Are public universities more professional than private schools?

[LivingOffLoans]

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Hi all,

So, I really worked hard in undergraduate school, had a great GPA, joined clubs, did volunteer and research work, etc... all because I knew from the start I wanted to go to graduate school for psychology, and that I wanted to be a psychotherapist at the very least.

There was one particular school, a private school, that I had my eyes on for a couple of years. It was supposedly one of the best schools in the northeast. I had met a couple of doctoral graduates from there, even done therapy with one, and they seemed pretty legit. I was convinced that this was THE school for me.

Fast forward to now, where I am enrolled in the school and literally gave up my entire life to move here for it. I have to say, I am absolutely shocked at how unprofessional their student body is. I mean, SHOCKED! I have met more than just a handful of overtly sexist people, some of whom have taken up issue with me because I am a feminist. Really? A number of men there are practicing pickup artists. Others show complete disrespect and misunderstanding of others, and rally in numbers against minorities (this is mostly covert, but the collusion is obvious). Another student, who attended a house party that my roommate threw, came into my bedroom at 3:00 am in the dark and wandered toward my bed. Supposedly she was making out with some guy a little while before or after. I'm guessing she wanted something from me. I just can't believe people actually do this **** in graduate school!!! It is totally ruining my experience. I know it shouldn't, but it is so ubiquitous that I can't ignore it. It's like the freakin' Jersey Shore culture landed at my school or something.

That is just the student body. Let's talk about the actual school now. I was told that my PLUS loan would be disbursed at the end of August, but it wasn't given until anyone until a week into September, creating all kinds of problems with rent and buying books. Oh yes, the books. The books which I ordered as soon as I got my loan money two weeks ago and still have not come in yet, putting me severely behind in a couple of courses. And I can't rent them out of the library because I am at my internship all day when I'm not at school, and the library closes early. And when you are there, you only have them up to two hours at a time. Once the school got my money, they didn't seem to care that much about my financial needs and were slow to respond to my requests for assistance. When they finally did approve my request for an additional $2,000 (I specifically told them I was concerned about the fall semester), they surprised me and said that I would only get an extra $1,000 each semester...which kind of defeats the purpose. It's as if they didn't even read or listen to anything I said prior.

The only good thing about my program is the actual education. But here's the thing, I could just read these articles and textbooks on my own without this school. Plus, the classes are all discussion, and the assignments are all papers. It's as if we are teaching ourselves and everyone else gets a buck out of us. I am severely disappointed.

Phew, deep breath...

I apologize for the tangent, but I needed to air it out somewhere. Now, let me ask a question...

I went to an excellent university for my B.A. For some reason, I assumed the master's program in private schools were better since they were typically more clinically focused. But they just seem so unprofessional. I'm wondering if anyone has insight into whether or not the public university route is a better, more professional, more legit means of obtaining a graduate education? I am strongly considering applying to Clinical Psych PhD programs at public universities now and terminating my masters program early, and just earn a masters en route to my PhD or something.

For the sake of anonymity, I will not name the private school I am attending. But as you can tell, I haven't exactly had the best experience there, which is really unfortunate. I want to gain my education in a highly professional and ethical arena that challenges me intellectually, where only select students are admitted, who are very professional and devoted to learning. This place, just feels like a degree mill. Sad.

 

[erg923]

Hi all,

So, I really worked hard in undergraduate school, had a great GPA, joined clubs, did volunteer and research work, etc... all because I knew from the start I wanted to go to graduate school for psychology, and that I wanted to be a psychotherapist at the very least.

There was one particular school, a private school, that I had my eyes on for a couple of years. It was supposedly one of the best schools in the northeast. I had met a couple of doctoral graduates from there, even done therapy with one, and they seemed pretty legit. I was convinced that this was THE school for me.

Fast forward to now, where I am enrolled in the school and literally gave up my entire life to move here for it. I have to say, I am absolutely shocked at how unprofessional their student body is. I mean, SHOCKED! I have met more than just a handful of overtly sexist people, some of whom have taken up issue with me because I am a feminist. Really? A number of men there are practicing pickup artists. Others show complete disrespect and misunderstanding of others, and rally in numbers against minorities (this is mostly covert, but the collusion is obvious). Another student, who attended a house party that my roommate threw, came into my bedroom at 3:00 am in the dark and wandered toward my bed. Supposedly she was making out with some guy a little while before or after. I'm guessing she wanted something from me. I just can't believe people actually do this **** in graduate school!!! It is totally ruining my experience. I know it shouldn't, but it is so ubiquitous that I can't ignore it. It's like the freakin' Jersey Shore culture landed at my school or something.

That is just the student body. Let's talk about the actual school now. I was told that my PLUS loan would be disbursed at the end of August, but it wasn't given until anyone until a week into September, creating all kinds of problems with rent and buying books. Oh yes, the books. The books which I ordered as soon as I got my loan money two weeks ago and still have not come in yet, putting me severely behind in a couple of courses. And I can't rent them out of the library because I am at my internship all day when I'm not at school, and the library closes early. And when you are there, you only have them up to two hours at a time. Once the school got my money, they didn't seem to care that much about my financial needs and were slow to respond to my requests for assistance. When they finally did approve my request for an additional $2,000 (I specifically told them I was concerned about the fall semester), they surprised me and said that I would only get an extra $1,000 each semester...which kind of defeats the purpose. It's as if they didn't even read or listen to anything I said prior.

The only good thing about my program is the actual education. But here's the thing, I could just read these articles and textbooks on my own without this school. Plus, the classes are all discussion, and the assignments are all papers. It's as if we are teaching ourselves and everyone else gets a buck out of us. I am severely disappointed.

Phew, deep breath...

I apologize for the tangent, but I needed to air it out somewhere. Now, let me ask a question...

I went to an excellent university for my B.A. For some reason, I assumed the master's program in private schools were better since they were typically more clinically focused. But they just seem so unprofessional. I'm wondering if anyone has insight into whether or not the public university route is a better, more professional, more legit means of obtaining a graduate education? I am strongly considering applying to Clinical Psych PhD programs at public universities now and terminating my masters program early, and just earn a masters en route to my PhD or something.

For the sake of anonymity, I will not name the private school I am attending. But as you can tell, I haven't exactly had the best experience there, which is really unfortunate. I want to gain my education in a highly professional and ethical arena that challenges me intellectually, where only select students are admitted, who are very professional and devoted to learning. This place, just feels like a degree mill. Sad.

If you are right out of undergrad, chances are you are 22 or 23. I do not find the attitudes nor the drunken frolicking to be much out of the norm for that age range. I cant say I was overly senstive to womens issues at that age, and I certainly liked to have a good time. Also, I am sure you are a fantastic, mature student and all, but it IS a masters program mind you...its not until you get into Ph.D. programs that you start seeing a whole different type of people. And even then dont think you are going to be totally immune from seeing bad behavior. Closed mindedness, drunken escapades, backstabbing, interdepartmental politics and pissing contests still exist in the ivory tower. This is who we are.

Lastly, a institution of higer learning with an admin that wants your money, views you as little more than a number on enrollment statistics sheet, and has stupid policies...SHOCKING!! 🙄

 

[LivingOffLoans]

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[IHrtHealthPsych]

For now, I feel like I'm mostly hanging around a bunch of kids.

I feel like that in my master's program, too (I'm in my mid-30's, I feel OLD). I feel like that around PhD/PsyD students, too, quite frankly--except at least they act like they are more mature, to play the part.

 

[erg923]

Ethics are HUGE to me. I want to have colleagues that hold themselves to a higher standard. For now, I feel like I'm mostly hanging around a bunch of kids.

Well, they are to me too. But keep in mind, for the most part, the APA ethics code applies to your professional life and your interactions with patients. There are plenty of "good" people in this profession that have narcissistic drives (this is adaptive in academia), dogmatic views of the world, or who arent very "warm and fuzzy." This is just the variety of personalities in the world, and I think its unfair and unrealistic to expect psychology to be limited to superhumans with GAFs in the 90s. 😀

 

[Ollie123]

I'm not aware of any public-private distinction, though there is huge variance in the caliber of private schools as they are some of the best and some of the worst schools.

Don't ever expect to escape immaturity. You'll see it in college, you'll see it in graduate school, you'll see it in the professional world. I have friends working in many different environments and you see the same stupid crap from people in their 40's who still gossip like its middle school.

Doctoral programs will be somewhat different from master's programs...master's is the new undergrad and a ridiculous number of people are now pursuing master's degrees so I'm not sure the pool is going to be all that different.

RE: Ethics...there are professional ethics and there are personal ethics. I'm sure they are at least moderately correlated, but there are plenty of people in the world who wouldn't dream of doing a single thing wrong at their jobs, but won't think twice about getting wasted and cheating on their spouse with a coworker. When you get to the higher levels I do think you see less and less variability in professional ethics with more clustering at the top (though obviously not anything close to everyone), and while I expect you will probably see some change in personal ethics as well you are still going to see quite a range.

Grad school is not a safe haven from the real world. People suck and do terrible things all the time. If you are going into mental health, its something you will often need to convince clients of so its a good thing to learn yourself. Unless you plan on living in a hut in the woods isolated from humanity, you aren't going to get away from it.

 

[wigflip]

Sorry to hear your experience has been so negative. The culture in my (non-psych) doctoral program is pretty toxic, so I know how bad that sucks.

I could just read these articles and textbooks on my own without this school. Plus, the classes are all discussion, and the assignments are all papers. It's as if we are teaching ourselves and everyone else gets a buck out of us. I am severely disappointed.

I think this is one of the worst things about grad school, though I knew it going in (from talking to doctoral students in another field). "You teach yourself!" they said. I'm sure that isn't the universal experience, but I've been enrolled in two reasonably reputable grad programs and in both cases the degree seemed to be more about pedigree and alumni network than anything resembling rigorous clinical or academic training.

 

[paramour]

For now, I feel like I'm mostly hanging around a bunch of kids.

I feel like that in my master's program, too (I'm in my mid-30's, I feel OLD). I feel like that around PhD/PsyD students, too, quite frankly--except at least they act like they are more mature, to play the part.

+1. I feel like that in my doc program, and I have from day 1 (and I'm one of those them there "advanced" students at this point of my career).

Unfortunately, the folks in my program don't even pretend to act more mature. They simply honed their ability to bullsh*t that they are all-knowing when they're around others--not the same as maturity. 🙄

 

[LivingOffLoans]

Whoever said that master's programs are the new undergrad pretty much echoed how I feel, although I have to say that in undergrad, I didn't witness so much interpersonal drama and backstabbing as I do now in grad school. In undergrad, everyone just came in hung over (or freshly stoned), browsed facebook on their laptops, and skipped out on a quarter of the class meetings...but at least they were minding their own business. Not in my master's program though. It often feels like an intellectual competition where classmates are trying to one-up one another in the round-table class discussion, making passive-aggressive comments toward other classmates hidden in the narrative of intellectual inquiry. At times, it resembles mobbing behavior. At least if I were in a clinical PhD program, I might be learning something (eg: advanced research methods). The #1 gain I'm getting out of my master's program so far is the modeling of my faculty. But by large, I am still teaching myself.

I can't believe this is how it goes. This experience, and hearing the experiences of others, truly makes me disgusted. I am paying $30k a year to be emotionally and financially raped. Sometimes, I wonder if I should just drop out of school and start doing peace work instead, or like someone else mentioned, relocate somewhere closed off from civilization. The only thing that keeps me going is my desire to contribute to the field and be a professional advocate/helper.

 

[erg923]

Whoever said that master's programs are the new undergrad pretty much echoed how I feel, although I have to say that in undergrad, I didn't witness so much interpersonal drama and backstabbing as I do now in grad school. In undergrad, everyone just came in hung over (or freshly stoned), browsed facebook on their laptops, and skipped out on a quarter of the class meetings...but at least they were minding their own business. Not in my master's program though. It often feels like an intellectual competition where classmates are trying to one-up one another in the round-table class discussion, making passive-aggressive comments toward other classmates hidden in the narrative of intellectual inquiry. At times, it resembles mobbing behavior. At least if I were in a clinical PhD program, I might be learning something (eg: advanced research methods). The #1 gain I'm getting out of my master's program so far is the modeling of my faculty. But by large, I am still teaching myself.

I can't believe this is how it goes. This experience, and hearing the experiences of others, truly makes me disgusted. I am paying $30k a year to be emotionally and financially raped. Sometimes, I wonder if I should just drop out of school and start doing peace work instead, or like someone else mentioned, relocate somewhere closed off from civilization. The only thing that keeps me going is my desire to contribute to the field and be a professional advocate/helper.

Your situation does sound over the top/out of the norm though.

I also did a masters before my Ph.D. at a small, private (Catholic) university. However, I found nothing but amazing detail to teaching (since it was primarly a teaching rather than a resarch institution), and a cool, if somewhat eclectic, cohort of students. We we all ambitious but not overly intellectual. There was no "competition" really. We didnt really have anything to compete for at that time though. Like me, some have gone on to Ph.Ds, some have worked with masters, and one is now a firefighter. Now keep in mind, I wasnt married back then, so the occasional drunken hook-up amongst classmates was not a big deal for us. Plus, this was Miami. 😀

 

[wigflip]

It often feels like an intellectual competition where classmates are trying to one-up one another in the round-table class discussion, making passive-aggressive comments toward other classmates hidden in the narrative of intellectual inquiry. At times, it resembles mobbing behavior. At least if I were in a clinical PhD program, I might be learning something (eg: advanced research methods)...I can't believe this is how it goes.

What you're describing above is what my social science doctoral program is like, except the profs are just as unkind and inappropriate as the students. It's a matter of departmental culture, but from what I hear, it's not universal. We just got unlucky.

The chief value of your program may be in the pedigree and/or alumni network, rather than the training or the academic experience itself. If that's true, and if you can endure the institutionalized hazing, it might be worth sticking it out.

 

[LivingOffLoans]

The school is a private institution and is not well-known to others, not even to others in the field, so the alumni network is not worth it to me. I chose them because of a good counseling experience I had with someone who graduated from the school, and also the theoretical orientation appealed to me.

I am attempting to at least nip the bully-ish behavior so I can try to enjoy my learning experience. If the school doesn't support me in that, I don't know what I'll do. Maybe go above them if I have to.

wigflip, that is AWFUL to hear about the prof's. I have read some truly horrific stories regarding student:faculty interactions in graduate school. I had no idea this stuff happened until about a year ago when I started talking to more graduate students and reading around online. It bewilders me as to how this behavior is allowed. There should be some kind of overseeing of faculty and student relations. I hear that in PhD programs, it is especially bad. I'm surprised there has not been a national movement to actively resist the psychological abuse that goes on behind the scenes. It is unbelievable.

Where are the gatekeepers to this field? That's what I want to know!

 

[wigflip]

I am attempting to at least nip the bully-ish behavior so I can try to enjoy my learning experience. If the school doesn't support me in that, I don't know what I'll do. Maybe go above them if I have to.

I'd just be careful here. People who make waves in grad school are often regarded poorly. I'm not saying that standing up for yourself or others isn't the "right" or "good" thing to do, just that once you go down that path it can't be undone. Usually places with toxic cultures aren't too anxious to hear about how bad things are.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

 

[erg923]

wigflip, that is AWFUL to hear about the prof's. I have read some truly horrific stories regarding student:faculty interactions in graduate school. I had no idea this stuff happened until about a year ago when I started talking to more graduate students and reading around online. It bewilders me as to how this behavior is allowed. There should be some kind of overseeing of faculty and student relations. I hear that in PhD programs, it is especially bad. I'm surprised there has not been a national movement to actively resist the psychological abuse that goes on behind the scenes. It is unbelievable.

Where are the gatekeepers to this field? That's what I want to know!

Again, Im not sure it really worth getting your panties all in a bundle over. Plus, you need to remember that there is a big difference between being a hardass, having a little too much narccastic investment/drive, or being a little too disinhibted...and actually abusing students or doing grossly unethical things. There is no law against being an a-hole. It would be nice if all advisers sang you songs and helped you build a CV from the heavens (it really would...in a perfect world) but that's not how life is and that's not grad school should really function either.

That said, my ph.d program (and pretty much all ph,d programs that other friends of mine have attended) didn't have dysfunction to the level of what wigflip describes, nor of what you seem to be envisioning. However, that doesn't mean everyone was superfriendly or superhelpful either.

 

[LivingOffLoans]

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[Ollie123]

If you do bring it up to someone (which I'm not still not certain I would do in your situation, but that's your call), make sure you stick to things that are both clearly happening at school and are education-related.

If you overhear people making racist comments, that is one thing. The loan stuff is also obviously on the table for disussion. However, a school is not going to police these people's private lives so the fact that people are "Practicing pick-up artists", or wandered into your room at 3AM after a party are not things the school could (or should) involve themselves in.

 

[LivingOffLoans]

If you do bring it up to someone (which I'm not still not certain I would do in your situation, but that's your call), make sure you stick to things that are both clearly happening at school and are education-related.

If you overhear people making racist comments, that is one thing. The loan stuff is also obviously on the table for disussion. However, a school is not going to police these people's private lives so the fact that people are "Practicing pick-up artists", or wandered into your room at 3AM after a party are not things the school could (or should) involve themselves in.

Yeah, it's all in-class stuff.

 

[wigflip]

However, a school is not going to police these people's private lives so the fact that people are "Practicing pick-up artists", or wandered into your room at 3AM after a party are not things the school could (or should) involve themselves in.

Well, that depends. Female as well as male students should be protected from sexual harassment and sexual assault at school as well as at work. I'm not saying that what's described above meets legal definitions for those terms, but if there was a clear and persistent pattern of behavior it could, depending on the OP's state laws, as well as school policies. All that said, there's no guarantee the department will side with people who are legally in the right. We have a sexual harassment situation at my school and it appears that the alleged perpetrator is having a better go of it than the alleged victim, despite the putatively progressive stance of the department in question.

As far as someone that isn't my partner cruising towards my bed in the middle of the night--I can imagine finding that unsettling and frightening. I don't think it should be minimized.

 

[Ollie123]

No doubt true, but I didn't get the impression these "pick-up artists" were sexually harassing the OP...just that they were behaving in a way she deemed inappropriate in social settings. That's certainly unfortunate, but I can't imagine that qualifying as workplace sexual harassment anywhere.

I'm also not trying to minimize the bedroom incident and apologize if it came across that way. However, I think its wayyyy outside the schools role to become involved in things like that. That's a roommate problem for inviting people who would act like that over to the apartment. Our faculty are very understanding, but would probably just tell me to move if I was in that situation. I'm not sure what else could be done. Its one thing if the incident occurs in an undergraduate dorms...I'm a pretty laid back guy who avoids parties like the plague, but I don't want my school getting involved in the social lives of graduate students.

 

[wigflip]

to OP:
There may actually be an intermediate option--see if your school has an "ombudsman" to whom you can speak confidentially. That way you can talk to someone familiar with the institution and its procedures without committing yourself to a course of action which might result in you leaving (though it sounds like you are willing and ready to do so). If nothing else, the ombudsman might have suggestions for how best to approach your department.

No doubt true, but I didn't get the impression these "pick-up artists" were sexually harassing the OP...just that they were behaving in a way she deemed inappropriate in social settings. That's certainly unfortunate, but I can't imagine that qualifying as workplace sexual harassment anywhere.

I'm really not sure to what extent this varies with state law, but depending on the details of what she is describing, it's possible that what's happening could in fact qualify as a form of "hostile work environment" sexual harassment, even if OP isn't the intended recipient of unwanted sexual advances. OP mentions "sexist comments" and suggests it's a sexualized environment. From the school's perspective, the issue might not be whether or not the OP could actually win an SH case so much as whether she might bring one, so approaching admin about these issues might spark a willingness to do a sensitivity training or something of that nature, at the very least (or, as I suggest above, it might backfire).

OP, you've got fire in your belly, and if you're willing to lay it on the line to stand up for what you believe in, good for you.

 

[Ollie123]

If sexist comments are being made (I must have missed that) then yes, I agree with you - particularly if these are occurring at school/work. If they meet after work for drinks... maybe... but I think there is a lot more of a grey area there. That obviously doesn't mean I support people making comments like that, just that if it is occurring outside of school/work it gets a little too close to being the thought-police for my comfort.

I still maintain that its not the school's place to police how students are meeting non-students for dating/sexual encounters at off-campus social events when other uninvolved students may be present. That is primarily what I was trying to discourage the OP from mentioning and it sounds like she wasn't intending to bring it up anyways. Maybe I'm wrong and that would be fair game in a hostile workplace lawsuit. If so, I think that's abhorrent and another example of how our legal system in this country is a joke.

 

[LivingOffLoans]

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[Treatments]

Thanks for sharing this post.

 

[Ollie123]

Sounds like you've thought it through.

Best of luck! Hope the program is able to address these issues, and that it works out for the best for you either way.

 

[wigflip]

Sounds like you've thought it through.

Best of luck! Hope the program is able to address these issues, and that it works out for the best for you either way.

I'l second that. When you're done, please come visit my program and tell them they've got some issues to address as well...I'm too big of a chicken!!😳

Good luck (I'd love to hear an update if you feel inclined to post one and let us know how it went).