At what point would you rat out a cheater?

[syma]

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Most situational judgement tests say that you should address the problem directly with the person involved first, give them the opportunity to admit fault.

Cheating is an obvious no go.. But candour can be redeemable.

Talk to her first.

 

[Psai]

I'm not a snitch nor do I encourage snitching. However, there have been a documented example of a few students cheating on the USMLE, and their entire grad class is banned from taking the USMLE and becoming BC physicians.

You don't want to be a part of that clown show as an innocent bystander.

Gonna need some proof cause this doesn't pass the sniff test

 

[Beezlebub]

I'd give the colleague personal advice to cut it out and stop cheating. But ratting him out will likely ruin his life and I'm not about that.

Not ratting him out will risk putting his future patients at risk (if he's fortunate enough to make it that far) because instead of learning abg interpretation he decided to take the path of least resistance and omit it.

 

[Stagg737]

And cheating in pre-clinical is nowhere near the same as compromising patient care.

Maybe not, but a regular pattern of cheating and dishonesty is reflective of an overall personality issue which may be carried over into other aspects of the individual's career and life. If it were a one time thing that was done in panic I could chalk that up to a poor decision and move on, but OP is describing a student who seems to regularly cheat on lab practicals and mid-terms. That implies a pattern of unethical behavior and I personally wouldn't trust an individual such as her with a patient's life. The question becomes "Do you believe this person is trustworthy enough to see patients in the future?". With the information OP has given, my opinion is no and I would likely take some action in this situation.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Talk to her directly and tell her you know what she's doing. Say you don't want to ruin her life, but she needs to stop and play fairly. Maybe even offer to help her if she feels like she can't handle the material the right way. In any case, I think if she continues to cheat after you speak with her, you're kind of obligated to all of us coming up to inform your administration. She'll be out working with us one day and I'd like to be able to trust my future colleagues.

 

[iBro]

Take this all as a grain of salt. I grew up believing that snitching was the worst crime that could be committed. But I have seen real criminals flip for less.

What is your definition of a snitch?

It's my understanding that a snitch is someone who agrees to do something against the rules with someone else. When they get caught then they spill the beans on the other person in hopes of saving themselves.

Reporting someone for cheating does not seem like snitching to me at all.

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[aalamruad]

Lol, all this "snitch" hate is hilarious and ridiculous. You guys aren't gangsters or heroin peddlers, you're future physicians. Hold yourselves to a higher standard of ethics than criminals do..

 

[3characterslong]

What is your definition of a snitch?

It's my understanding that a snitch is someone who agrees to do something against the rules with someone else. When they get caught then they spill the beans on the other person in hopes of saving themselves.

Thats a pretty specific definition. My understanding was that it was essentially informing the police/authorities about a crime/wrongdoing, especially when you are not the victimized party.

 

[Goro femme]

At this point, it is in-class quizzes (that aren't curved), lab practicals (that are curved), and some past questions for midterms (which are school mostly recycles). See my post just above, but I've decided to just lay cool unless it gets to a point where it's impacting the class overall curve. I think your post was one of the more thoughtful ones on the thread and I thank you for that.

So once you do decide to act because cheater will become more emboldened as she gets away with more...
You: I feel the need to report Student Doctor Smith is cheating.
Administrator: How long have you known that this is going on?
You: About six months
Administrator: Why did you decide to wait?
You: Because she is getting really high scores, and it is affecting the curve
Administrator: I will look into your claim but will have to also mention on dean's letter that you have questionable judgment

I recommend you act now or your credibility will be affected.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Maybe not, but a regular pattern of cheating and dishonesty is reflective of an overall personality issue which may be carried over into other aspects of the individual's career and life. If it were a one time thing that was done in panic I could chalk that up to a poor decision and move on, but OP is describing a student who seems to regularly cheat on lab practicals and mid-terms. That implies a pattern of unethical behavior and I personally wouldn't trust an individual such as her with a patient's life. The question becomes "Do you believe this person is trustworthy enough to see patients in the future?". With the information OP has given, my opinion is no and I would likely take some action in this situation.

Well what you are doing is setting an arbitrary threshold of extrapolation. Mine just happens to be higher than yours.

 

[Psai]

Lol, all this "snitch" hate is hilarious and ridiculous. You guys aren't gangsters or heroin peddlers, you're future physicians. Hold yourselves to a higher standard of ethics than criminals do..

Not a heroin peddler...?

 

[aalamruad]

Not a heroin peddler...?

?

 

[jw3600]

?

Opioid epidemic? Whoosh.

 

[aalamruad]

Opioid epicdemic? Whoosh.

edit: nice ninja edit

 

[jw3600]

edit: nice ninja edit

Blame it on the mobes.

SENT FROM MY IPHONE

 

[meurotic]

Lots of factors can push a person to cheat. Depression would be my biggest concern here. If she's already having a really hard time, ratting her out could push her over the edge to do something drastic and irreversible.

Maybe talk to her about it? A positive influence and a friendly, non-judging ear could be all she needs.

 

[751866]

Lots of factors can push a person to cheat. Depression would be my biggest concern here. If she's already having a really hard time, ratting her out could push her over the edge to do something drastic and irreversible.

Maybe talk to her about it? A positive influence and a friendly, non-judging ear could be all she needs.

Might be more relevant argument if the person was borderline failing and cheating to get by (still wrong). I just don't think most people will give a pass for a cheater who's doing well in class and has a CV with lots of stuff on it.

Either way, the OP isn't the one to pass judgment on how the student will be handled. OP would be turning the cheater in to the administration so they can make the judgement and exercise their authority.

 

[meurotic]

Might be more relevant argument if the person was borderline failing and cheating to get by (still wrong). I just don't think most people will give a pass for a cheater who's doing well in class and has a CV with lots of stuff on it.

Either way, the OP isn't the one to pass judgment on how the student will be handled. OP would be turning the cheater in to the administration so they can make the judgement and exercise their authority.

If the cheater in question is an approachable person and the OP doesn't mind getting a bit involved, approaching the person first could be a fruitful method. There is no definitive approach without considering the full picture.

 

[IlDestriero]

Blackmail.
Just a thought.


--
Il Destriero

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

Blackmail.
Just a thought.

I've told this story in the past, but once there was a student editing class dropbox lecture notes/outlines to include false info. Unknown to the perpetrator, the student running the dropbox could see who the person was based on their log-in info.

As a class we told the person on the group FB page that we would rat them out if they did it again. Silence ever since.

That same student ended up getting let go due to other professionalism issues anyway

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Lol, all this "snitch" hate is hilarious and ridiculous. You guys aren't gangsters or heroin peddlers, you're future physicians. Hold yourselves to a higher standard of ethics than criminals do..

Haha this. This thread is like a Law and Order episode. It's not like telling on someone who cheats will get you the shiv by their cronies in the cell blocks.

 

[751866]

If the cheater in question is an approachable person and the OP doesn't mind getting a bit involved, approaching the person first could be a fruitful method. There is no definitive approach without considering the full picture.

Right, but by the OP taking action aside from letting the administration know, the OP is effectively using discretion or authority that he or she doesn't have in this case. Presumably you mean OP could talk to the cheater and hope they stop and this all goes away. That's something for the administration to decide. The idea that the OP might say "clean up your act or I'll tell" will also put the OP in a bad spot as well since now this cheater will see OP as a potential source or adversary-- just as Huggy mentioned above.

I think your approach is fine if your code of conduct says student policing and student judgement are adequate responses in this case, but I assume there's no mention of student judgment over the administration's.

 

[libertyyne]

I've told this story in the past, but once there was a student editing class dropbox lecture notes/outlines to include false info. Unknown to the perpetrator, the student running the dropbox could see who the person was based on their log-in info.

As a class we told the person on the group FB page that we would rat them out if they did it again. Silence ever since.

That same student ended up getting let go due to other professionalism issues anyway

How do these people get past all the hoops.
1. That person was not smart enough to realize there are logs for changes.
2 .What a low yield way to get ahead.
3.did the person at least get ostracized for this?
4. Did this person forget that there are 20k+ people they are competing against in terms of boards?

 

[Semmelweiser]

The first time, every time, preferably following a conversation with the individual.

Getting caught that first time will hopefully net the individual less severe reprimand, while still giving them a pretty direct appreciation for the consequences of cheating and the opportunity to learn from their mistake. It doesn't even have to be about "what's right" or "helping yourself" (though it certainly can be); you're doing the individual themselves a massive favor. Eventually they're going to get caught, and I am pretty sure in the scheme of things they would rather get caught when the consequences don't automatically come with getting kicked out of school/losing your license/killing someone/having to fight with your cell mate for the top bunk.

 

[Chimichica]

OP, do what you think is best but when I personally think of situations like this I admit I am on the conflict avoidance side of things. However, personally in the work force where it does affect patients I have escalated the issue to management, but in academics I have let it run its course (most of the time the person gets caught soon after I'm aware)
First, how did you come to know exactly how and when this person cheats. It seems to me that you are very involved in what this person does. Probably more so as you saw more of the cheating. This all increases stress. If you bomb a test and she does well, part of your focus will be on her instead of completely focusing on yourself and how to improve.
Second, I understand the dishonesty part of things, but this is America where most of our history is built through lies and immorality, medicine is not excluded from that. Doesn't make it right, but one can be most effective when they put their efforts into cotrolling themselves and how they affect the world.
Third, last time I checked just because someone did or didn't cheat in school does not mean that they will or will not do it in practice.
Fourth, cheating for prestige and cheating for competence are completely different. One is harmful and the other is cosmetic. If this girl is an innate B student otherwise and she cheats to get A's then she may not be hurting anyone but herself. However, if she is an otherwise bottom 25% then I say she is probably going to cause harm to someone. The good thing is shelf exams, residency, USMLE/COMLEX, and any other standardized test will sort her out. When it counts she will have to prove her worth and I doubt she can end up where she wants to by doing what she's doing, faculty aren't stupid and it will show eventually.
My thing is unless your friends with this person I'm sure you're not the only one who knows she cheats. Whispers will spread and it will come out, but I wouldn't want to be the one standing in the middle of a firestorm with another student, a possible lawsuit, and the school administrators.
In a perfect world you could report it once and be left alone but I'm sure that is not what will happen. Sorry for the long post, but I say let the powers that be handle it. She will slip up and you can just be happy that you didn't have to be involved.

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[Promethean]

I don't go out of my way to know other people's business, but when they are incautious enough that I learn that they are cheating then they are being sloppy enough to deserve to be reported.

I have turned in a cheater before, in nursing school. Someone was allowed to take an exam ahead of the rest of the class, because of an appointment. He was going from person to person, telling them what was on the exam, in detail. I was upset, because he put me in a position where my own academic integrity was being compromised. So, I went to the professor and told him what had happened. He was upset, and provided us with an alternative test, and disciplined the guy, though not enough. He wasn't thrown out of school, or even the course.

Later, we found out that he really did have bad character. He was caught stealing food from the cafeteria, but that didn't get him in serious trouble. It did finally take him making a mistake with a patient and then lying about it before he was thrown out the first time. Even then, he lawyered up and managed to get one last chance. The last straw was when he had a HIPAA violation by talking about a patient in a public place, in front of their family members who overheard everything.

They are never *just* cheaters. People who lack the integrity to do their own work and learn the material will do other things that are out of bounds. They are people who feel that rules don't really apply to them, and that they are too special to have to submit to the same standards as others. Those traits will manifest again, and at times when they can cause real harm to others. If you know that someone is cheating, and you don't report them, that is a stain on your character. It says something about who you are and what you value.

 

[wholeheartedly]

As others have said, it rarely stops with just cheating in school. It also isn't just about shortchanging patients with a lower knowledge base. Pressure to do well happens on the wards in clinical years and even during residency. I spent the better part of a decade working in a large teaching hospital seeingthis crap first hand, not just with docs either. This behavior comes out in a variety of ways, documenting exams they didn't do, questions that weren't asked, lying and throwing others under the bus for their mistakes.

It goes on up the training line because people keep passing the buck, oh step 1 will sort it out, oh they'll get nailed during clerkship, oh they won't make it through residency, etc.

 

[Stagg737]

Well what you are doing is setting an arbitrary threshold of extrapolation. Mine just happens to be higher than yours.

So what is your threshold? Your posts seem to imply that cheating is nbd as long as you do it before clinical years. Everyone on this thread that's telling OP not to report it seems to think that the cheater is going to get what's coming to her down the road, but that'll never happen if everyone just let's all of her unethical behavior slide all the time...

 

[Beezlebub]

So what is your threshold? Your posts seem to imply that cheating is nbd as long as you do it before clinical years. Everyone on this thread that's telling OP not to report it seems to think that the cheater is going to get what's coming to her down the road, but that'll never happen if everyone just let's all of her unethical behavior slide all the time...

Dr. Zoidberg, you're the real MVP

 

[751866]

So what is your threshold? Your posts seem to imply that cheating is nbd as long as you do it before clinical years. Everyone on this thread that's telling OP not to report it seems to think that the cheater is going to get what's coming to her down the road, but that'll never happen if everyone just let's all of her unethical behavior slide all the time...

People like pretending that grown adults aren't responsible for their own actions. We all entered into school and presumably the profession on a set of terms. Part of being in a true profession is self-policing and ensuring members of the profession uphold the standards and ethics of the profession. You can't get away with cherry picking the parts you like and don't like.

It's curious how many people will flaunt the "prestige, responsibility, and nobility" of medicine, but actually walking the walk is where a lot of these people seem to hop off the train...

 

[meurotic]

Right, but by the OP taking action aside from letting the administration know, the OP is effectively using discretion or authority that he or she doesn't have in this case. Presumably you mean OP could talk to the cheater and hope they stop and this all goes away. That's something for the administration to decide. The idea that the OP might say "clean up your act or I'll tell" will also put the OP in a bad spot as well since now this cheater will see OP as a potential source or adversary-- just as Huggy mentioned above.

I think your approach is fine if your code of conduct says student policing and student judgement are adequate responses in this case, but I assume there's no mention of student judgment over the administration's.

I agree with you on all of these points. I was simply suggesting a possible friendly contact with the cheater in order to have a better picture of the situation. In addition, I do believe that cheating can carry over to clinical practice, which is why I would personally want a better picture of the student exhibiting cheating behavior before I approached administration. I also wouldn't want to spread misinformation about the student. Every situation is different, and if you don't want to get too involved, simply telling administration could work, but it could also paint a false picture of the cheater and unnecessarily jeopardize their future.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

OP, you don't owe this person sh**. Like most people have already said, her cheating now will only translate into worse behavior later, which will not only harm patients but also your colleagues and the healthcare system in general. Do the right thing -> report her cheating ass to admin. I agree with the sentiment that if someone lets cheating and other unprofessional behavior slide, then they are part of the problem. It really is a stain on one's morality and character to let this kind of behavior (and worse) happen without consequence. And all the crap about "don't rat her out cuz it could jeopardize her future;" that is complete BS and the weakest argument I have ever heard. She did that to herself by consistently displaying the unethical behavior of cheating, so therefore she deserves the consequences of her actions.

 

[CharlieBillings]

I've told this story in the past, but once there was a student editing class dropbox lecture notes/outlines to include false info. Unknown to the perpetrator, the student running the dropbox could see who the person was based on their log-in info.

As a class we told the person on the group FB page that we would rat them out if they did it again. Silence ever since.

That same student ended up getting let go due to other professionalism issues anyway

My god I would have done my absolute best to get that person expelled. That's utterly horrifying, and seems to show conscious planning of the action.

 

[sliceofbread136]

So what is your threshold? Your posts seem to imply that cheating is nbd as long as you do it before clinical years. Everyone on this thread that's telling OP not to report it seems to think that the cheater is going to get what's coming to her down the road, but that'll never happen if everyone just let's all of her unethical behavior slide all the time...

Hurting people is my threshold. Otherwise not worth the time, effort or risk. Id also like to think that when it actually counts people will come through and do the right thing

 

[Stagg737]

Hurting people is my threshold. Otherwise not worth the time, effort or risk. Id also like to think that when it actually counts people will come through and do the right thing

I guess that's fair, but when I see an individual doing things that seriously make me question their ethics to the point that I feel they may endanger their future patients, I'd chose to be proactive as opposed to taking a "let's wait and see what develops" approach.

I also like to try and have faith in people and think they'll do the right thing. I've seen people do the opposite enough times to know that this is often not the case, especially when you want to believe that someone can break a behavior that they have repeatedly demonstrated in the past.

 

[jw3600]

OP, you don't owe this person sh**. Like most people have already said, her cheating now will only translate into worse behavior later, which will not only harm patients but also your colleagues and the healthcare system in general. Do the right thing -> report her cheating ass to admin. I agree with the sentiment that if someone lets cheating and other unprofessional behavior slide, then they are part of the problem. It really is a stain on one's morality and character to let this kind of behavior (and worse) happen without consequence. And all the crap about "don't rat her out cuz it could jeopardize her future;" that is complete BS and the weakest argument I have ever heard. She did that to herself by consistently displaying the unethical behavior of cheating, so therefore she deserves the consequences of her actions.

I have no problem with turning them in but I don't really agree with the "part of the problem" point of view.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Not condoning what someone allegedly did but the reputation of the entire profession being at stake is quite a stretch.

You really don't have enough info to claim with any kind of certainty that this person we know nothing about will become some kind of a villain of medical profession.


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I'm not saying cheating on a test makes you look like lex Luthar, and I'm not saying that the New York Times is going to race to the presses if they hear about it.

But if you are enough of a turd to cheat on a medical school exam rather than just study for it, you are telling me that you:

1. Are incapable of taking responsibility for your actions
2. Don't have a great grasp on risk vs benefit (even ignoring morality it's stupid)
3. Aren't capable enough of delaying gratification to do things correctly

It's not rocket science. Someone who does this in pre-clinicals is more likely to do something similar or worse later than someone who does not.

I would argue that someone who cheats on a medical school exam has given me plenty of reason to think they will repeat that behavior. I strongly disagree with you on that.

And it embarrasses me when I see someone else in my line of work who is completely incompetent. When you have lax enough standards it becomes more common

 

[holycrap]

just tell her you know shes cheating and that you'll snitch unless she gives you $10,000, then when she gives you the money snitch anyway

 

[TXMED_1695]

I had a similar situation happen to me during my UG. My Cell Biology Professor was very hard. I spent more time studying for her exams more than all my other classes combined during that semester. A student was having a session with that Professor in her office, the Professor had to leave her office for a few minutes and the student stole exam 3, and the final exam out of folders on her desk. I was in the library studying, and another student tried to give me a copy of the final exam (I asked him how he got it, and he told me what the other student had done). I anonymously emailed my professor probably 5-10 minutes after the guy left, but someone else had already told my Professor what was going on. Either you, or someone else, cheaters/thief's always get caught in the end.

What would be your threshold for informing school administrators about a systematic cheater in your MD class (assuming you had hard, unequivocal evidence)? When she cheats on a final exam? When she cheats on a small quiz? When she obtains past exams from previous classes?
Would your decision change if she was in the top of your class? Would your decision change if she was in the bottom of your class?

 

[787593]

What would be your threshold for informing school administrators about a systematic cheater in your MD class (assuming you had hard, unequivocal evidence)? When she cheats on a final exam? When she cheats on a small quiz? When she obtains past exams from previous classes?
Would your decision change if she was in the top of your class? Would your decision change if she was in the bottom of your class?

http://fox6now.com/2013/07/18/doctor-involved-in-local-cocaine-ring-still-practicing-medicine/

Hell, if dealing cocaine doesn't take someone down...

 

[SunsFun]

I'm not saying cheating on a test makes you look like lex Luthar, and I'm not saying that the New York Times is going to race to the presses if they hear about it.

But if you are enough of a turd to cheat on a medical school exam rather than just study for it, you are telling me that you:

1. Are incapable of taking responsibility for your actions
2. Don't have a great grasp on risk vs benefit (even ignoring morality it's stupid)
3. Aren't capable enough of delaying gratification to do things correctly

It's not rocket science. Someone who does this in pre-clinicals is more likely to do something similar or worse later than someone who does not.

I would argue that someone who cheats on a medical school exam has given me plenty of reason to think they will repeat that behavior. I strongly disagree with you on that.

And it embarrasses me when I see someone else in my line of work who is completely incompetent. When you have lax enough standards it becomes more common

I cheated on almost every single exam in high school and my morals back then aren't that much different than they are now. Should I just quit medicine?

You make a lot of assumptions in here that have zero support behind them. What we can see from some research is that there are people who would never cheat and those who will go above and beyond. Everyone else falls in the middle. The goal is to get rid of those "sociopaths" that continuously cut corners. Is the person described one of them? Possibly, but there is just not enough info for any of us here to know for sure.

Also, I honestly think people who are too rigid and think "cheating" (which could be minor crap most people have done at least once during their schooling) is reason for immediate severe punishment, are just as insufferable to work with as those who always try to scheme the system.


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[dadaddadaBATMAN]

I cheated on almost every single exam in high school and my morals back then aren't that much different than they are now. Should I just quit medicine?

You make a lot of assumptions in here that have zero support behind them. What we can see from some research is that there are people who would never cheat and those who will go above and beyond. Everyone else falls in the middle. The goal is to get rid of those "sociopaths" that continuously cut corners. Is the person described one of them? Possibly, but there is just not enough info for any of us here to know for sure.

Also, I honestly think people who are too rigid and think "cheating" (which could be minor crap most people have done at least once during their schooling) is reason for immediate severe punishment, are just as insufferable to work with as those who always try to scheme the system.


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Its not an assumption, it's an observation of current behavior. There may be mitigating factors, but none are presented in this hypothetical.

You're also making a lot of fairly silly comparisons. There are qualitative aspects to this that you are not taking into account.

If you're caught cheating in high school you might get a bad grade or fail the course. Little effect on your life long term.

If you cheat in medical school you might end up without a career and out tens of thousands of dollars.

You might as well compare shoplifting with Medicare fraud. Or perhaps a fight with a sibling as a high schooler with a bar fight as a thirty year old. It's an asinine comparison.

You seem to point this out yourself. Are you currently cheating on all your exams? Presumably no, yet your moral viewpoints are very similar.

I also have way higher expectations of a 24 year old than I do of a high schooler. This is something important, and this person needs a coming to Jesus moment of one kind or another, pronto. Or they need to get the hell out of the field.

I'm not one of the kohlberg level 2 "rules are rules" fanatics, I just think that this is a lot more serious than you do apparently.

 

[SunsFun]

Its not an assumption, it's an observation of current behavior. There may be mitigating factors, but none are presented in this hypothetical.

You're also making a lot of fairly silly comparisons. There are qualitative aspects to this that you are not taking into account.

If you're caught cheating in high school you might get a bad grade or fail the course. Little effect on your life long term.

If you cheat in medical school you might end up without a career and out tens of thousands of dollars.

You might as well compare shoplifting with Medicare fraud. Or perhaps a fight with a sibling as a high schooler with a bar fight as a thirty year old. It's an asinine comparison.

You seem to point this out yourself. Are you currently cheating on all your exams? Presumably no, yet your moral viewpoints are very similar.

I also have way higher expectations of a 24 year old than I do of a high schooler. This is something important, and this person needs a coming to Jesus moment of one kind or another, pronto. Or they need to get the hell out of the field.

I'm not one of the kohlberg level 2 "rules are rules" fanatics, I just think that this is a lot more serious than you do apparently.

I am not sure how you conclude that I don't think that what someone here allegedly did is not serious. My point is that neither I nor you know what exactly happened and I would reserve my judgement until I know what they did and what that alleged evidence is. Notice, I qualified my argument from the very start precisely to avoid having to address the point I didn't make.

I was trying to make a different argument. I dislike when people say things like "dishonest blah makes dishonest blah" and defend it with "common sense" argument or some anecdote. You had to qualify your argument once high school got mentioned because the same exact reasoning can be applied to someone who cheats on a high school exam as well. I would like to see fewer unnecessary generalizations and look at things on case by case basis.


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