Army PA wanting med school. uGPA3.4, paGPA4.0 no MCAT yet. 8000+hours clinical work

[MeatheadPA]

Good morning all,
I am a currently serving Physician Assistant in the US Army serving as a chief medical officer, squadron sole provider and brigade surgeon. I went straight to PA school after undergrad and have been in for a total of 8 years, 3 of it as a PA. I would like to apply to medical school. I am aware of the LECOM APAP and will most likely apply to this path. I am also interested in some MD programs but need some help and advice. I tried searching the forums but it seems like I am a pretty unique case. I have fellow physicians who state I should apply to some MDs as well and that I may have a decent application based of life experience. Stats below

uGPA 3.4 170credits
paGPA 4.0 125credits
BS Human Bio, minor MilSci
MS Physician Assistant with research and master thesis
8000+ hours clinical PA work
1500 hours as an emergency medicine intern during undergrad
1 semester of journal club and introduction to research
2 semesters of evidence based medicine
5 years in the National Guard as medical officer and cavalry scout ( Was an executive officer for a medical support company)
3 years as an active duty PA
300 hours volunteer in undergrad at a local health clinic
150 hours volunteer for American Kidney Assoc in PA school
Owner and Operator of a landscaping business in highschool
Football Team Captain in highschool
I was a collegiate lacrosse player in undergrad
Graduated Summa Cum Laude in PA school, class representative for the AAPA and the national conference and selected for a competitive remote medicine elective.
Just under a year deployment as the sole medical professional on the ground months after graduating PA school
Additional NATO humanitarian mission training multinationals in crucial life saving medicine.
Served 4 months as an aeromedical PA
Member of the joint NATO medical conference for 10 months discussing certain diseases and health issues seen in the Balkans
Graduate of the air assault course, airborne, tropical medicine course, aeromedical PA course, Tactical combat care course (TCMC), combat casualty care course (C4), medevac platoon leader course, medical basic officer leadership course, leadership training course, leadership development and assessment course, cold weather indoctrination course and incident/CBRNE commander course. (there are more but need to take a look at my file)
BLS, ABLS, ACLS, PALS, ATLS(audit, cant get credit as PA) and CLS

Additionally, I am 28 years old married without children. No debt, and ill be a HPSP scholar. I would like to go to school in the next couple years. I have not taken the MCAT. I took me pre-med classes in 2007. Also, I took Ochem1 and Ochem2 and got a C- in both lectures and As in both labs. They are 2 of the 3 Cs i have ever gotten. Do schools average your lab and lecture grades if they are scored separately. I would hate to have to retake after 8 years because of C-. I took bichem after and got an A.

Im think LECOM may be my only choice which I am okay with, but, should I try studying for the MCAT for about 6mo-1yr and then apply to some MD schools. I am looking at either E-Med or Anesth as a specialty mostly. I would also like to leave the door open for spec such as Otho or Gen surg which I hear is hard to get as a DO. A doc I work with said that Dartmouth doesnt require (but highly recommends) taking the MCAT. He states that they are known for looking for round characters with life experience in lieu of MCAT and extremely high GPA. Since it is a high end school, I feel it may be silly to apply with a cumGPA of 3.6 and no MCAT. They require 1sem Ochem and 1sem Biochem which I received a C- in Ochem. If retaking and getting a B or above would give me a shot at Dartmouth, I would do it in a heart beat. I sent them an email a week ago and will see what they say when they come back from Christmas.

Is it worth taking the MCAT after out of school for so long. Physics was a long time ago... If I got a 23-25 on it, is it going to help at all? I think a 30+ after being out of school for so long might be un-attainable while working full time.

I apologize for the long post. I tried lurking and searching for the answers but am having a difficult time finding the correct answer. Thank for all your help and time and Merry Christmas!!

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[asdf123g]

You have to take the MCAT at some point I believe in order to apply...there really is no way around it. Start studying and prepare for the long haul. Get some tutors too to quicken the process and make it less painful. I am unsure about any MD schools that favor military.

 

[MeatheadPA]

Thanks for the reply! LECOM and Dartmouth dont require the MCAT. Not looking for military favor, simply schools that look for non-traditional students with extensive medical training and experience (dartmouth,brown,LECOM). Those are just a few I've heard from fellow colleagues. Since PA school is essentially med school lite, Im hoping someone here that works in admissions could help me determine if that would be a better predictor in their mind of someone for their program. There are articles littered on the web stating MedSchools are looking more heavily towards students with extensive medical background over stellar undergrad GPAs.

 

[primadonna22274]

I didn't realize Dartmouth doesn't require MCAT--good on them.
I took the MCAT almost cold in 2006, a decade out from my biology BS. My score sucked and my retake wasn't much better... This limited my options but my 24S in no way predicted my med school board scores which were very good (COMLEX 1 and USMLE 1) then awesome (COMLEX 1 and 2). I had to recert PANRE in my 12th yr the afternoon after my M2 cardiology final with no more prep than a year of taking med school tests and smoked it (800, and a perfect score on cardiology section lol). Scored in upper 5th percentile for interns on this year's ABFM in-training exam--so my point is that your PA training and practice is outstanding prep for med school and residency.
I was one of the 7 first graduates for LECOM APAP. PM me if you want more encouragement. It's gotten quite competitive but you're in good shape and LECOM really does have a strong preference for military folks. Talk with Dr Kauffman after the new year--you may not need to take MCAT (that requirement was dropped after the second class I believe). You're absolutely right that a ho-hum score will hurt you more than help. If you think you can get a solid 30, go for it--it's only money and a day out of your life--but don't take it cold like I did lol.
Your PANCE score is part of what Dr K takes into consideration for APAP competitiveness. If you managed a first-time >550 you're in good shape.
Lisa

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You'll most likely have to retake those courses, unless you contact schools and get a grade waiver.

You need to take the MCAT. It's really the game changer. Everything else is excellent.

 

[primadonna22274]

Agree it would be wise to repeat ochem and Biochem with strong grades--and don't bother with MCAT until you've taken them. Will help your score immensely.

 

[MeatheadPA]

Thanks for the info. I got an A in biochem and a C- in both O-Chem lectures and As in the labs. Should I retake ochem1 or ochem2? most schools only require 1 semester of O Chem and dont want to retake both.
Also, UNE offers and online O-Chem course for pre-med students so that may be an option.

 

[MeatheadPA]

You'll most likely have to retake those courses, unless you contact schools and get a fee waiver.

You need to take the MCAT. It's really the game changer. Everything else is excellent.

Also, what is a fee waiver?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Also, what is a fee waiver?

I think my phone just added the word "fee" to it. It's just a grade waiver for being below a C.

 

[trolollol]

You're in very good shape. Don't worry about your undergraduate GPA too much because you have the 4.0 gpa from PA school. Just get a half decent mcat score and you should be a competitive candidate especially for your home state med schools.

 

[primadonna22274]

I wish it were true that a great PA school GPA trumps an average undergrad one in this game...but sadly it does not. Nobody cared about my awesome PA GPA--they focused on my icky UG from a decade plus prior. It was only when I applied to the LECOM APAP track that anybody who knew anything about what PA grades mean cared to notice.
That said, it would hurt a lot if his PA GPA was sub-3.0. Double standard, yes.

 

[rodmichael82]

OP you will have to take the MCAT regardless of if you apply to MD or DO schools.
You can get into a MD school with a 3.4 especially due to your military service but again you would want to score > 70 percentile on the MCAT. A lot of MD schools require you have at least a C in the pre-reqs so the C- in Organic Chem lectures will be a problem. They do not average the Organic chemistry lectures with the labs. Both courses have separate grades. MD schools will NOT be too happy about taking the pre-reqs online, you will have to actually retake them at a proper college (preferably a 4 year university).
You could get into a DO school with just scoring > 50 percentile on the MCAT. You can call the two DO schools that don't require the MCAT and see what they think about your chances of getting in. I think you can almost guarantee yourself admission to a decent DO school with a 50 percentile score (which on the old MCAT was roughly a 25-26). Even after so many years a 25 MCAT score is very doable with 3 months of preparation (mainly because you're working too). There's a SN2ed schedule out there but you know the new MCAT requires more course work such as Biochemistry, Sociology, Psychology and stuff like that which would be a pain. I think if you could have the military pay for a MCAT prep course like Kaplan, Princeton you could easily score a 25 (50 percentile) using that.

I think the DO schools are a little bit more understanding and they will appreciate your PA grades a lot more than MD schools.

EM, Anesthesia and General Surgery will be very possible as a DO. Orthopedic surgery on the other hand will be extremely hard to get into (I'm just being honest with you). Orthopedic surgery is extremely competitive and even as a MD applicant, you have to be top of the class.

Good luck to you and thank you for your service!

 

[MeatheadPA]

Thanks everybody for the advice. I have about 2 years that I will put into this before I stick with being a PA for the rest of my career. I enjoy it, but I wouldnt mind the increase of responsibility, autonomy, ability open private practice, more pay for same work. Looks like I should re-take O-Chem regardless so I will look into that. I may apply to LECOM 2016 cycle and if I get accepted there, I will go with that. If not, Ill take the MCAT and then pepper the AMCAS. Either pathway I take (MD or DO) will end with a military match so both end points are the same. For LECOM APAP, its only 3 years which would be 3 years I owe. The time starts rolling back if you enter a military residency. So if I get a 3yr E-Med, I would owe nothing after the residency and be eligible for large bonuses, choice of duty location etc... Since the LECOM pathway would get you into the working world quicker, thats roughly $250,000 of savings and a year of youth.

I guess my biggest question is is going to a 4yr MD school worth it? I dont have a large ego (Im a PA) and respect the position and not the letters. Any advantages for my plan in the MD. It seems like when it comes to DO schools, LECOM sits pretty well.

 

[MeatheadPA]

Also, one of you may know this answer.... One of the APAP stipulation is that you must enter an AOA residency. Since the merger this year, how does this requirement work? There are no AOA residencies.

 

[primadonna22274]

I expect the AOA residency requirement will go away, but not until after 2015. I am doing an ACGME residency (they changed it for the 2nd class--we managed to avoid it as it was not in our contract). I imagine they would honor a military residency for any service member but you need to ask Dr Shabloski (military contact and director of clinical education) and Dr Kauffman when it comes to the interview.

 

[MeatheadPA]

In your opinion, if im going through a military res anyways, is there any benefit of a full 4yr MD school?

 

[rodmichael82]

In your opinion, if im going through a military res anyways, is there any benefit of a full 4yr MD school?

I don't know how military residencies work so you will have to find out about that on your own from the contacts the poster above gave you. However, In the civilian world a MD would be more beneficial than a DO if you were trying to get into:-
1. ENT/Otolaryngology
2. Dermatology
3. Plastic Surgery
4. Orthopaedic Surgery

Since these specialties are extremely competitive and have a very high preference for MDs. DOs have been able to match in those specialties especially through the DO residencies in the past but you know due to the merger everything is changing.

You mentioned your strong interest in EM. With EM you would have no benefit of getting into a MD school at all, it would be the exact same as getting into a DO school especially since you're going the military route. I guess MD would matter if you were trying to apply to Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF and top schools like that but that's not the case with you so don't worry about that.

I would say go with DO, save yourself a year. A DO= MD and DO schools will show greater appreciation for your life and academic experiences in the past.

 

[REL]

Good morning all,
I am a currently serving Physician Assistant in the US Army serving as a chief medical officer, squadron sole provider and brigade surgeon. I went straight to PA school after undergrad and have been in for a total of 8 years, 3 of it as a PA. I would like to apply to medical school. I am aware of the LECOM APAP and will most likely apply to this path. I am also interested in some MD programs but need some help and advice. I tried searching the forums but it seems like I am a pretty unique case. I have fellow physicians who state I should apply to some MDs as well and that I may have a decent application based of life experience. Stats below

uGPA 3.4 170credits
paGPA 4.0 125credits
BS Human Bio, minor MilSci
MS Physician Assistant with research and master thesis
8000+ hours clinical PA work
1500 hours as an emergency medicine intern during undergrad
1 semester of journal club and introduction to research
2 semesters of evidence based medicine
5 years in the National Guard as medical officer and cavalry scout ( Was an executive officer for a medical support company)
3 years as an active duty PA
300 hours volunteer in undergrad at a local health clinic
150 hours volunteer for American Kidney Assoc in PA school
Owner and Operator of a landscaping business in highschool
Football Team Captain in highschool
I was a collegiate lacrosse player in undergrad
Graduated Summa Cum Laude in PA school, class representative for the AAPA and the national conference and selected for a competitive remote medicine elective.
Just under a year deployment as the sole medical professional on the ground months after graduating PA school
Additional NATO humanitarian mission training multinationals in crucial life saving medicine.
Served 4 months as an aeromedical PA
Member of the joint NATO medical conference for 10 months discussing certain diseases and health issues seen in the Balkans
Graduate of the air assault course, airborne, tropical medicine course, aeromedical PA course, Tactical combat care course (TCMC), combat casualty care course (C4), medevac platoon leader course, medical basic officer leadership course, leadership training course, leadership development and assessment course, cold weather indoctrination course and incident/CBRNE commander course. (there are more but need to take a look at my file)
BLS, ABLS, ACLS, PALS, ATLS(audit, cant get credit as PA) and CLS

Additionally, I am 28 years old married without children. No debt, and ill be a HPSP scholar. I would like to go to school in the next couple years. I have not taken the MCAT. I took me pre-med classes in 2007. Also, I took Ochem1 and Ochem2 and got a C- in both lectures and As in both labs. They are 2 of the 3 Cs i have ever gotten. Do schools average your lab and lecture grades if they are scored separately. I would hate to have to retake after 8 years because of C-. I took bichem after and got an A.

Im think LECOM may be my only choice which I am okay with, but, should I try studying for the MCAT for about 6mo-1yr and then apply to some MD schools. I am looking at either E-Med or Anesth as a specialty mostly. I would also like to leave the door open for spec such as Otho or Gen surg which I hear is hard to get as a DO. A doc I work with said that Dartmouth doesnt require (but highly recommends) taking the MCAT. He states that they are known for looking for round characters with life experience in lieu of MCAT and extremely high GPA. Since it is a high end school, I feel it may be silly to apply with a cumGPA of 3.6 and no MCAT. They require 1sem Ochem and 1sem Biochem which I received a C- in Ochem. If retaking and getting a B or above would give me a shot at Dartmouth, I would do it in a heart beat. I sent them an email a week ago and will see what they say when they come back from Christmas.

Is it worth taking the MCAT after out of school for so long. Physics was a long time ago... If I got a 23-25 on it, is it going to help at all? I think a 30+ after being out of school for so long might be un-attainable while working full time.

I apologize for the long post. I tried lurking and searching for the answers but am having a difficult time finding the correct answer. Thank for all your help and time and Merry Christmas!!

 

[REL]

Firstly, thank you for your service!!! I have some common ground with a 21 year military career, much of it overseas and much of it supporting special military activites. It appears that you have done some nice things for your country and sacrificed for your country. Thank you.

I have been an administrator in a Florida M.D. school since 1996 and an admissions director since 2000 so I can provide you with my experiences from that perspective.

Much of what has been said here is generally accurate so I will not rehash those ideas but will provide you with what I believe will help you get into an MD program in Florida and probably many others. I can tell you that metrics (GPA/MCAT) will help med programs take an initial look at your application, what you have done or how your have demonstrated your motivations toward medicine and humanism, as well as teamwork/leadership ethic will get you the interview. You will find that most MD programs speak of a holistic process for reviewing applications. For many that means that they will not limit applications based on base-line metrics and theoretically look at all applications and make interview decisions based on the entire application. Sounds good, but I dont believe that is really the case, here is a metric"cut" line somewhere in their process because all schools need their students to pass many national exams throughout their curriculum to pass courses, meet national Step minimums, and eventually become licensed. I believe that not posting minimum metric is irresponsible to the applicants in that they are giving applicants that are not competitive a false hope as well as costing them time and money. My program does post minimums of 3.0/3.0/24 but willl also review applications that are below, but near to see if there are academic trends (poor freshman year, strong upward trend, etc.) and other strongly demonstrated motivations which may garner an interview. Most programs do this as well so there are a precious few that have much lower than average metrics that are accepted each year. Finally, many MD programs recognize the value of non-traditional students in their student body; those with military experience are desired if they can show the motivations in some way and give the impression that they can survive the first two academic years. This is true especially if they have military medical training, but many do not.

My recommendations for you to make your first application year successful:
- Academics: Consider participating in a full-time, one-year MS in a basic science (not MPH) discipline. Do not retake course work if you can avoid it unless you think you need to strenthen a foundation. Do well here and there should not be any questions regarding academics. Sneak in a sociology course or two to help with the MCAT.
- MCAT: It'll be new for most, dont fret it. The above may help you do better as you renew basic science knowledge. It is necessary to schedule a few hours daily to prepare for this exam. Take as many pre-test section exams as you can possibly stand. MCAT is actually starting to provide their own study helps program that is low cost in comparision to many of the commercial study help organizations. When ready you can also purchase several recently out-dated MCAT exams - of course they will be the old style, but I suspect they can help you get into the multi-hour testing groove.
- Medical motivation: True you have been caring for patients as a part of your career so there is not as much question regarding your patient care experience. We programs also like to see is that you do some volunteerism in this area for others and show that medicine is more than a job to you. Someone with your experiences can really contribute in free-clinics and other hospital volunteering.
- Humanism: This is often best manifested by community service volunteering in non-medical environments. This can be anything from the obvious feeding homeless, to working with at-risk youth, or boys/girls club type events, even nursing home activities.
Teamwork/Leadership: You have had lots of experience here so all you really need to do is accentuate the "teamwork" ethic that you have. Leadership skill is good, but the hallmark of a good leader is to invest in your team.
- Research: Not a required item for an applicant to any program in the state. Can be helpful if you have done it as an interest and could give you a limited edge if you did research that gives you the understanding of the process. I would spend time on all of the other areas and do this only if you have the time and interest.

Final note. You have to do what is necessary to live your life and be a good husband. IMO you are not striving to meet an hourly threshhold in the motivations, but more a consistency in doing some as you can within the life that you have to lead. You do not have to do the addition MS, but it would help you in many ways for preparation as by showling programs that you "still have it." There are so many applicants to medical programs and many have a blemish or two, the less questions that you leave for a committee the better you will fare. Finally you may get into an MD program without doing any of the above, and as noted in previous posts have a stronger likelihood of being accepted by DO programs. You need to evalute what you want and determine your next steps. Either way I wish you well.

Merry Christmas! I hope that this one was spent on U.S. soil and with your family. Thank you for all of your contributions to the security of our precious nation!!

 

[MeatheadPA]

REL,
Thank you for the reply. I made an account here hoping to hear from a faculty member. That was a very straight forward answer and helped a lot. Id be dragging my wife through medical school once again 😱 and want to make sure I make the right decision. The longer I wait, the closer to kids she will want.... I think everybody may be right about the MCAT. It might be worth studying for an hour a night for the next several months and then throwing out some MD applications. I am very good at multi hour tests been taking them for years. Only if I could get stationed at Ft Sam and get Texas residency... Unfortunately, I am overseas for this Christmas again 👎, but that means less distractions. Since I got a C- in lecture for O chem, I might bite the bullet and take it through UNE online. It is tailored to medical students and wont have to take the lab since I got an A in mine. Lastly, thank you for your service, 21 years is a long time!!

 

[Conflagration]

Thank you both for your service!

My parents were in the military, too. Both were in Army.

I don't see why you couldn't take the MCAT and rock it out. I hear UNE's class is definitely time-consuming, so be prepared for that.