Are optometrists physicians?

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mupreopt

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Are optometrists physicians?
I always thought they were.
Then after doing some reading, some say yes, some say no.
Then I saw this video from collegegrad.com which states "optometrists are not physicians . . .": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXUDAET3acA
So I e-mailed collegegrad.com and the president e-mailed me with the following (copy and paste from my e-mail):

Ophthalmologists are physicians. Optometrists are not.


Brian Krueger
President
CollegeGrad.com, Inc.
The #1 Entry Level Job Site


So What's the real answer?

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Not that Wikipedia is the best source ever but:

"
The word physician applies to a person who practices some type of medicine. Such medical practitioners are concerned with maintaining or restoring human health through the study, diagnosis and treatment of disease and injury, through both their area of knowledge of body systems, their diseases and treatment — the science of medicine — and their applied practice of that knowledge— the art or craft of medicine."

So, yes.
 
In the modern world, physician is more of an adjective than title. Many states have taken the title optometric physician for insurance puropses. Because they are legally recognized with the title, does it make them physicians?

To me, a person legally entitled to independently diagnosis and treat medical conditions should be considered a physician otherwise, what does the title mean? That you completed allopathic medical school? If so, I know a lot of DOs that will have to stop calling themselves physicians.
 
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The term "optometric physician" is a recent creation, and in general is interchangeable with the term "optometrist." In the medical community, "physician"= MD/DO.
 
I'm so relieved.....we haven't had a thread like this in quite some time. I was starting to get withdrawal.

Of course....the veterans on this forum know where it's heading....👎

Agreed. This thread needs to be shut down ASAP.
 
I'm assuming a similar thread caused alot of argument/controversy?

I would delete for you but I don't have the "delete" button/option.
 
Agreed. This thread needs to be shut down ASAP.

Why? Because some resident will come on outraged and start trashing us? So what. We need to not be so meek and this was a simple question with a complicated answer.
 
Why? Because some resident will come on outraged and start trashing us? So what. We need to not be so meek and this was a simple question with a complicated answer.


Has nothing to do with meekness. It has everything to do with the fact that this topic has been discussed ad nauseum on here numerous times. It is pointless to bring it up again because no one's mind is going to be changed. It's like saying "Hey! I think that abortion really ain't that bad" at a Mike Huckabee rally, or "Hey! Bush is kind of a cool guy!" at an Obama rally.

If someone is interested in whether optometrists are "physicians" or not, then they are free to search these forums, where they will be regailed with countless reasons why they are or aren't, usually by people who merely thump their dictionaries. A completely pointless thread and one which I hope dies quickly.
 
Why? Because some resident will come on outraged and start trashing us? So what. We need to not be so meek and this was a simple question with a complicated answer.

It has nothing to do with being scared of the residents. It's just that these threads usually deteriote quickly into a pissing match between the "real" physicians and the ODs. It's happened every time this subject has come up.
 
Any MDs around here that want to bring it on? :laugh:

I'll put my Dx at Tx skills up against any of ya'll........Oh sorry, having a flashback.
 
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Setting aside various "technical" definitions of physician, the better question is, what is the "legal" definition of physician. Most states have a medical practice statute that clearly defines physician. In Michigan, my home state for example, MCL 333.17001 states that ONLY a licensed MD, DO, or podiatrist (DPM) is considered a physician under the Michigan Public Health Code and Michigan Compliled Laws Annotated. Legally, under the Michigan Medical Practice Act, therefore, only an MD, DO, or DPM is considered a physician. These professions ONLY treat HUMAN patients. Thus, vets cannot be physicians under the MI statute.

If an optometrist stated he/she was an optometric physician or physician in Michigan, he/she would be subject to misrepresentation and unauthorized practice of medicine charges and possible loss of license with pecuniary sanctions. MCL 333.17401 clearly states optometry is not the pratice of medicine, osteopathic medicine, or podiatric medicine. Likewise, chiros, dentists, psychologists, and other like professionals are NOT physicians in MI.

However, in some states, like Washington and Oregon, the legal definition of physician, I believe, includes: chiropractors (chiropractic physicians), optometrists (optometric physicians), psychologists (psychological physicians), and naturopaths from licensed ND schools (naturopathic physicians), and, I believe oral-maxofacial surgeons (the DDS only kind), who completed an OMFS residency, are also considered "physicians and surgeons" under those respective medical practice acts.

In WA and OR, an OD who says he's a physician (most likely with the qualifier "optometric") would be compliant with the law and not misleading, but if he moved to Michigan or other such strict MD/DO/DPM states, he'd be breaking the law and misleading the public.

I believe a few states define physician as MD, DO, and dentists (not pods); others, MD, DO, DPM, and dentists; and a few, only MD and DO. It wasn't all that long ago when DOs were not considered "physicians" in some states, but merely "osteopaths" under a different regulatory schema. In fact, it was only as recently as the 1960s and 1970s that DOs were given full medical practice rights in all states. Before that, they had special hospitals, restricted RxPs, and limits on their authority.

Interestingly, the legal definition of "surgeon" is often less restricted than physician, even though this seems somewhat contrary to logic (you'd think there would be stricter definitions for those who invade the body, but...). In many states, pods without specialized surgical residencies, and general dentists, can legally claim to be "podiatric physicians and surgeons/podiatric surgeons" or "oral surgeons" or "dental surgeons" without being an oral surgeon. If they passed themselves off as physicians, they might be in trouble, but surgeons...no problem!

Not meant to inflame the ODs, but I would think you'd be better off as optometrists without the physician moniker...why add the liability that the term creates? If you use that term, and it misleads others, whether intentionally or not, you could be held to the reasonable prudent standard of care of an OMD (physician), not an OD in a negligence suit.

Furthermore, I think the term is overused and misused. Chiros love to claim that chiropractic is merely another form of medicine like allopathic, osteopathic, and podiatric medicine. It's not a systemic field of medicine; rather it is a very specialized non-evidence based treatment modality, not a philosophical school of medicine. What's next: Psychological physician (PsyD, PhD), pharmaceutical physician (PharmD), nursing physician (NP), physician assistant physician (PA-C), veterinary physicians (DVM), physical therapy physician (DPT, MPT), audiometric physician (AuD), and for those Juris Doctors in the house, Legal Physicians (JD). Point: it can be overused and abused.

So, I would, an optometrist, like an MD, DO, PhD, vet, pharmacist, psychologist, dentist, and even a lawyer, is a "doctor", but may not legally be defined as a physician.
 
Not meant to inflame the ODs, but I would think you'd be better off as optometrists without the physician moniker...why add the liability that the term creates? If you use that term, and it misleads others, whether intentionally or not, you could be held to the reasonable prudent standard of care of an OMD (physician), not an OD in a negligence suit.
Thank you Zack for a non-confrontational response. I want to respond to the above quote, because I think it is a reasonable question. I believe the reason OD's fought for the right to call themselves optometric physicians was in response to insurance companies only allowng physicians on their panels. In Washington, once the AWP legislation passed the need for the physician moniker went away as we cannot be excluded from a panel based soley on the fact that we are optometrists.

To further clarify, I do not believe I can promote myself as a physician (nor would I) without using the term optometric. That would be a violation of state law. As to your point about being held to the reasonable prudent standard of care of an OMD, we are already held to that standard within the legal scope of practice of an OD even without the physician moniker. Being called an optometric physician has not changed that.
 
Thank you Zack for a non-confrontational response. I want to respond to the above quote, because I think it is a reasonable question. I believe the reason OD's fought for the right to call themselves optometric physicians was in response to insurance companies only allowng physicians on their panels. In Washington, once the AWP legislation passed the need for the physician moniker went away as we cannot be excluded from a panel based soley on the fact that we are optometrists.

To further clarify, I do not believe I can promote myself as a physician (nor would I) without using the term optometric. That would be a violation of state law. As to your point about being held to the reasonable prudent standard of care of an OMD, we are already held to that standard within the legal scope of practice of an OD even without the physician moniker. Being called an optometric physician has not changed that.


Makes perfect sense then -- you used the term to beat the insurance companies at their parsnickety word game. However, I believe in WA, if you used the term physician without the qualified "optometric", based on your medical practice act (which is a fairly liberal one, I believe), you'd be okay, although you should CYA by adding "optometric". If you moved to Michigan and forgot, you'd be up Sh|t's creek without a paddle.

I remember reading something, a few years back, about psychologists with RxPs*(Rx privileges, which some PhD/PsyD psychologists have in NM, LA, and a few other states) in NM or LA, being reclassified as "physicians" for insurance purposes just like you described with ODs in WA. A prescribing psychologist was therefore classified as a physician, under that state's medical practice statute, but an oral surgeon who did invasive oral surgery, and an OMFS, who was not also an MD/DO**, and also did extensive oral surgery, was not.

Ain't life funny sometimes?

* - In a few states, doctorally trained CLINICAL psychologists, who have undergone extensive post-doc training in pharm, physical assessment, clinical labs, and neuroanatomy (usually amounting to an MS in psychopharm), can prescribe from various schedules of psychotropic meds.

** - Oral-maxillofacial surgeons can be (A) dentists who undergo extensive medical-surgical training in a 4 year post DDS residency; or (B) DDS grads who attend an "abbreviated" med school and earn an MD as part of their OMS residency. Type B OMFS are both physicians and dentists under many state practice acts, whereas Type A OMFS are typically classified as dentists, but can also be included as physicians based on the nature of their work. In other words, Type B's are dual licensed, so it doesn't matter what the statute says: they can do it all (oral or otherwise). Type A's might be licensed as dentists, but legally classified as physicians based on their actual work.
 
** - Oral-maxillofacial surgeons can be (A) dentists who undergo extensive medical-surgical training in a 4 year post DDS residency; or (B) DDS grads who attend an "abbreviated" med school and earn an MD as part of their OMS residency. Type B OMFS are both physicians and dentists under many state practice acts, whereas Type A OMFS are typically classified as dentists, but can also be included as physicians based on the nature of their work. In other words, Type B's are dual licensed, so it doesn't matter what the statute says: they can do it all (oral or otherwise). Type A's might be licensed as dentists, but legally classified as physicians based on their actual work.

This system makes so much sense its crazy. I don't know why optometry and ophthalmology did not develop this way. I truly believe that ophthalmic surgery should be a 3 year post OD residency.
 
FWIW, I think it's interesting how the term has become so definitional. I have to wonder what the facination with the word actually is...I'm sure it's partially ego driven. Do I consider myself a physician? Not sure, I certainly don't call myself a physician (or optometric physician) nor would I advertise that way. I'm an optometrist and although I do practice medicine as do all ODs, but does that make me a physician? For that matter, in Texas I'm titled an Optometric Glaucoma Specialist...so what, I still call myself an optometrist.

FWIW, I can't think of a case where we would not be held to the legal standard of practice of an OMD from a malpractice perspective. If there are any out there, THAT would be interesting to talk about.
 
Folks,
In my personal opinion, no matter how you look at it. How you slice it. Optometrists are not considered physicians. Case closed. The term optometric physician is bogus in my opinion. I am not being biased and I do not hate Optometry. On the contrary, I enjoy it very much.
I am a realist. I look at the way things are and try to accept them.
Do any of you have any idea how ophthalmologists feel or react when OD's refer themselves as optometric physicians?
Answer: They laugh. They might not show it in front of us acting professional but they crack up.
Trust me.
 
Folks,
In my personal opinion, no matter how you look at it. How you slice it. Optometrists are not considered physicians. Case closed. The term optometric physician is bogus in my opinion. I am not being biased and I do not hate Optometry. On the contrary, I enjoy it very much.
I am a realist. I look at the way things are and try to accept them.
Do any of you have any idea how ophthalmologists feel or react when OD's refer themselves as optometric physicians?
Answer: They laugh. They might not show it in front of us acting professional but they crack up.
Trust me.

I bet bet $10 that they don't crack up because they don't even condescend themselves to even think about optometrists.

In any event, I agree with the premise that optometrists aren't physicians. I practice in a state where that terminology isn't used, but the few collegues I have visited in other states who do use the title "optometric physician" use it for 3rd party billing and credentialling only. When you visit their office, the words optometry, optometrist, doctor of optometry, etc. etc is all over their forms, literature, and advertising. The word physician appears no where. Are there a few ODs who fall victim to the idea of puffing themselves up by using the word physician?? Proabably....but I've never seen it.
 
Folks,
In my personal opinion, no matter how you look at it. How you slice it. Optometrists are not considered physicians. Case closed. The term optometric physician is bogus in my opinion. I am not being biased and I do not hate Optometry. On the contrary, I enjoy it very much.
I am a realist. I look at the way things are and try to accept them.
Do any of you have any idea how ophthalmologists feel or react when OD's refer themselves as optometric physicians?
Answer: They laugh. They might not show it in front of us acting professional but they crack up.
Trust me.
I'll go even further than Ken. I bet $100 that you spend more time worrying about what ophthalmologists think about optometrists than we even enter their minds. Aside from this forum and in legislative battles, OMD's don't give OD's a second thought. One of my best friends is an ophthalmologist. I assure you he is more concerned about my racquetball serve than he is about how I practice or what I call myself.
 
Who gives a rat's ass about what ophthalmologists think hello07? Dr. Hello07, Optometric Physician, you are in the greatest profession! (I can hear one of you saying ---he has no idea LOL) I have several close friends of which 2 are ophthalmologists, 2 are internists, 1 cardiologist, and one surgeon. Their consensus opinion about the "optometric physician" term is as follows-----> "as long as you are well-trained and don't want to do complex eye surgery then we don't care." They want to make money and could care less what you call yourself! THIS IS THE TRUTH:luck: Hello07, you could call yourself "Highly trained Optical Technician with therapeutic authority, Optical Shayman, The Glasses Guy, Optobot, Contact Lens Dispenser, I used to be a Jewler 125 yrs ago, etc!" You seem like a cool guy but I really think you should have got the MD---I don't want it!
Regarding the topic at hand, there are dozens of states that allow the "optometric physician" designation. And a few state organizations that have that moniker!

http://oaop.org/index.php

http://www.njsop.org/

http://www.oregonoptometry.org/index.asp

http://www.akoa.org/

http://www.eyeod.org/

WOW thee must be a lot of laughing ophthalmologists! Have a little "stiff upper lip!" 😀

My future shingle will read "Dr. So and So O.D.
Optometric Physician"

and while OMD's can laugh all they want---I will be laughing all the way to the bank$$$$$$$, Face to face they will call me doctor and I will do likewise to them---the public will be none the wiser. We will all be happy!

As Indiana OD has pointed out in prior posts, you are doing the SAME thing as an ophthalmologist is in primary eye care (non-surgical) situations. I am even being trained in ophthalmic lasers in optometry school (training to use them eventually.) When will some unhappy OD's stop thinking that they are second rate eye doctors secretly wishing they were ophthalmologists? :laugh: I did 3 years of shadowing and working in this field before I went to optometry school--->at my interview they said, "you are the most educated person, regarding optometry, we have ever interviewed." Optometry is what it is and many of us LIKE IT. It is a privilege and a very respectable station in life and I admire all of you KHE, Hello07, and Dr. Chundler for being Optometrists. I will be proud when I am there.


Future Optometric Physician
(who loves optometry, optics, pharmacology, eye disease, refraction, and yes---dealing with people in a business setting)
 
For those of you wanting this original post deleted, I have contacted sdn yesterday but it has not been deleted yet.
 
Greetings Oculomotor,
Thanks for enlighting me with your words of wisdom " I am in the greatest profession." How about that. An optometry student telling a 15 year veteran that. Gee thanks!
Do you actually believe you are going to be performing iridotomies, Pan Retinal Photo for proliferative diabetic retinopathy, treating holes or tears or clearing opacities of the posterior capsule after cataract surgery using YAG?
Where are you going to practice Oklahoma or maybe in another state or two in the hillbilly boomdocks away from ophthalmology? Don't kid yourselve.
As much as we all love Optometry and practice it to the best of our ability and according to each state law, you think too highly of yourself especially NOW as a student.
You will wake up one day 5-10 -15 years and realize you are an Optometrist. Not a optometric physician.
Pleasant dreams. Look up inferiority complex. Webster's definition.
 
Greetings Oculomotor,
Thanks for enlighting me with your words of wisdom " I am in the greatest profession." How about that. An optometry student telling a 15 year veteran that. Gee thanks!
Do you actually believe you are going to be performing iridotomies, Pan Retinal Photo for proliferative diabetic retinopathy, treating holes or tears or clearing opacities of the posterior capsule after cataract surgery using YAG?
Where are you going to practice Oklahoma or maybe in another state or two in the hillbilly boomdocks away from ophthalmology? Don't kid yourselve.
As much as we all love Optometry and practice it to the best of our ability and according to each state law, you think too highly of yourself especially NOW as a student.
You will wake up one day 5-10 -15 years and realize you are an Optometrist. Not a optometric physician.
Pleasant dreams. Look up inferiority complex. Webster's definition.

Hmm.. to me an OD is the only true EYE DOCTOR. Maybe better as VISION DOCTOR. No disrespect to OMDs, many of whom are good at cutting into eyes, but their training does not cover the entire visual process in any degree near to optometry. I like the apprenticeship type training they get, but as far as I know they know very little about the optics of the eye, visual perception, and binocular vision.

Besides perhaps neurophthalmolgy they have more of a technical aspect. To me it takes just as much to determine what needs done as it actually takes to do it. For example, once a cataract is determined ready for extraction and an IOL master tells what to put in, the actual cataract surgery is a techincal task and much less a mental one.

A doctor is someone who has a terminal degree in a specific subject. That is exactly what an optometrist is as relates to the eye. At least the optomterist who choose to practice like a doctor.
 
For those of you wanting this original post deleted, I have contacted sdn yesterday but it has not been deleted yet.

All you had to do was ask! You can ask one of the three Optometry Forum mods - myself, cpw, and r_salis.

This thread is now closed per OP's request.
 
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