Associate -vs- Purchasing Private Practice

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JamieMac

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Does anyone here have any comments regarding working for a practice as an associate, buying a practice outright, or buying into a group? I am sure there are advantages and disadvantages to both, and was wondering if someone could shed some light on what they are finding. What are those of you coming close to graduating thinking about doing, and why?

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There are a lot of choices out of dental school. I know those who started offices from scratch, bought others, joined a group and associated. No one plan fits everyone. I was an associate for 3 years. I didn't know what I wanted. I thought I wanted as much money as possible before I graduated b/c I had none. Now I've learned I want to do high quality patient centered dentistry. I have my own office that allows me this. Money is still a big issue for me but I know if I do things my way with my personality, patients want it. I'm not a salesmen or shady, don't accept ppos.

Theres no one answer for everyone. You have to figure it out on your own. You can make 1 million/year in your first year out like some I know or you can 30k like me. But 5 years later and I'm doing what I want and making great money. Everybody is different. If you don't know what you want then don't make any permanent plans.
 
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Any more insight on this? Do you think it's a good idea to start as an associate (or on salary at a corporate office) to get some money and get an idea of how you'd like to prioritize your practice and THEN start your own or buy into a group? Or do you not want to waste any time?

Also, could anyone address the issue of women dentists, especially those who want kids: is it possible to run your own practice and take time off here and there, or would you lose patients? Are dentist moms forced to buy into a practice or be an associate? I don't imagine patients would like periods of 3 months where they can't get any work done or have to visit a strange dentist.....
 
I'mFillingFine said:
Any more insight on this? Do you think it's a good idea to start as an associate (or on salary at a corporate office) to get some money and get an idea of how you'd like to prioritize your practice and THEN start your own or buy into a group? Or do you not want to waste any time?

Also, could anyone address the issue of women dentists, especially those who want kids: is it possible to run your own practice and take time off here and there, or would you lose patients? Are dentist moms forced to buy into a practice or be an associate? I don't imagine patients would like periods of 3 months where they can't get any work done or have to visit a strange dentist.....

I would suggest working as an associate once you graduate from dental school so that way you can get a feel for "dentistry in the real world". Once you get an insider's view on the clinic you are working for, you can decide if you agree with the way it is run . Make sure you REALLY know your partners if you want to buy into a group because it's like a marriage contract.

Ideally, if you want to run a solo practice, you should be on the lookout for retiring dentists who already have a steady clientele and are selling their practices, that way you don't have to start off from scratch. In fact, from what I have inferred through my own observations and those of the colleagues I keep in touch with , this trend is on the rise.

I've only worked as an associate for under a year. It can be frustrating when you have some notions in mind on how YOU want to run a practice but since you are considered an employee, you have to conform to the owner's rules. In any case, fortunately for me, my boss is a very decent man. In fact, he is one of the most decent individuals I have met in this profession. I feel blessed to work for him. :luck:

My boss and I were actually discussing my ambitions today. He put me right on the spot and I must admit, that I am not 100% sure of where I am headed. For the time being, I enjoy working as an associate and would continue doing so if I had kids because of the flexibility it entails . If I don't get married or have kids within the next few years, I never thought I would say this, but I may just own my own practice or if I am lucky, become a partner/co-owner with one of my friends.

Once you have kids, your number one job is to be a mommy and you should spend as much time as possible raising them. I'm still traditional in that sense because that's the way I was raised. If you can afford to work less, than do so. Your kids are only kids for so many years...
 
Smilemaker100 said:
I've only worked as an associate for under a year. It can be frustrating when you have some notions in mind on how YOU want to run a practice but since you are considered an employee, you have to conform to the owner's rules. In any case, fortunately for me, my boss is a very decent man. In fact, he is one of the most decent individuals I have met in this profession. I feel blessed to work for him. :luck:

Agreed. I am working as an associate too for almost 1 year now. If I was to stay in GP, I would be looking for a practice to buy. I have ideas on how I want to practice and it is definitely not in line with either boss I work for. I think being an associate for a while was good for me because it has definitely made me realize what it's like to be an employee and how I want to handle things when I am the owner. How long that while will be for you is up to you, but if your ultimate goal is to own a practice, you have to jump in and buy one at some point.

Being an associate for some time, even if it is 6 months, will give you a chance to see what's out there and build your speed. Otherwise, if you plan to own from day 1, you better start reading up on practice management because there is a lot more to running a successful practice than doing crowns with nice margins.
 
My take on things from both the associate side and now from the partner side. First off as mentioned above, if you want to go in by yourself, buy out a retiring dentist, this way you'll atleast start off with not only some infastructure(chairs, x-ray units, instruments), but also some patients to work on too. Starting a practice from scratch will require ALOT more effort to get some bodies in the chair to work on, and hence it will take a bit longer to really start making some solid private practice $$. And while you buying a practice will cause some of the existing patient base to leave, you'll still retain a good number of patients to work on(on average between 1/2 to 2/3rds of patients will stay with you).

Okay, my views/experiences as an associate vs. a partner. My 1st associateship, the best way to describe it was an 8:30 to 5:30 job. Yes had had full autonomy over patient treatment, but I had very little(if any) input into office descisions. The nice part was come 5:30, I was out the door and didn't have any worries about the business side of things, and I received a very nice paycheck each week too, not partnership $$, byt atleast a good as what the ADA says an "average" dentist makes.

My 2nd associateship, and the practice that I'm now a partner in, was a bit different. While I was an associate, my (now) partner did put alot of my opinions into how the practice was run. I was involved in hiring/firing decisions, equipment/materials choices and general everyday business decisions. I still made a very nice amount of $$ (more than my 1st associateship, but wasn't getting a piece of the very lucrative hygiene profit pie that adds alot of the partners income. Most of the time though, come 5PM, I'd be out thte door with little, if any real business worries.

Now as a partner, yes I do get a chunk of the hygiene profit 👍 , but the business role is alot more. I'll typically be spend an average of 4 to 5 hours a week doing business administration (things like looking over rates for health insurance for my employees, looking at retirement benefit packages for my employees, looking at what the overhead is running at, looking at the accounts receiveable, looking at the quarterly tax numbers, etc) Granted alot of this is just reviewing reports by the accountant, insurance salesman, and financial planner, but it still takes time and effects the practice. Fir example, health insurance, which we provide to our fulltime employees, we just received our rate quotes for our next years plan (our plan goes July 1 - June 30), and our rates for our current plan are set to go up 13% next year, which for our 10 employees and family coverage for me and my partners family has us writing a check each month for almost $7,000 😱 Thsi doesn't even get into the "boss" things I get to do from time to time when one employee has a spat with another 🙄

Being the owner does have benefits, but added responsibilty (and hours) come with it.
 
dr jeff, great write up. I do have one question, I've heard all kinds of numbers on how much a general dentist makes. Since you have been working now for a little while, could you possibly give me numbers for a dentist who worked for a practice? One dentist told me that you would probably make 500 bucks a day starting...does that sound about right?
 
Dental916 said:
dr jeff, great write up. I do have one question, I've heard all kinds of numbers on how much a general dentist makes. Since you have been working now for a little while, could you possibly give me numbers for a dentist who worked for a practice? One dentist told me that you would probably make 500 bucks a day starting...does that sound about right?

I'm not doing this to purposely be vague, but depending on what area of the country you're practing in, and the type of practice you're working in, $500 a day to start may be high, low, or just about right. I know where I practice, that number would be just about correct. I've heard as high as $750-$800 a day to start in a General Practice ans as low as $300 a day. Different areas, different situations, different earnings.

Oh yes and another fun owner situation, one I'm dealing with right now. What to do when you're receptionist, who was scheculed to go out on maternity leave at the end of April, had an emergency c-section early yesterday morning (healthy baby girl + mom 👍 ), but the replacement that my partner and I we're going to hire(new full time hire, not a temporary) isn't/can't start for 2 weeks 😕 Just the joys of being an owner!
 
DrJeff said:
I'm not doing this to purposely be vague, but depending on what area of the country you're practing in, and the type of practice you're working in, $500 a day to start may be high, low, or just about right. I know where I practice, that number would be just about correct. I've heard as high as $750-$800 a day to start in a General Practice ans as low as $300 a day. Different areas, different situations, different earnings.

Oh yes and another fun owner situation, one I'm dealing with right now. What to do when you're receptionist, who was scheculed to go out on maternity leave at the end of April, had an emergency c-section early yesterday morning (healthy baby girl + mom 👍 ), but the replacement that my partner and I we're going to hire(new full time hire, not a temporary) isn't/can't start for 2 weeks 😕 Just the joys of being an owner!


I have a follow-up question to business management ideas. Have you and your partner ever though about dropping health and retirement coverage and paying a larger salary? Or is this impossible to do because you could not retain quality employees? I was thinking maybe you could control your variable liabilities that what and make them more predictable because insurance costs go up every year. The insurance cost might could be offset with a flex mediical spending account for the employees as well. I know I have seen bigger companies trying to go this way to curtain the never ending rise of insurance costs. Just curious if any practicing dentists have ever tried not to not offer the standard benefits and still be able to get decent employees who would want a larger salary. Maybe she is under her husband's insurance plan, etc. Thanks,
 
DrJeff said:
My take on things from both the associate side and now from the partner side. First off as mentioned above, if you want to go in by yourself, buy out a retiring dentist, this way you'll atleast start off with not only some infastructure(chairs, x-ray units, instruments), but also some patients to work on too. Starting a practice from scratch will require ALOT more effort to get some bodies in the chair to work on, and hence it will take a bit longer to really start making some solid private practice $$. And while you buying a practice will cause some of the existing patient base to leave, you'll still retain a good number of patients to work on(on average between 1/2 to 2/3rds of patients will stay with you).

Okay, my views/experiences as an associate vs. a partner. My 1st associateship, the best way to describe it was an 8:30 to 5:30 job. Yes had had full autonomy over patient treatment, but I had very little(if any) input into office descisions. The nice part was come 5:30, I was out the door and didn't have any worries about the business side of things, and I received a very nice paycheck each week too, not partnership $$, byt atleast a good as what the ADA says an "average" dentist makes.

My 2nd associateship, and the practice that I'm now a partner in, was a bit different. While I was an associate, my (now) partner did put alot of my opinions into how the practice was run. I was involved in hiring/firing decisions, equipment/materials choices and general everyday business decisions. I still made a very nice amount of $$ (more than my 1st associateship, but wasn't getting a piece of the very lucrative hygiene profit pie that adds alot of the partners income. Most of the time though, come 5PM, I'd be out thte door with little, if any real business worries.

Now as a partner, yes I do get a chunk of the hygiene profit 👍 , but the business role is alot more. I'll typically be spend an average of 4 to 5 hours a week doing business administration (things like looking over rates for health insurance for my employees, looking at retirement benefit packages for my employees, looking at what the overhead is running at, looking at the accounts receiveable, looking at the quarterly tax numbers, etc) Granted alot of this is just reviewing reports by the accountant, insurance salesman, and financial planner, but it still takes time and effects the practice. Fir example, health insurance, which we provide to our fulltime employees, we just received our rate quotes for our next years plan (our plan goes July 1 - June 30), and our rates for our current plan are set to go up 13% next year, which for our 10 employees and family coverage for me and my partners family has us writing a check each month for almost $7,000 😱 Thsi doesn't even get into the "boss" things I get to do from time to time when one employee has a spat with another 🙄

Being the owner does have benefits, but added responsibilty (and hours) come with it.

I am a predent with a good business mind (I am an Accounting major) and I think that if/when (hopefully when and not if) I graduate from dental school I would like to buy a practice from a retiring dentist. I was wondering if you could give me a range of how much practices are being sold and bought for?
 
Great thread. Thanks for all the input folks. However, are there any women dentists out there who currently own their own practice or are parters? Is it even possible to own your own practice in your 30's when you have young children to take care of? What are some of the challenges and drawbacks as a woman in the dental profession? What about maternity leave? If you are a recent graduate and would like to be an associate, wouldn't this (maternity leave) be a problem to the person who wants to hire you? I mean, wouldn't it be a strike against you to know that you might have to take a 6 mo+ leave after only 1 or 2 years of working? I am going to start dental school this fall but this is a concern of mine for quite some time. Women dentists, please share your story and advice.
 
I recently attended a dinner lecture with one of the top dental practice brokers in the los angeles area. Some highlights:

1) The sale of a GP practice usually goes for between 70-100% of one years gross income (usually ~ 8x%). Specialties vary, but are generally valued less.

2) Buying a practice is almost impossible for a new grad. This is because the financing institutions (very few do dental) are reluctant to give loans to new grads because they have very high debt, little/no assets, and they are unproven to be able to produce enough dentistry to maintain the previous income levels.

3) Be careful about gradually buying into a practice. Make sure you have agreed on a time table for the transfer to avoid problems in the future. i.e. the seller becomes excited about the practicing doing well and not wanting to leave.

4) With the number of baby boomers who are retiring soon (increasing supply) and the high ratio of female new grads, who are generally less interested in owning (decreasing demand), the values of dental practices should cool down in the future.
 
martinelli said:
Great thread. Thanks for all the input folks. However, are there any women dentists out there who currently own their own practice or are parters? Is it even possible to own your own practice in your 30's when you have young children to take care of? What are some of the challenges and drawbacks as a woman in the dental profession? What about maternity leave? If you are a recent graduate and would like to be an associate, wouldn't this (maternity leave) be a problem to the person who wants to hire you? I mean, wouldn't it be a strike against you to know that you might have to take a 6 mo+ leave after only 1 or 2 years of working? I am going to start dental school this fall but this is a concern of mine for quite some time. Women dentists, please share your story and advice.


This is what I'm wondering, too. Having worked in Human Resources for a while, I don't think it'd be too big a problem to be hired as a younger woman; they know that it's likely you might require maternity leave at some point, but they're used to a whole staff of mostly women (receptionists, managers, hygienists) and probably have a way to go about it.

I'd think that it'd be harder for a woman to OWN her practice, because when she's gone on maternity leave, it's closed.

For this reason, even though I'm just starting in the fall and know nothing about it, isn't group ownership the best way to have autonomy without worrying about putting your practice in jeopardy?

Though I did just hear that specialists working under a larger company can make over 1 mil a year. That means working half time and staying home with the kids? A cool 500K! Good reason to consider specialties?
 
ShawnOne said:
I recently attended a dinner lecture with one of the top dental practice brokers in the los angeles area. Some highlights:

1) The sale of a GP practice usually goes for between 70-100% of one years gross income (usually ~ 8x%). Specialties vary, but are generally valued less.

2) Buying a practice is almost impossible for a new grad. This is because the financing institutions (very few do dental) are reluctant to give loans to new grads because they have very high debt, little/no assets, and they are unproven to be able to produce enough dentistry to maintain the previous income levels.

3) Be careful about gradually buying into a practice. Make sure you have agreed on a time table for the transfer to avoid problems in the future. i.e. the seller becomes excited about the practicing doing well and not wanting to leave.

4) With the number of baby boomers who are retiring soon (increasing supply) and the high ratio of female new grads, who are generally less interested in owning (decreasing demand), the values of dental practices should cool down in the future.

Nice input! 👍
 
J DUB said:
I have a follow-up question to business management ideas. Have you and your partner ever though about dropping health and retirement coverage and paying a larger salary? Or is this impossible to do because you could not retain quality employees? I was thinking maybe you could control your variable liabilities that what and make them more predictable because insurance costs go up every year. The insurance cost might could be offset with a flex mediical spending account for the employees as well. I know I have seen bigger companies trying to go this way to curtain the never ending rise of insurance costs. Just curious if any practicing dentists have ever tried not to not offer the standard benefits and still be able to get decent employees who would want a larger salary. Maybe she is under her husband's insurance plan, etc. Thanks,

In general as an employer, if you cut benefits(even then if you increase their salaries) your employees won't like it at all. That translates into unhappy employees, which generally equals lower productivity, or worse that employee leaving you. One thing you have to remember about running a dental practice is that in many areas of the country, is that your employees, be they hygenists, assistants or office personel tend to be in short supply, so when you find good people, you tend to take care of them. Case in point about the attempt to then increase the salary to offset a cut in benefits. With my hygenists, who currently get an hourly rate + benefits, about a year ago, my partner and I talked to them about switching their pay from an hourly rate to a percentage of collections. We showed them their collection numbers for the previous 2 years that would have had each of them making on average an extra $900 a year on a percentage of collections vs. and hourly rate, and they unanimously chose to stay with the hourly rate, because they looked at change as not a good thing(even in this case where they'd make more per year) 😕

Typically how we deal with an increase in our health insurance rates is by increasing our fees. And ingeneral, a simple increase in our fees by 1 to 2% more than covers the added increase in our health coverage.
 
DrJeff said:
With my hygenists, who currently get an hourly rate + benefits, about a year ago, my partner and I talked to them about switching their pay from an hourly rate to a percentage of collections. We showed them their collection numbers for the previous 2 years that would have had each of them making on average an extra $900 a year on a percentage of collections vs. and hourly rate, and they unanimously chose to stay with the hourly rate, because they looked at change as not a good thing(even in this case where they'd make more per year) 😕

Could another possibility be that they didn't like the idea of earning more presuming the office took in more? Maybe it felt too much like commission or took with it a danger of overtreating for increased production....?

I know some offices only give bonuses if you're way below the office budget and treat a LOT while getting through as many patients as possible in the day...maybe they liked the small office/family environment...?
 
I'mFillingFine said:
Could another possibility be that they didn't like the idea of earning more presuming the office took in more? Maybe it felt too much like commission or took with it a danger of overtreating for increased production....?

I know some offices only give bonuses if you're way below the office budget and treat a LOT while getting through as many patients as possible in the day...maybe they liked the small office/family environment...?

Doubtfull on this one, since what my partner and I do is figure on our hygenists total compensation (i.e. wages + healthcare benefits + retirement contribution + Continuing education fees) to be 33.33% of their total production. We look at their numbers every 6 months and make cut them a bonus check for the difference. My hygenists are fully aware that what they take home yearly is tied to what they produce, hence thata's why we give them total autonomy over theior schedules, so if they have an adult who has only 6 teeth, they can book them for shorter than the standard hour my hygenists have with an adult patient if they want to. That way if they want to increase their production (and hence paycheck) they can then fit an extra child into their schedule.
 
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