don't be immature about it. Because I hope you won't be this immature if you become doctors.

 

[Argentium]

Like everyone said, you have insane 'grade inflation' to make up for it.

Organic Chemistry: 25% A's, 60% B's , 15% C's straight from the mouth of a Yale student who just took the class. That's a lot of curving buddy, if you can't get a B+/A- no matter where you go, maybe you aren't cut out to be a doctor. Med school will only be harder, you'll only be surrounded by smarter people, and the curves will only be worse.

lol, seriously? Parent lottery? I know two people that go to prestigious schools that are middle class, assuming that you're talking about the parent lottery being rich or poor parents. One goes to Yale law and the other goes to the University of Chicago. They barely have to pay anything. You know why? They worked hard for it and had the natural gift of being intelligent. You know what lottery they won? The "work my ass off until I reach my goal" lottery.

The bottom line is that some people have to stop complaining. Yes, it may seem unfair to you, but don't be immature about it. Because I hope you won't be this immature if you become doctors.

Middle class is still pretty well off. Getting into a great college while being below the poverty line is near impossible. Not only do you have to support yourself and your family, but the focus on education isn't there, the quality of education in public schools isn't there, and the access to resources definitely is not there. It is definitely a lottery game, and there is no denying that.

 

[ijn]

lol, seriously? Parent lottery? I know two people that go to prestigious schools that are middle class, assuming that you're talking about the parent lottery being rich or poor parents. One goes to Yale law and the other goes to the University of Chicago. They barely have to pay anything. You know why? They worked hard for it and had the natural gift of being intelligent. You know what lottery they won? The "work my ass off until I reach my goal" lottery.

The bottom line is that some people have to stop complaining. Yes, it may seem unfair to you, but don't be immature about it. Because I hope you won't be this immature if you become doctors.

When you become an adult you'll begin to see how money and being well born will get you much farther in life than hard work.

Case in point: LizzyM. Adcoms can't be bothered to investigate the difficultly of a student's course load, so they merely look at the school's name. Even if the student got an A from the hardest OChem professor in the nation, the fact that he went to LSU rather than Yale means it's worthless.

One would hope that an anti-meritocratic system such as this is doomed to devour itself through ineptitude.

 

[searun]

OP, plenty of students at Harvard and Yale get into med school every year. I should know, I attend a Ivy League med school, and it seems like about half of the people in my class graduated from either Harvard or Yale (or Princeton). You chose to attend Yale and if you can't hack the competition, then perhaps you should have gone to your state school.

Bottom line, quit worrying about everyone else, and take care of your own business. Do the work and move to the front of the line, if you can. Medicine is competitive and it is only going to get more competitive for you, if you continue on this path. Whining and jealousy will not help you.

 

[Dbate]

I do not know. However I would say that school "prestige", which is a proxy merely for how well the student did in winning the parent lottery, shouldn't be on the radar.

I do not know about other Ivies but a large portion of the people here are no where near rich. And even the rich kids are incredibly intelligent and worked hard to get here. So the argument about parent wealth is a non-issue.

 

[Argentium]

I do not know about other Ivies but a large portion of the people here are no where near rich. And even the rich kids are incredibly intelligent and worked hard to get here. So the argument about parent wealth is a non-issue.

Repeat:

When you become an adult you'll begin to see how money and being well born will get you much farther in life than hard work.

Your friends are most likely not poor.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

middle class is not well off..
upper middle class kids get 0 financial aid.. (btw if there is some way they do.. well please inform me haha.. because i need to transfer next year and im in need of some cash)
i know already that im basically forced to go to a public school unless i want 120k debt before medical school..

 

[ijn]

So the argument about parent wealth is a non-issue.

Ah, the naivety.

Tell me, how many students at Yale have parents that live near the poverty line? I'm sure they have a few charity cases, but I feel safe stating that the parents of Yale's student body are not a representative sample of American family income. The ivy student population over represents middle and upper middle class families. Therefore school prestige is a proxy for winning the parental lottery.

 

[Argentium]

Ah, the naivety.

Tell me, how many students at Yale have parents that live near the poverty line? I'm sure they have a few charity cases, but I feel safe stating that the parents of Yale's student body are not a representative sample of American family income. The ivy student population over represents middle and upper middle class families. Therefore school prestige is a proxy for winning the parental lottery.

According to the 2007 US Census (the middle of an economic boom), 18% of children live in poverty, even higher because of the last two years and the current economic climate. A very high number.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I do not know. However I would say that school "prestige", which is a proxy merely for how well the student did in winning the parent lottery, shouldn't be on the radar.

The MCAT should be the only consideration allowed if adcoms, as LizzyM says, are prone to thinking that "regardless of the real difficulty of the coursework the name/prestige is all that an adcom thinks about." Absolutely disgusting.

I would love for LizzyM to come and comment about your quote of her, because I have a feeling that it is being taken out of context or to a more extreme version of her conclusions (not that you are doing this intentionally). School academic reputation can help some, but good grades matter more. I went to a school who's reputation is hardly academic, but I did get comments about my course load and also a few questions about specific classes. What I think should be emphasized is that med schools don't tend to go through your courses and letter grades with a fine tooth comb. They generally seem to just breeze through it looking for trends and discrepancies.

 

[Dbate]

Ah, the naivety.

Tell me, how many students at Yale have parents that live near the poverty line? I'm sure they have a few charity cases, but I feel safe stating that the parents of Yale's student body are not a representative sample of American family income. The ivy student population over represents middle and upper middle class families. Therefore school prestige is a proxy for winning the parental lottery.

Well 10% of Yale are Pell grant recipients so i think that says something. Also it is denigrating the hardwork of students to say that their parents wealth is what caused their success. Money did not get people grades, nor get them test scores or extracurriculars, and money certainly didn't write people's essays or do thier interview for them.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Could we not turn this thread into a flame war. They Ivy League is not the bastion of elitism that it once was. Sure, people that are below the poverty line are under-represented in higher education (not just the Ivy League), but the fact that middle class folk make up a huge chunk of the Ivy Leaguers today should tell you something about it. Merit, not pedigree, is much more important now.

 

[youngMeddy]

Ah, the naivety.

Tell me, how many students at Yale have parents that live near the poverty line? I'm sure they have a few charity cases, but I feel safe stating that the parents of Yale's student body are not a representative sample of American family income. The ivy student population over represents middle and upper middle class families. Therefore school prestige is a proxy for winning the parental lottery.

Your absolutely right. Though I know a good amount of people who live under the poverty line (including myself), who went to Yale. Of course everyone is not a genius (some are dumb), but regardless of class, people on the average are really smart. Back to the matter at hand, Dbate... stop whining your a freshmen with a GPA over 3.5. You already had a thread, where the consensus was that you would be fine even if you graduated with a 3.5. As said you have a vast number of opps, not available to people are many other schools. Take advantage of them and stop worrying about pople at other schools. Those opps and the Yale name are your advantage, but thats it.

 

[Dbate]

I find it offensive that people are suggesting that Yale is a rich kid school because it absolutely is not. Especially considering if your parents make about 150K, you pay 10% of less of your parents income.

The financial aid here is very generous and open to many students. My parents make about 110K and thanks to the generosity of the wealthy donors I only pay about 1K a year to attend.

 

[ijn]

I would love for LizzyM to come and comment about your quote of her, because I have a feeling that it is being taken out of context or to a more extreme version of her conclusions (not that you are doing this intentionally). School academic reputation can help some, but good grades matter more. I went to a school who's reputation is hardly academic, but I did get comments about my course load and also a few questions about specific classes. What I think should be emphasized is that med schools don't tend to go through your courses and letter grades with a fine tooth comb. They generally seem to just breeze through it looking for trends and discrepancies.

Perhaps she did not mean what she wrote. However even when read in the full context of her statement, it is in my opinion a damning indictment of an anti-meritocratic system.

Cornell is a tough school but you are, IIRC, below average among applicants applying to med school out of Cornell. Likewise, your MCAT is a little below avg among Cornell undergrads. About 70% of white applicants with your stats get admitted so you aren't alone if after this cycle you are without a med school.

If this is your first cycle, I'd suggest preparing like crazy and retaking the MCAT in April. Then plan to reapply during the first week of June 2010 if you have managed at least a 34 on the MCAT. Find something (f/t job in research or in a hospital or outpatient setting) to do to support yourself during the year off.

Alternately, take a two year gap. Take some additional natural science courses in 2010-11 to show that you have what it takes to succeed in medical school. This could be undergrad courses, a masters in bio or chem, or a special masters program. Your goal should be a 4.0 gpa, particularly if you are trading down in prestige from Ivy League to state university (regardless of the real difficulty of the coursework the name/prestige is all that an adcom thinks about). Then reapply in June 2011. (If you felt that you needed it, you could retake the MCAT in April 2011). Work during the second year or finish up the academic work need for a degree.

Ah, "trading down"...

 

[Dbate]

I had a simple question, are all colleges equal in difficulty? Could anyone respond?

 

[Argentium]

Well 10% of Yale are Pell grant recipients so i think that says something. Also it is denigrating the hardwork of students to say that their parents wealth is what caused their success. Money did not get people grades, nor get them test scores or extracurriculars, and money certainly didn't write people's essays or do thier interview for them.

No one is discrediting hard work, but it is fact that wealth helps people do well. Being wealthy means ...

1. You don't have to worry about income or finding multiple jobs to help support your family and put food on the table
2. You have more opportunities to pursue extracurricular activities, many of which take a lot of time if you are in a leadership position.
3. You have more opportunities to play sports and or take musical lessons, many of which are extremely expensive to participate in (football, lacrosse) and lessons are not cheap.
4. You have the opportunity to have a private tutor, if you need one.
5. You have the opportunity to take SAT classes, many of which run over 300$.

What someone said before is absolutely right though, the Ivy League is no longer the "bastion of elitism" that it once was, and they've taken great lengths to change the "ivory tower" image. BUT, ijn is correct in that Yale is not representative of the distribution of income in America.

BTW, there is a strong correlation of wealth/SAT scores. Look it up, (though I recognize that correlation != causation)



......

no colleges are not equal in difficulty (duh). school prestige helps in medical school admissions. half of the class at my local medical school is ivy league.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I had a simple question, are all colleges equal in difficulty? Could anyone respond?

You were answered. No, they are not. Different professors in the same department aren't of equal difficulty, let alone universities.

 

[mybubbles14]

I do not know about other Ivies but a large portion of the people here are no where near rich. And even the rich kids are incredibly intelligent and worked hard to get here. So the argument about parent wealth is a non-issue.

maybe yale is unique (maybe...🙄) but I'm going to have to disagree...I attended a top 10 and the number of beamers, range rovers etc. in the parking lots say otherwise. Perhaps you simply have a different definition of rich. Regardless, money does provide more opportunities. Yes there are individuals with complete financial aid packages but they are the minority. I love my school for the good and the bad but to say that many people there weren't "priviledged" would be dishonest.

 

[ijn]

.

 

[ijn]

I had a simple question, are all colleges equal in difficulty? Could anyone respond?

The answer to your question is beside the point. Attend the Ivy. If LizzyM is to be trusted, then adcoms believe that prestige is more important than a college's actual difficulty.

 

[JJMrK]

I had a simple question, are all colleges equal in difficulty? Could anyone respond?

No, probably not. Some private schools are known to be huge grade inflaters. Also, while the material is probably the same from school to school, a professor at one institution is going to write a different test than a professor at another.

 

[metalambience]

I can definitely sympathize with you. I went to yale myself freshman year and my classes were brutal (i used APs to get straight into higher level classes + organic ). I was literally up until at least 2am every night, with some nights going past 4am to the point where I knew most of the night janitors by name. I did do OK and learned a ton, but it definately was not worth the years taken off my life, so I quit and went to a small private school. I'm glad I did, as getting As is a joke and I now have time to do lots of extracurriculars like international service trips, sports, and teaching people sailing/ flying- the money I saved more than covered all kinds of travel, excursions and competitions. I think a 4.0 at a well known private school combined with all the additional extracurriculars will look better than a 3.7-3.8 at an Ivy. So my feeling is tranfer if it is too hard.

But to be more specific, most schools go by a point system. Going to Ivy will get you extra points. How much difference this makes depends on the school, but I know the med school near me will give you points equal to an extra 0.2 on your gpa. So for that specific school, a 3.48 at yale would be like a 3.68 at a normal college. Contact each school individually, though.

 

[NNukibw77]

Troll thread. You know what the answer is.