Asking about rotations/"scut work" (ADCOMs please weigh in)

[MedPR]

Working on a list of questions to ask ADCOMs during interviews, and I was wondering if the term "scut work" is unique to SDN or if it's something most people will recognize. I realize the idea of what "scut work" actually is may vary, but if I ask an ADCOM about it, will they at least be familiar with the phrase?

In addition, how much time do we usually get to ask questions? 5 minutes? 10? more?

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[DrBowtie]

Asking about scut work would be a giant red flag on an interview.

 

[Jaqen Hghar]

Asking about scut work would be a giant red flag on an interview.

Really? I thought I read somewhere that asking what kind of protections the school has for doing scut was appropriate, since the idea of doing clerkships is to learn instead of doing tasks that have no educational value.

Could you elaborate on why it would not be ok to ask this?

 

[TheMightySmiter]

I would not ask this in your actual interview. You could ask students if you run across any M3s or M4s. M1s and M2s are less likely to know but it can't hurt to ask them.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Really? I thought I read somewhere that asking what kind of protections the school has for doing scut was appropriate, since the idea of doing clerkships is to learn instead of doing tasks that have no educational value.

Could you elaborate on why it would not be ok to ask this?

I think it might come across as arrogant or assuming if brought up to the wrong person.

 

[DrBowtie]

Really? I thought I read somewhere that asking what kind of protections the school has for doing scut was appropriate, since the idea of doing clerkships is to learn instead of doing tasks that have no educational value.

Could you elaborate on why it would not be ok to ask this?

Because the definition of scut work varies so much to that almost any person a task could be considered scut by some and good patient care by others.

You have to realize your audience. The person interviewing you is coming from a training era with no hour caps, no patient census caps and everything that is called scut now was just a part of taking care of patients. They already think we are babies now with our suggested "strategic napping".

Asking about scut before you've ever set foot on a clinical rotation to me signals a whiner or someone not going to be a team player and pitch in to get the work done.

 

[Jaqen Hghar]

I would not ask this in your actual interview. You could ask students if you run across any M3s or M4s. M1s and M2s are less likely to know but it can't hurt to ask them.

Ah, maybe I read something like this. It makes sense to ask the students and not the interviewer.

Disregard my post above.🙂

 

[sliceofbread136]

What about asking how your clinical evaluations are done?

 

[DrBowtie]

What about asking how your clinical evaluations are done?

You can ask, but likely only M3/M4 students or course directors know the nitty gritty like shelf score required, OSCEs etc.
Any other attendings will probably tell you they just submit an evaluation.

 

[MedPR]

Asking about scut work would be a giant red flag on an interview.

Because the definition of scut work varies so much to that almost any person a task could be considered scut by some and good patient care by others.

You have to realize your audience. The person interviewing you is coming from a training era with no hour caps, no patient census caps and everything that is called scut now was just a part of taking care of patients. They already think we are babies now with our suggested "strategic napping".

Asking about scut before you've ever set foot on a clinical rotation to me signals a whiner or someone not going to be a team player and pitch in to get the work done.

Well then. I'm glad I made this thread because I hadn't thought about it like that. FWIW, scut work imo is stuff like getting coffee and anything non-learning/patient care related. I guess that's one less question I'll have to worry about.

Thank you!

 

[Kuuaku]

I would not ask interviewers about this since they are likely removed from scutting students out the way residents might. Most schools offer protected study time, sessions for review with attendings, and classes throughout the clerkship as a way to ensure students are learning.

Ask about the structure of clerkships, since scut work is completely team dependent.

 

[MedPR]

I would not ask interviewers about this since they are likely removed from scutting students out the way residents might. Most schools offer protected study time, sessions for review with attendings, and classes throughout the clerkship as a way to ensure students are learning.

Ask about the structure of clerkships, since scut work is completely team dependent.

Could you elaborate? I wouldn't know where to begin if they asked me to be more specific. My girlfriend just started M3 and it seems like they basically show up for rounds, have short or long call, and just take histories of new patients. What kind of stuff varies from school to school?

 

[mimelim]

Could you elaborate? I wouldn't know where to begin if they asked me to be more specific. My girlfriend just started M3 and it seems like they basically show up for rounds, have short or long call, and just take histories of new patients. What kind of stuff varies from school to school?

First, scut work is a a standard term, anyone in medical school, or who works at one, or at any hospital for that matter knows what you mean.

Second, this all falls under curriculum. It is fair to ask which hospitals students rotate at, if there are plans for expansion to other facilities/locations. M3/M4 scheduling limitations, ability to take time to do research (a month or whatever). That stuff you can ask adcoms.

The politically correct way to talk about scut work is "service vs. education". service = free/cheap labor to do the menial tasks upper levels don't want to do, but need to get done. Education = learning medicine. Every medical school and residency is a balance of both, but it can vary substantially. A major selling point of Yale's gen surg and vascular residencies was, "We just hired 30 NPs/PAs to do the scut work so you can just operate and practice medicine". It is something important to be mindful of, but I would aim the question at current students, not faculty. I don't think anyone would get offended, but I don't think adcoms/faculty necessary realize the rounding team's inner workings.

All of that having been said, I went to a service >= education medical school. But when I showed up in residency, I could dictate whatever I needed to reasonably well (most people struggle a lot starting out) keep a list well updated/managed, coordinate a team, change just about any dressing/wound vac by myself and sort out seemingly stupid floor issues. Be wary of super protected schools/programs. Part of learning medicine is getting your ass kicked a couple of times with information overload. None of that stuff is "medicine", but if you are efficient at getting stuff done, you will be served well in residency. Nothing drives people crazy than a consult taking you an hour or holding up rounds because of whatever you aren't very comfortable with.

 

[MedPR]

First, scut work is a a standard term, anyone in medical school, or who works at one, or at any hospital for that matter knows what you mean.

Second, this all falls under curriculum. It is fair to ask which hospitals students rotate at, if there are plans for expansion to other facilities/locations. M3/M4 scheduling limitations, ability to take time to do research (a month or whatever). That stuff you can ask adcoms.

The politically correct way to talk about scut work is "service vs. education". service = free/cheap labor to do the menial tasks upper levels don't want to do, but need to get done. Education = learning medicine. Every medical school and residency is a balance of both, but it can vary substantially. A major selling point of Yale's gen surg and vascular residencies was, "We just hired 30 NPs/PAs to do the scut work so you can just operate and practice medicine". It is something important to be mindful of, but I would aim the question at current students, not faculty. I don't think anyone would get offended, but I don't think adcoms/faculty necessary realize the rounding team's inner workings.

All of that having been said, I went to a service >= education medical school. But when I showed up in residency, I could dictate whatever I needed to reasonably well (most people struggle a lot starting out) keep a list well updated/managed, coordinate a team, change just about any dressing/wound vac by myself and sort out seemingly stupid floor issues. Be wary of super protected schools/programs. Part of learning medicine is getting your ass kicked a couple of times with information overload. None of that stuff is "medicine", but if you are efficient at getting stuff done, you will be served well in residency. Nothing drives people crazy than a consult taking you an hour or holding up rounds because of whatever you aren't very comfortable with.

Thanks for the info regarding questions to ask adcoms vs questions to ask students. I'll definitely keep that in mind during interviews/tours.

In regard to the last paragraph, you're implying that you were a more capable resident because of the "service" that you had to perform as a medical student on rotations, correct? So in essence you're saying that both service and education have a place in rounds and both can/will serve you well in the future?

 

[DrBowtie]

Thanks for the info regarding questions to ask adcoms vs questions to ask students. I'll definitely keep that in mind during interviews/tours.

In regard to the last paragraph, you're implying that you were a more capable resident because of the "service" that you had to perform as a medical student on rotations, correct? So in essence you're saying that both service and education have a place in rounds and both can/will serve you well in the future?

Questions you ask faculty are not really questions, but rather further opportunities to sell yourself when you can guide the topics.

For instance "I've done a lot of community service for XYZ group and am interested in continuing such work, what kind of opportunities are available?"

Save the nitty gritty for the student lunches/tours. Likely the professors won't know the answers anyway.

And the answer to your last question is that being an efficient member of the team is far more important than medical knowledge. If you can hustle and make things run smoother, you'll have more time to go to conference, read up on patients, etc.

 

[MedPR]

Questions you ask faculty are not really questions, but rather further opportunities to sell yourself when you can guide the topics.

For instance "I've done a lot of community service for XYZ group and am interested in continuing such work, what kind of opportunities are available?"

Save the nitty gritty for the student lunches/tours. Likely the professors won't know the answers anyway.

And the answer to your last question is that being an efficient member of the team is far more important than medical knowledge. If you can hustle and make things run smoother, you'll have more time to go to conference, read up on patients, etc.

Thanks. That's actually one of the questions I had in mind!

Also thank you for the info regarding rotations. My girlfriend just started M3 so I'll pass that along.

 

[deleted103644]

Well then. I'm glad I made this thread because I hadn't thought about it like that. FWIW, scut work imo is stuff like getting coffee and anything non-learning/patient care related. I guess that's one less question I'll have to worry about.

Thank you!

That's actually not the standard definition of scut work.

Usually it refers to menial tasks that could actually be considered part of your medical education, eg patient transport, blood draws, ivs, abgs, dres, ekgs, basically anything that *could* be done by a phlebotomist, nurse, or respiratory tech, but for some reason falls on you.

 

[candav]

I actually did ask an interviewer about it last year and we had a really interesting conversation about it. I came out of that interview basically realizing that I have no practical understanding of how people practice or learn medicine and don't expect to until I hit the wards -- so there's no point in obtaining some random person's account of a concept I only understand in the most abstract terms. Besides, I really can't imagine anyone selecting a school because, "Oh, that guy at my interview told me they do a lot of scut work here."

 

[ucsfstudents]

You can talk about clinical rotations at your interview, but do not ask about scut work. It is not relevant at your stage.

 

[1289]

medPR while i think it's a good idea to come up with a question or two at this stage before your interview, i found that at most of my interviews last year the school answered every single question I had come up with earlier in the day during presentations/etc and I ended up ad-libbing it. i don't have a comment on the scut-work idea just my .02 on coming up with questions right now 😀

 

[Law2Doc]

Asking about scut work would be a giant red flag on an interview.

Agree with this. Adcoms are looking for people with "can do" attitudes who are ready to roll up their sleeves and get to work. Starting off by carving out aspects of care that you consider too menial or beneath you is not putting your best foot forward. You will be doing some scut in medicine. You are expected not to complain about it, and to, like everyone else, regard it as a necessary evil -- we all do some at various times throughout our training. The one thing you don't want to project during the interview is a sense of entitlement, or that you are somehow better than the underlings you will work with. That is a huge red flag. You are coming out of college, possibly never having held a real job before. Some of the folks who do the more "menial" things in the hospital are college educated and have been working there for decades. You can easily rub folks the wrong way. You don't get to dictate what you regard as valuable educational activities versus not - they do. And they certainly aren't looking for folks who are going to complain once they hit the wards. And even if it was a place that scutted out it's med students badly, do you think they are going to tell you that? If you must ask this kind of question, ask it to a med student not on adcom, and preferably wait until you have multiple acceptances. Just my two cents.

 

[armybound]

You can try to avoid scut as a medical student but then you'll be thrown into residency where you'll be forced to do it anyway, except you'll have no practice at it.

I think at some point as a student you realize that by doing scut work you'll end up helping the resident/intern out a lot, and they'll be freed up to do a lot more teaching, take better care of their patients, and in general be nicer to you.

Things like running for coffee doesn't happen, in my experience, unless you're already doing so and ask the rest of the team if they want any. I've run to Starbucks while on call for the team. I've run to pick up a food order for the team (on call MD was paying for my dinner, so the least I could do was actually get it. Plus it gets you off the wards for an hour or so). There's a difference between doing menial tasks to help the team out and being abused. Not all menial tasks are bad.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Agree with this. Adcoms are looking for people with "can do" attitudes who are ready to roll up their sleeves and get to work. Starting off by carving out aspects of care that you consider too menial or beneath you is not putting your best foot forward. You will be doing some scut in medicine. You are expected not to complain about it, and to, like everyone else, regard it as a necessary evil -- we all do some at various times throughout our training. The one thing you don't want to project during the interview is a sense of entitlement, or that you are somehow better than the underlings you will work with. That is a huge red flag. You are coming out of college, possibly never having held a real job before. Some of the folks who do the more "menial" things in the hospital are college educated and have been working there for decades. You can easily rub folks the wrong way. You don't get to dictate what you regard as valuable educational activities versus not - they do. And they certainly aren't looking for folks who are going to complain once they hit the wards. And even if it was a place that scutted out it's med students badly, do you think they are going to tell you that? If you must ask this kind of question, ask it to a med student not on adcom, and preferably wait until you have multiple acceptances. Just my two cents.

👍

As someone pointed out earlier, questions during interviews should 1) make you look really good, and 2) maybe give you some new info. This question makes you look lazy.

 

[mimelim]

Thanks for the info regarding questions to ask adcoms vs questions to ask students. I'll definitely keep that in mind during interviews/tours.

In regard to the last paragraph, you're implying that you were a more capable resident because of the "service" that you had to perform as a medical student on rotations, correct? So in essence you're saying that both service and education have a place in rounds and both can/will serve you well in the future?

I am more prepared for the day to day life of a resident than people who came from schools that overly protected their students. I think that it is a vital component of one's medical school education. What doesn't help is getting discharge summaries dumped on you left and right or getting coffee for people. That is just a waste of time and something to take issue with.

 

[deleted103644]

I am more prepared for the day to day life of a resident than people who came from schools that overly protected their students. I think that it is a vital component of one's medical school education. What doesn't help is getting discharge summaries dumped on you left and right or getting coffee for people. That is just a waste of time and something to take issue with.

Coffee, yes, discharge summaries (particularly for pts you have followed), no.

 

[aDOdoctor]

It would be silly to ask about "scut" work in an interview because chances are, you have absolutely no idea how to do any of that stuff anyway. It's best to master it so you can pass it to the next generation of students. Start at the bottom and work your way up, so you can appreciate every aspect of your experience. And even if someone says to get them coffee, then make it worth your while and tell them to buy you a cup too. Use every moment as an opportunity, and not as a struggle. Not only will you learn a lot, but you'll gain respect way faster in the short time you are there. (Speaking from current job experiences)