Are whites URM?

[Reagan2012]

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Are whites URM's in healthcare? Whites make up 73% of the population in the US, but only take up 67% of medical school slots. Doesn't this mean that they are underrepresented?

I mean if I went to Nigeria, I would expect most of the doctors there to be black. If I went to India, I would expect most of their doctors to be Indian. Shouldn't the US have mostly (73%) white doctors since this is the largest demographic?

 

[Haro4130Frame]

this wont end well...

 

[HeatherMD]

here's a shovel, so you can dig that hole for yourself faster.

maybe you could whistle a tune as you go down?

 

[xanthomondo]

this wont end well...

I like where it's going, though

 

[WannaBePreMed]

Lol OP you are so funny.

 

[MadEvans]

Are whites URM's in healthcare? Whites make up 73% of the population in the US, but only take up 67% of medical school slots. Doesn't this mean that they are underrepresented?

I mean if I went to Nigeria, I would expect most of the doctors there to be black. If I went to India, I would expect most of their doctors to be Indian. Shouldn't the US have mostly (73%) white doctors since this is the largest demographic?

I don't think 6% is a significant difference when were talking about percentagages in the 70s.

However, my brother has red hair and he joked about applying URM status. I wonder what the percentages are there... Ha.

 

[JeanLuc]

I think the dialogue here should focus on the country where the URM policy is in practice - the US.
One thing I've been trying to find is a full ethnic breakdown of US physicians to determine whether my ethnic group is under-represented.

White Hispanics are considered URM due to their belonging to the Hispanic ethnic category. I don't mean to point out the obvious, but I hope to illustrate a point. So, is it not reasonable that Whites that have strong identification with a specific ethnic group also be granted URM status as is done with White Hispanics?

I am a first-generation American (my family is from a Slavic state) and I culturally identify with my family's nation - e.g. fluent in the language, follow their national events, read their history, and visit the place every summer.

So my related question is: if my Slavic ethnic group is under-represented, would my identifying as URM be acceptable?

Also, if anyone has seen a full ethnic break-down of US physicians, please do let us know where we could also see it.

Thanks.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

First, I think the census statistics used to determine the percentage of white Americans likely includes many Hispanics as they are not considered a racial group. In other words, one may be both Hispanic and white. Why? Mainly because white isn't an incredibly useful category. (Hold your forearm next to one of your east Asian friend's forearms sometime...you might be surprised as to who is more white.)

Anyway, if we assume those 67% and 73% figures as correct, then the actual number of white med students is within 9% of the expected 73% (67/73 is just over 0.91). Even with this amount of error, we should still expect that about 12% of the med school student body will be African American (assuming 13% in the total population). We would also expect just over 13.75% of the student body to be Hispanic (assuming 15% of the total population). You may have noticed that just with these three categories we're already at 101%, so I'll just go ahead and assume that is due to the Hispanic/white overlap.

Hope this helps with your question. Good luck applying 🙂

 

[HeatherMD]

um JeanLuc, descendants of white europeans are definitely not under-represented in america, sorry.

Good try though.

 

[JeanLuc]

I don't think 6% is a significant difference when were talking about percentagages in the 70s.

However, my brother has red hair and he joked about applying URM status. I wonder what the percentages are there... Ha.

lol. Well "gingers" are subjected to a considerable amount of teasing and excessive ridicule solely based on their appearance...

 

[JeanLuc]

um JeanLuc, descendants of white europeans are definitely not under-represented in america, sorry.

Good try though.

So, then you are saying that Hispanics descending from "White Europeans" also definitely are not under-represented in the US.

That's part of the point I was trying to illustrate - that it is a matter of ethnicity and cultural identity and not racial constructs.

 

[HeatherMD]

I have no comments for hispanics on any issue.

I live in Canada. We are severely lacking in hispanics here, period.

But we only give URM status to native americans.. and they don't even take advantage!

 

[Reagan2012]

here's a shovel, so you can dig that hole for yourself faster.

maybe you could whistle a tune as you go down?

My question was based simply on numbers. Is it impossible for whites to be underrepressented in any field? I mean go watch a basketball game or go to a Panda Express: there can be a shortage of whites in a field. Can someone give me a definition of URM's in healtcare and explain why the white population whould not fit in? Most older docs are white because the admissions committees back then were largely racist: why should this generation be punished?

If I offended anyone by not using the words Caucasian or African American, I appologize

 

[MadEvans]

why should this generation be punished?

Payback.

 

[TehDoc]

I always thought people this clueless only existed on T.V.

 

[NTF]

My question was based simply on numbers. Is it impossible for whites to be underrepressented in any field? I mean go watch a basketball game or go to a Panda Express: there can be a shortage of whites in a field. Can someone give me a definition of URM's in healtcare and explain why the white population whould not fit in? Most older docs are white because the admissions committees back then were largely racist: why should this generation be punished?

If I offended anyone by not using the words Caucasian or African American, I appologize

Maybe not whites, but males are considered underrepresented in nursing and do benefit in admissions because of it.

I think you need to consider what URM means with emphasis on the word MINORITY.

 

[Mei]

Yikes, this thread is not going to be pretty.

 

[JeanLuc]

My question was based simply on numbers. Is it impossible for whites to be underrepressented in any field? I mean go watch a basketball game or go to a Panda Express: there can be a shortage of whites in a field. Can someone give me a definition of URM's in healtcare and explain why the white population whould not fit in? Most older docs are white because the admissions committees back then were largely racist: why should this generation be punished?

If I offended anyone by not using the words Caucasian or African American, I appologize

I understand what you mean. The idea is to change the present demographics of the total physician population and not the present entering class (e.g. the correction for the ethnic and racial discrimination of the prior generation, as you implied). There is more wrong with the practice than there is right, in my opinion. I base this not on demographics, but on the idea that its far more just to treat all equally than to permit for any to be discriminated against.

Also, part of my gripe with the situation is that when one of my parents (with permanent resident status) was interviewing for med school here in the 1970s, s/he was told, "I wouldn't have bothered applying here as we only accept Americans actually born in the US". S/he was accepted at another uni anyways... I'm writing this to illustrate that despite the attempt to correct for past injustices, not all formerly-discriminated ethnic minorities are treated equally today. This is part of why it is unjust to selectively apply URM status to only those groups that are readily identifiable in a racist, ethnocentric nation such as the US.
No offense intended.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

My question was based simply on numbers. Is it impossible for whites to be underrepressented in any field? I mean go watch a basketball game or go to a Panda Express: there can be a shortage of whites in a field. Can someone give me a definition of URM's in healtcare and explain why the white population whould not fit in? Most older docs are white because the admissions committees back then were largely racist: why should this generation be punished?

If I offended anyone by not using the words Caucasian or African American, I appologize

I attempted to address your question earlier. Please scroll up and check my response.

 

[Twiigg]

I don't know how long it will take before this quote applies to this thread, but I just thought I'd share it now:

"The Constitution was handed down to guide us by a bunch of those wise old dead white guys who invented this coutnry. Now, some flinch when I say that. Why? It's true . . . they were white guys. So were most of the guys who died in Lincoln's name opposing slavery in the 1860s. So why should I be ashamed of white guys? Why is "Hispanic pride" or "black pride" a good thing, while "white pride" conjures up shaved heads and white hoods?"

--Charlton Heston (I hesitate to say... president of the NRA)

 

[TehDoc]

LOL What?!

 

[deleted74029]

I don't know how long it will take before this quote applies to this thread, but I just thought I'd share it now:

"The Constitution was handed down to guide us by a bunch of those wise old dead white guys who invented this coutnry. Now, some flinch when I say that. Why? It's true . . . they were white guys. So were most of the guys who died in Lincoln's name opposing slavery in the 1860s. So why should I be ashamed of white guys? Why is "Hispanic pride" or "black pride" a good thing, while "white pride" conjures up shaved heads and white hoods?"

--Charlton Heston (I hesitate to say... president of the NRA)

I agree, and I'm black. But you have to realize that ANY type of minority will always be more prideful of themselves. This is not exclusive to race.

LOL What?!

I think this thread has been handled well so far.

 

[labgod]

i can't believe randy couture lost to brock lesnar!
gosh. i guess it doesn't matter they both suck

 

[SlickNickMD]

 

[halekulani]

lol
worst troll attempt ever.

 

[HumidBeing]

I think this post by DoctaJay, in which he quotes AAMC, can be very helpful for those who want to understand the current meaning of URM, which changed in 2003:

This is taken from : http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/start.htm

The Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) Executive Committee adopted a clarification to its definition of "underrepresented in medicine" on March 19, 2004, titled "The status of the new AAMC definition of 'underrepresented in medicine' following the Supreme Court's decision in Grutter."

The Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) definition of underrepresented in medicine is:

"Underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population."

Adopted by the AAMC's Executive Council on June 26, 2003, the definition helps medical schools accomplish three important objectives:

* a shift in focus from a fixed aggregation of four racial and ethnic groups to a continually evolving underlying reality. The definition accommodates including and removing underrepresented groups on the basis of changing demographics of society and the profession,
* a shift in focus from a national perspective to a regional or local perspective on underrepresentation, and
* stimulate data collection and reporting on the broad range of racial and ethnic self-descriptions.

Before June 26, 2003, the AAMC used the term "underrepresented minority (URM)," which consisted of Blacks, Mexican-Americans, Native Americans (that is, American Indians, Alaska Natives, and Native Hawaiians), and mainland Puerto Ricans. The AAMC remains committed to ensuring access to medical education and medicine-related careers for individuals from these four historically underrepresented racial/ethnic groups.

The determination of which groups may be under-represented in medicine can now focus on local and regional levels, as well as national.

 

[biophysicianai]

are biracial people consider UURM (ultra-under represented minorities)?

what percentage of the population is half black and half native american?

🙄

 

[pianola]

I attempted to address your question earlier. Please scroll up and check my response.

I'm kind of curious now. TMR's explanation seems to make sense.

OP, can you provide the supporting statistics with the 63% and 76%? I'm just curious if the supporting statistics make any reference to white Hispanic Americans.

 

[202781]

LOL...
I am actually a combination of what this entire thread has been talking about.

I am:
1. a white hispanic (grandmother spoke spanish until she was like 10, and is 100%)
and
2. a "ginger" (I have dark red hair)
3. from a tiny town.

I called a couple schools to ask them if I was URM and they told me to mark whatever I felt was most appropriate. I don't think (many of) the schools care whether or not you actually are URM...just that they accept people who have marked URM.

I did not mark URM by the way because I felt like I have not been disadvantaged in any way and want to keep the URM status meaningful for people who have been through something difficult or are truly UR in the field.

 

[Chemdude]

Are whites URM's in healthcare? Whites make up 73% of the population in the US, but only take up 67% of medical school slots. Doesn't this mean that they are underrepresented?

I mean if I went to Nigeria, I would expect most of the doctors there to be black. If I went to India, I would expect most of their doctors to be Indian. Shouldn't the US have mostly (73%) white doctors since this is the largest demographic?

Exactly. If you go to America, most of the doctors will be American. African Americans and Asian Americans are American as well.

American≠White

 

[Slowpoke]

lolwat?

 

[Lukkie]

Exactly. If you go to America, most of the doctors will be American. African Americans and Asian Americans are American as well.

American≠White

surprised it took 30 posts for someone to say this

 

[Adam Smasher]

Reagan2012
Join date: 11-15-2008
Banned: 11-16-2008



Not too shabby, he got 10 posts in one day. More than some lurkers get in a lifetime.

 

[saveourpens]

i dont really know what the op is talking about but it pisses me off to no end how only here in America do very well qualified med school applicants worry about getting their spots taken by urm who sometimes have 3.3 gpas and 27 mcats.

reverse discrimination.

 

[aznb0y129]

Exactly. If you go to America, most of the doctors will be American. African Americans and Asian Americans are American as well.

American≠White

QFT. I think it's pretty clear that the OP is just trying to get a leg up on the competition and doesn't think that being white should be "held against him," so to speak.

Truth be told, I'm sure a lot more people could claim URM status if they chose to. Many people have multiple racial and ethnic heritages. Many people come from poorer socio-economic backgrounds. Many people are first-generation in terms of going to college or being immigrants. All of these factors would theoretically play into being URM, but I think ultimately it comes down to whether you think any of these things disadvantaged you in terms of your journey to medical school.

 

[aznb0y129]

i dont really know what the op is talking about but it pisses me off to no end how only here in America do very well qualified med school applicants worry about getting their spots taken by urm who sometimes have 3.3 gpas and 27 mcats.

reverse discrimination.

I think you're only looking at this from the point of view that it makes it harder for you to get in to med school, not whether it's important to make sure URM groups are better represented in medicine.

I'm Asian and you don't see me complaining. That's just the way things are.

 

[HolyGrail]

I have no comments for hispanics on any issue.

I live in Canada. We are severely lacking in hispanics here, period.

But we only give URM status to native americans.. and they don't even take advantage!

My half aunt(half Native Canadian) is doing her rotations currently. Obviously not statistically significant, but some do.

 

[HolyGrail]

I'd like to point out one thing:

Men are under represented in healthcare, and are now only 50% of the population of doctors.

Nurses are highly unproportional, and so are PAs.

Someone just said that male nurses get a leg up, that might be, I know that male PAs do not. Male applicants for PA school are selected "by proportion of applicants".

So: If 100 women and 10 men apply, and 10 women get in, 1 man is allowed admission. That's not at all preferential treatment.

Anyway, I definitely see more women being in health care after the older doctors retire/die, this will be a female dominated field(Medicine that is), not saying it's good or bad...

 

[Chemdude]

i dont really know what the op is talking about but it pisses me off to no end how only here in America do very well qualified med school applicants worry about getting their spots taken by urm who sometimes have 3.3 gpas and 27 mcats.

reverse discrimination.

I am against affirmative action(I'm URM). Positions should be filled with the most qualified applicants. Affirmative action is sort of like a "hiding the dirt under the carpet" method. The real problem is racism.

If racism didn't exist, we wouldn't have to worry about the over/underrepresentation of specific groups. Instead of installing inefficient measures(affirmative action), how about trying to find a preventative solution to the original problem(racism)?

 

[TRN1983]

I am against affirmative action(I'm URM). Positions should be filled with the most qualified applicants. Affirmative action is sort of like a "hiding the dirt under the carpet" method. The real problem is racism.

If racism didn't exist, we wouldn't have to worry about the over/underrepresentation of specific groups. Instead of installing inefficient measures(affirmative action), how about trying to find a preventative solution to the original problem(racism)?

In medicine I believe there is a need to facilitate an increase in URM physicians (and I'm a politically incorrect white guy 😛). The problem is URM communities tend to disproportionately poor access to medical care and most people who don't come from those poor, urban URM communities aren't willing to go and serve them after they get their MD. (I'm not blaming them; I'm not planning on it.) We need more people who call those places "home" to become physicians so that they will go back to those communities after getting their MD's/DO's, which they do at a much higher rate according to the stats.

Sure, it would benefit "me" if URM standards were changed to reflect non-URM standards, but it would be detrimental to many more people.

 

[saveourpens]

I think you're only looking at this from the point of view that it makes it harder for you to get in to med school, not whether it's important to make sure URM groups are better represented in medicine.

I'm Asian and you don't see me complaining. That's just the way things are.

well, I don't get why I should have to work harder because of the color of my skin. Look, Im a sociology major. I know all about the societal forces and pressures that minorities face, especially african-americans.

But, when we're talking about Pitt med school, for instance, we're talking about being qualified to go to that school, not weather or not you're an urm.

In 1995, my family of 8 (including grandparents, aunts, cousins) came from Russia to America with a grand total of $20,000. We've become pretty successful since then. Mind you, I think we faced tougher challenges than your typical urm. If urm get an unfair advantage, why not us? Why should a 3rd generation Asian American get preferential over me, or an african american with subar qualifications. That's why everyone should be on equal footing.

 

[Quix]

I am against affirmative action(I'm URM). Positions should be filled with the most qualified applicants. Affirmative action is sort of like a "hiding the dirt under the carpet" method. The real problem is racism.

If racism didn't exist, we wouldn't have to worry about the over/underrepresentation of specific groups. Instead of installing inefficient measures(affirmative action), how about trying to find a preventative solution to the original problem(racism)?

The issue is that affirmative action is a key part of addressing underlying racism. Also, it's important to note that there is a difference between AA and quotas. AA assumes that the candidates in question have the requisite qualifications for the position, and then looks to non-professional qualities. Quotas simply state that "we need 17 blacks, 4 hispanics, 11 women, etc.", without concern for qualification.

Regardless, there need to be role models for aspiring individuals from all underrepresented populations - if a kid doesn't see someone like him or her, there is no reason to believe that he or she is capable of attaining that position, which fosters apathy.

The closest analogy I can offer is a baby elephant who is tied to a post. While young, it strains against the post, but never pulls free, so it stops trying, even after it grows and is a lot stronger. Sociology and developmental psychology tell us that we need role models to give kids the sense that they can genuinely achieve. AA is only part of the solution, since we see that there are salary and power differences between races and genders. The issue is complicated, and requires a nuanced solution, which includes AA.

 

[saveourpens]

I am against affirmative action(I'm URM). Positions should be filled with the most qualified applicants. Affirmative action is sort of like a "hiding the dirt under the carpet" method. The real problem is racism.

If racism didn't exist, we wouldn't have to worry about the over/underrepresentation of specific groups. Instead of installing inefficient measures(affirmative action), how about trying to find a preventative solution to the original problem(racism)?

affirmative action is a lazy and inefficient way to get minorities better represented. Instead of placing unqualified urm in med school, how about we don't go for a quick fix and start at the bottom, maybe pump more funding into underrepresented areas?

 

[Quix]

affirmative action is a lazy and inefficient way to get minorities better represented. Instead of placing unqualified urm in med school, how about we don't go for a quick fix and start at the bottom, maybe pump more funding into underrepresented areas?

How about we get our facts straight about AA, and not make assumptions that URM applicants = unqualified? 🙂

 

[Chemdude]

well, I don't get why I should have to work harder because of the color of my skin. Look, Im a sociology major. I know all about the societal forces and pressures that minorities face, especially african-americans.

But, when we're talking about Pitt med school, for instance, we're talking about being qualified to go to that school, not weather or not you're an urm.

In 1995, my family of 8 (including grandparents, aunts, cousins) came from Russia to America with a grand total of $20,000. We've become pretty successful since then. Mind you, I think we faced tougher challenges than your typical urm. If urm get an unfair advantage, why not us? Why should a 3rd generation Asian American get preferential over me, or an african american with subar qualifications. That's why everyone should be on equal footing.

Dude, Those couple of seats they give to URMs are not going to hurt your chances of getting accepted into medical school. Although being URM may help you a teensy-weensy-bit(that could be argued), being White does not negativly impact your chance of getting accepted.

 

[saveourpens]

How about we get our facts straight about AA, and not make assumptions that URM applicants = unqualified? 🙂

I never equated URM with unqualified. There are many qualified URM. But when I search through some of the profiles and ask myself how the hell did he/she get in there. Then Im willing to bet a lot of $ that they are URM, and what do you know? Im right

 

[aznb0y129]

well, I don't get why I should have to work harder because of the color of my skin. Look, Im a sociology major. I know all about the societal forces and pressures that minorities face, especially african-americans.

But, when we're talking about Pitt med school, for instance, we're talking about being qualified to go to that school, not weather or not you're an urm.

In 1995, my family of 8 (including grandparents, aunts, cousins) came from Russia to America with a grand total of $20,000. We've become pretty successful since then. Mind you, I think we faced tougher challenges than your typical urm. If urm get an unfair advantage, why not us? Why should a 3rd generation Asian American get preferential over me, or an african american with subar qualifications. That's why everyone should be on equal footing.

Asians don't get preferential treatment. If anything, Asians are overtly discriminated against in applying to medical school. This is because we only make up 4% of the general population, but are "over-represented" in medicine.

 

[Made of Dreams]

I'm not sure if this has been said or not because im just blindly posting...but i dont think the UR in URM is derived from med school enrollment. the med school enrollment is the process by which the disparity is corrected. the "UR" comes from the % of physicians in the US compared to % of the population. so of course you would expect the school enrollment to be lower for whites. how else would you fix the problem? this seems blatantly obvious so im sorry if i repeated someone else's point. nonetheless.... yay for EVERYONE who wants to be a doctor! 🙂

 

[Twiigg]

The issue is that affirmative action is a key part of addressing underlying racism. Also, it's important to note that there is a difference between AA and quotas. AA assumes that the candidates in question have the requisite qualifications for the position, and then looks to non-professional qualities. Quotas simply state that "we need 17 blacks, 4 hispanics, 11 women, etc.", without concern for qualification.

I agree with you that affirmative action is a key part of addressing underlying racism. But, I would have to say that underlying racism is against white males. It is illegal for employers to discriminate based on race, so why can medical schools do it? They shouldn't be able to because, like many posters have noted, it's REVERSE DISCRIMINATION. Medical schools should accept the most qualified applicants, no matter what their color be.

Regardless, there need to be role models for aspiring individuals from all underrepresented populations - if a kid doesn't see someone like him or her, there is no reason to believe that he or she is capable of attaining that position, which fosters apathy.

This just isn't true.

The closest analogy I can offer is a baby elephant who is tied to a post. While young, it strains against the post, but never pulls free, so it stops trying, even after it grows and is a lot stronger. Sociology and developmental psychology tell us that we need role models to give kids the sense that they can genuinely achieve. AA is only part of the solution, since we see that there are salary and power differences between races and genders. The issue is complicated, and requires a nuanced solution, which includes AA.

Good thing we are not elephants. I mean, really. People will achieve what they decide to achieve. No one deserves a handicap in the course of life.

 

[Ennis]

Clearly, this is the time for a Soul Man with C. Thomas Howell reference.

http://www.videodetective.com/?publishedid=193