Atherosclerosis: The Beginning of the End

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SeekerOfTheTree

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Hey Guys,

I encountered this question on one of the Q-Banks (Rx). In short it asked what is the first step in atherosclerosis caused by hyperlipidemia. I picked Endothelial dysfunction because our professors mashed this into our head and Robbins confirms it because without chronic endothelial dysfunction nothing can happen. However, the Qbank argues it is the LDL cholesterol oxidation. Can someone help tell me what I should pick if this does show up on the USMLE?
 
On the USMLE always pick endothelial injury as the first step. Oxidized LDL plays a role in endothelial injury. Other factors that also cause endothelial injury are like wall shearing effect of Hypertension, Products of tobbaco smoking ( I think in case of smoking it is the free radicals but am not sure), nonenzymatic glycosylation in Diabetes also the formation of a triglyceride rich LDL molecule in Diabetes etc all these first cause endothelial damage. SO as far as USMLE is concerned FIRST STEP ENDOTHELIAL INJURY
 
Haha, I also remember getting that question and thinking it must have been an error.

Def endothelial cell first
 
I agree with the Qbank.
if they are specific about hyperlipidemia, it is obviously oxidation of LDL, free radicals oxidise LDL and now they look foreign to the immune system and liver, oxidised LDL cant be taken in by hepatocyte LDL-receptor, macrophages gobble them up using SR-A receptor and migrate into the subendothelium where they gobble up more, as SR-A receptors do not get downregulated like LDL-receptors when cells become full, so macrophage become foam cells etc etc --> endothelial damage...

but if they keep the question general I would say endothelial damage...
 
I have to say that answer is wrong here, even if the question specified hyperlipidemia. Endothelial dysfunction precedes LDL entry and modification (not vice versa). Then comes LDL entry and oxidation, then monocyte recruitment, then foam cell formation.
 
I have to say that answer is wrong here, even if the question specified hyperlipidemia. Endothelial dysfunction precedes LDL entry and modification (not vice versa). Then comes LDL entry and oxidation, then monocyte recruitment, then foam cell formation.

So then what would you propose to be the impetus behind the endothelial dysfunction?
 
Thanks guys. It is so funny to think about how we all came across that question and went...WHAAAAT? lol. Good luck on Step 1 to those who need it!
 
Hey Guys,

I encountered this question on one of the Q-Banks (Rx). In short it asked what is the first step in atherosclerosis caused by hyperlipidemia. I picked Endothelial dysfunction because our professors mashed this into our head and Robbins confirms it because without chronic endothelial dysfunction nothing can happen. However, the Qbank argues it is the LDL cholesterol oxidation. Can someone help tell me what I should pick if this does show up on the USMLE?

ok, I went back to this and researched it in Harrison's, Robbin's and also consulted Uworld.
consensus is:
1st step:chronic endothelial cell injury (due to hyperlipidemia{LDL cholesterol oxidation?}, hypertension, smoking or diabetes)
2nd step: endothelial cell dysfunction (increases premeability, leukocyte adhesion, LDL and cholesterol leakage etc)
3rd step: smooth muscle emigration from media to intima + macrophage activation
4th step: smooth muscle cells + macrophages engulf lipids
etc etc

so your prof and robbins told you chronic endothelial injury and you picked endothelial dysfunction?
anyway, the stupid way RX has worded the question, endothelial dysfunction is the wrong choice and LDL cholesterol oxidation implies the 1st step I would assume. but I guess RX isnt perfect.

good luck to you too!
 
1st step:chronic endothelial cell injury (due to hyperlipidemia{LDL cholesterol oxidation?}, hypertension, smoking or diabetes)
2nd step: endothelial cell dysfunction (increases premeability, leukocyte adhesion, LDL and cholesterol leakage etc)
...

Good summary of Robbins, bbydoc.

However, hyperlipidemia that's mentioned in the first step is not LDL oxidation. It's the direct damaging effect of lipids on the endothelium ('chemical irritation'). Essentially, first and second step is the same thing: Due to the chronic 'irritation' (damage/dysfunction) of endothelium, cytokines are released from endothelium. One of the key effects of cytokine is recruitment of monocytes to the intima of arteries. These monocytes transform into macrophages and macrophages themselves also secrete cytokines. Due to the effect of cytokines secreted by both endothelium and macrophages, LDL enters into intima and becomes oxidized. These oxidized LDL molecules are taken up by macrophages through their scavenger receptors, like you've mentioned in the other posts.

Here's an illustration from Robbins which I think clears this up:

107.jpg


Good luck in studying my friend.
 
Good summary of Robbins, bbydoc.

However, hyperlipidemia that's mentioned in the first step is not LDL oxidation. It's the direct damaging effect of lipids on the endothelium ('chemical irritation'). Essentially, first and second step is the same thing: Due to the chronic 'irritation' (damage/dysfunction) of endothelium, cytokines are released from endothelium. One of the key effects of cytokine is recruitment of monocytes to the intima of arteries. These monocytes transform into macrophages and macrophages themselves also secrete cytokines. Due to the effect of cytokines secreted by both endothelium and macrophages, LDL enters into intima and becomes oxidized. These oxidized LDL molecules are taken up by macrophages through their scavenger receptors, like you've mentioned in the other posts.

Here's an illustration from Robbins which I think clears this up:

107.jpg


Good luck in studying my friend.

Thank you! That is a beautiful picture and easy to understand.
 
Good summary of Robbins, bbydoc.

However, hyperlipidemia that's mentioned in the first step is not LDL oxidation. It's the direct damaging effect of lipids on the endothelium ('chemical irritation'). Essentially, first and second step is the same thing: Due to the chronic 'irritation' (damage/dysfunction) of endothelium, cytokines are released from endothelium. One of the key effects of cytokine is recruitment of monocytes to the intima of arteries. These monocytes transform into macrophages and macrophages themselves also secrete cytokines. Due to the effect of cytokines secreted by both endothelium and macrophages, LDL enters into intima and becomes oxidized. These oxidized LDL molecules are taken up by macrophages through their scavenger receptors, like you've mentioned in the other posts.

Here's an illustration from Robbins which I think clears this up:

107.jpg


Good luck in studying my friend.

Not to beat this thing to death, but LDL ox. does lead to endothelial cell dysfunction/injury, which is implied in this figure from robbins (i.e. hyperlipidemia-->endothelial cell injury/dysfunction), and further elucidated in the accompanying text.

It is easy to misinterpret the order of the events as indicated in the figure, which is why reading the text is informative, and clears all ambiguity.

Excerpt, pg 500 Robbins 8th Edition:

"With chronic hyperlipidemia, lipoproteins accumulate in the intima. These lipids are oxidized through the action of oxygen free radicals locally generated by macrophages or endothelial cells. Oxidized LDL is ingeseted by macrophages through a scavenger receptor, distinct from the LDL receptor, and accumulates in phagocytes, which are then called foam cells. In addition, oxidized LDL stimulates the release of growth factors, cytokines, and chemokines by endothelial cells and macrophages that increase monocyte recruitment into lesions. Finally, oxidized LDL is cytotoxic to endothelial cells and smooth muscle cells and can induce endothelial cell dysfunction"

So, indeed, in the presence of hyperlipidemia, LDL ox does cause endothelial cell dysfunction and should thus be accounted for as a prior rather than subsequent event (although it occurs throughout the condition). Some of the confusion may lie in the fact that Robbins also states that hyperlipidemia can "impair endothelial function" by increasing local oxygen free radical production, but that this is more frequently seen in hypercholesterolemia, and doesn't impart frank cellular injury or dysfunction such as is seen with LDL oxidation.

Hope this helps.
 
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Not to beat this thing to death

Hey, what are med students if not obsessive 🙂 If grown men (and women) have a whole thread about which pens to use for highlighting, we can...divulge into the secrets of atherosclerosis a little further.

LDL ox does cause endothelial cell dysfunction and should thus be accounted for as a prior rather than subsequent event (although it occurs throughout the condition).

Sure, oxLDL can cause endothelial dysfunction. But so do foam cells. Can you say that because foam cells cause endothelial dysfunction, they precede the formation of fatty streak?

Even after reading the paragraph you've quoted above, I'm still not convinced the text is implying that oxLDL is an initiating factor like hypertension. If oxLDL is an initiating factor, then through what mechanisms is it produced outside the blood vessel, before the induction of endothelial damage?

To put it simply: Is there a situation where there's a normal blood vessel with a normal endothelium and it's damaged by oxLDL? I don't think so. The way I know it, a plethora of different factors initiate endothelial dysfunction, which has 2 major consequances: 1) Monocyte > Macrophage > Foam cell formation 2) LDL > oxLDL formation. Foam cells and oxLDL further cause damage on endothelium, so if I were to depict an illustration of it, there would be a triangle between endothelial dysfunction, foam cell formation and oxLDL.

Some of the confusion may lie in the fact that Robbins also states that hyperlipidemia can "impair endothelial function" by increasing local oxygen free radical production, but that this is more frequently seen in hypercholesterolemia, and doesn't impart frank cellular injury or dysfunction such as is seen with LDL oxidation.

It's not surprising, as LDL levels correlate strongly with the risk of atherosclerotic events like MI and stroke. It's also expected that if oxLDL is present (which would also imply that foam cells are present as well), there would be further endothelial damage.

If you have any further information, please do post it. This is an excellent way of reviewing things 🙂

No horses were beaten during the production of this thread.
 
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