.

  • Thread starter Thread starter deleted920019
  • Start date Start date
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I don’t know but did your parents do their residencies within the last several years? Things have changed a lot and with more US MD and DO schools opening, along with the merger, it’s gotten much tighter and more competitive for non US grads.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
orgonogo said:
Thank you! And if you do residency in Europe, I know you have to do it in the U.S. again..how does that process go? Is it as long and right alongside students that are right out of med school? Or shortened? Is it still as difficult to work in the U.S. after you've gotten your MD and residency in Europe?

Also @gyngyn the link is broken
Click to expand...
Year of Graduation (YOG) is a screen for many programs.
This puts those with a previous residency at a significant disadvantage.
One does not receive credit for residency time done at non-ACGME programs.
https://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRM...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

You cannot work as a physician without a residency in the US.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
orgonogo said:
Thank you! And if you do residency in Europe, I know you have to do it in the U.S. again..how does that process go? Is it as long and right alongside students that are right out of med school? Or shortened? Is it still as difficult to work in the U.S. after you've gotten your MD and residency in Europe?

Also @gyngyn the link is broken
Click to expand...

From everything I've seen it is the same length and with new residents. You are paid like a PGY-1 physician. You probably are given more leeway/freedom once you're actually in residency. I still think you are at a disadvantage for most competitive programs/specialties (I have only seen foreign physicians at a low-tier peds program where I rotated as a third year) but for different reasons--for example, why are you returning after 10 years outside the country? are you sure you can do residency now as a 30ish year old? etc.

Also, a fixed link (hopefully): https://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRM...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf
 
orgonogo said:
I've seen on here several times how going to med school in europe is the equivalent of going in the caribbean when it comes to practicing medicine in the U.S. I have trouble fully buying this as both my parents went to med schools in eastern europe. One did a derm residency at a US top 10 school and the other obgyn residency at a decent US school and are practicing here. They genuinely didn't have a problem doing it back then, but according to forums, it appears it's about 100 times harder now and I'm not sure how to weight things out.

Based on all of this, I can't decide whether going to med school in europe is actually not worth it in the long run. I'm confident about my stats for U.S. schools (3.74/519) so it feels I may as well stay here and have a nearly guaranteed U.S. residency, but my family is pressuring me to go to europe due to costs, living preferences, etc (and I personally would enjoy being there for the few years of med school around family there and it's a much lower pressure, healthier environment imo). I wouldn't completely mind if I had to stay and practice in europe after medical school, but I'm worried that it'd pretty much take away the option for a decent or competitive residency in the U.S. if I wanted to return
Click to expand...
Not sure I can help with your question, but have you looked into the Atlantic Bridge program? It allows US students to study medicine in Europe at multiple schools. Seems like a great option if you decide to go that route and I think the application is pretty straightforward!
 
I was in the same situation, considering UK and US schools but ultimately wanted to practice here and had good stats so I went US. The problem with the European grad statistics is that good grads from the good schools tend not to leave so everyone gets lumped together. Though I can’t imagine if you studied at a top UK/French/German school you would have a problem getting a US residency, getting a top, preferred residency might be a hard though... with your stats just go US, no question.
 
orgonogo said:
I've seen on here several times how going to med school in europe is the equivalent of going in the caribbean when it comes to practicing medicine in the U.S. I have trouble fully buying this as both my parents went to med schools in eastern europe. One did a derm residency at a US top 10 school and the other obgyn residency at a decent US school and are practicing here. They genuinely didn't have a problem doing it back then, but according to forums, it appears it's about 100 times harder now and I'm not sure how to weight things out.

Based on all of this, I can't decide whether going to med school in europe is actually not worth it in the long run. I'm confident about my stats for U.S. schools (3.74/519) so it feels I may as well stay here and have a nearly guaranteed U.S. residency, but my family is pressuring me to go to europe due to costs, living preferences, etc (and I personally would enjoy being there for the few years of med school around family there and it's a much lower pressure, healthier environment imo). I wouldn't completely mind if I had to stay and practice in europe after medical school, but I'm worried that it'd pretty much take away the option for a decent or competitive residency in the U.S. if I wanted to return
Click to expand...

Ahhh, families, doing their best to destroy medical careers out of love + ignorance.
 
Only go to med school in Europe if you are certain you would prefer to practice in Europe, presumably in the country at which you attend med school. There are no other factors to consider. COA means nothing when you're 50% less likely to match and be able to practice medicine in the US. Years of your life essentially wasted, just at a lower price than if you wasted them at an expensive Caribbean school. The alleged less stressful atmosphere will mean little compared to the stress of never being able to be a doctor in the US. Unless you know you want to practice in Europe, don't go the IMG route. Don't make what would be the biggest mistake of your life.
 
orgonogo said:
Biggest mistake of my life and a destroyed medical career seems pretty extreme...I think I should've made it more clear that I would genuinely be happy staying in Europe and living there. And "less stressful" was not referring to med school there, it refers to being around family in a less fast paced city style that I enjoy (I've lived in a couple parts of Europe all until middle school and was born there, it's not random and being able to practice in the EU is very different from being stuck in a caribbean country that I have no familiarity with).

My issue is more with keeping the option of returning open, but it seems I definitely can't expect to get the best of all worlds and I get that now -- it is a study where you want to stay decision

One more question, about the reverse...does anyone know if it's just as hard to practice in Europe if you are trained in the U.S? I'm guessing you just definitely have to practice where you go to med school but just to make sure
Click to expand...

Much easier to go from US to European countries with some exceptions (I know the Nordic countries are pretty strict with licensing US docs). I don't believe they make you do residency training; they may make you pass a country-specific licensing exam and a language test but its much more doable.
 
If you want to live and move all over the place, find another career. Medicine is not it.
 
allantois said:
If you want to live and move all over the place, find another career. Medicine is not it.
Click to expand...

Not entirely too. I'd imagine a career as a physician with the U.S. military would offer that kind of lifestyle.
 
allantois said:
If you want to live and move all over the place, find another career. Medicine is not it.
Click to expand...

I know a few doctors who travel all the time and work all over the place. Ones a hospitalist who does locum tenens throughout Colorado and California then travels even more in between gigs
 
Someone recently told me those residency stats don't really mean anything because if you score well on Step 1, you have pretty much just as good a shot at getting into a residency of your choosing, assuming you want to do something not top-tier like neurology or endocrinology. Would you agree with that idea?

To clarify, I strongly disagree with this idea. I'm just fishing for data-driven arguments to support my position so I have something more to say then "No".
 
Last edited:
I met a gal from Oxford on my interview trail for residency a few years ago. It was her only interview, and reportedly her application was quantitatively competitive. According to her she was basically treated exactly the same as any other toilet tier carib grad. Take that n of 1 how you will.
 
You have to be a real superstar to match from abroad, even if you are a citizen; it is not true, but I think there is an assumption that you could not have gotten into a competitive US med school so went abroad. I have several family members and family friends who have gone through the foreign-to-US trail, and very rarely were they able to do what they wanted to do where they wanted to do it.
 
gonnif said:
You have 3 ways to get placed into a residency position
1) Prematch. This appears now to get the least number of people as NRMP created an "All-In" policy a few years ago, requiring all programs to included all their positions being filled in a given year if they want to be part of the match. Since I do not have good numbers on this I will leave it off for the moment

2)Match: the Match Rate for residency only refers to active applicants in the match. Reported with this data are all initial applicants but those who withdrew (usually over board issues) and those who did not rank at any residency programs but these numbers are dropped from the Match Rate. Since most US MD Seniors match, these numbers are small. However, when it comes to US IMGs these numbers are quite large. (see tables below). For US-MD Seniors, the total "non-match rate" is 8.1%; for the US IMGs that number grows to 61% or nearly 8 times as much. Another way to look at this is almost 92% of US MD seniors who initially applied for residency matched into slot while for US-IMGs that number is under 39%.

3) SOAP -Postmatch: If an applicant doesnt get match, they can get a postmatch placement via SOAP which lets programs fill open slots. While I cant directly use these numbers in calculations from item #2, roughly 30% of US MD seniors are who eligible for SOAP get placed while US-IMGs are roughly 3% or 10 times less. In short, almost no US IMGs get a post match placement.

In sum, the residency matching/placing data would indicate that US-IMGs have an overall placement rate at 40% or a little bit more, while US-MD Seniors have a placement rate at 94%-95% (counting Match and SOAP).

*****Source Data

www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2017.pdf#page=23
View attachment 232562

View attachment 232563

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2017.pdf#page=57
View attachment 232565
Click to expand...

Thanks for this. These statistics are scary.

@orgonogo , this is my commentary on @gonnif's analysis:

While there might or might not be a sliver of truth to the "you can probably rank as a US IMG if you score a 260 on Step 1" argument, my question is, why on earth would you want to put yourself at that kind of risk by banking on getting a 260? Step 1 is the MCAT on steroids. You'll be competing against thousands of exceptionally talented and hard-working people. I don't care if you're Einstein, that's a bad gamble to make, especially if you have the opportunity to potentially get into a US DO/MD medical school and at least secure an even playing field for yourself.

Wu wei: don't make life any harder for yourself than it needs to be; if you're hoping to become a physician, it's going to be more than challenging enough as it is. While it might seem like it would be lower stress to go to school in your family's motherland, you have to weigh that against the potential stress of realizing later in life that you want to practice in the US, or frankly, that you want to earn the salary of a US residency grad, which is substantially more in India and the UAE. Unlike physicians from most other countries, US residency graduates earn more and don't have to take the local licensing exam to practice in Dubai. A US medical education means you have a 90%+ shot at relative freedom to live and practice wherever you want when you're older.

If you're going to do something, why not do it as optimally as you can? Which, based on your excellent stats, I'm guessing is a perspective that you share.

Thank you, @gonnif, for the evidence-based analysis.
 
Last edited:
jmoney22 said:
I am basically in the same boat. I'm looking at going to Europe, am bilingual and have traveled there about 6 times. I just think that going abroad offers a cultural opportunity that the US doesn't. I'd rather be in Europe happy than getting into school in the US in a state I don't like feeling trapped for what should be the best years of my life (my 20s). I know some family friends that were able to come back to the US without any problems. At the end of the day, I have always wanted to see the world and have always wanted to be a doctor. I am not scared of the adventure and ending up somewhere other than the US, which a lot of people from the US who are scared to take chances won't understand. It matters what YOU will be happy with when you look back on your life. Yes, coming back to the USA would be cool you'd make way more money, but a doctor once told me, if you want to be happy and if you really want to make a lot of money, go into hospital administration not being the actual doctor. And yes, the stats are scary but that doesn't mean you won't be in the percentage that gets a residency back in the US. Best of luck!!
Click to expand...

Lol this is the dumbest post I’ve read in a while.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Not all foreign schools are created equal. The kind that IMGs typically go to yes are terrible options for residency. If you happen to go to one of the top foreign schools then the joke is on you because at that point you could have just gone to a top school here.
Click to expand...
That's not true, it's easier to get accepted into German medical schools as a foreigner, since they have places reserved for international students who don't go through the grueling process of getting a perfect abitur from German school. That's just one example.
 
DubbiDoctor said:
Only go to med school in Europe if you are certain you would prefer to practice in Europe, presumably in the country at which you attend med school. There are no other factors to consider. COA means nothing when you're 50% less likely to match and be able to practice medicine in the US. Years of your life essentially wasted, just at a lower price than if you wasted them at an expensive Caribbean school. The alleged less stressful atmosphere will mean little compared to the stress of never being able to be a doctor in the US. Unless you know you want to practice in Europe, don't go the IMG route. Don't make what would be the biggest mistake of your life.
Click to expand...
With one correction- you really don't need to practice in the country you studied in. Lucky for me, since I wont stay in eastern Europe a minute longer than I have to. You have plenty of opportunities to move to a western country after graduating and the main requirement is speaking the language reasonably well. Right now Germany is in need of most specialties, but I don't know if it will last till op has graduated.
 
Blackdogue said:
That's not true, it's easier to get accepted into German medical schools as a foreigner, since they have places reserved for international students who don't go through the grueling process of getting a perfect abitur from German school. That's just one example.
Click to expand...

Blackdogue said:
With one correction- you really don't need to practice in the country you studied in. Lucky for me, since I wont stay in eastern Europe a minute longer than I have to. You have plenty of opportunities to move to a western country after graduating and the main requirement is speaking the language reasonably well. Right now Germany is in need of most specialties, but I don't know if it will last till op has graduated.
Click to expand...

Lol
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Your comments are terrible lol
Click to expand...
I mean how would you even know if my comments are terrible? Aren't you American? What about what I said is wrong? That Germany has places reserved for international students or that it has a lack of doctors? A simple Google search can confirm both.
 
gonnif said:
Just a word of caution, while it appears that Germany has a path for international students who attend their medical schools to become physicians in their country, other European schools specifically have prohibitions for this. This is particularly true for some of the English language programs at established medical universities. Often these programs are separate and distinct entities from the actual university. The basically just use the name.

Additionally some of these programs are not recognized by the Medical Board of California which makes their graduates ineligible for licenses in the state. For example, the Sofia Faculty of Medicine, which has an English language program, is only recognized for the Bulgarian program. Medical boards in several other states have formal policy to follow the California list.
Medical Schools Recognized | Medical Board of California
Click to expand...
Well, what do you know, my program made the list. Anyway, as a recent graduate of one of these English programs, and having done my exchange semester in another one of these and generally knowing a lot of people in different programs, I can safely say that the Sofia situation you mentioned isn't the rule. Most programs I know about, including mine, are identical with the local program in every way. Same teachers, same buildings, same hospitals, same exams just translated. Of course you should always check, especially if the English program is very new, but most of them are recognised in the U.S. and most of the world.
 
Blackdogue said:
Well, what do you know, my program made the list. Anyway, as a recent graduate of one of these English programs, and having done my exchange semester in another one of these and generally knowing a lot of people in different programs, I can safely say that the Sofia situation you mentioned isn't the rule. Most programs I know about, including mine, are identical with the local program in every way. Same teachers, same buildings, same hospitals, same exams just translated. Of course you should always check, especially if the English program is very new, but most of them are recognised in the U.S. and most of the world.
Click to expand...
Oh scratch the last sentence there's actually many that aren't recognized. I just read that the English program has to be specifically mentioned.
 
gonnif said:
Just a word of caution, while it appears that Germany has a path for international students who attend their medical schools to become physicians in their country, other European schools specifically have prohibitions for this. This is particularly true for some of the English language programs at established medical universities. Often these programs are separate and distinct entities from the actual university. The basically just use the name.

Additionally some of these programs are not recognized by the Medical Board of California which makes their graduates ineligible for licenses in the state. For example, the Sofia Faculty of Medicine, which has an English language program, is only recognized for the Bulgarian program. Medical boards in several other states have formal policy to follow the California list.
Medical Schools Recognized | Medical Board of California
Click to expand...
World Directory of Medical Schools
the world directory of medical schools, lists most of the English programs that are not included in the California list as ecfmg eligible. Does that not mean they are recognized?
 
jmoney22 said:
I am basically in the same boat. I'm looking at going to Europe, am bilingual and have traveled there about 6 times. I just think that going abroad offers a cultural opportunity that the US doesn't. I'd rather be in Europe happy than getting into school in the US in a state I don't like feeling trapped for what should be the best years of my life (my 20s). I know some family friends that were able to come back to the US without any problems. At the end of the day, I have always wanted to see the world and have always wanted to be a doctor. I am not scared of the adventure and ending up somewhere other than the US, which a lot of people from the US who are scared to take chances won't understand. It matters what YOU will be happy with when you look back on your life. Yes, coming back to the USA would be cool you'd make way more money, but a doctor once told me, if you want to be happy and if you really want to make a lot of money, go into hospital administration not being the actual doctor. And yes, the stats are scary but that doesn't mean you won't be in the percentage that gets a residency back in the US. Best of luck!!
Click to expand...

This is what is known as magical thinking. It's not a good trait.
 
gonnif said:
That is correct. Graduates of these schools are not eligible for residency or physican’s license in California and several other states that formally use the California list.


Medical Schools Recognized | Medical Board of California
To be eligible for a Postgraduate Training Letter (PTAL) or Physician’s and Surgeon’s license, applicants must have received all of their medical school education from and graduated from a medical school recognized or approved by the Medical Board of California (with the exception listed below). The medical school’s name must exactly match the name on the Board’s list of recognized medical schools.
Click to expand...
So basically you can get licensed in another state and work there for four years before you get licensed in a state that follows California?
 
Blackdogue said:
I mean how would you even know if my comments are terrible? Aren't you American? What about what I said is wrong? That Germany has places reserved for international students or that it has a lack of doctors? A simple Google search can confirm both.
Click to expand...
The OP stats are competitive enough for US MD school, so it's kind of hard to take anything else seriously.
 
Out of curiosity, what are the European schools you are considering?
 
OP, If you passed the MCAT, i truly hope that you still have the same brain. You can't predict the future, do not gamble your life away!
 
Trollest said:
OP, If you passed the MCAT, i truly hope that you still have the same brain. You can't predict the future, do not gamble your life away!
Click to expand...
Throw your life away? That's a bit dramatic. OP already said he doesn't mind living in Europe, and believe it or not, it can be really sweet to live as a doctor in Europe. I agree he should go to a US school if he can, you guys have the best medicine in the world, no doubt, and it's easier to move to Europe than vice versa, but he's not throwing his life away he can have a good life either way. Do you think we live in the third world?
 
Blackdogue said:
Throw your life away? That's a bit dramatic. OP already said he doesn't mind living in Europe, and believe it or not, it can be really sweet to live as a doctor in Europe. I agree he should go to a US school if he can, you guys have the best medicine in the world, no doubt, and it's easier to move to Europe than vice versa, but he's not throwing his life away he can have a good life either way. Do you think we live in the third world?
Click to expand...
Not at all, I am having a very, like a very hard time finding the rationale behind his plan. Family?? No way a family member, nor my mom could make study in another country when i have the chnave to attend a Top tier medical school. Also 6 years from now, it would be extremely difficulty for OP to match to the US but then again you said that he doesn't mind practicing in Europe.

And OP, i wish you luck.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top