As far a trauma and life support in the field, ER or Anesthesia?

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FoughtFyr,

Thanks for all the reviews of the articles. I simply did not have the motivation to even search for them. Also, in reference to the model replacing ground EMS systems with aeromedical systems, I would love to know what was included. Hopefully they included one chopper for every ten thousand people as well as ground crews to set up landing zones. I have no doubt that EMS is an expensive business, but I am very skeptical that an air service would be more productive. Whatever the case, I would love to see a chopper landing in the middle of the city at 3am for a toothache... "Ma'am, did you call a chopper?"
 
a_ditchdoc said:
👍

FoughtFyr,

Thanks for all the reviews of the articles. I simply did not have the motivation to even search for them. Also, in reference to the model replacing ground EMS systems with aeromedical systems, I would love to know what was included. Hopefully they included one chopper for every ten thousand people as well as ground crews to set up landing zones. I have no doubt that EMS is an expensive business, but I am very skeptical that an air service would be more productive. Whatever the case, I would love to see a chopper landing in the middle of the city at 3am for a toothache... "Ma'am, did you call a chopper?"
I didn't have the time to search for them.

What's funny is someone claiming HEMS reduces mortality, when a recent OPALS study demonstrated ALS by paramedics didn't reduce mortality in trauma patients when compared to treatment by BLS units only.
 
southerndoc said:
I didn't have the time to search for them.

What's funny is someone claiming HEMS reduces mortality, when a recent OPALS study demonstrated ALS by paramedics didn't reduce mortality in trauma patients when compared to treatment by BLS units only.

SD,

I'm going to reserve judgement until I see the full study. Two questions leap to mind. The first was the inherant problem in the similar LA based study (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8611068&query_hl=22) where the question of scene time for ALS was "first" raised. Did the OPALS work account for this? Second, and I don't mean to sound xenophobic, but I spent a fair amount of time as a municipal consultant to Winnepeg on EMS issues. To say that the Canadian system of EMS is different than ours would be an understatement. I question if the results will carry over given the differences. I look forward to reading the published paper...

- H
 
Mike MacKinnon said:
Or I could explain it to you since i have written published journal articles on the topic.

A case report or review in what I am not even sure is a peer reviewed journal is hardly definitive. The only definitive clinical trial I've seen was Dr. Maddox's study from more than 10 years ago showing improved outcomes with what was in their case, at that time, nearly complete non-intervention, not just "permissive" hypotension. My vague recollection was that there was some protocal violations in the nonintervention arm of that study as well. In any event it was an heroic effort and I'm sure quite difficult to both do the study and to get it past the IRB. If permissive hypotension becomes standard of care this study will certainly be the foundation that everyone points to. Remember though, that study looked only at penetrating chest trauma in an urban area with short transport times. Generalizing beyond that rather restricted patient population is risky. Given those initial results I'm disappointed but not surprised that it wasn't followed by a large multicenter trial looking at multiple types of trauma (difficult to fund when you are essentially advocating nonintervention). That is what we need to really prove conclusively the appropriate initial fluid management in trauma.

The current military activity in Iraq and Afghanistan would certainly provide the perfect setting to test the hypothesis since you have literally thousand of trauma patients both blunt and penetrating with a variety of transport times. Despite Mike's assurance that the Iraq and Afghanistan data "100%" supports permissive hypotension I am not yet aware of any published data comparing outcomes with normal versus restricted fluids from that setting. Even the military consensus statement that Dr. Maddox mentions in his editorial recommends more fluid than he generally advocates.

Mike MacKinnon said:
As far as physicians on helicopters, well all research on pt outcomes shows only one team to have the best outcomes of doc-rn, doc-emt-p, rn-rn, emt-p emt-p, rn emt-p. Its the last one RN EMT-P. Look it up.

I don't have time to go through your whole bibliography and despite my familiarity with medline I was unable to "look it up". Can you just point me to the one study which shows better outcomes with RN EMT-P? Not a textbook, consensus statement, policy, or review article but an actual study.

Mike MacKinnon said:
Oh i realise there are studies in the opposite direction. As we all know statistics can be, and are made to form whatever outcome the author wants.
What i can say is i have seen the difference made first hand both as a recieving facility and as a air medical provider.

If the studies are done appropriately and the statistics applied correctly then they don't lie. That what we call evidence based medicine. Its not this simple but if 100 trauma patients are transported by ground and an identical 100 by air and 65 from each group survive than you have to conclude air made no difference regardless of your personal experience of however many patients "never would have made it if it weren't for the helicopter." By the same token if another 100 are transported by the "home-boy" ambulance service with identical results then EMS made no difference. (There is some data in certain restricted settings to support this) You still have to ask yourself if the study population resembles your situation. If you are in charge of EMS for the Alaskan bush its probably not a good idea to base your decisions on the results of the "home-boy" ambulance service of Detroit since the home-boy density in the Alaskan bush is much lower than in inner city Detroit.
 
Mike, can you provide a list of all the "studies" you've had published? I'd like to read over all of them. Thank you.

And I would appreciate it if you could PM me with the text of the article from the "Air Medical Journal". I can't seem to find a copy of that one.
 
ERMudPhud said:
By the same token if another 100 are transported by the "home-boy" ambulance service with identical results then EMS made no difference. (There is some data in certain restricted settings to support this) You still have to ask yourself if the study population resembles your situation. If you are in charge of EMS for the Alaskan bush its probably not a good idea to base your decisions on the results of the "home-boy" ambulance service of Detroit since the home-boy density in the Alaskan bush is much lower than in inner city Detroit.

For the delicates and neophytes who may not know, the "home-boy" ambulance is your bud gets capped, and you dump his ass in the back of the Cutlass or the Escalade, and bust ass to the hospital (and people know where to go, since their other pals have gone to the trauma center), and dump his ass at the door, without intervention. I don't know if it was the same study or a different one that showed the same thing with being in the back of the police car - that getting to hospital was key.
 
ISU_Steve said:
Mike, can you provide a list of all the "studies" you've had published? I'd like to read over all of them. Thank you.

And I would appreciate it if you could PM me with the text of the article from the "Air Medical Journal". I can't seem to find a copy of that one.

A PubMed search shows this as the only EM related article by MacKinnon MA. There is some Neurosurg work out of Scotland and some Toxicology stuff out of NJ, but this author is from AZ.

Be gentle guys, I don't think this is the response Mike expected when he wandered in here. I think he imagined that this article and his experience as a flight nurse would outpace the average here.

- H
_________

Permissive hypotension: A change in thinking

Mike A. MacKinnon CEN, CFRN, BSN, RN,

Air Evac Services, Phoenix, Ariz, USA

Available online 26 February 2005.

A call sends you to a local freeway where a single vehicle has lost control and struck another vehicle from behind. The patient, a 26-year-old man, was restrained, and his air bag deployed; he has total recall of the accident. Local emergency medical services personnel inform you that he has bilateral femur fractures, very low blood pressure, and fast heart rate, but he is mentating normally. You are 20 minutes from the nearest appropriate facility.

Certainly this call—a trauma involving a hemorrhagic emergency that will rapidly deteriorate—is commonplace to air medical crews across the country. Multiple trauma courses, the most prominent of which is the Advanced Trauma Life Support by the American College of Surgeons (ACS), have taught us how to manage these emergencies. The typical treatment regimen has been 2 large-bore intravenous lines and the 3:1 rule.[1] Our treatment goals have centered on normalizing numbers, such as blood pressure and heart rate, regardless of physiologic evidence to the contrary.

However, our thinking is finally starting to change. To discuss these changes in treatment and thinking, we must first define the problem. Patients who are involved in significant blunt or penetrating trauma are at risk for hemorrhagic shock. The ACS defines shock as a circulatory system abnormality resulting in inadequate organ and tissue oxygen delivery.[1] Shock can present in many forms, but the most common form in blunt and penetrating injury that decreases circulating volume is hemorrhagic shock.

As a patient begins to hemorrhage, compensatory mechanisms initiate to lower hydrostatic pressure in the vasculature. The adrenal glands release catecholamine, which increases heart rate and systemic vascular resistance, thereby increasing cardiac output and tissue perfusion pressure. Through osmosis, interstitial fluid moves into the vascular space as the hydrostatic pressure of the vessels decreases, based on Starlings law.[2] Second, the liver and spleen secrete stored erythrocytes and plasma into the bloodstream. Renin also is secreted from the kidneys, stimulating aldosterone and antidiuretic hormone and causing water retention. [2]

Compensation is finite and can be overcome by persistent hemorrhage, defined as intravascular volume depleted by 15%.[2 and 3] Perfusion to the heart and brain is maintained at the expense of the renal, skin, muscle, and splanchnic blood flow. [2, 3, 4, 5 and 6] This shift leads to organ ischemia and potential failure, significantly increasing the risk for multiple organ dysfunction syndrome. [2 and 5]

Decreasing availability of oxygen and glucose leads to anaerobic metabolism and gluconeogenesis, causing metabolic wastes to build up. This problem is compounded by the bloodstream's inability to remove the waste because of decreased intravascular volume. The combination of acidic, electrolytic, and enzymatic imbalance impairs cellular function, which may lead to intracellular damage, cellular death, and potentially patient demise.[5]

Fluid resuscitation has been the cardinal treatment for hemorrhagic shock, and normalized blood pressure has been the goal of that treatment. It seems logical that, if we restore intravascular volume and normalize pressure, we increase cardiac output and perfusion pressure, keeping the patient alive until surgery. The assumption that positive outcomes will be achieved if physiological parameters are normalized partially stemmed from experimental work on animal models of hemorrhage in the 1950s and 1960s. This was usually a controlled hemorrhage model in which a known amount of blood volume was removed by a vascular catheter. The animals then were treated with various fluid resuscitation schemes, eventually culminating in the 3:1 rule.[4, 7 and 8] However, hemorrhagic shock typically is uncontrolled with mounting blood loss. As with any physiologically different process, the treatment is usually sequela-specific. [9]

If maintaining blood pressure is the goal, fluid resuscitation is the treatment. Keeping in mind the definition of shock, our immediate goals clearly are to arrest hemorrhage and maintain oxygen delivery. Although acellular fluid resuscitation may increase cardiac preload, it also may disrupt the formation of thrombus, increase bleeding time, and hemodilute the existing hemoglobin, platelet, and coagulation factors.[4, 6, 7 and 9] Although essential, blood product administration is often beyond the scope of prehospital providers and, therefore, this article.

Because oxygen delivery is paramount, our challenge is to set goals and define measurable responses to treatment. Traditionally, we have relied on normalized blood pressure, heart rate, and urine output to gauge response to treatment of hemorrhagic shock. However, recent research has revealed that 80% of severely traumatized patients who are maintaining normal vitals and urine output still suffer subnormal oxygen delivery, evidenced by increased lactate.[4] It appears both the treatment and assessment tools are missing the mark of measuring oxygen delivery.

An ideological shift has occurred in the past 10 years toward limiting prehospital fluid resuscitation. This idea is certainly not new and was originally proposed by Cannon in 1918 while studying shock in casualties of World War I.[10] This challenge to the long-held dogma that acellular fluid resuscitation improves outcomes remains controversial, but evidence is mounting in its defense.

As hemorrhagic shock begins, the hypotension that ensues actually helps the patient meet 2 goals: arrest of exsanguination and maintenance of existing oxygen delivery. This is accomplished by sparring forming thrombus and maintaining coagulation factor and hemoglobin levels. Once aggressive fluid resuscitation is instituted, increasing blood pressure dislodges thrombus and hemodilutes hemoglobin, platelets, and clotting factors, therefore decreasing overall oxygen delivery.[6, 7, 8, 9 and 11]

The concept of permissive hypotension currently is used in the treatment of abdominal aortic aneurysms as a standard of care.[12 and 13] It has been established that patients suffering from leaking abdominal aortic aneurysms who are maintained at normal pressures result in repeated bleeding. Current treatment aims to keep patients' systolic blood pressure between 70 and 85 until operative intervention can be performed. [12 and 13] Blunt and penetrating trauma resulting in hemorrhagic shock follows a parallel concept.

A recent review of studies indicates that aggressive prehospital fluid resuscitation in hemorrhage does not lead to positive patient outcomes.[4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25]

A 1994 study by Bickell et al[4] on penetrating torso trauma showed a 70% survival rate for delayed fluid resuscitation as opposed to a 62% for the aggressive fluid resuscitation group. This study included 598 patients with a prehospital systolic pressure < 90. The data suggested that patients who were fluid restricted in hypotensive states may be associated with lower mortality, shorter hospital stays, and fewer postoperative complications.

Another study by Kowalenko et al[17] using pigs with intraperitoneal hemorrhage to simulate hemorrhagic shock came to similar conclusions. Saline infusion to maintain a mean arterial pressure (MAP) of 40 in one group, 80 in the second, and none in the third revealed a survival rate of 87.5%, 37.5%, and 12.5%, respectively. [17]

A similar study done by Stern et al[18] using pigs with groups given saline to maintain MAP of 40, 60, and 80 were observed for 60 minutes or until death. The group maintained at 80 MAP had the highest mortality rate with a mean survival time of 44 minutes. The authors concluded that attempts to normalize blood pressure resulted in higher mortality rates and increased hemorrhage volumes. [18]

Yet another study[8] conducted at Ben Taub Trauma Center in Texas of 598 patients with penetrating torso injuries and prehospital hypotension came to similar conclusions. Those who received 2.5 liters of fluid had a 62% survival rate, but those administered < 0.5 liters had a 70% survival rate.
(to be continued)...
 
(... continued from previous post)
The US military also has begun to follow suit. Military physicians at the 1998 special operations workshop on urban warfare agree that permissive hypotension is the preferred prehospital treatment. They suggested that any patient who has mental status changes or becomes unconscious (correlating to a systolic pressure of 50 or lower) should be given enough fluid to improve mentation and a systolic pressure of 70.[19 and 20] These same recommendations have been echoed by the Office of Naval Research since their 2001/2002 consensus conferences. [21]

Research in studies of large animals with uncontrolled hemorrhage found that thrombus dislodgement occurred at blood pressure of 80 systolic.[17] Researches have adopted the term popping the clot for this phenomenon. This same result has been found in randomized human trials as well.[4, 22, 23 and 24]

This valuable piece of information gives prehospital providers a measurable goal. A systolic blood pressure of 80 (correlating to a MAP of 40-50), which generally equates to a radial pulse, along with appropriate mentation now can be gauges by which to treat a patient with uncontrolled hemorrhagic shock.[4, 6, 7, 8, 19, 20 and 25]

In conclusion, there is still much work to be done, in the form of large randomized trials, to make a definitive statement with regard to permissive hypotension. However, in light of the current evidence for the theory, there is no doubt a change is coming. It is our responsibility as flight crews to make clinical decisions and use treatment options that are evidence based and in the best interest of the patient. Positive long-term outcomes for uncontrolled hemorrhagic shock have proven to be statistically higher in patients who have been fluid restricted. It is easy to continue to do things "as they have always been done." The challenge to health care practitioners today is to keep an open mind to new ideas contrary to old dogma.

References

1. RH Alexander and HJ Proctor. Advanced trauma life support student manual, American College of Surgeons, Chicago (1993).

2. KM Baldwin, SS Davey, SE Morris and Burger M Shock, multiple organ dysfunction syndrome, and burns in adults. In: KL McCance and SE Huether, Editors, Pathophysiology: the biologic basis for disease in adults and children, Mosby, St Louis (1998).

3. Scott RA Shock. In: P Cameron, G Jelinek, AM Kelly, L Murray and J Heyworth, Editors, Textbook of adult emergency medicine, Churchill Livingstone, Edinburgh (2000).

4. WH Bickell, MJ Wall, Jr, PE Pepe, RR Martin, VF Ginger, MK Allen et al., Immediate versus delayed fluid resuscitation for hypotensive patients with penetrating torso injuries. N Engl J Med 331 (1994), pp. 1105&#8211;1109.

5. PJF Baskett, Management of hypovolaemic shock. Br Med J 300 (1990), pp. 1453&#8211;1457.

6. KL Mattox, SI Brundage and A Hirshberg. Initial resuscitation New Horiz 7 (1999), pp. 4&#8211;9.

7. S Henry and TM Scalea, Resuscitation in the new millennium. Surg Circles North Am 79 (1999), pp. 1259&#8211;1267.

8. SA Tisherman, Regardless of origin, uncontrolled hemorrhage is uncontrolled hemorrhage. Crit Care Med 28 (2000), pp. 892&#8211;894.

9. E Solomonov, M Hirsh, A Yayiya and MM Krausz, The effect of vigorous fluid resuscitation in uncontrolled hemorrhagic shock after massive splenic injury. Crit Care Med 28 (2000), pp. 749&#8211;754.

10. WB Cannon, J Fraser and E Cowell, The preventative treatment of wound shock. JAMA 47 (1918), p. 618.

11. WH Bickell, Are victims of injury sometimes victimized by attempts at fluid resuscitation?. Ann Emerg Med 22 (1993), pp. 225&#8211;226.

12. ES Crawford, Ruptured abdominal aortic aneurysm: an editorial. J Vasc Surg 13 (1991), pp. 348&#8211;350.

13. SM Kaweski, MJ Sise and RW Virgilio, The effects of prehospital fluids on survival in trauma patients. J Trauma 30 (1990), pp. 1215&#8211;1218.

14. B Abou-Khalil, TM Scalea, SZ Trooskin, SM Henery and R Hitchcock, Hemodynamic responses to shock in young trauma patients: need for invasive monitoring. Crit Care Med 22 (1994), pp. 633&#8211;639.

15. SM Kaweski, MJ Sise and RW Virgilio, The effects of prehospital fluids on survival in trauma patients. J Trauma 30 (1990), pp. 1215&#8211;1218.

16. I Kwan, F Bunn and I Robert, on behalf of the WHO Prehospital Trauma Care Steering Committee. Timing and volume of fluid administration for patients. The Cochrane Library 4 (2003).

17. T Kowalenko, S Stern, S Dronen and X Wang, Improved outcome with hypotensive resuscitation of uncontrolled hemorrhagic shock in a swine model. J Trauma 33 (1992), pp. 349&#8211;353.

18. SA Stern, SC Dronen, P Birrer and X Wang, Effect of blood pressure on hemorrhage volume and survival in a near-fatal hemorrhage model incorporating a vascular injury. Ann Emerg Med 22 (1993), pp. 155&#8211;163.

19. FK Butler, JH Hagmann et al., Tactical management of urban warfare casualties in special operations. Mil Med 165 4,supp (2000), pp. 1&#8211;48.

20. FJ Peace and WS Lyons, Logistics of parental fluids in battlefield resuscitation. Mil Med 164 (1999), pp. 653&#8211;655.

21. Champion HR. The combat fluid resuscitation conferences. J Trauma. In press.

22. RP Dutton, CF MacKenzie and TM Scalea, Hypotensive resuscitation during active hemorrhage: impact on in-hospital mortality. J Trauma 52 (2002), pp. 1141&#8211;1146.

23. J Turner, J Nicholl, L Webber, H Cox, S Dixon and D Yates, A randomized controlled trial of prehospital intravenous fluid replacement therapy in serious trauma. Health Technol Assess 4 (2000), pp. 1&#8211;57.

24. TH Owens, WC Watson, DS Prough, T Uchida and GC Kramer, Limiting initial resuscitation of uncontrolled hemorrhage reduces internal bleeding and subsequent volume requirements. J Trauma 39 (1995), pp. 200&#8211;209.

25. E Dahan, S Orbach and YG Weiss, Fluid management in trauma. Int Anesthesiol Clin 38 (2000), pp. 141&#8211;148.
 
Nice lit review.....nothing to terribly involved.

And yes I believe he was completely caught off guard by the fact that we're not all slack-jawed troglodytes who take him at his word simply because he's a flight nurse. He received a similar shock when he started posting on the trauma-l.
 
First off, let me assure you this is peer reviewed and legitimate. Please, dont insult my intelligence. I dont know you, but there is a pretty good chance ive been at this ALOT longer than you.

(here is the reference for you.
Air Med J. 2005 Mar-Apr;24(2):70-2.
Permissive hypotension: a change in thinking.
Mackinnon MA.
PMID: 15741952 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE])

The military is now using the STANDING PROTOCOL of Permissive Hypotension for all blunt and penetrating trauma. If you want to see the data you will have to find it, i have it in a PDF file which is massive. The protocols for permissive hypotension in the military come from this data.

As far as if a study can be manipulated. I will simply reference 2 which are well known in the medical community. Amiodarone and "The Golden Hour".

Anyway, refrences below. Took me 3 minutes on medline.

Ann Emerg Med. 1995 Feb;25(2):187-92.
Variation in air medical outcomes by crew composition: a two-year follow-up.
Burney RE, Hubert D, Passini L, Maio R.
Department of Surgery, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

J Trauma. 1991 Apr;31(4):490-4. Related Articles, Links
Helicopter transport of trauma victims: does a physician make a difference?
Hamman BL, Cue JI, Miller FB, O'Brien DA, House T, Polk HC Jr, Richardson JD.

Ann Emerg Med. 1992 Apr;21(4):375-8. Related Articles, Links
Comparison of aeromedical crew performance by patient severity and outcome.
Burney RE, Passini L, Hubert D, Maio R.

J Air Med Transp. 1991 Nov;10(11):7-10. Related Articles, Links
The air medical crew: is a flight physician necessary?
Bader GB, Terhorst M, Heilman P, DePalma JA. Related Articles, Links
Abstract Characteristics of flight nursing practice.

Conn Med. 1999 Nov;63(11):677-82. Related Articles, Links
Helicopter air medical transport: ten-year outcomes for trauma patients in a New England program.
Jacobs LM, Gabram SG, Sztajnkrycer MD, Robinson KJ, Libby MC.

ERMudPhud said:
A case report or review in what I am not even sure is a peer reviewed journal is hardly definitive. The only definitive clinical trial I've seen was Dr. Maddox's study from more than 10 years ago showing improved outcomes with what was in their case, at that time, nearly complete non-intervention, not just "permissive" hypotension. My vague recollection was that there was some protocal violations in the nonintervention arm of that study as well. In any event it was an heroic effort and I'm sure quite difficult to both do the study and to get it past the IRB. If permissive hypotension becomes standard of care this study will certainly be the foundation that everyone points to. Remember though, that study looked only at penetrating chest trauma in an urban area with short transport times. Generalizing beyond that rather restricted patient population is risky. Given those initial results I'm disappointed but not surprised that it wasn't followed by a large multicenter trial looking at multiple types of trauma (difficult to fund when you are essentially advocating nonintervention). That is what we need to really prove conclusively the appropriate initial fluid management in trauma.

The current military activity in Iraq and Afghanistan would certainly provide the perfect setting to test the hypothesis since you have literally thousand of trauma patients both blunt and penetrating with a variety of transport times. Despite Mike's assurance that the Iraq and Afghanistan data "100%" supports permissive hypotension I am not yet aware of any published data comparing outcomes with normal versus restricted fluids from that setting. Even the military consensus statement that Dr. Maddox mentions in his editorial recommends more fluid than he generally advocates.



I don't have time to go through your whole bibliography and despite my familiarity with medline I was unable to "look it up". Can you just point me to the one study which shows better outcomes with RN EMT-P? Not a textbook, consensus statement, policy, or review article but an actual study.



If the studies are done appropriately and the statistics applied correctly then they don't lie. That what we call evidence based medicine. Its not this simple but if 100 trauma patients are transported by ground and an identical 100 by air and 65 from each group survive than you have to conclude air made no difference regardless of your personal experience of however many patients "never would have made it if it weren't for the helicopter." By the same token if another 100 are transported by the "home-boy" ambulance service with identical results then EMS made no difference. (There is some data in certain restricted settings to support this) You still have to ask yourself if the study population resembles your situation. If you are in charge of EMS for the Alaskan bush its probably not a good idea to base your decisions on the results of the "home-boy" ambulance service of Detroit since the home-boy density in the Alaskan bush is much lower than in inner city Detroit.
 
Mike MacKinnon said:
First off, let me assure you this is peer reviewed and legitimate. Please, dont insult my intelligence. I dont know you, but there is a pretty good chance ive been at this ALOT longer than you.

Air Medical Journal is a legitimate peer-reviewed journal for original research, but it's not your typical medical journal like NEJM, JAMA, etc. The fact that it offers "how to" articles and such makes it seem like a magazine. However, this is beside the point. An overview or brief writeup does not need peer review. Only original research needs peer review.

Second, Mike, even if you have been doing this a lot longer than a lot of us, that's beside the point. Experience does not completely substitute for education. Nursing school is not the same as medical school. The vast majority of physicians are trained more on evidence-based medicine than nurses are. No, this is NOT meant to be a putdown of nursing.

Third, keep in mind that a significant number of people making these posts -- myself included -- have had significant pre-hospital experience as a paramedic, flight paramedic, etc.

Last, just because the military is doing it doesn't mean it's supported by rock-solid science. Do I need to bring up the use of PASG by the military, which was carried over to the public setting only later to be found to increase mortality with all but pelvic and lower extremity injuries?

This is an excellent discussion, but probably one that has moved from the original topic at hand. First we started off discussing which is best to provide trauma care in the field (anesthesia v. EM), to helicopter transport reducing mortality in patients, to permissive hypotension, to what now is bordering on a pissing contest.
 
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own!"
*snort* How appropriate :laugh:

As for permissive hypotension- I agree that it's the best course of action given current data. My disagreement is with rampant and non-selective use of air transport. I also should state that I agree with you on the issues of amiodarone (it has it's place but it wasn't the cure all it was touted to be) and the golden hour principle (which was the primary impetus for the development of aeromedical services- but I think I need not point the inanity of your lack of support for the very existence of what you are a most staunch defender.)

In regards to "doing this" a lot longer than others- how long pray tell have you been in nursing? How much field experience?

As my grandfather liked to say, "Anyone who says they know better simply because they have more experience is a fool. Experience without education is just a good way to increase your comfort with making the same mistakes again and again."
 
Yes this is an excellent discussion. I have enjoyed it and not taken anything personally (except the journal thing 😛).

I also agree that education and EBM is a good thing, thats why im going to medical school 🙂

I would also agree that air medical is way overused. Unfortunately I am not allowed to turn down flights regardless of my personal views... it is frustrating as it diminishes the service.

Overall i think it was very contructive and its always fun to argue dont you think?

have a good one!

southerndoc said:
Air Medical Journal is a legitimate peer-reviewed journal for original research, but it's not your typical medical journal like NEJM, JAMA, etc. The fact that it offers "how to" articles and such makes it seem like a magazine. However, this is beside the point. An overview or brief writeup does not need peer review. Only original research needs peer review.

Second, Mike, even if you have been doing this a lot longer than a lot of us, that's beside the point. Experience does not completely substitute for education. Nursing school is not the same as medical school. The vast majority of physicians are trained more on evidence-based medicine than nurses are. No, this is NOT meant to be a putdown of nursing.

Third, keep in mind that a significant number of people making these posts -- myself included -- have had significant pre-hospital experience as a paramedic, flight paramedic, etc.

Last, just because the military is doing it doesn't mean it's supported by rock-solid science. Do I need to bring up the use of PASG by the military, which was carried over to the public setting only later to be found to increase mortality with all but pelvic and lower extremity injuries?

This is an excellent discussion, but probably one that has moved from the original topic at hand. First we started off discussing which is best to provide trauma care in the field (anesthesia v. EM), to helicopter transport reducing mortality in patients, to permissive hypotension, to what now is bordering on a pissing contest.
 
Hi Steve

Yes the golden hour deal was essentially Made Up by cowley to support his ideas. There isnt and, nor has there been since any evidence to support it. Air medical is much more than trauma, however, and as we all know trauma codes all die.

I defend Air Med in that I know it has made a difference as a first hand provider. I also totally agree it is overused. Then again, so is EMS in general.

I have been doing this for a little over 10 years. The last 4 in the field. I was a paramedic before that for a couple of years. I still work in hospital both ICU and ER. Certainly I agree about education and experience hence my going to med school. However, it is also true that education does not equal experience. I can, and have many times, spent hours pouring over books and doing research however, those without experience cannot do the same.

In anycase, none of this is personal it is just interesting and fun to discuss.

ISU_Steve said:
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own!"
*snort* How appropriate :laugh:

As for permissive hypotension- I agree that it's the best course of action given current data. My disagreement is with rampant and non-selective use of air transport. I also should state that I agree with you on the issues of amiodarone (it has it's place but it wasn't the cure all it was touted to be) and the golden hour principle (which was the primary impetus for the development of aeromedical services- but I think I need not point the inanity of your lack of support for the very existence of what you are a most staunch defender.)

In regards to "doing this" a lot longer than others- how long pray tell have you been in nursing? How much field experience?

As my grandfather liked to say, "Anyone who says they know better simply because they have more experience is a fool. Experience without education is just a good way to increase your comfort with making the same mistakes again and again."
 
Yes the trauma list is excellent. It has challenged me in many ways as have many of the other lists i am/have been on. In fact it was Dr Mattox (whom i met briefly at the last trauma and critical care conf in Vegas) who challenged me to write the literature review to learn more about the concept. I like many was always taught 3:1.

As i remember you might have been one of the people who was pro needle thoracentesis when we were discussing it a little over a year ago, i was on the same side. Maybe it wasent you im not sure. Still no research there but ive been working on it, sadly prehospital research is difficult to quantify and the researcher is often left with qualitative data.

As far as caught off guard? Not at all. I did place some articles from both sides in the posts i made. I can only post the research that is avaliable, not all of it will always go my way. I did not get a "similar shock" at all on the trauma list. I post things I have read or been taught or see in practice and learn from those on the list with more experience. By their nature they like to challenge. I learn from them, its worth it. Better than just hiding in the shadows and not participating, in my opinion.

As for my article, it was alot of work and in doing it I think i gained a strong understanding of the mechanisms by which PH work. It is also nice to publish since few people in general do.

You mention my being a nurse. I have no idea what your credentials are or what your experiences are however, i am proud of mine. They reflect hard work, dedication and education.

ISU_Steve said:
Nice lit review.....nothing to terribly involved.

And yes I believe he was completely caught off guard by the fact that we're not all slack-jawed troglodytes who take him at his word simply because he's a flight nurse. He received a similar shock when he started posting on the trauma-l.
 
I'm an respiratory therapist, among several other things.

Yes, I was one of the ones asking for proof that needle decompression was really as lacking in usefulness as Dr. Mattox implied it to be. I actually spoke with him briefly by e-mail about doing a research project on the topic but the idea fell through for political reasons (namely the local EMS hierarchy was radically altered and things became very closeminded around parts of this area that would have once been suitable study sites).
 
I too discussed a research project with him via the phone. Sadly, there is such difficulty getting information from other agencies was near impossible. I did follow through with the discussions he suggested I have with local trauma Doctors and ER docs from various facilities and even did a survey. The Doc's were quite split on the topic and though there is no research for needle decompression those who believed in it defended it feverently.

In the end I had to stop the project. I had no way to quantify anything at all. I had a large database at the hospitals and my service to use, however, everything in them was basically subjective. It was frustrating to say the least. Had alot of anecdotal testimony from various providers including physicians and absolutely no way to tie positive outcomes to needle decompression.

I think it works, i cant prove it. Of course, there are many things in medicine which we know makes a difference but isnt studied or backed up by research. All the mysteries cant be answered at once I suppose!




ISU_Steve said:
I'm an respiratory therapist, among several other things.

Yes, I was one of the ones asking for proof that needle decompression was really as lacking in usefulness as Dr. Mattox implied it to be. I actually spoke with him briefly by e-mail about doing a research project on the topic but the idea fell through for political reasons (namely the local EMS hierarchy was radically altered and things became very closeminded around parts of this area that would have once been suitable study sites).
 
ISU_Steve said:
Most anesthesiologists are damn good at maintaining BP's and such and securing airways, but as was said, initial workups are not their forte'.

As for "initial workups", remember this is in the field, and most docs in general are not the most astute at working in the field because of their lack of experience in it. Personally I think you'd be much better served by having a competent paramedic (or EMT-I) taking care of you. There have been actually studies done showing that trauma patients who are transported by services utilizing physicians in the prehospital setting have LOWER survival rates than those attended only by EMT's and paramedics. The study I read discussing this attributed it to the fact that docs are more likely to spend more time in the field attempting to "stabilize" the patient prior to transport.

Well said. I was a firefighter/paramedic before med school...with a cardiac issue you can sit there in Winn Dixie by the lettuce and intubate the guy on the floor, play with your Life Pack and drug box...
a critical trauma pt gets spinal immobilization and sans apnea, everything gets done in the unit on the way to the hospital. If they're internally bleeding, which many are, they need an operating room. Quick.
 
Mike MacKinnon said:
I too discussed a research project with him via the phone. Sadly, there is such difficulty getting information from other agencies was near impossible. I did follow through with the discussions he suggested I have with local trauma Doctors and ER docs from various facilities and even did a survey. The Doc's were quite split on the topic and though there is no research for needle decompression those who believed in it defended it feverently.

In the end I had to stop the project. I had no way to quantify anything at all. I had a large database at the hospitals and my service to use, however, everything in them was basically subjective. It was frustrating to say the least. Had alot of anecdotal testimony from various providers including physicians and absolutely no way to tie positive outcomes to needle decompression.

I think it works, i cant prove it. Of course, there are many things in medicine which we know makes a difference but isnt studied or backed up by research. All the mysteries cant be answered at once I suppose!
I really think you would enjoy joining our EMS forums at www.EMTCity.com

We have a good group, both from a standpoint of having several very bright people there and in a social sense too (things have a tendency to go from really heated debate to insane levels of stupid humor) so there's a little bit of anything anyone who is interested in EMS could want.
 
pushinepi2 said:
...and other objects were shoved into a siezing patient's mouth in an effort to respect the airway. QUOTE]

Those who fail to respect the airway proceed at their own peril.
 
Mike MacKinnon said:
First off, let me assure you this is peer reviewed and legitimate.

I'm aware that research articles in Air Medical Journal are peer reviewed but despite going to the publishers website and reading all the info they had for authors it was not at all clear that reviews were peer reviewed (they often are not)

Mike MacKinnon said:
(here is the reference for you.
Air Med J. 2005 Mar-Apr;24(2):70-2.
Permissive hypotension: a change in thinking.
Mackinnon MA.
PMID: 15741952 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE])
Thanks but I had no problem finding the article on line via the publisher. In reading the review you reconfirm the fact that only one CLINICAL study pointed to improved survival with permissive hypotension.

This...
Mike MacKinnon said:
A 1994 study by Bickell et al[4] on penetrating torso trauma showed a 70% survival rate for delayed fluid resuscitation as opposed to a 62% for the aggressive fluid resuscitation group. This study included 598 patients with a prehospital systolic pressure < 90. The data suggested that patients who were fluid restricted in hypotensive states may be associated with lower mortality, shorter hospital stays, and fewer postoperative complications.

and this...

Mike MacKinnon said:
Yet another study[8] conducted at Ben Taub Trauma Center in Texas of 598 patients with penetrating torso injuries and prehospital hypotension came to similar conclusions. Those who received 2.5 liters of fluid had a 62% survival rate, but those administered < 0.5 liters had a 70% survival rate.
are the same study but I think your reference #8 is a mistake since #8 in your bibliography is an editorial comment published in 2000 and not a clinical study. The Ben Taub group did publish their data twice first as a preliminary result in 1992 in J Trauma and later in 1994 in the NEJM

You then go on to say

Mike MacKinnon said:
Research in studies of large animals with uncontrolled hemorrhage found that thrombus dislodgement occurred at blood pressure of 80 systolic.[17] Researches have adopted the term popping the clot for this phenomenon. This same result has been found in randomized human trials as well.[4, 22, 23 and 24]
Reference 4 is the Ben Taub study
Refefence 22 actually showed "Titration of initial fluid therapy to a lower than normal SBP during active hemorrhage did not affect mortality in this study"
Reference 23 actually showed no difference and also showed how difficult it is to actually do this kind of study with 30% of patients in the "fluids" arm not getting any fluids and 20% of patients in the "no fluids" arm getting fluids
Reference 24 is an animal model

Did you read these article before you said that four clinical trials supported permissive hypotension? If you did then you either didn't understand what you read or you misrepresented what you read.


The original statement I asked you to support with references was the following:

Mike MacKinnon said:
As far as physicians on helicopters, well all research on pt outcomes shows only one team to have the best outcomes of doc-rn, doc-emt-p, rn-rn, emt-p emt-p, rn emt-p. Its the last one RN EMT-P. Look it up.

Your response...
Mike MacKinnon said:
Anyway, refrences below. Took me 3 minutes on medline.

Ann Emerg Med. 1995 Feb;25(2):187-92.
Variation in air medical outcomes by crew composition: a two-year follow-up.
Burney RE, Hubert D, Passini L, Maio R.
Department of Surgery, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.
A retrospective review comparing MD-RN to RN-RN. No difference found. No mention of your favorite RN-EMTP
Mike MacKinnon said:
Ann Emerg Med. 1992 Apr;21(4):375-8. Related Articles, Links
Comparison of aeromedical crew performance by patient severity and outcome.
Burney RE, Passini L, Hubert D, Maio R.
The same study
Mike MacKinnon said:
J Trauma. 1991 Apr;31(4):490-4. Related Articles, Links
Helicopter transport of trauma victims: does a physician make a difference?
Hamman BL, Cue JI, Miller FB, O'Brien DA, House T, Polk HC Jr, Richardson JD.
Compared presence or absence of physician and found no difference but certainly did not address the question "Is RN-EMTP the best flight crew?"
Mike MacKinnon said:
J Air Med Transp. 1991 Nov;10(11):7-10. Related Articles, Links
The air medical crew: is a flight physician necessary?
A review or policy statement not evidence
Mike MacKinnon said:
Bader GB, Terhorst M, Heilman P, DePalma JA. Related Articles, Links
Abstract Characteristics of flight nursing practice.
This time a survey of scope of practice of flight nurses but nothing about comparing which air crew is best.
Mike MacKinnon said:
Conn Med. 1999 Nov;63(11):677-82. Related Articles, Links
Helicopter air medical transport: ten-year outcomes for trauma patients in a New England program.
Jacobs LM, Gabram SG, Sztajnkrycer MD, Robinson KJ, Libby MC.

A retrospective comparison of air transport versus ground using historical controls. A method fraught with peril and which nonetheless says nothing about RN-EMTP crews versus other crews.

So once again I have to ask, "Did you read any of these articles or even the abstracts before inflicting your medline dump on the rest of us"


As for this...
Mike MacKinnon said:
I dont know you, but there is a pretty good chance ive been at this ALOT longer than you.

If you mean how long have I been doing emergency medicine then the answer is a bit over 7 years.

If you mean how long have I been doing research along with reading, writing, and reviewing research papers then the answer is about 19 years.


As for this...
Mike MacKinnon said:
The military is now using the STANDING PROTOCOL of Permissive Hypotension for all blunt and penetrating trauma. If you want to see the data you will have to find it, i have it in a PDF file which is massive. The protocols for permissive hypotension in the military come from this data.

This seems to spring from the same "The support I have is massive and conclusive and it is not my fault if you are too dense to see it or find it" which permeated your other posts. Send me the PDF I'd love to read it. I suspect it is a review of the one clinical trial and all the animal data that is already in the literature.

In short, does permissive hypotension make sense to me: Yes. Do I think it will gradually become standard of care: Yes. Do I generally practice that way: Yes. But, I abhor sloppy thinking or misrepresentation of research
 
Wow pretty inflammatory post there. Let me respond.

- Clincial studies on permissive hypotension wont be common, i know of no other except stats coming from the military.

-Thanks for attacking me as opposed to having a discussion well done. first off:

Research in studies of large animals with uncontrolled hemorrhage found that thrombus dislodgement occurred at blood pressure of 80 systolic.[17] Researches have adopted the term popping the clot for this phenomenon. This same result has been found in randomized human trials as well.[4, 22, 23 and 24]

Dosent say anywhere that mortality was decreased. What it does say is that the evidence has shown clots pop @ 80 systolic and the use of the term popping the clot. Please, dont read into what is there, you added what you "thought" I said.

As far as the research articles: I read them all, i have them all here and I understood them just fine. I utilized them appropriately and had multiple physicians, local trauma Docs and nurses read this article before submission. I had it peer reviewed myself besides what the journal did. They all were in agreement. Oh and by the way, they all had the reference articles i provided to cross check for accuracy. Total of 6 physicians (who have known me for years) and 6 nurses.

- If you want the military information i invite you to get it yourself, the reference is right there.
Butler FK, Hagmann JH, et al. Tactical management of urban warfare casualties in special
operations. Mil Med 2000;165(4,supp):1-48.
20. Peace FJ, Lyons WS. Logistics of parental fluids in battlefield resuscitation. Mil Med
1999;164:653-5.
21. Champion HR. The combat fluid resuscitation conferences. J Trauma. In press.

The new information from iraq and afganistan i was pointed to by Dr. Mattox, again, i had to pay for it if you want it take some responsibility upon yourself and get it. Some of research is well over 20 pages long. BTW, thanks for the dripping sarcasm of "im sure its a review of the animal trials" again goes to your character. The stats from afganistan and iraq dont include animals, they are on soldiers who have suffered trauma and the statistically signifigant decrease in mortality related to the change to a STANDARD permissive hypotension protocol.


- Your correct, there are policy statements about RN - EMT-P teams but no direct research, however as you stated (and the articles all back up) there is absolutely no difference in mortaility or outcomes with a physician added. So it clearly stands to reason that and RN-RN or RN - EMT-p team functions as well. My preference for RN- EMT-P surrounds the clear expertise they have dealing with 3 specific things:
1) Scene's and how they work
2) Airway and intubation
3) Rapid assessment in trauma patients.

Have you ever worked Air Medical? Actually, i dont have to ask of course you havent.

Now thanks for the attempt to slander me, lets people see your colors. However, you may have noticed I was the only one showing any evidence at all. Clearly, there isnt perfect research for everything nor will there ever be, however that does not mean extrapolations cannot and are not made.

In anycase have a good day. I wont be replying to anything else your write since clearly, you have no respect for others and the work they do/have done.
 
Mike MacKinnon said:
Wow pretty inflammatory post there. Let me respond...

I think this is unfortunately a typical example of how peoples intentions are misread in online forums and we sometimes say things we might not otherwise say. I'm sure long time posters here can vouch for the fact that I rarely resort to personal attacks. It was certainly not my intention to slander you or attack you personally. I believe most of my post was devoted to looking at the strong statements you had made and the evidence you had provided for them. Saying that you misunderstood or misrepresented the articles you read is harsh but I believe somewhat correct in this case.

You can not say when discussing permissive hypotentions and the pop-the-clot hypothesis that, "This same result has been found in randomized human trials as well." and then support that with 1 reference that actually supports your statement, two that clearly do not support your statement, and one that isn't even a human trial. Your presentation of the "Ben Taub" study and the "Bickell et al" study as two distinct studies when they are in fact one study is a similar but less egregious error. A naive reader reading your paper would be led to believe that as many as five randomized controlled trials (the gold standard of clinical research) supported permissive hypotension when in fact we only have one very good trial in support of the hypothesis. You are doing a disservice to your reader when you misrepresent the literature in this way.

Similarly, you can not say, "all research on pt outcomes shows only one team to have the best outcomes of doc-rn, doc-emt-p, rn-rn, emt-p emt-p, rn emt-p. Its the last one RN EMT-P. Look it up." and then support it with 6 references that don't even address the question of outcomes with RN-EMTP vs other teams. That is like referencing articles on aspirin in acute MI while discussing thrombolytics in MI. This is again misrepresenting the literature. As a side note, I find your constant use of "look it up" and the like to be somewhat patronizing but that is perhaps again the effect of online discussions.


As for the current military use of restricted fluid resuscitation and data from Iraq and Afghanistan I'm truly sorry that my comments were taken to imply that I thought soldiers represented animal models. I never intended that and I hope most readers didn't take it that way. I was merely stating that I believe that most of the data the military used in reaching the decision to restrict fluid resuscitation was based on the animal models and the Ben Taub study as that is all we have to go on so far. The most recent Champion HR consensus conference review that I could find(2003) did not change that impression. The new data from Iraq and Afghanistan that you purchased and that you have again somewhat patronizingly advised me to "take some responsibility upon yourself and get it" is apparently as of yet unpublished. If there is a place where you can buy unpublished data than please tell me as I would be more than willing to buy and read it. I'm quite interested in what it has to show. Just to be clear those last two sentences are not sarcastic. I truly would be interested in buying and reading those reports.

You are correct my total exposure to prehospital work is limited to my experience some years ago in residency. However my experience in evaluating research and the medical literature was more extensive than most of my attendings even when I was a resident. I won't tell you how to manage a scene or who to put in your helicopter but for your next paper I will be more than happy to review it for you. As you can see I won't be great at catching spelling or punctuation mistakes but I will tell you if the statements you are making are supported by the literature you site. This is also a sincere statement.
 
Hey No problem. I agree, the downside to forums is that often posts are taken in a way that they are not meant. I am as guilty as anyone. After reading how i wrote some of my pervious posts i began to have a feeling that could only be described best by Homer J Simpson as "D'oh".

It is actually nice to have someone who dosent know me from Adam make me think a bit. When i went back and read my paper I can totally see how you came to that conclusion. Though I never intended to portray it that way I now see what you mean.

I also have to fess up to the fact that I used research which simply showed that physicians didnt change outcomes to back up my assumption that RN/EMT-P is a better model. I think it is, but you are right there isnt any data to be found to support it. I do apologise for sounding patronizing, i didnt mean it that way but it certainly reads that way.

I will email you here and see if i can send you everything i have from the military. Pretty neat stuff. I also too would love to have you read my next article. It isnt done but i appreciate your offer and Ill send it when its somewhat presentable. This one isnt on trauma but Brugada syndrome a Ca channel genetic abnormatlity which can cause syncope from acute and sudden Vtach. Scary stuff.

Again, i apologise for coming off as an ass. It wasent my intention but i do see it in the posts. I appreciate your comments, they are helpful in developing my skill. Even lit reviews are a little daunting when you consider people from all over will read your work, but i like doing them as i learn so much from the research.

Ill email you shortly!





ERMudPhud said:
I think this is unfortunately a typical example of how peoples intentions are misread in online forums and we sometimes say things we might not otherwise say. I'm sure long time posters here can vouch for the fact that I rarely resort to personal attacks. It was certainly not my intention to slander you or attack you personally. I believe most of my post was devoted to looking at the strong statements you had made and the evidence you had provided for them. Saying that you misunderstood or misrepresented the articles you read is harsh but I believe somewhat correct in this case.

You can not say when discussing permissive hypotentions and the pop-the-clot hypothesis that, "This same result has been found in randomized human trials as well." and then support that with 1 reference that actually supports your statement, two that clearly do not support your statement, and one that isn't even a human trial. Your presentation of the "Ben Taub" study and the "Bickell et al" study as two distinct studies when they are in fact one study is a similar but less egregious error. A naive reader reading your paper would be led to believe that as many as five randomized controlled trials (the gold standard of clinical research) supported permissive hypotension when in fact we only have one very good trial in support of the hypothesis. You are doing a disservice to your reader when you misrepresent the literature in this way.

Similarly, you can not say, "all research on pt outcomes shows only one team to have the best outcomes of doc-rn, doc-emt-p, rn-rn, emt-p emt-p, rn emt-p. Its the last one RN EMT-P. Look it up." and then support it with 6 references that don't even address the question of outcomes with RN-EMTP vs other teams. That is like referencing articles on aspirin in acute MI while discussing thrombolytics in MI. This is again misrepresenting the literature. As a side note, I find your constant use of "look it up" and the like to be somewhat patronizing but that is perhaps again the effect of online discussions.


As for the current military use of restricted fluid resuscitation and data from Iraq and Afghanistan I'm truly sorry that my comments were taken to imply that I thought soldiers represented animal models. I never intended that and I hope most readers didn't take it that way. I was merely stating that I believe that most of the data the military used in reaching the decision to restrict fluid resuscitation was based on the animal models and the Ben Taub study as that is all we have to go on so far. The most recent Champion HR consensus conference review that I could find(2003) did not change that impression. The new data from Iraq and Afghanistan that you purchased and that you have again somewhat patronizingly advised me to "take some responsibility upon yourself and get it" is apparently as of yet unpublished. If there is a place where you can buy unpublished data than please tell me as I would be more than willing to buy and read it. I'm quite interested in what it has to show. Just to be clear those last two sentences are not sarcastic. I truly would be interested in buying and reading those reports.

You are correct my total exposure to prehospital work is limited to my experience some years ago in residency. However my experience in evaluating research and the medical literature was more extensive than most of my attendings even when I was a resident. I won't tell you how to manage a scene or who to put in your helicopter but for your next paper I will be more than happy to review it for you. As you can see I won't be great at catching spelling or punctuation mistakes but I will tell you if the statements you are making are supported by the literature you site. This is also a sincere statement.
 
Awww. Well done, guys, I saw there were new posts here and as I read the last few, I went from thinking "man, this stupid argument isn't over YET?" to a renewed belief in this folder's cool-headedness (and coolness).

Enough warm fuzzies. Back to work for me.
 
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