Associate jobs and salary clarity

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heybrother

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Will you travel to / interview for an associate podiatry job before a discussion of salary has occurred?

I have more to say, but I'll leave this open ended for now.

(In before: don't apply to private podiatry practices, you can't handle the truth, seriously don't, if you don't like it start your own)
 
I’m going with no, unless I’m paid to visit. Too broke to visit multiple places.
 
The answer is, if you really want to live somewhere then you'll probably have to. You aren't going to find many podiatry practices that pay for you to come out and interview. I did have one that paid for my flight and a rental car. Another that put me up at one of the Doc's houses which saved some money. I think it is completely reasonable to ask about salary/pay before flying out there. I'm sure you will offend someone but I think most groups would send you a sample contract or discuss compensation if you asked nicely and explained you can't afford to fly out without more details.
 
Will you travel to / interview for an associate podiatry job before a discussion of salary has occurred?

I have more to say, but I'll leave this open ended for now.

(In before: don't apply to private podiatry practices, you can't handle the truth, seriously don't, if you don't like it start your own)
I came out to interview for a job before discussing salary at my original private practice, but a local hospital covered the cost of it so I wasn't out anything. I don't think I'd go somewhere to interview for a private practice job again unless I already knew the practice well and knew what they were offering and it was a great opportunity for me. In reality, I have no plans of going back into private practice.
 
My private practice experiences have all just been weird. Getting a sample contract upfront has been like pulling teeth. I've literally visited people who've never provided a number (a salary, a buy-out, whatever - they don't actually know what they want to do), but continue to contact me as if I'll show up on day 1 and sign a contract then. I've had people say they want their private practice application process to be "competitive". I've been told they'll need me to follow them around for a few weeks on a small stipend until I understand their practice (this might or might not be reasonable but the way it was stated made it weird). I've been offered to buy days of their practice schedule. The schedule will be full - or no, it won't be full and you'll need to do health fairs (within the same 5 minute conversation). I've been told they're leaving and they're not leaving within a 1 day window.

Anyway, I should start writing it all down because it would make a great book - though it could be summarized as don't do private practice. I'm considering declining any interviews that don't include a cursory salary discussion before hand. Maybe a bad idea. Maybe not. I may have created my own grievance by not doing my residency in the area where I want to practice, but residency training is just terribly variable and you have to get it where you can. I think I'm also just impatient - I want to have a contract signed already.
 
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Dont believe the lies, Dont let anyone take advantage of your hard work

Know your worth and EXUDE that.

Like Tom Cruise at a Scientology Gathering
 
Dont believe the lies, Dont let anyone take advantage of your hard work

Know your worth and EXUDE that.

Like Tom Cruise at a Scientology Gathering

Lol KSP going into each recent thread and dropping knowledge bombs all over the place
 
Regarding joining a private podiatry practice:
I've decided that it takes at minimum 5 years before you are finally getting paid what you're worth (especially joining one podiatrist as an associate). Best to think of those 5 years as an extended fellowship. It's painful and sad, but that's the state of things in our profession. I'm sure there are exceptions, but they are rare.
 
And what is that "worth" that you have to burn five years that are never coming back for ?

You could ask the same thing of orthopedic surgeons when they first start out. They're not "worth" as much as they're getting paid their first year out, but they are (very well) paid because of their potential--their "worth" is their training experience, their ability to step in and take call, their ability to fill in while the other docs go on vacation.

Is our "worth" less than that? I'm not advocating that we come out getting paid $200K+ guaranteed like they do. But most of the contracts I saw when I came out searching were pitiful. I don't know how that's going to change really.

It's not just the employer's fault. There's a lot of duds out there (another unfortunate fact of our profession, given that EVERY one is forced to be a "podiatric surgeon" whether or not they have skills/talent in that area, and we are taught very little about running a clinic/practice management/etc). So I understand the "feeling out" period. Anyways, again, I don't have the solution--just an observation.

I'll put it to you this way. You're in your 3rd year of practice, bringing in $650-700K to the practice, and you're making $120-140K? Maybe $150K? May sound OK, since you only got paid $70K your first year. Still, something is wrong.

In my opinion, and the opinion of most others that I've talked to: I think an associate is "worth" about 1/3 of what they bring into the practice (33%). The rest goes to overhead and the employer for providing the place to work. Most contracts are not set up this way--they are set up with some complicated base salary/bonus structure formula that rarely ends up as good as it sounds.

I've been in practice for 7 years, so I'm finally making what I consider to be fair (have been for a couple years now)---just had to put up with a lot of B.S. for 5 years to prove my worth.

Edit: I know this doesn't really belong in this thread, given that I didn't really answer the OP's question. I think I wouldn't fly out to visit a practice before salary was discussed though---but I guess I'm also saying don't hold out for some "amazing" offer because it's probably not coming.
 
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Just want to add that today, most new podiatry graduates are coming out of school with $250-$300K in debt (especially if they have families)---SOMEBODY thinks we are worth enough to pay that off in a decent period of time.
 
some other posters in this forum have expressed that it might be better to start your own practice or buy a practice to avoid getting a small cut from another podiatrist. Obviously the list goes on about the pros and cons of having your own practice. In your guys opinion what is a reasonable price to buy a practice? I know this would vary widely. Thanks
 
Scrantoncity..... There is no sure thing when your working for someone for that long.... a pod that is making 750K in collections for an office is doing an insane!! amount of work , on avg seeing 150 pts week in week out at least ( in-network practice) the physical and mental toll is huge!... to get a third of that is absolutely not fair and unethical!, the FIXED practice overhead doesn't go up that drastically for the second guy, the majority of that money is pure profit .... its called getting shafted.... if one is willing to invest FIVE years why not invest it in yourself? You can either start from scratch or take over an office with some cashflow ... at the end of the day its really 3-5 insurances that you have to be very familiar with since that will be the bulk of your money will come from... the rest of the office stuff is BS, everyone just likes to complicate things... classic pod BS
 
Scrantoncity..... There is no sure thing when your working for someone for that long.... a pod that is making 750K in collections for an office is doing an insane!! amount of work , on avg seeing 150 pts week in week out at least ( in-network practice) the physical and mental toll is huge!... to get a third of that is absolutely not fair and unethical!, the FIXED practice overhead doesn't go up that drastically for the second guy, the majority of that money is pure profit .... its called getting shafted.... if one is willing to invest FIVE years why not invest it in yourself? You can either start from scratch or take over an office with some cashflow ... at the end of the day its really 3-5 insurances that you have to be very familiar with since that will be the bulk of your money will come from... the rest of the office stuff is BS, everyone just likes to complicate things... classic pod BS


It seems like you're mostly agreeing with me. I agree, $750K is a lot of hard work---but it's very do-able. I'm doing it now, and I have to take blood pressure medication haha. I'm saying getting a third of that is the very LEAST what an associate should get if he's collecting that much---and it's not happening for a lot of people that work in podiatry offices as associates. People are getting shafted--just go to an ACFAS meeting and listen to the stories. My whole point is, if you are worth that much and want to get paid what you're worth, don't join another podiatrist. Yeah, take the plunge and start your own office from scratch! I wish I had done that---wouldn't have wasted those 5 years. The trick is taking that risk when you're already $300K in debt from podiatry school--kinda scary, but if I had only known that the "safe" option was so much worse...

I guess my whole thing is, if you see yourself stuck in that situation, getting shafted--maybe try being patient for 5 years instead of quitting and joining another group to get shafted again (and starting your 5 years over). Or start your own thing.
 
The trick is taking that risk when you're already $300K in debt from podiatry school--kinda scary, but if I had only known that the "safe" option was so much worse...


Yes this agree with.... however the way I look at this is that the JUICE is worth the SQUEEZE ... taking on more debt to get your own thing going ( or making a smart and educated fully functioning/viable practice purchase... helping to lower your risk even more) will set you 5-7 years ahead of the pack vs. if you failing will set you back 2-3 years ... in my OPINION it would make more sense to lower your risk as much as possible by checking off all the boxes and studying all parameters involved in private practice, having an honest discussion with yourself weighing all the pros vs cons pertaining to your specific situation, and then take the plunge.... with the recent changes in medicare podiatry WON BIG, we actually got a double digit raise in reimbursement for ex, and there is less documentation requirements on the horizon ( helping with burnout).... when you look at the last 20 years and what people have been complaining about... the next 10 years appear to be a great time to take the plunge all things considered... the sky is not falling, its not even intact.... its actually very bright and beautiful
 
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get a hospital job. get paid more than you are worth day 1. boom end of story.
 
get a hospital job. get paid more than you are worth day 1. boom end of story.

Of course these jobs aren’t advertised. Are hospital recruiters the best to talk to. How do you suggest a graduating resident opens these doors? Thanks
 
Of course these jobs aren’t advertised. Are hospital recruiters the best to talk to. How do you suggest a graduating resident opens these doors? Thanks

This reflects my personal experience with hospitals:

Unless the position is actively being recruited for now, it's probably too late if you want a hospital job immediately after graduation from residency. While I was a resident, I reach out directly to a hospital that didn't have a podiatrist. They took interest but the layers of bureaucracy to get through (funding approval, medical school approval, etc...) made the position available 1 year after I initially reached out. As another example, I reached out to a different hospital while I was in my first associate position and they said nothing was available. Ten months later they called me back offering an interview.

I would reach out directly to the recruiters. Every conversation has ultimately involved the CEO of the hospital so if you're getting no where with the recruiter, see if you can get a hold of the CEO.
 
I would reach out directly to the recruiters. Every conversation has ultimately involved the CEO of the hospital so if you're getting no where with the recruiter, see if you can get a hold of the CEO.

I would agree with pretty much everything toe_tickler said. Recruiters are a great first contact. Easy to get their info, easy to talk to, they want to be helpful, etc. But ultimately they can't create positions that do not exist within the system. If the Hospital or Health Network you are interested in already has podiatrists at the facility you are looking at, you don't need to bug the CEO. They are constantly evaluating service line profitabliity and the need to expand. Those facilities will hire podiatrists when they are ready to hire podiatrists and the recruiter will probably reach back out to you at that time. If you are looking at a facility that doesn't currently have podiatry (even if another hospital within the same company/network does), you really need to discuss possibilities with administration. Find a way to get in touch with the CEO. Can be easier and less daunting than most people think.

I would do anything I could to avoid working for another podiatrist. No other medical specialty takes advantage of new docs out of residency quite like podiatrists. And that's mostly because every other specialty has a lot more options in terms of employment set ups/opportunities. It doesn't happen to orthos who join small ortho groups, it doesn't happen to OBGYNs who join private practices or small groups, it doesn't happen to family medicine or pediatricians, at least not near to the extent that it happens with podiatry.
 
As always dtrack is right. System has pods? They will hire when ready. But guess what you won't get it because they will go to the existing pods and ask then first for recommendations. If the system doesn't have pods? Get lucky . Right spot at right time. And it's really not that hard to talk to CEOs, especially rural. Gigantic system sure. But even those have local representative.

As mentioned before, get lucky. I have talked multiple times on here about how it's how you sell yourself not your skills when it comes to a hospital. Know your role . My job here is to do surgery, cover ER, order imaging and labs. Me doing office visits is not paying my salary. I am now 10 months into my job (2nd one since residency. First one in a MSG that had another pod that the job didn't get advertised...). I do clinic 3 days a week, 1 allotted for surgery. See patients 9 to 4 or so. I go home multiple times a day about a 30 second drive. In total I maybe work 25 hours a week. I have had 1 inpatient since I have been here. Get 100 percent of ER. I do maybe 5-7 surgery a month. 6 to 9 patients a day. And I am sure I am profitable to them already. I get paid a salary plus bonus. I will probably never hit my bonus, but I expect to get a raise when contract is up in 2 more years.
 
As always dtrack is right. System has pods? They will hire when ready. But guess what you won't get it because they will go to the existing pods and ask then first for recommendations. If the system doesn't have pods? Get lucky . Right spot at right time. And it's really not that hard to talk to CEOs, especially rural. Gigantic system sure. But even those have local representative.

As mentioned before, get lucky. I have talked multiple times on here about how it's how you sell yourself not your skills when it comes to a hospital. Know your role . My job here is to do surgery, cover ER, order imaging and labs. Me doing office visits is not paying my salary. I am now 10 months into my job (2nd one since residency. First one in a MSG that had another pod that the job didn't get advertised...). I do clinic 3 days a week, 1 allotted for surgery. See patients 9 to 4 or so. I go home multiple times a day about a 30 second drive. In total I maybe work 25 hours a week. I have had 1 inpatient since I have been here. Get 100 percent of ER. I do maybe 5-7 surgery a month. 6 to 9 patients a day. And I am sure I am profitable to them already. I get paid a salary plus bonus. I will probably never hit my bonus, but I expect to get a raise when contract is up in 2 more years.

Yeah, "Get lucky"--but it sounds like you also have to be persistent to find jobs like this...I've never had luck with it sadly. My email box has a ton of messages from physician recruiters at hospitals saying "We are not looking for a podiatrist, thank you." Maybe if I had tried to talk to CEO's it would have been different, though. So persistence and tenacity to get these types of jobs is key, sounds like.

As I said before--I like where I'm at now (in private practice), even though I'm having to see tons of patients everyday to get here. I joined someone that is going to retire soon so that's my light at the end of the tunnel...

We probably all have a different vision in our heads as to what the "ideal" podiatry job is--just really painful when you feel like you're not there yet, like my first 5 years out were. I hate that drtrack22 is right about our docs in our profession screwing each other over. If it helps, remember there's always someone getting screwed more than you haha.
 
It is a lot of persistence. I heard no from probably 50 hospitals first. And I should clarify that not everyone would consider my job lucky. I am never going to be busy enough to get a consulting gig. I am never going to be busy enough to get enough cases for research. I am never going to be busy enough to make 400k plus, etc.
 
As always dtrack is right. System has pods? They will hire when ready. But guess what you won't get it because they will go to the existing pods and ask then first for recommendations. If the system doesn't have pods? Get lucky . Right spot at right time. And it's really not that hard to talk to CEOs, especially rural. Gigantic system sure. But even those have local representative.

As mentioned before, get lucky. I have talked multiple times on here about how it's how you sell yourself not your skills when it comes to a hospital. Know your role . My job here is to do surgery, cover ER, order imaging and labs. Me doing office visits is not paying my salary. I am now 10 months into my job (2nd one since residency. First one in a MSG that had another pod that the job didn't get advertised...). I do clinic 3 days a week, 1 allotted for surgery. See patients 9 to 4 or so. I go home multiple times a day about a 30 second drive. In total I maybe work 25 hours a week. I have had 1 inpatient since I have been here. Get 100 percent of ER. I do maybe 5-7 surgery a month. 6 to 9 patients a day. And I am sure I am profitable to them already. I get paid a salary plus bonus. I will probably never hit my bonus, but I expect to get a raise when contract is up in 2 more years.

You’re working 25 hours a week and seeing 6-9 patients daily. I don’t know what you’re being paid, but I can’t imagine how profitable that can realistically be for the hospital. Every hospital contract I’ve reviewed also has an RVU “expectation”. I realize you generate money by referring for advanced imaging, etc., but these hospital CEOs watch employed doctors like a hawk. In addition to your salary, they are paying your malpractice,health and other perks.

You are honest enough to state that you likely will not hit your bonus. If that’s the case, why would your employer give you a raise at contract renewal? Not sure I understand that issue. If you had a doctor you employed who never hit the bonus, what would be the logical reason to give a raise?

It’s been my experience in these scenarios that hospitals don’t hand out money and simply give raises. In their minds, hitting your bonus and producing more RVUs is the way you make more money. They want you to earn it.
 
I imagine I will get pretty close to threshold by the end of contract. When I say raise, I mainly mean cost of living/inflation. Not like I am walking in asking for 50k more. Also, I am in a rural situation. It's just different out here. There aren't that many people to take care of. The analgua I use is in a big city you catch as many fish as you can in the ocean. Out here I am just fishing in a bucket. Catch what's there. Regardless, I am trending in the right direction. Also, think about from PR POV. Community will be mad that can't keep doctors and will blame hospital. And other doctors, especially specialists will never come if they find out last person didn't last because not busy enough. Why would they take that risk. They just spent millions of dollars redoing the hospital, so they need people to use it and have a long term plan that I am a part of. Again, not for everyone. And when I start doing some outreach I bet I can get to 11-15 pretty consistent.
 
I imagine I will get pretty close to threshold by the end of contract. When I say raise, I mainly mean cost of living/inflation. Not like I am walking in asking for 50k more. Also, I am in a rural situation. It's just different out here. There aren't that many people to take care of. The analgua I use is in a big city you catch as many fish as you can in the ocean. Out here I am just fishing in a bucket. Catch what's there. Regardless, I am trending in the right direction. Also, think about from PR POV. Community will be mad that can't keep doctors and will blame hospital. And other doctors, especially specialists will never come if they find out last person didn't last because not busy enough. Why would they take that risk. They just spent millions of dollars redoing the hospital, so they need people to use it and have a long term plan that I am a part of. Again, not for everyone. And when I start doing some outreach I bet I can get to 11-15 pretty consistent.

I understand your point, but eventually the pencil pushers are going to wonder if they need a full time podiatrist. It sounds as if they can easily get by with a part time doctor at the present time. I also understand it would be difficult for them to hire someone and not commit to full time. But with an administration, it will eventually be all about the bottom line. If you aren’t profitable for them, some pencil pusher will eliminate the position.

On a side note, aren’t you bored out of your mind seeing 6-9 patients daily? I’m pretty much phased out of clinical practice but I treated about 6 patients an hour!! There has to be a way for you to get much busier for your mental health, financial health and to keep up with your skills. This is a great opportunity for YOU to be the pioneer and create a great department. Forget about that 30 second ride home several times a day. Pound the pavement and make connections to get your schedule filled. You’re too young and well trained to not be busy.
 
Those facilities will hire podiatrists when they are ready to hire podiatrists and the recruiter will probably reach back out to you at that time. If you are looking at a facility that doesn't currently have podiatry (even if another hospital within the same company/network does), you really need to discuss possibilities with administration. Find a way to get in touch with the CEO. Can be easier and less daunting than most people think.

System has pods? They will hire when ready. But guess what you won't get it because they will go to the existing pods and ask then first for recommendations. If the system doesn't have pods? Get lucky . Right spot at right time. And it's really not that hard to talk to CEOs, especially rural. Gigantic system sure.


I completely 110% agree to do your best to not work with a podiatrist..... 1/10 will be legitimate and try not to screw you in any state you end up in BTW not just metro/saturated area, however i would like to ask WHY after all that time, hard work, and MONEY would you leave your work/earning power FATE and go be an EMPLOYEE at a place that will constantly evaluate you, question you, raise your quotas, not the most greatest job security ( i.e. hospital shuts down/gets bought out), etc... on TOP of all this these jobs are not even that readily available and as stated above you have to petition and grovel to make a position like this happen, why?

Through podiatry you have the ability to be a business owner and take even more control in your hands ( I will admit you never have full control and security i.e. insurances, leases, but at least you have ways of dealing with these issues vs. a hospital JOB).... the reason why all these job issues even exist in the first place is that the overwhelming amount of practicing pods are in private practice just like dentistry for ex ( similar associate job issues arise within that profession), most own their own business and react to the market around them in terms of hiring.... I will stand by what i said earlier, after all that time, effort, and money take fate in your own hands and when you get the opportunity and fully understand all that it entails, own your OWN practice as soon as possible, only then you will see all the benefits that comes with your degree... I am aware that PP is not for everyone but if you ever want to see those big numbers you will have to go down that route, for the great majority of pods no other way to get them via any other route in this profession.
 
I understand your point, but eventually the pencil pushers are going to wonder if they need a full time podiatrist. It sounds as if they can easily get by with a part time doctor at the present time. I also understand it would be difficult for them to hire someone and not commit to full time. But with an administration, it will eventually be all about the bottom line. If you aren’t profitable for them, some pencil pusher will eliminate the position.

On a side note, aren’t you bored out of your mind seeing 6-9 patients daily? I’m pretty much phased out of clinical practice but I treated about 6 patients an hour!! There has to be a way for you to get much busier for your mental health, financial health and to keep up with your skills. This is a great opportunity for YOU to be the pioneer and create a great department. Forget about that 30 second ride home several times a day. Pound the pavement and make connections to get your schedule filled. You’re too young and well trained to not be busy.


Lol I don't think you understand how small of an area it is....pounding the pavement took like 1 day. I can only swing by and see them so many times. Fortunately we are hiring a few new PCP and that will help with patient volume.
 
I understand your point, but eventually the pencil pushers are going to wonder if they need a full time podiatrist. It sounds as if they can easily get by with a part time doctor at the present time. I also understand it would be difficult for them to hire someone and not commit to full time. But with an administration, it will eventually be all about the bottom line. If you aren’t profitable for them, some pencil pusher will eliminate the position.

On a side note, aren’t you bored out of your mind seeing 6-9 patients daily? I’m pretty much phased out of clinical practice but I treated about 6 patients an hour!! There has to be a way for you to get much busier for your mental health, financial health and to keep up with your skills. This is a great opportunity for YOU to be the pioneer and create a great department. Forget about that 30 second ride home several times a day. Pound the pavement and make connections to get your schedule filled. You’re too young and well trained to not be busy.

And no I don't get bored. I have a side business I am working on that is labor intensive. And I didn't come out here to be super busy. I came out here to live life and have fun. It just so happens that I get to make good enough money while doing so. No traffic, no people, no stress. Just beautiful mountains and a ton of deer and antelope to look at .
 
I joined someone that is going to retire soon so that's my light at the end of the tunnel...

Do you already have some form of contractual agreement regarding buyout when the old guy decides to retire? Timeline?
I've seen a few owners that start to slow down & then figure out that things aren't that bad......remaining a silent owner that still gets majority percent of collections.

I've been told by several DDS practice purchaser's that it's better to just come in, have brief transition & then have the previous owner leave within a few months. My point is that "things change". It sounds like things have improved for you over the 5 year period but I would still consider opening your own practice if you have the desire.
 
I've been told by several DDS practice purchaser's that it's better to just come in, have brief transition & then have the previous owner leave within a few months. My point is that "things change". It sounds like things have improved for you over the 5 year period but I would still consider opening your own practice if you have the desire.

This is SOLID advice .... 6 -8 weeks is more than enough for you to be introduced to majority of recurring patients and get comfortable with the day to day aspects of running the office .... anything else you just pick up along the way
 
Lol I don't think you understand how small of an area it is....pounding the pavement took like 1 day. I can only swing by and see them so many times. Fortunately we are hiring a few new PCP and that will help with patient volume.

Got it. Please tell Floyd the barber and sheriff Andy I said hello.

(You may actually be too young to understand my comment).
 
Lol, no I get it. It's just a different mentality. That's what is great about this world, a place for everyone. It's not right or wrong it's just different. The idea of living in a suburb driving an hour or 2 to work or good forbid taking the subway sounds like torture to me. Paying 750k for a house worth 250k out here, staring at strip mall after strip mall...sounds like torture to me. Between Amazon, meal kits like purple carrot or plated, it's not so isolated out here. That Google machine has really changed things. Is it forever? I don't know, but i always tell people the first few years out write your plans in pencil. Things change. Is a pencil pusher going to cancel my in 3 years? Maybe, but my student loans will be paid off (thanks to 100k from my hospital), 2 2017 reliable for 20 years cars paid off, my 401k 457b HSA and Roth irax2 maxed out for 5 years, and no credit card debt. But then I have a lot more options open to me and a lot less stress. Obviously I am not in private practice but having all that "power" and "control" sounds really stressful and constrictive. You may want to get out but you have 1 million loan on building, all these employees to worry about, another loan with the bank, your mortgage, paying 30k plus a year for childcare, nothing in retirement since reinvesting in business, credit card debt from focusing on business etc etc etc. And guess what? All that doc wishes is that he could be sitting on top of a mountain looking into the forest below wishing life was as peaceful back home as it is here. It's just a different generation.

I was reading a blog today that talked about for your generation ( I say that with love) a car was freedom. I today with Uber and all this other stuff ( lol don't get wrong there isn't an Uber here for hundreds of miles...) Not having a car (and the payments upkeep etc) is freedom.
 
Hijacking this thread...I hope everyone on here is reading white coat investor. The mantra of living like a resident for 2 to 5 years etc will set you up for success in life. It's one thing for a specialist making 400k year 1 to focus on knocking out loans in 3 years, renting a house etc. Then in year 4 or so the have no debt and an extra 100k a year for non tax advantaged accounts to do what they want to with, whether real estate, taxable accounts or lol bitcoin. Even the pediatrician or hospital employed podiatrist can do this. But somebody in private practice is not doing that. First they don't have the tax protected accounts . They don't have the loan reimbursement. They don't have the vacation. They don't have the income. And they sure don't have any of that if starting their own practice. You are delaying all that for what? Podiatry already has an uncertain future. Set yourself up to walk away the minute you need to, not double down by starting your own place. Don't look at this from the perspective of what it may have been like for you but instead from someone fresh out. What makes you think that investing heavily into this current podiatry model is a good long term model? Seriously?

If I were in PP I would forget about living where you want to and instead go where you need to where someone will pay you for your work. You don't want partnership you don't want responsibility etc. You just want them to pay you. I realize easier said than done. It's just too easy of a model for the current practice owners. There is always a sucker. All these people born in for example new York City, lived there their whole lives who did residency there and want to keep living there etc. Of course this cycle is going to keep repeating. I know a lot of people doing really well in this profession. Guess where they were raised and went to school? Not NYC, Philly, Miami, Chicago, Boston etc.
 
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Lol, no I get it. It's just a different mentality. That's what is great about this world, a place for everyone. It's not right or wrong it's just different. The idea of living in a suburb driving an hour or 2 to work or good forbid taking the subway sounds like torture to me. Paying 750k for a house worth 250k out here, staring at strip mall after strip mall...sounds like torture to me. Between Amazon, meal kits like purple carrot or plated, it's not so isolated out here. That Google machine has really changed things. Is it forever? I don't know, but i always tell people the first few years out write your plans in pencil. Things change. Is a pencil pusher going to cancel my in 3 years? Maybe, but my student loans will be paid off (thanks to 100k from my hospital), 2 2017 reliable for 20 years cars paid off, my 401k 457b HSA and Roth irax2 maxed out for 5 years, and no credit card debt. But then I have a lot more options open to me and a lot less stress. Obviously I am not in private practice but having all that "power" and "control" sounds really stressful and constrictive. You may want to get out but you have 1 million loan on building, all these employees to worry about, another loan with the bank, your mortgage, paying 30k plus a year for childcare, nothing in retirement since reinvesting in business, credit card debt from focusing on business etc etc etc. And guess what? All that doc wishes is that he could be sitting on top of a mountain looking into the forest below wishing life was as peaceful back home as it is here. It's just a different generation.

I was reading a blog today that talked about for your generation ( I say that with love) a car was freedom. I today with Uber and all this other stuff ( lol don't get wrong there isn't an Uber here for hundreds of miles...) Not having a car (and the payments upkeep etc) is freedom.


Believe me, I get it. I started with a small practice from scratch and it grew into a monster. After many years I had partners, some who where great and others who I’d like to challenge to an MMA match. With partners you no longer have complete control. My goal was to have one BIG ASS state of the art practice and buliding. But I was outvoted and they wanted to keep opening satellites. More overhead and smaller offices. I was traveling all over the world to offices, wound care centers, hospitals and surgery centers. I covered on-call and ER at several hospitals. It was brutal and it became toxic.

I always admired NatCh on this site who did low volume but made a nice living and had a great lifestyle. I did make changes and I’m very happy. I do live in an expensive area with crazy high taxes. But my kids are local so I’m not about to relocate. I have a very nice home, no mortgage and max out my IRA annually.

Between several offices, many associates and several partners and an extremely busy schedule I understand stress. So I paid my dues and made major changes and it’s great.

It’s not always about the money. If you are in the middle of Alaska and enjoy the location, scenery, wildlife and lifestyle, you’re WAY ahead of 95% of your peers.

Is your igloo heated?
 
Do you already have some form of contractual agreement regarding buyout when the old guy decides to retire? Timeline?
I've seen a few owners that start to slow down & then figure out that things aren't that bad......remaining a silent owner that still gets majority percent of collections.

I've been told by several DDS practice purchaser's that it's better to just come in, have brief transition & then have the previous owner leave within a few months. My point is that "things change". It sounds like things have improved for you over the 5 year period but I would still consider opening your own practice if you have the desire.

No, I only have an "approximate" timeline, and certainly nothing on paper yet---and yes, that does worry me. That's pretty much my only concern at this point, but it's a big one. Like you said, I would love to consider opening my own practice where I'm at (or reasonably close-by), but that pesky non-compete agreement that we always sign when we should have fought it (or at least tried to reduce it) is always there...

So right now at least I'm just chugging away until that time draws nearer, and we'll have the conversation again. There are certainly some benefits of being an employee--not sure they outweigh the benefits of ownership--but for now I'm enjoying them.
 
I've been keeping up with this thread . For those in practice or for those that have bought a practice, what is a reasonable price for a practice assuming you arent buying the building as continued lease payments need to be made? Thanks.
 
what is a reasonable price for a practice assuming you arent buying the building as continued lease payments need to be made?

Good luck on getting an answer to this. There are so many variables that it's basically impossible to answer. Plus, I would consider assets plus a very tiny amount of goodwill reasonable while a 60 year old retiring podiatrist would not.
 
Good luck on getting an answer to this. There are so many variables that it's basically impossible to answer. Plus, I would consider assets plus a very tiny amount of goodwill reasonable while a 60 year old retiring podiatrist would not.

Look around. Not many DPMs retiring at 60. There is so much involved with purchasing a practice. If there is a percentage of income from capitated programs and you lose those capitations to another provider, you can literally lose a chunk of income in one day. If the doctor services outside facilities and they decide not to use you, that’s more lost income.

Some accountants are now utilizing a formula that is based on a percentage of RETAINED patients and income after a defined period of time.
 
Not many DPMs retiring at 60.

I mean the age was arbitrayr...but...Is that because they thought selling their practice was how they were going to fund their retirement?

There are high income professionals who are now retiring in their late 40's so not having the income to do so over the course of a 30 year career is not a good excuse for a 60 year old DPM.
 
I mean the age was arbitrayr...but...Is that because they thought selling their practice was how they were going to fund their retirement?

There are high income professionals who are now retiring in their late 40's so not having the income to do so over the course of a 30 year career is not a good excuse for a 60 year old DPM.


Sorry, I disagree. Realistically most docs or other professions weren’t making big money for many of those years. There are loans to repay. Mortgages to pay, homes to furnish, kids to raise, family vacations, car payments, weddings or other celebrations, college tuition, etc., etc. It’s not as simple as you may believe to put enough money away to also live a very nice lifestyle for 25,30 or more years. Livin’ large ain’t cheap.

Let me add that it’s not always that someone doesn’t have enough put away. At 50, 60, 70, etc., if you are healthy and making a good amount of money, it’s hard to just walk away from that annual amount. You also need to consider that many personalities simply don’t want to retire at a young age.

It’s not always that someone doesn’t have enough saved. There are a lot of other factors involved.
 
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Livin’ large ain’t cheap.

That is a very correct statement, however it is ultimately on the individual.... if a podiatrist ( or any other high earning professional) lives BELOW his/her means and invests the remainder of their money in investments that produce INCOME, barring major life/health events, it is very possible to retire/semiretire in their late 40s/50s ... there is no doubt about that , ultimately its on that person to either reap those benefits or deal with the consequences of those earlier actions.... the value of a dollar early on in ones career is almost "priceless" when you consider its noninflationary and compounding value, it so important and unfortunately it doesn't get the attention it deserves
 
most docs or other professions weren’t making big money for many of those years.

Wait, so reimbursements have been improving and overhead has been going down? Have we been lied to by every doc practicing in the 90’s who said they could see less patients and make the same amount of money as they are today?

It’s not as simple as you may believe to put enough money away to also live a very nice lifestyle for 25,30 or more years

Sure but nobody forced them to live that way. So my point still stands. If docs today can be financially independent and retire in their late 40’s, then a podiatrist retiring at 60 today is reasonable.

Again, none of this matters at all because my original point was just retiring docs tend to overvalue their practice. Everyone, please feel free to insert 70 instead of 60 in my first post if it makes you feel better...
 
I've been keeping up with this thread . For those in practice or for those that have bought a practice, what is a reasonable price for a practice assuming you arent buying the building as continued lease payments need to be made? Thanks.


Great question, like dtrack said its hard to answer but i will give my take on it based on my limited experience ....

After buying two offices,I learned that you have to look at a practice through a multifactorial lens when buying ... I have to start by saying that your patients will be coming to see YOU, so you have to be comfortable in this setting and confident with your abilities since you will be SELLING yourself to patients and they have to be convinced to continue coming and refer others ...... it comes down to 1. revenue numbers, 2. population area/pod saturation, 3. payer mix (insurances in the population you want to work with, at the end of the day it will come down to 3-5 that you will make the majority of your money on), 4. fixed expenses ( ext. imp and how much they will grow over time) , and 5.Employees required to run office and any that will transition.

The revenue of the office, the population/area, and the overheard/FIXED expenses ( which are the bare minimum reoccurring expenses to run the office i.e. rent, payroll, utilities/office ins, malpractice ins, supply budget, advertising budget.. there will also be VARIABLE expenses but you will incur because they are producing money for you) are in my opinion what makes the VALUE of the practice. The payer/insurance mix and the transition of longtime/short time employees (can make your life easy or difficult) are in my opinion what makes up the RISK of the practice.

I start with looking at the price that is being asked and the true NET income that can be made, I ask my self how long would it take for me to get back my initial investment? I look for 12-18 months... and that is how i would do a baseline determination if the price is within reason. Next based on the characteristics that were mentioned above I would add or subtract from that price to come up with a final number.

There are other things to take into consideration that can affect price that hold value such as will the current doc stay on to introduce you to patients, helping decrease pt attrition ( there is value in that), are certain key staff members willing to stay on, as that will allow for ease in workflow and transition with
patients (there is GREAT value in that... there is no doubt that longevity/stability in staff will lead to success of a practice), the length of the lease or renewal option/can the real estate be purchased, does the office not provide services that you can such as DME or other procedures that you can offer to patients to increase the revenue and profit, can you take the office to the next level with a solid marketing strategy (marketing is a real must nowadays with how ubiquitous the internet usage is by ALL age/race populations now and it will eventually pay for itself, paper marketing has its place also in select areas), are there other ways to make money from the practice besides office pts, ie nursing/home facilities, rent from other specialists ( always appreciate MULTIPLE streams of income as it reduces RISK), are there retiring pods in the area that will shutdown their office (its very difficult to find someone to buy a practice from you, so keep in mind that you are buying a revenue stream that you will capitalize on and don't count of selling your office down the line).

Hope this gives you a starting ground .... but first and foremost is to localize an area of interest, analyze the main insurances in that area, and get credentialed with them ( or see if you even can as certain payers have a CLOSED panel and that will unfortunately lock you out of an area preventing you from entering that market until you can get on the plan).
 
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but first and foremost is to localize an area of interest, analyze the main insurances in that area, and get credentialed with them ( or see if you even can as certain payers have a CLOSED panel and that will unfortunately lock you out of an area preventing you from entering that market until you can get on the plan).

Check your state for the presence of an AWP law. "Any Willing Provider" laws are state specific and require health insurance carriers to allow health care providers to become members of the carriers network of providers if certain conditions are met.
 
So question...when you are buying a practice from talking to some attendings at my program --- you basically are paying for just the hard goods right? Like if Im buying someone out, basically office space/printers/chairs/tvs, but you aren't/shouldn't be paying for charts?

is this a fair statement or way to approach buying a practice?
 
Like if Im buying someone out, basically office space/printers/chairs/tvs, but you aren't/shouldn't be paying for charts?

is this a fair statement or way to approach buying a practice?

That's how you should approach it as the person buying. Charts today are pretty worthless. But the current owner will not see it that way. Ultimately you will pay some amount of goodwill (ie charts, current referral sources) if you want to get a deal done. And I think that is reasonable. Just not 80-100% of gross collections which is what I've seen 2-3 different guys ask for...
 
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