are carribean grads considered IMGs?

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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FMG: Foreign national. Graduate of a foreign institution.
IMG: Any graduate of a foreign institution. Includes U.S. nationals.
 
The NRMP and all the governing bodies consider them the same when they put out stuff like "Charting Outcomes in the Match".
 
Carribean schools are chartered by the government/dept. of education of the island on which they are located, not by the US. So, an American national who goes to one of those schools is considered an IMG. A native of that island who goes to that same school would be considered a FMG. Semantics.
 
Mobius1985 said:
Puerto Rican medical school graduates are not IMGs.
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The LCME accredited schools are not included when we speak of "caribbean schools" on these boards. They are not similarly situated. So the PR schools are lumped in with the American schools (notwithstanding that that island is part of the caribbean). So "caribbean school" grads are IMGs. PR school grads are US school grads.
 
SomeDoc said:
FMG: Foreign national. Graduate of a foreign institution.
IMG: Any graduate of a foreign institution. Includes U.S. nationals.
Click to expand...
So where does the I in IMG come from then?
 
Long Dong said:
So where does the I in IMG come from then?
Click to expand...

Commonly --

FMG: Foreign Medical Grad. A foreign national who went to a foreign med school (obviously, usually in their home country)

IMG: International Medical Grad. An American national who went abroad/internationally for a medical education, and as such must apply for residency via the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Grads

again, semantics.
 
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it might not be used anymore but there is certainly a distinction when it comes to residency application. a USIMG is a US National and needs no visa. An FMG DOES.

That makes a pretty big difference in some cases.
 
What the ef is the "5th Pathway"?

And what are the first 4?
 
Tired said:
What the ef is the "5th Pathway"?

And what are the first 4?
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Those who go to med school in Mexico must do an EXTRA year of supervised rotations in the states called the 5th pathway... Its often sponsored by a teaching hospital..
The first 4 are the 4 years in med school..

{yes, this thing takes guts..}
 
Long Dong said:
So the ECFMG thing that my father took years ago doesn't exsist anymore?
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The organization ECFMG {affiliated with NBME} still exist on Market St. in Philadelphia..
But basically all foreign grads except Puerto Rico are considered IMGs.

The ECFMG exam was change years ago to the USMLE...To supposedly give all medical candidates a level playing surface..

The ECFMG also changed the term from FMG to IMG ..There are two kind of IMGs..Those fighting for a visa and American born IMGs..I understand that this could make difference when applying for residency..
 
Law2Doc said:
Again PR folks wouldn't be considered "foreign grads" -- they are US med school grads and are LCME accredited.

I'm not sure the accredited Canadian schools would count as IMG either.
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1) correct.
2) students from LCME accredited schools in Canada=IMG
 
Law2Doc said:
Again PR folks wouldn't be considered "foreign grads" -- they are US med school grads and are LCME accredited.

I'm not sure the accredited Canadian schools would count as IMG either.
Click to expand...

True, the thing with Puerto Rico is that they do not want to be a state.. They just want to be a U.S. territory..🙂
 
mjl1717 said:
Those who go to med school in Mexico must do an EXTRA year of supervised rotations in the states called the 5th pathway... Its often sponsored by a teaching hospital..
The first 4 are the 4 years in med school..

{yes, this thing takes guts..}
Click to expand...


Not really.

In many countries, Mexico being one, the medical school will not grant the student their M.D. until after they have completed their intern year. That is, they must complete four years of med school, and a PGY-1 year, and are (retroactively, if you will) granted their M.D. But, when they are awarded the M.D. it is complete with license to practice, as well as some solid experience. Thank you very much Doctor, if you don't want to do a residency, go make yourself useful somewhere as a generalist.

But, if an American goes to one of those programs overseas, and is also accepted to the 5th Pathway program (which is currently available at New York Medical College, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, or Ponce School of Medicine,) they do not have to do the intern year overseas. They complete the four years of M.D. and then do the year of supervised clinical rotations with the 5th Pathway - where they do the work of your garden variety PGY-1, but actually pay tuition, rather than recieve a paycheck. At the end of the program, the M.D. is granted in cooperation with the overseas medical school, the 5th Pathway, and the State of NY or commonwealth of PR.

Apparently the program was designed for some Americans who went to med school in Mexico, and were going to have to do their intern year in some particularly unsafe location in Mexico. The 5th Pathway bailed them out of that sticky situation.

This program is the 5th Pathway to being able to practice medicine in the US. The first four were: 1 - MD from a US school, 2 - completing an MD overseas and returning via the ECFMG, 3 - being granted a "full and unrestricted medical licence" by a state on the basis of extensive medical experience overseas (it does happen), and 4 - (back in 1971) passing the medical licensing exam of Puerto Rico.

By the by, it will soon cease to exist, as the 5th Pathway will be closed next year.
 
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howelljolly said:
In many countries, Mexico being one, the medical school will not grant the student their M.D. until after they have completed their intern year. That is, they must complete four years of med school, and a PGY-1 year, and are (retroactively, if you will) granted their M.D. But, when they are awarded the M.D. it is complete with license to practice, as well as some solid experience. Thank you very much Doctor, if you don't want to do a residency, go make yourself useful somewhere as a generalist.
Click to expand...
Well, since we're getting into trivia in this thread, a medical school graduate can't use the "M.D." after his name in foreign countries like Oklahoma. Most academic careers and professional titles are separate - in my first life, I had an M.S. in Accountancy and a C.P.A. certificate - and the C.P.A. designation was the regulated part - the M.S. is a purely academic title, unregulated, that's mine forever.

Not so in medicine. "M.D." is both an academic degree and a professional designation - therefore, its use is regulated. I know the most about Oklahoma - and I know that, even though you graduate from medical school and get the sheepskin, you cannot publicly use the "M.D." after your name without a license. Now, this is generally no issue at all since generally you've already got your Special Training License by graduation - which is not an unrestricted license, but it is a license, and entitles you to use the "M.D." designation.

Remember Melvin Konner who wrote the old, but classic, book "Becoming A Doctor"? He never did a residency - he went back into academics. He could not legally use title "Melvin Konner, M.D." in this state as he did on his book.

Just trivia... not that it has any real significance.
 
howelljolly said:
Not really.

In many countries, Mexico being one, the medical school will not grant the student their M.D. until after they have completed their intern year. That is, they must complete four years of med school, and a PGY-1 year, and are (retroactively, if you will) granted their M.D. But, when they are awarded the M.D. it is complete with license to practice, as well as some solid experience. Thank you very much Doctor, if you don't want to do a residency, go make yourself useful somewhere as a generalist.

But, if an American goes to one of those programs overseas, and is also accepted to the 5th Pathway program (which is currently available at New York Medical College, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, or Ponce School of Medicine,) they do not have to do the intern year overseas. They complete the four years of M.D. and then do the year of supervised clinical rotations with the 5th Pathway - where they do the work of your garden variety PGY-1, but actually pay tuition, rather than recieve a paycheck. At the end of the program, the M.D. is granted in cooperation with the overseas medical school, the 5th Pathway, and the State of NY or commonwealth of PR.

Apparently the program was designed for some Americans who went to med school in Mexico, and were going to have to do their intern year in some particularly unsafe location in Mexico. The 5th Pathway bailed them out of that sticky situation.

This program is the 5th Pathway to being able to practice medicine in the US. The first four were: 1 - MD from a US school, 2 - completing an MD overseas and returning via the ECFMG, 3 - being granted a "full and unrestricted medical licence" by a state on the basis of extensive medical experience overseas (it does happen), and 4 - (back in 1971) passing the medical licensing exam of Puerto Rico.

By the by, it will soon cease to exist, as the 5th Pathway will be closed next year.
Click to expand...

So what schools are included in this 5th pathway program? Are these schools like the University of Guadalajara (I know I spelled this wrong)? Are all the schools in Mexico that cater to US citizens part of the 5th pathway program? I've never heard of this. I always figured that Americans who went to Mexico to get their medical degree were basically in the same boat as the Caribbean graduates. I guess not.
 
silas2642 said:
So what schools are included in this 5th pathway program? Are these schools like the University of Guadalajara (I know I spelled this wrong)? Are all the schools in Mexico that cater to US citizens part of the 5th pathway program? I've never heard of this. I always figured that Americans who went to Mexico to get their medical degree were basically in the same boat as the Caribbean graduates. I guess not.
Click to expand...

From what I know its mostly Mexico that currently has access to this 5th pathway..But I also heard that the 5th pathway would end soon..
 
silas2642 said:
So what schools are included in this 5th pathway program? Are these schools like the University of Guadalajara (I know I spelled this wrong)? Are all the schools in Mexico that cater to US citizens part of the 5th pathway program? I've never heard of this. I always figured that Americans who went to Mexico to get their medical degree were basically in the same boat as the Caribbean graduates. I guess not.
Click to expand...

There are a few different systems of medical education out there... 4, 5, 7, and 8 years in duration.

Any program which is structured such that there are four years of medical school plus one year of required internship before the MD is awarded will qualify. This includes Guadalajara, other schools in Mexico, as well as others around the world. Many Americans who go overseas for med school already have an undergraduate degree, and look for the 4 or 5 year programs.

The school is not really "part of" the program, rather the student is qualified for the program. As long as the student is an American national, has an undergraduate degree from a US school, and has studied medicine abroad in a school with the 4+1 structure, they can apply for a seat in the 5th Pathway program (CV, personal statement, interview, etc.) If accepted, they would essentially do their "internship" at New York Medical College (or wherever they were accepted), instead of in the country where they went to medical school.

Americans who go to medical school in Mexico, Dominican Republic, Phillipines, India, England, Australia, etc. are actually in a much safer boat than those that go to the Carribean. Not only do they have the option of 5th Pathway in many cases, even if they dont, or just didnt get selected for the 5th Pathway, they can still complete their MD, and return to the US and apply through the ECFMG for a US Residency.
Americans who go to Carribean schools are in a more precarious situation because they do their 3rd and 4th years in the US, and not in the Carribean. Paradoxically, their US clinical experience is brought under scruitiny. If the American-Carribean student opts to do their clinical years in Canada or the UK, they are in the same safe boat of the non-Carribean US-IMGs.
 
howelljolly said:
There are a few different systems of medical education out there... 4, 5, 7, and 8 years in duration.

Any program which is structured such that there are four years of medical school plus one year of required internship before the MD is awarded will qualify. This includes Guadalajara, other schools in Mexico, as well as others around the world. Many Americans who go overseas for med school already have an undergraduate degree, and look for the 4 or 5 year programs.

The school is not really "part of" the program, rather the student is qualified for the program. As long as the student is an American national, has an undergraduate degree from a US school, and has studied medicine abroad in a school with the 4+1 structure, they can apply for a seat in the 5th Pathway program (CV, personal statement, interview, etc.) If accepted, they would essentially do their "internship" at New York Medical College (or wherever they were accepted), instead of in the country where they went to medical school.

Americans who go to medical school in Mexico, Dominican Republic, Phillipines, India, England, Australia, etc. are actually in a much safer boat than those that go to the Carribean. Not only do they have the option of 5th Pathway in many cases, even if they dont, or just didnt get selected for the 5th Pathway, they can still complete their MD, and return to the US and apply through the ECFMG for a US Residency.
Americans who go to Carribean schools are in a more precarious situation because they do their 3rd and 4th years in the US, and not in the Carribean. Paradoxically, their US clinical experience is brought under scruitiny. If the American-Carribean student opts to do their clinical years in Canada or the UK, they are in the same safe boat of the non-Carribean US-IMGs.
Click to expand...

Good info!! I bet many probably hear this important and elusive info after the fact..
 
howelljolly said:
Paradoxically, their US clinical experience is brought under scruitiny. If the American-Carribean student opts to do their clinical years in Canada or the UK, they are in the same safe boat of the non-Carribean US-IMGs.
Click to expand...

Why would US clinical experience be scrutinized? Isn't it more verifiable than foreign experience? Also, if a person is planning to practice in the US, I think it would be better for him/her to have US clinical experience. I am kinda confused..not seeing the drawbacks..
 
Non-TradTulsa said:
Well, since we're getting into trivia in this thread, a medical school graduate can't use the "M.D." after his name in foreign countries like Oklahoma. Most academic careers and professional titles are separate - in my first life, I had an M.S. in Accountancy and a C.P.A. certificate - and the C.P.A. designation was the regulated part - the M.S. is a purely academic title, unregulated, that's mine forever.

Not so in medicine. "M.D." is both an academic degree and a professional designation - therefore, its use is regulated. I know the most about Oklahoma - and I know that, even though you graduate from medical school and get the sheepskin, you cannot publicly use the "M.D." after your name without a license. Now, this is generally no issue at all since generally you've already got your Special Training License by graduation - which is not an unrestricted license, but it is a license, and entitles you to use the "M.D." designation.

Remember Melvin Konner who wrote the old, but classic, book "Becoming A Doctor"? He never did a residency - he went back into academics. He could not legally use title "Melvin Konner, M.D." in this state as he did on his book.

Just trivia... not that it has any real significance.
Click to expand...

Interesting post...but when did Oklahoma secede from the Union? I figure I would have heard about that.
 
SomeDoc said:
FMG: Foreign national. Graduate of a foreign institution.
IMG: Any graduate of a foreign institution. Includes U.S. nationals.
Click to expand...

This is not true. FMG refers to anyone who graduated from a foreign institution regardless of their country of origin. However, the term IMG has been used to replace the term FMG out of respect to graduates of these schools because "foreign" has a negative connotation to it and international is a more accepting term. On official match statistics, the terms U.S. IMGs will sometimes be used to distinguish them from IMGs of foreign countries. Nonetheless, there are no distinct terms like FMG and IMG; this is nothing but a contrived effort by U.S. residents who have trained at foreign schools to distinguish themselves from non-U.S. residents who train at these schools. Officially, there is no distinction.
 
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xdopaminex said:
Why would US clinical experience be scrutinized? Isn't it more verifiable than foreign experience? Also, if a person is planning to practice in the US, I think it would be better for him/her to have US clinical experience. I am kinda confused..not seeing the drawbacks..
Click to expand...

Why? Maybe simply because they can. As an previous poster mentioned, there is an Us vs. Them attitude, esp. against Carribean graduates who are assumed to be attempting to enter the US healthcare system via the back door.

But I believe that the 'real' reason has to do with the academic/educational supervision in place. If clinicals are done at the university hospital (in whatever country that university is), it is assumed that this education is up to the standards of the school itself, and the group that accredits the school (local/national government, WHO). However, at the Carribean, aka "offshore American" schools that send their students for the 3rd and 4th years in American hospitals, the schools have no direct supervision over the education. So, the state licensing boards take it upon themselves to check on the details of each rotation that the student has done in the US.

Its pretty senseless.
 
It is not really a Us vs Them attitude. Caribbean schools indeed represent a way to enter the US Healthcare system via the back door....unless you were born in the island and therefore it would make some sense that you go to your local med school...Let's be real here.
 
BrainBuff said:
It is not really a Us vs Them attitude. Caribbean schools indeed represent a way to enter the US Healthcare system via the back door....unless you were born in the island and therefore it would make some sense that you go to your local med school...Let's be real here.
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Agreed. It's not us vs them. These schools were created as a cottage industry a few decades back for US folks who couldn't get into US med schools. The number of caribbean students at the popular offshore schools is pretty insignificant -- they are basically all US nationals. The whole point of them is that (1) half of all US applicants won't get into US med schools, (2) of those thousands of students, many have plenty of money and would pay a lot for a "second chance" at medical school, and (3) US med schools don't graduate enough people to fill all the US funded residency slots, so about 40% of caribbean students will have a shot at being successful at becoming a licensed US physician. But they have to be the best of the folks going down this path. So it's really a them vs them analysis.

Because they are money making ventures and have no "mission" to serve a community as US schools often do, these schools have very high attrition, and some have pretty nominal entry requirements. It represents a much harder road, but some percentage of individuals end up successful. It works sort of like a Vegas slot machine -- as long as it pays off some of the time, folks will keep putting in their quarters, notwithstanding that it is pretty low yield.
 
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