At what point would you rat out a cheater?

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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Pezeveng

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What would be your threshold for informing school administrators about a systematic cheater in your MD class (assuming you had hard, unequivocal evidence)? When she cheats on a final exam? When she cheats on a small quiz? When she obtains past exams from previous classes?
Would your decision change if she was in the top of your class? Would your decision change if she was in the bottom of your class?
 
The fact that you're describing her as a "systematic" cheater makes it sound like you already know the answer. There's only one thing to do now:

upload_2017-2-25_1-30-4.png
 
Sounds like someone who would do anything to get ahead. There is a reason cheaters are almost always kicked out of med school.

I say report them.
 
Is there class ranking?

If yes and they're consistently scoring higher than you = you know what to do
If yes and they're regularly scoring lower than you = every one of the data points to the left can't hurt your standing..

In all seriousness, I'd report them as covertly as possible. Unless it is some dumb, irrelevant participation quiz. Even though that's still cheating, it'd be incredibly petty. Surmise whatever you have if your convictions compel you, and if it's full-pledged bound to be incriminating, OP had it coming his/her way, so don't feel bad. Honestly it sucks to be in your spot. Ideally no one would cheat in med school. Heck, I wouldn't want to know if anyone was cheating in med school because it's almost a lose/lose in knowing that the student will be damned to one degree or another, even if it is of their own doing.

Alas, the medical profession esteems itself on being a profession that demands the highest degrees of professionalism and ethics from those in its field. It would suck to hear in 20 years that this unreported doc gets caught up in something worse and ends up hurting patients.

NEVER CHEAT GUYS
 
What are they doing as their cheating? If it's a beyond the pale cheating, and a systematic thing, then yeah, I would report. It's not fair to everyone who works hard for their marks or to patients who rely on doctors to actually know the information. What a waste of a med school spot. 🙁

I wonder how often someone gets kicked out for cheating.
 
I would shut the **** up and mind my own business and let karma handle the rest.

They won't make it far when it comes to clinical. Few people from my program were kicked out some few classes ago for the same thing. Turns out they all less than stellar evals and couldn't essentially function in the hospital.

This is the exact reason I do not like a majority of med students. Everybody is in everybody else's business. Mind your own. Work your ass off. Let others do them.

You always reap what you sow little homie.
 
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DetectiveAlonzo said:
I would shut the **** up and mind my own business and let karma handle the rest.

They won't make it far when it comes to clinical. Few people from my program were kicked out some few classes ago for the same thing. Turns out they all less than stellar evals and couldn't essentially function in the hospital.

This is the exact reason I do not like a majority of med students. Everybody is everybody else's business. Mind your own. Work your ass off. Let others do them.

You always reap what you sow little homie.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of times when "mind your own damn business" is right, but this isn't one of em.

If the person wasn't studying enough and either failed or barely passes, then **** it that's their thing not mine.

If they misrepresent their knowledge when it's only their evaluation/grade at stake then I have no doubt that they'll put their own interests over their patients later. That means worse outcomes for patients, more work for me, and my profession comes out looking like **** when they're incompetent or malignant
 
I would personally mind my own business. However if I wanted to tell I would make sure none of my classmates even knew that I was on to this person. Then I would drive to the center of the city and find an old pay phone. I would use voice changing technology to call the administration.
 
DetectiveAlonzo said:
I would shut the **** up and mind my own business and let karma handle the rest.
They won't make it far when it comes to clinical. Few people from my program were kicked out some few classes ago for the same thing. Turns out they all less than stellar evals and couldn't essentially function in the hospital.
This is the exact reason I do not like a majority of med students. Everybody is everybody else's business. Mind your own. Work your ass off. Let others do them.
You always reap what you sow little homie.
Click to expand...

I'm not a snitch nor do I encourage snitching. However, there have been a documented example of a few students cheating on the USMLE, and their entire grad class is banned from taking the USMLE and becoming BC physicians.

You don't want to be a part of that clown show as an innocent bystander.
 
68PGunner said:
I'm not a snitch nor do I encourage snitching. However, there have been a documented example of a few students cheating on the USMLE, and their entire grad class is banned from taking the USMLE and becoming BC physicians.

You don't want to be a part of that clown show as an innocent bystander.
Click to expand...
How can they ban the whole class for the actions of a few?

How did they cheat on USMLE?

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile
 
cbrons said:
How can they ban the whole class for the actions of a few?
How did they cheat on USMLE?
Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

Someone got hold of USMLE test quests. Since they don't know which students in the class benefit from this cheating scenario, they assume that the entire class benefits from cheating. Therefore, everyone in that grad class will never become BC physicians.
 
Pezeveng said:
What would be your threshold for informing school administrators about a systematic cheater in your MD class (assuming you had hard, unequivocal evidence)? When she cheats on a final exam? When she cheats on a small quiz? When she obtains past exams from previous classes?
Would your decision change if she was in the top of your class? Would your decision change if she was in the bottom of your class?
Click to expand...

Just let Step 1 screen her out.
 
68PGunner said:
Someone got hold of USMLE test quests. Since they don't know which students in the class benefit from this cheating scenario, they assume that the entire class benefits from cheating. Therefore, everyone in that grad class will never become BC physicians.
Click to expand...
And how did they get ahold of this?

This sounds like a fake story, unless it is some unknown foreign school you go to. If an entire class at a US medical school was barred from taking any NBME exam, then it would be national news. Moreover, the students who didn't participate in the theft of questions (hard to imagine how this can be done***) would likely have cause for legal action against NBME, since their entire livelihoods are being taken away from them without justification.

*** Unless by "got hold of USMLE test quest" you mean that a student took Step I, memorized a few questions, and then passed on said questions to classmates.
 
For all the people saying turn them in would you also apply this to completing online completion quizzes as a group? For instance weekly 5 question biochem or physiology assignments?
 
Step 1 is the great equalizer. After having cheated their way through pre-clinical, they'll end up in the same position as @failedatlife. So maybe don't worry about it unless you go somewhere like UVA with a strict honor code requiring you to report them.
 
Mr Roboto said:
Step 1 is the great equalizer. After having cheated their way through pre-clinical, they'll end up in the same position as @failedatlife. So maybe don't worry about it unless you go somewhere like UVA with a strict honor code requiring you to report them.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that failedatlife was cheating his way through med school?
 
68PGunner said:
I'm not a snitch nor do I encourage snitching. However, there have been a documented example of a few students cheating on the USMLE, and their entire grad class is banned from taking the USMLE and becoming BC physicians.

You don't want to be a part of that clown show as an innocent bystander.
Click to expand...

LMAO. Sorry I don't buy it. Never have ever heard of that occurring ever.

Never saw it with the MCAT... I'm sure that'll never happen with the STEP or COMLEX neither. Much higher stakes at that point lol

But who knows!!!
 
Mr Roboto said:
Step 1 is the great equalizer. After having cheated their way through pre-clinical, they'll end up in the same position as @failedatlife. So maybe don't worry about it unless you go somewhere like UVA with a strict honor code requiring you to report them.
Click to expand...

Damn bruh...

No need to kick the homie when he's down.
 
dadaddadaBATMAN said:
There are a lot of times when "mind your own damn business" is right, but this isn't one of em.

If the person wasn't studying enough and either failed or barely passes, then **** it that's their thing not mine.

If they misrepresent their knowledge when it's only their evaluation/grade at stake then I have no doubt that they'll put their own interests over their patients later. That means worse outcomes for patients, more work for me, and my profession comes out looking like **** when they're incompetent or malignant
Click to expand...

Not condoning what someone allegedly did but the reputation of the entire profession being at stake is quite a stretch.

You really don't have enough info to claim with any kind of certainty that this person we know nothing about will become some kind of a villain of medical profession.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
Do you have said hard, unequivocal evidence? And is the cheating clear-cut? As has been suggested, studying from last year's exams may or may not be considered cheating, so is kind of a grey area. What is your school's honor code? Their policy regarding any duty to report other students who cheat?
 
Would you let her become your child's pediatrician? Would you want her taking care of your mother at the end of her life?

If your answer is no, then why would you subject anybody else? Academic integrity isn't just lip service and doing nothing doesn't absolve you of responsibility.
 
Shams al Deen said:
I don't understand snitch mentality. Maybe I just have no moral compass like Tony Soprano.
Click to expand...

Because it's not always just the cheater that gets in trouble. Apparently there was a kid at my undergrad who got caught copying off their neighbor's test. Both of them were punished even though only one person was cheating. If class rank matters and someone is cheating, they're affecting everyone who is ranked below them. Plus at many schools if you have evidence of cheating and don't turn someone in you can be punished for violating the honor code. I've also seen that happen in undergrad.

jw3600 said:
For all the people saying turn them in would you also apply this to completing online completion quizzes as a group? For instance weekly 5 question biochem or physiology assignments?
Click to expand...

In all seriousness, I do think it somewhat depends on the degree of "cheating". If people are doing small online quizzes in groups instead of on their own, I don't think it's really worth taking too seriously. If someone is regularly stealing answers and cheating on mid-terms and finals worth most of the grade then I'd feel obligated to report them. This isn't some profession where we're going to be flipping burgers or selling used cars, we're going to be taking care of people's lives. I wouldn't want someone who takes shortcuts caring for my family, and I wouldn't sit back and let that individual take care of someone else's family either.
 
68PGunner said:
Are you saying that failedatlife was cheating his way through med school?
Click to expand...

No not at all, I mean in the "got kicked in the crotch by Step 1" group. I'm sorry for that not being clear. 100% not implying that he cheated. Sorry.
 
There's plenty of evidence that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students. You're OK with that?

So they're entitled to be a doctor because they got accepted to medical school? Are there no ramifications to people's bad choices? Life doesn't stop after Step I. You want these people faking notes? Lying to their preceptors?

Shams al Deen said:
I'd give the colleague personal advice to cut it out and stop cheating. But ratting him out will likely ruin his life and I'm not about that.
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
There's plenty of evidence that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students. You're OK with that?

So they're entitled to be a doctor because they got accepted to medical school? Are there no ramifications to people's bad choices? Life doesn't stop after Step I. You want these people faking notes? Lying to their preceptors?
Click to expand...
I have more faith in people I guess. I don't think someone that googles a test question will end up putting their patient's life at risk by being dishonest. I like giving 2nd and 3rd chances but a lot of honor codes don't allow for that.
 
Mr Roboto said:
Step 1 is the great equalizer. After having cheated their way through pre-clinical, they'll end up in the same position as @failedatlife. So maybe don't worry about it unless you go somewhere like UVA with a strict honor code requiring you to report them.
Click to expand...

To be honest, this is what's on my mind.
I've decided to cool off and chill.
If it gets to a point where it just becoming obscene and it's affecting MY curve, I'll bring it up with the school. But, for now, I'm just going to keep minding my own business. It sucks because she is in the top quarter of the class and is paraded around as a "model student" because of her leadership in student government, etc. etc. But whatever.
It's honestly given me more motivation to work harder and smarter and, even though I'm an average/below-average student, I'd rather be here at average the just, honest way than cheat and maybe crawl into the top 25. I'll sleep better at night.
 
depends, how hot is she?
 
Stagg737 said:
In all seriousness, I do think it somewhat depends on the degree of "cheating". If people are doing small online quizzes in groups instead of on their own, I don't think it's really worth taking too seriously. If someone is regularly stealing answers and cheating on mid-terms and finals worth most of the grade then I'd feel obligated to report them. This isn't some profession where we're going to be flipping burgers or selling used cars, we're going to be taking care of people's lives. I wouldn't want someone who takes shortcuts caring for my family, and I wouldn't sit back and let that individual take care of someone else's family either.
Click to expand...

At this point, it is in-class quizzes (that aren't curved), lab practicals (that are curved), and some past questions for midterms (which are school mostly recycles). See my post just above, but I've decided to just lay cool unless it gets to a point where it's impacting the class overall curve. I think your post was one of the more thoughtful ones on the thread and I thank you for that.
 
Pezeveng said:
To be honest, this is what's on my mind.
I've decided to cool off and chill.
If it gets to a point where it just becoming obscene and it's affecting MY curve, I'll bring it up with the school. But, for now, I'm just going to keep minding my own business. It sucks because she is in the top quarter of the class and is paraded around as a "model student" because of her leadership in student government, etc. etc. But whatever.
It's honestly given me more motivation to work harder and smarter and, even though I'm an average/below-average student, I'd rather be here at average the just, honest way than cheat and maybe crawl into the top 25. I'll sleep better at night.
Click to expand...

LOL

The fact that it is only about YOUR curve means it's not really a moral issue now is it?

Look brotendo...

Who gives a flying phuck if you're not in the top 25 dude. Get over it.

I get you wanna be "the best" but you can literally chill out... you made it into med school bro.

Keep working hard and pay attention to YOUR own performance. Not hers.

Don't be a hater.

Insecurity is a bisssh.
 
I personally don't think I could ever report someone. Unless they were an intolerable douche and it was a major form of cheating.

There is a world of difference between cheating on a little quiz and having answers to a final exam.

If they're "cheating" on some sort of irrelevant 5 point clinical skills quizzes or something like that, I PRAY that you don't ruin some future doctor's life over something that small.

If someone cheats on a little quiz, or even does so consistently, whatever. That stuff is a tiny fraction of your grade in the first place. Plus if they do fine on the final exam without cheating, theyre not completely circumventing the learning process. Even if they went to the bathroom during an exam Googled an answer or two, I'd be a little mad but it I couldn't report that. I don't think looking up the answer to which protein on the surface of HIV functions in the attachment the host cell is really going to compromise patient care.

Plus, from my knowledge (I admit I don't know everything), preclinical grades range anywhere from irrelevant to moderately considered in residency applications. If you're worried about "competing" against this person, boards and clinical rotations will sort them out.

I do not condone cheating, and I loathe the thought of pouring countless hours into material while some idiot has the answer already, but it's still not worth ruining their life when the system already has other equalizers in place. This is just my personal opinion.
 
Also, please do correct me if I'm wrong, but will you ever be in the position as a doctor where you're making a clinical life vs death decision based on something you learned in the preclinical years? I don't think so. At least I sure as hell hope when I'm a graduated doctor that I won't be making decisions based on first year medical minutia that I forgot a day after the exam anyways.

Edit: @Goro makes a strong point.
 
Take this all as a grain of salt. I grew up believing that snitching was the worst crime that could be committed. But I have seen real criminals flip for less.
 
CollegeSoze said:
Also, please do correct me if I'm wrong, but will you ever be in the position as a doctor where you're making a clinical life vs death decision based on something you learned in the preclinical years? I don't think so. At least I sure as hell hope when I'm a graduated doctor that I won't be making decisions based on first year medical minutia that I forgot a day after the exam anyways.

Edit: @Goro makes a strong point.
Click to expand...

It's not a matter about content learned vs not learned. It's a matter that she is a dishonest person and that doesn't end with quizzes and tests. From lying about physical exam findings to covering up mistakes that were made, dishonest doctors start as dishonest students.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...ctor_suspended_after_prostate_cancer_mistake/
 
I say turn them in. They made their choice. You shouldn't be thinking about their potential punishment because you aren't rightfully involved in that discussion.
 
CharlieBillings said:
I say turn them in. They made their choice. You shouldn't be thinking about their potential punishment because you aren't rightfully involved in that discussion.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. She knew that someone may catch on and she still chose to take that risk. She is doing this at the expense of your classmates and her future colleagues and patients. There is no room for cheaters when lives are at stake. The "bury your head in the sand" arguments are tiresome and frustrating. If everyone just buried their head in the sand society would be overrun with criminals.
 
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