ASTRO 2024

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GapCalc

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A thread to discuss the annual meeting.

So far:
- Prostate proton vs IMRT QoL negative (5 years?)
- ARRO survey says 15% of PGY5s say the job market is tough, down from 70% in 2019-2020
- SCAROP meeting with zero word about residency slots, but a neat group photo!


Any news on the salary survey results?
 

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Have you treated a NSCLC to >60 Gy off trial?
Mixed histologies like adenosquamous, or boosting the center of ginormous bulky primaries where it doesn’t compromise dose fall off. What I usually WON’T do is take longer than 6-6.5 weeks. Agree with others that it is easier to justify escalating a case with aggressive biology than short-changing a curable case based on phase II data.
 
I dont view this as the same. I am more comfortable accepting phase II data to dose escalate than I am accepting phase II data to dose de-escalate a curable case.

There was 30% inferior survival on rtog 0617, dose escalation is definitely not always safe
 
LU005 is negative (Atezolizumab given concurrently to CRT and afterwards for LD-SCLC).
Are there any concurrent chemo-RT plus immunotherapy that have turned out positive?

It seems like they keep turning up negative like the JAVELIN trial for H&N and PACIFIC2 for lung

Maybe we're killing too many lymphocytes with the protracted radiation?
 
Are there any concurrent chemo-RT plus immunotherapy that have turned out positive?

It seems like they keep turning up negative like the JAVELIN trial for H&N and PACIFIC2 for lung

Maybe we're killing too many lymphocytes with the protracted radiation?

I think only the cervix trial off the top of my head. Even then I don't think OS has been reported yet (?maybe just DFS benefit)? Shooting from the hip here so i may be wrong.
 

There was 30% inferior survival on rtog 0617, dose escalation is definitely not always safe

Yes, but this was 60 versus 74. Are you interpreting this to mean don’t go above 60? As opposed to don’t go to 74?
 

There was 30% inferior survival on rtog 0617, dose escalation is definitely not always safe

For sure. I treat all NSCLC to 60 Gy because of that trial. In the setting where you don't know, though, that's what I meant.

Right now, for example, I do not dose de-escalate for early stage anal cancer, even though there is an ongoing Phase III trial. I do escalate for LS-SCLC, assuming I can meet traditional 45/30 constraints (typically per LU005). I explain to patients that it is limited phase II data, but the constraints do give us fair predictability regarding pneumonitis, etc. If I can't meet constraints, I revert to 45/30.

Not a perfect strategy or recommending this, just giving an example of how I do apply some data differently depending on the situation.
 
Dose de-escalation - tumor necessarily gets less dose (potential to compromise cure if you believe in dose response)

Dose escalation - normal tissue doesn’t necessarily get more dose due to superior planning, standard dose constraints etc. (isotoxic)
 
Yes, but this was 60 versus 74. Are you interpreting this to mean don’t go above 60? As opposed to don’t go to 74?
I’m interpreting this as dose escalation can have as bad or worse outcomes as de escalating. In fact, most dose escalation trials in rad onc have failed outside of prostate cancer and most increase the toxicity on some level. So I’m challenging the idea that it is better to err on the side of dose escalation.
 
Dose de-escalation - tumor necessarily gets less dose (potential to compromise cure if you believe in dose response)

Dose escalation - normal tissue doesn’t necessarily get more dose due to superior planning, standard dose constraints etc. (isotoxic)
Isotoxic dose escalation trials are the exception and not the norm. What is the latest isotoxic phase III dose escalation study from any cooperative group? ARTDeco, RTOG 0617,CONVERT and BN001 all straight up dose escalation with higher OAR doses
 
There’s also tbh no such thing as isotoxic. If you’re giving more dose, even if you’re meeting All constraints, you’re by definition giving more dose to the mormal tissues than if you prescribed a lower dose. Probablistically you’re increasing pneumonitis risk in stage III patients.

I’ll never understand people going to 66/33 for lung. You’re fooling yourself or getting an extra OTV. There’s no data to go higher. Harvard still goes to 70. Nuts IMO.
 
during my career in both academic and community practice, have had several patients die from pneumonitis. It is the only time, I have G4/5 side effects.
 
There’s also tbh no such thing as isotoxic. If you’re giving more dose, even if you’re meeting All constraints, you’re by definition giving more dose to the mormal tissues than if you prescribed a lower dose. Probablistically you’re increasing pneumonitis risk in stage III patients.

I’ll never understand people going to 66/33 for lung. You’re fooling yourself or getting an extra OTV. There’s no data to go higher. Harvard still goes to 70. Nuts IMO.

Goes to show that what some consider the standard of care, others think of as heresy and vice versa.

Someday we’ll have enough respect for one another to appreciate the differences. For now, it seems we’ve fostered a culture of fraction-shaming. More fractions must be all about the money, right?

Not like they actually believe in the basic concepts of radiobiology.
 
Goes to show that what some consider the standard of care, others think of as heresy and vice versa.

Someday we’ll have enough respect for one another to appreciate the differences. For now, it seems we’ve fostered a culture of fraction-shaming. More fractions must be all about the money, right?

Not like they actually believe in the basic concepts of radiobiology.

it's not even about fraction shaming. it's the fact that there's no evidence to go past 60, yet people do. go ahead if you want, but there's no benefit to the patient.

and tell me more about the 'basic concepts' of radiobiology. if so basic, dose escalation should always work, right?
 
Isotoxic dose escalation trials are the exception and not the norm. What is the latest isotoxic phase III dose escalation study from any cooperative group? ARTDeco, RTOG 0617,CONVERT and BN001 all straight up dose escalation with higher OAR doses

On those trials, did they allow switching to the lower dose arm if they couldn’t meet dose constraints?

Convert isn’t a dose escalation trial?
 
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There’s also tbh no such thing as isotoxic. If you’re giving more dose, even if you’re meeting All constraints, you’re by definition giving more dose to the mormal tissues than if you prescribed a lower dose. Probablistically you’re increasing pneumonitis risk in stage III patients.

I’ll never understand people going to 66/33 for lung.

One of those squirrely phase 2 studies:


Anyways I point this out because their standard/lower dose is 66 Gy.

Some people will also tell you that GTV is getting 66 Gy on historic trials so 60 Gy is underdosing the tumor.
 
if so basic, dose escalation should always work, right?

Dose escalation does pretty much always work if normal tissue is respected, HDR cervix, sbrt lung/liver, SRS, prostate FLAME, rectum, breast, HPV positive H&N lol

Dose escalation not working is the exception, for infiltrative tumors within sensitive normal tissue/mucosa — GBM, esophagus, stomach
 
Umm what? How many dose escalation trials have been negative - many many many, and has to do with lack of efficacy not dose limiting toxicity.

That’s a wild post. Wild.
 
What about non surgical N1 patients (T2N1) who would not have been eligible for 0617, everyone still 60gy or bust? I think it's valid to give more in that situation and you can't point at a trial of which they weren't the patient population to say otherwise.
 
it's not even about fraction shaming. it's the fact that there's no evidence to go past 60, yet people do. go ahead if you want, but there's no benefit to the patient.

and tell me more about the 'basic concepts' of radiobiology. if so basic, dose escalation should always work, right?

Right. Push dose up where you can so long as you can respect normal tissue constraints. There’s a lot that we do where evidence isn’t there and we have to make a judgment call.

There’s no benefit of the patient? Have you run a trial comparing 60 and 66? Please post it here so we can all learn from it.

Dose escalation in the context of respecting normal tissue constraints will always work. How could it not? You are killing more tumor cells. If you don’t believe this, then take lung to 40 (or less) versus 60.
 
Umm what? How many dose escalation trials have been negative - many many many, and has to do with lack of efficacy not dose limiting toxicity.

That’s a wild post. Wild.
I think @yesmaster is right in a way.

Let's imagine that we could increase dose 50% without any increase in dose to OARs.

Now let's figure out what scenarios that this would not be beneficial to the patient?

I would say they are the following.

1. Additional dose is unnecessary (think lymphoma). Local control is already excellent at lower doses and there is no meaningful improvement for local control with higher doses.

2. Local control doesn't matter much, because competing risk of distant dissemination drives outcomes (this is pretty common for solid malignancies) or the cancer presents in older people who have other competing risks that overwhelm any benefit that may be seen by dose escalation (lots of pCa patients).

Now in reality, dose escalation always means some increase in dose to OARs, and an associated increase in toxicity that may negatively impact important outcomes in some way, perhaps through subtle mechanisms (e.g. increased immunosuppression or decreased compliance with systemic therapy).

In my mind, it is OK to consider the above factors and at times offer a dose that may not be in and of itself validated by phase III data (like 66 for lung where its a big squamous and gus ain't getting much and lung dosimetry is very good).

It is also a bit crazy to dose escalate for the tumors @yesmaster offered above (gus, stomach, GBM).

Now for H&N cancers, we know that local control is uber important. We know that local outcomes drive survival outcomes and that chemo provides much of its benefit by enhancing local control. We know that local salvage is complicated and toxic. We also know that the natural history of H%N cancers is usually pretty brisk (most recurrences in first 2-3 years). So it's a cancer where one should be cautious about dose de-escalation as well as dose escalation (cause treatment is toxic AF).

Clinical trials only give us information on ensembles of patients. It's still OK to practice personalized medicine out there using the trials as guides. Therapeutic de-escalation happens every day for good reasons. This is why ITT and per protocol analyses can vary so much.
 
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I think @yesmaster is right in a way.

It is also a bit crazy to dose escalate for the tumors @yesmaster offered above.

No one is dose escalating like a crazy person. Let’s look at the tumors I offered, and what I actually said

HDR cervix - embrace data

Sbrt lung/liver - bed >100 equals better LC; you use 50-54 in 3-5? Then you agree with me.

SRS - personally I do 18-22 Gy in 1 fx, if you have to compromise dose around optic structures your LC goes down

prostate FLAME - there’s a phase 3 trial for this

rectum - do you SIB to higher dose than 50.4-54 for extra mesorectal nodes? do you slightly dose escalate to 54 if you’re aiming for rectal preservation?

breast - boost data, in rare cases if you treat gross disease in non surgical elderly patient I hope you’re not stopping at 60 eqd2

HPV positive H&N - 70/33-35 vs. the dose de-escalated arm

Again, no one is dose escalating in absence of evidence. I’m not even doing the SCLC above 45 bid yet. But it’s crazy to say tumor isn’t killed by higher doses in grey zones of evidence or clinical practice, especially in settings of excellent normal tissue sparing like SBRT and brachytherapy. If you feel otherwise, kick those cases back to med onc or go start another de-escalation IIT
 
rectum - do you SIB to higher dose than 50.4-54 for extra mesorectal nodes? do you slightly dose escalate to 54 if you’re aiming for rectal preservation?
I was referring to GBM, esophagus, stomach...that you pointed out (edited post).

Rectum is the only one that gives me bad vibes from your above post. I have seen recto-sigmoid fistula and eventual demise with escalation of primary above 54. Agree that gross sidewall nodes deserve escalation in this setting and will never be addressed surgically.
 
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Dose escalation does pretty much always work if normal tissue is respected, HDR cervix, sbrt lung/liver, SRS, prostate FLAME, rectum, breast, HPV positive H&N lol

Dose escalation not working is the exception, for infiltrative tumors within sensitive normal tissue/mucosa — GBM, esophagus, stomach
Dose escalation may also not work if the most common pattern of failure, that will ultimately limit survival, is not local progression, but distant progression.
 

There was 30% inferior survival on rtog 0617, dose escalation is definitely not always safe
It was my understanding that the folks who died in the dose escalated arm did so before getting to 74 Gy
 
I think also in the old dose escalation esophagus studies as well
Yes. All grade 5 events were before 50 Gy. Dose escalation didn’t work, but it was hard to conclude people died because of it.

My 2 cents on all of this, we are not critical enough about what dose even means. I know conceptually we are talking about the rx dose. But we can really push the conformality and get well over 60% of our PTV over 110-115% of rx dose or take the same target and obey the god of homogeneity and limit the max to 107%. I’ve seen recent trial objectives in both directions and without knowing these kinds of details, it’s hard to just look at the rx dose and make conclusions.
 
Umm what? How many dose escalation trials have been negative - many many many, and has to do with lack of efficacy not dose limiting toxicity.

That’s a wild post. Wild.
So many that someone wrote it up


1727789854813.png
 
Are there any concurrent chemo-RT plus immunotherapy that have turned out positive?

It seems like they keep turning up negative like the JAVELIN trial for H&N and PACIFIC2 for lung

Maybe we're killing too many lymphocytes with the protracted radiation?
KEYNOTE-A18 for T3-T4 Cervical cancer, Pembro was given concurrently/adjuvantly

Have you treated a NSCLC to >60 Gy off trial?
I would not take an entire PTV to > 60Gy off trial for NSCLC. Heating up the middle, sure. No reason to routinely be doing 66Gy in 33 fx for NSCLC.

60Gy + Cis was done off protocol by the believers for years.... 8% of all their treated patients have had an avoidable recurrence of their cancer.
Class action lawsuit time if not having received appropriate informed consent?
 
KEYNOTE-A18 for T3-T4 Cervical cancer, Pembro was given concurrently/adjuvantly


I would not take an entire PTV to > 60Gy off trial for NSCLC. Heating up the middle, sure. No reason to routinely be doing 66Gy in 33 fx for NSCLC.

60Gy + Cis was done off protocol by the believers for years.... 8% of all their treated patients have had an avoidable recurrence of their cancer.
Class action lawsuit time if not having received appropriate informed consent?

Re: 60 Gy + cis being done without real data...neophilia is a serious problem in this field.
 
The real data we need from HN-005 is the outcomes of the pts that progressed and if the progression was salvageable and the associated toxicity with the salvage therapies. Most HN recurrences have morbid salvage options but HPV+ pts may be different. If the PFS is worse but OS is the same with reasonable salvage options, then the de-escalation is not as unethical as people are purporting.

It would also be helpful to integrate the MSKCC data where they were able to de-escalate in ~85% of their HPV+ pts. It would be great to know if the 10% that progressed had hypoxic tumors, but not sure we will ever be able to get that data.
 
The real data we need from HN-005 is the outcomes of the pts that progressed and if the progression was salvageable and the associated toxicity with the salvage therapies. Most HN recurrences have morbid salvage options but HPV+ pts may be different. If the PFS is worse but OS is the same with reasonable salvage options, then the de-escalation is not as unethical as people are purporting.

It would also be helpful to integrate the MSKCC data where they were able to de-escalate in ~85% of their HPV+ pts. It would be great to know if the 10% that progressed had hypoxic tumors, but not sure we will ever be able to get that data.
I’d imagine outcomes and side effects with salvage must be worse than upfront cure.

At some point it’s more justifiable to not double down on bad- at least until we can more reliably predict responders/nonresponders to specific doses/treatments.
 
The real data we need from HN-005 is the outcomes of the pts that progressed and if the progression was salvageable and the associated toxicity with the salvage therapies. Most HN recurrences have morbid salvage options but HPV+ pts may be different. If the PFS is worse but OS is the same with reasonable salvage options, then the de-escalation is not as unethical as people are purporting.

It would also be helpful to integrate the MSKCC data where they were able to de-escalate in ~85% of their HPV+ pts. It would be great to know if the 10% that progressed had hypoxic tumors, but not sure we will ever be able to get that data.
MSKCC is picking their patients based on FMISO PET and that seems like the winning strategy. A 10Gy decrease isn't moving the needle far enough to tempt me to exchange PFS in HN.
 
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