ARGOSY: I don't get it. Plz explain.

[Czech007]

---

Members do not see this ad.

OK Guys,
I’m new on this forum. I’m 35 years old, married and I have 9 year old daughter. I’m considering Psy.D. Program.
Because of my family situation, I’m not able to move out of the Atlanta area. Argosy University is the ONLY school that offers Psy.D. Program in my area. I’m not interested in PhD.

I read TONS of negative reviews about Argosy, but if this school is so bad how come it is APA accredited????

I don’t get it. Any thoughts?
Bob

 

[edieb]

There are plenty of threads on here regarding Argosy. If you cannot make the sacrifice to move to a locale with a respected program now, what are you going to do for internship, fellowship and beyond?

 

[Czech007]

There are plenty of threads on here regarding Argosy. If you cannot make the sacrifice to move to a locale with a respected program now, what are you going to do for internship, fellowship and beyond?

Thank you for your comment, but I asked a specific question:

I read TONS of negative reviews about Argosy, but if this school is so bad how come it is APA accredited????

 

[2012PhD]

OK Guys,
I’m new on this forum. I’m 35 years old, married and I have 9 year old daughter. I’m considering Psy.D. Program.
Because of my family situation, I’m not able to move out of the Atlanta area. Argosy University is the ONLY school that offers Psy.D. Program in my area. I’m not interested in PhD.

I read TONS of negative reviews about Argosy, but if this school is so bad how come it is APA accredited????

I don’t get it. Any thoughts?
Bob

APA accredits tons of schools like argosy that have even 4% apa internship match rates. apa accredidation is pretty minimal criteria---it doesn't mean the program is reputable or has good outcomes. Not sure why they give it out to every program that is a professional program these days so readily. My guess is that the apa has a financial stake in accredidation since they get big bucks from the schools. Don't go to this school just out of desperation. NOt a good reason.

Do you know what match rates are? This is probably the most important statistic to look at. This past year, only 44% of the students got apa accredited internships. That means that the majority probably got unpaid, unaccredited ones or had to wait one more year to re-apply.

Argosy is unfunded. You will graduate with 150-200K in debt and then take on an unpaid internship. You will most likely not get an apa accredited internship and then be barred from many employment settings. How will you support your family with this level of debt and coming from a non-reputable program?

 

[MrQuack]

Thank you for your comment, but I asked a specific question:

I read TONS of negative reviews about Argosy, but if this school is so bad how come it is APA accredited????

Gosh I feel really bad for taking shots at Argosy now...

Have you ever looked into MSW and those other non-doctoral routes? Why are you so tied to the Psy.D? There are states where you can practice unsupervised with a masters in counseling, I don't know about yours though. I understand you want to get into this, but you might not be able to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Ollie123]

Because neither us, nor many employers, believe APA accreditation means a school is "good" or even "okay". Its meant to serve as the bare minimum, and a fair portion of folks in the field feel it isn't even meeting that mark anymore (largely because it is accrediting such schools). This is one of the reasons an alternative accreditation system has started.

The job market in psychology isn't very good right now. I'm not sure "Absolute bare minimum" looks good on a resume.

 

[Czech007]

Thanks Rivi and 2012PhD for your valuable input. Looks like I have lot more research to do...

And I thought Chiro shools were bad 😉

 

[Czech007]

Because neither us, nor many employers, believe APA accreditation means a school is "good" or even "okay". Its meant to serve as the bare minimum, and a fair portion of folks in the field feel it isn't even meeting that mark anymore (largely because it is accrediting such schools). This is one of the reasons an alternative accreditation system has started.

My bad, I believed that APA accreditation meant that shool is good...well there was also a time when I believed Santa was real..😉

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Emory is good.

.
Georgia State University may have a PhD in Clinical Psych (not sure). So does UGA.

GSU and UGA do both have clinical psych PhDs, yep (in addition to Emory). GSU also has a counseling program, I believe.

 

[Czech007]

APA accredits tons of schools like argosy that have even 4% apa internship match rates. apa accredidation is pretty minimal criteria---it doesn't mean the program is reputable or has good outcomes. Not sure why they give it out to every program that is a professional program these days so readily. My guess is that the apa has a financial stake in accredidation since they get big bucks from the schools. Don't go to this school just out of desperation. NOt a good reason.

Do you know what match rates are? This is probably the most important statistic to look at. This past year, only 44% of the students got apa accredited internships. That means that the majority probably got unpaid, unaccredited ones or had to wait one more year to re-apply.

Argosy is unfunded. You will graduate with 150-200K in debt and then take on an unpaid internship. You will most likely not get an apa accredited internship and then be barred from many employment settings. How will you support your family with this level of debt and coming from a non-reputable program?

74% got FUNDED internship; 42% got APA/CPA accredited int.,
How those #'s compare to other schools? Is there any good website where I can compare stats/schools?

 

[Ollie123]

Just go to the APPIC website. It posts them for all schools.

Those numbers are pretty miserable. 74% would be an average match if everyone was going to APA. Many schools won't even accept non-APA internships, except in very rare circumstances.

The fact that only about half the folks who get internships (which is an average number to begin with) are getting APA internships means they are far below average.

 

[Whitney22]

Georgia Southern has a Psy.D program it's a couple of hours away from Atlanta.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

74% got FUNDED internship; 42% got APA/CPA accredited int.,
How those #'s compare to other schools? Is there any good website where I can compare stats/schools?

Those numbers are horrid.

Many graduate programs do not allow a student to apply for any position that is unfunded, and most graduate programs will not allow students to apply to non-APA/CPA acred. internships. Some programs will allow APPIC sites on a case by case basis, but the "norm" for internship sites for the vast majority of clinical and counseling programs is FUNDED & APA acred. Maybe there has been a slight change because of the growing imbalance, but that is not what I've seen/heard from people I've met at conferences who are still in training.

It should be a red flag that a program even mentions the % of spots that are funded, as it is the exception and not the rule that a student even applies to an unfunded internship. Frankly, unfunded internship spots should not even be an option because they take advantage of desperate applicants.

 

[Rivi]

74% got FUNDED internship; 42% got APA/CPA accredited int.,
How those #'s compare to other schools? Is there any good website where I can compare stats/schools?

Those numbers are pretty bad. Ideally you want 80+% APA accredited. Go the link below and it gives program by program breakdown of match rates. Also, applying to only local internships will hurt you as well. Going to an APA approved internship is important. Some jobs require it, most jobs don't although it is still preferred. The VA hospital system (largest employer of psychologists) will only hire psychologists who went to an APA approved internship (and of course APA approved program).

http://www.appic.org/match/5_2_2_match_about_statistics.html

 

[Czech007]

Those numbers are pretty bad. Ideally you want 80+% APA accredited. Go the link below and it gives program by program breakdown of match rates. Also, applying to only local internships will hurt you as well. Going to an APA approved internship is important. Some jobs require it, most jobs don't although it is still preferred. The VA hospital system (largest employer of psychologists) will only hire psychologists who went to an APA approved internship (and of course APA approved program).

http://www.appic.org/match/5_2_2_match_about_statistics.html

Great info! Thank you all!

Czech007

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Hello Czech,

Geographic restrictions became a very large obstacle in this field. In terms of school, internship and work. Some people can do it but it is very difficult to find a solid school that will accept you, then a solid internship site that will accept you and finally a good job all in one area. It does happen but you would be stacking the deck against yourself.

And please stay away from Argosy. For the cost of their education, you would be better off taking out a loan and starting your own business with a master's degree. Not to mention the stigma associated with such a school.

 

[2012PhD]

Hello Czech,

Geographic restrictions became a very large obstacle in this field. In terms of school, internship and work. Some people can do it but it is very difficult to find a solid school that will accept you, then a solid internship site that will accept you and finally a good job all in one area. It does happen but you would be stacking the deck against yourself.

I second this, Czech! If you have a partner or kids, you will have to make many sacrifices to be successful in this field. You have to be somewhat geographically flexible for internship, post-doc, and then jobs. Many people have long-distance relationships in this field because they had to move to secure a post-doc/internship.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I second this, Czech! If you have a partner or kids, you will have to make many sacrifices to be successful in this field. You have to be somewhat geographically flexible for internship, post-doc, and then jobs. Many people have long-distance relationships in this field because they had to move to secure a post-doc/internship.

Thirded. It's important to remember, as the above posters have pointed out, that geographic restrictions don't end just at the grad school level--they actually become even more stringent as you progress in your training. Keep in mind that the internship matching process places even more emphasis on interests and "fit" than do doctoral programs, and thus there may be only one or two positions in the entire state that would work for you (in my case, there were no neuropsych-oriented internships in the state where I'm currently attending school, and there was only one in Georgia that I found and applied to: Emory). And these restrictions don't seem to disappear post-graduation, especially given the saturation of some of the more popular metro areas.

Thus, I personally would suggest that if an individual knows he/she can't at least consider relocating for a significant portion of training, then he/she should not be looking into doctoral-level training.

 

[forensicpsychjy]

Argosy's APA accreditation is on probation. May lose it if they keep going down hill. It would be terrible to get in there on probation and they lose it. Look into it?

 

[psyunknown]

Argosy's APA accreditation is on probation. May lose it if they keep going down hill. It would be terrible to get in there on probation and they lose it. Look into it?

Argosy as a whole is not on probation, but some of the individual programs are. I believe San Fran campus is on probation and possibly another.

 

[roubs]

42% got APA/CPA accredited int

To maintain accreditation APA really should come down on this fudging of the data and require standardized, specific language. They should also require schools to actually explain what it means to be APA accredited, CPA accredited , CAPIC/APPIC etc and what the actual barriers to employment are. This should be critical information to any applicant, yet places like Argosy have a serious financial interest in keeping the applicant uninformed.

I mean I've been reading this stuff for a bit now and I still am not sure when they say APA/CPA do they mean APA/ http://www.cpapsych.org/ or APA/ http://www.cpa.ca/ ? Shouldn't they be required to clarify this stuff?

 

[2012PhD]

Argosy as a whole is not on probation, but some of the individual programs are. I believe San Fran campus is on probation and possibly another.

SF is on probation b/c the APA internship rate has been around 5% in the past few years. Its beyond terrible. Would you ever go to a graduate program that has a 5% employment rate?

The other argosy programs are not on probation despite ridiculous outcome data!

 

[Horseluv9]

"I never let my schooling get in the way of my education."
- Mark Twain

 

[erg923]

When the "schooling" puts students at 3 times the level of debt (via ridiculous tuition and no financial support) than the modal practitioner in the profession makes in a year... then this is likely to "get in the way."

 

[roubs]

"I never let my schooling get in the way of my education."
- Mark Twain

Is that what they're saying to justify fraud these days?

 

[Brochacho]

Georgia Southern has a Psy.D program it's a couple of hours away from Atlanta.

By the way, Southern offers full funding plus competitive stipend. Much easier on the pocketbook! There is a heavier focus on research because it is an R1 institution but that attracted me to it. The cohorts are only around 8 which is comparable to most PhD programs. If your looking for the PsyD that emphasizes in rural populations it is a great program. APA accreditation will happen this spring so at least there is an out to Argosy in the state in terms of PsyD. I know you have family to consider but cost of living down here is great. Might want to check it out. Atlanta is 3-4 hours away but only an hour from the beach!🙂

 

[aequitasveritas]

"I never let my schooling get in the way of my education."
- Mark Twain

Wow...you're like, so deep and rogue

 

[Buzzwordsoldier]

SF is on probation b/c the APA internship rate has been around 5% in the past few years. Its beyond terrible. Would you ever go to a graduate program that has a 5% employment rate?

Category mistake.

 

[roubs]

Category mistake.

Though I'd say law schools who measure their employment rate by including law graduates who work at Starbucks are making the same error or worse.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Category mistake.

While 5% APA-acred. internship + program probation doesn't mean that only 5% will be employed, these both should be considered significant red flags. I'd call them serious risk factors for underemployment and possibly unemployment in a flooded market.

 

[2012PhD]

Category mistake.

Not a category mistake. I don't consider unpaid internships as employment (many unaccredited ones are unpaid) or going into another field because you can't get licensed or find a job as a clinical psychologist.

 

[Buzzwordsoldier]

Not a category mistake. I don't consider unpaid internships as employment (many unaccredited ones are unpaid) or going into another field because you can't get licensed or find a job as a clinical psychologist.

Mmmm, it was, and neither of these points corrects it. T4C's do:

While 5% APA-acred. internship + program probation doesn't mean that only 5% will be employed, these both should be considered significant red flags. I'd call them serious risk factors for underemployment and possibly unemployment in a flooded market.

Though I'd say law schools who measure their employment rate by including law graduates who work at Starbucks are making the same error or worse.

Yes, assuming the grads are not working in the SB legal department!

 

[aagman01]

Georgia St. has a fairly decent school psychology program, too. If you are willing to work with child/adolescent populations primarily, it could be a good program for you. You can generally stay in-state and complete internship/work if you are willing to work in schools. I am in a school psych program. I completed a good deal of coursework in clinical psych and also did most of my externships outside of schools, and am currently on internship at a medical college/psychiatric hospital placement. I got really good training with children/adolescents, although I have had to "catch up" with the adults. However, its possible and I am doing a lot of consults and clinical work with adults now, too. Also, the research requirements can be more laid back at school psych than a clinical phd program (although I got heavily involved in school and clinical psych research). Admission standards in school psych programs are a bit lower than clinical programs too, although not as low as Argosy (I believe I read once that the average admittance is an 1150). I met the requirements for a clinical program, but decided to go the school route because of the relative job security and my primary interest in working with children/adolescents. I received all kinds of scholarships and fellowships and teaching opportunities in my school psych program, whereas I probably would have been average at best in a clinical program (something else to consider). Anyways, good luck 🙂

.
Georgia State University may have a PhD in Clinical Psych (not sure). So does UGA.[/QUOTE]

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Georgia St. has a fairly decent school psychology program, too. If you are willing to work with child/adolescent populations primarily, it could be a good program for you. You can generally stay in-state and complete internship/work if you are willing to work in schools. I am in a school psych program. I completed a good deal of coursework in clinical psych and also did most of my externships outside of schools, and am currently on internship at a medical college/psychiatric hospital placement. I got really good training with children/adolescents, although I have had to "catch up" with the adults. However, its possible and I am doing a lot of consults and clinical work with adults now, too. Also, the research requirements can be more laid back at school psych than a clinical phd program (although I got heavily involved in school and clinical psych research). Admission standards in school psych programs are a bit lower than clinical programs too, although not as low as Argosy (I believe I read once that the average admittance is an 1150). I met the requirements for a clinical program, but decided to go the school route because of the relative job security and my primary interest in working with children/adolescents. I received all kinds of scholarships and fellowships and teaching opportunities in my school psych program, whereas I probably would have been average at best in a clinical program (something else to consider). Anyways, good luck 🙂

.
Georgia State University may have a PhD in Clinical Psych (not sure). So does UGA.

Georgia State does indeed have a clinical psych PhD program; or at least they did the last time I checked. And yes, UGA has a program as well, as does Emory.

 

[ncLPA]

Here is my experience with Argosy and Argosy graduates:

the program is flooded like a freshman classroom, lacking the intimacy of a true graduate program imho. it leaves people not getting the attention they need in order to refine their skills. add to that the massive debt and you create clinicians that don't have refined skills and who are deep in debt.

my former supervisor was a argosy grad who was the most clinically ill person i've ever met, and who has committed in any number of ways the most ethical violations i have ever seen. her treatment ofclients, understanding of literature and interventions is sad. shortly into supervision i learned she didn't even understand what exposure therapy was.

avoid it like the plague. although it may meet the 'check marks' on the cred. board for APA, it does not produce good education or good outcome.

 

[PerhapsMaybeOk]

Here is my experience with Argosy and Argosy graduates:

the program is flooded like a freshman classroom, lacking the intimacy of a true graduate program imho. it leaves people not getting the attention they need in order to refine their skills. add to that the massive debt and you create clinicians that don't have refined skills and who are deep in debt.

my former supervisor was a argosy grad who was the most clinically ill person i've ever met, and who has committed in any number of ways the most ethical violations i have ever seen. her treatment ofclients, understanding of literature and interventions is sad. shortly into supervision i learned she didn't even understand what exposure therapy was.

avoid it like the plague. although it may meet the 'check marks' on the cred. board for APA, it does not produce good education or good outcome.

What were some of the ethical violations?

 

[deleted176373]

OK Guys,
I'm new on this forum. I'm 35 years old, married and I have 9 year old daughter. I'm considering Psy.D. Program.
Because of my family situation, I'm not able to move out of the Atlanta area. Argosy University is the ONLY school that offers Psy.D. Program in my area. I'm not interested in PhD.

I read TONS of negative reviews about Argosy, but if this school is so bad how come it is APA accredited????

I don't get it. Any thoughts?
Bob

Many people in the psychological community feel that Dr. Phil is an abomination in the world of psychology, yet the president of the APA handed him an award for his contributions to psychology. That should answer the APA portion of the question.

And perhaps you aren't very good at math... that is where the root of many of the complaints stem from. Argosy, even the better ones, are not feeling a lot of love from their own alumni. I know several Argosy students who are from one of the more competitive campuses and these students have very little love for the program. These students aren't just bitching to complain, but have very real concerns over the preparation for internship and future practice Argosy provides. These are bright people, who in retrospect, I believe would have selected a different path knowing what they know now.

I realized that I haven't been very specific, but that is to protect the identities of the persons involved. If the story I heard from multiple sources that attended Argosy has any validity, the problems appear to be concerning and systemic. Don't overgeneralize what I am saying and assume that clinicians graduating Argosy are systemically flawed, I know they have graduated some very good clinicians, but by the time I have met them they had be vetted on multiple levels by multiple professionals and probably represented a rather restricted range of student coming from specific campuses.

 

[2012PhD]

And perhaps you aren't very good at math... that is where the root of many of the complaints stem from. Argosy, even the better ones, are not feeling a lot of love from their own alumni. I know several Argosy students who are from one of the more competitive campuses and these students have very little love for the program. These students aren't just bitching to complain, but have very real concerns over the preparation for internship and future practice Argosy provides. These are bright people, who in retrospect, I believe would have selected a different path knowing what they know now.

Most people i've met along the way from professional schools will tell me that they wouldn't have gone to a professional school again due to debt, training issues, and stigma in the job market. One huge theme i hear from every professional student is the fact that they are not as competitive in the job market because of the huge stigma that most psychologists have against professional programs. Even the top 5% of these graduates will have to work harder to show that they are on par with university based students. I've met countless who didn't match for internship even though they sought out good training outside the school. Most psychologists who do the hiring for many employment positions are from university based programs and they really make an effort to cut out any professional students. Only a few exceptions will slip through the cracks (every 10 years or so) at competitive employment places like VAs.

The ones i've met who made it to apa internships are usually pretty exceptional. They are in the top 5-10% of the class, really motivated and pro-active at trying to get excellent training outside their program. From my experience, they have to work harder than most to get an internship and often have to go through the match more than once!

 

[ncLPA]

What were some of the ethical violations?

to list a few
1. dual roles
2. billing insurance for phone contact and listing it as F2F on bill sheets
3. practicing outside of training
4. practicing under the influence of drugs

etc etc.

it was so bad i can only begin to describe.

i left quickly. multiple board complaints occurred. LME complaints occured. nothing happened. NC psych board is useless in my experience though.