Attending physician told me I am too old

[greentea101]

I was told my a attending physician that I am too old to become a physician and that I will struggle in medical school because I am older.

I was told that since I am older, I should choose something easier like PA, NP or pharmacy. And that financially its not a good choice.

Basically was told that since I am older (and possibly because I am a female) that med school is not feasible/attainable or practical.

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[postbaccnontrad]

How old are you? Are you already in med school?

 

[Osteosaur]

Started med school in my late 20s. Was told the same thing and that it might be tiring in my 30s if I waited too long.

Ultimately it's your life. I do think you need to look at the 8+ years of med school, residency, and getting in and how it fits with your broader life plans. Will it pay off financially? Will you miss out on your kids being cute instead of moody? Those are things to consider. There is more to life than a job.

 

[deleted480308]

Externally:
“Appreciate you looking out for me doc, I’ll certainly consider that.”

Internally:
*after actually considering the points for some truth like reduced financial return on investment and life situation with family
“Unless you happen to sit on every med school admissions committee in the nation, eeeeeffffff that noise. I do what I want”

 

[greentea101]

Since I am not married/in a relationship or have children, I'm not going to be missing out on things.

And if I don't go to med school, it doesn't mean that I will get married/ be in a relationship or have children and be happy. I might not ever find a life partner or have children. So I feel like that argument is weak unless you are currently in that situation before going to med school.

The doc told me there is too much studying in med school, around 14 hours a day which in all honesty sounds like someone who is spoilt. Some people work that much on minimum wage, no intellectually stimulating work, no recognition, no respect etc. And that intense studying is temporary.

 

[Osteosaur]

And if I don't go to med school, it doesn't mean that I will get married/ be in a relationship or have children and be happy. I might not ever find a life partner or have children. So I feel like that argument is weak unless you are currently in that situation before going to med school.

Its not really a "weak argument." The fact is that if you ARE interested in those things you will have less time to both pursue relationships or nurture a family during these years. Its quite possible you will never find one if you don't go into medicine, too, but you can't sit here and tell me it won't take a toll on your personal life when you haven't even been to medical school. Being in the hospital 12 hours a day and having to come home and study for 1-2 more is draining. You can theorize all you want but you haven't lived it.

Its a personal choice. If you want this more than anything, do it! Its just worth considering your quality of life during those years. Sleeping in scrubs and living like an animal in a surgery call room might not be how you want to spend your mid-forties.

 

[djiboutiman]

Since I am not married/in a relationship or have children, I'm not going to be missing out on things.

And if I don't go to med school, it doesn't mean that I will get married/ be in a relationship or have children and be happy. I might not ever find a life partner or have children. So I feel like that argument is weak unless you are currently in that situation before going to med school.

The doc told me there is too much studying in med school, around 14 hours a day which in all honesty sounds like someone who is spoilt. Some people work that much on minimum wage, no intellectually stimulating work, no recognition, no respect etc. And that intense studying is temporary.

If you want to become a physician then do it. NP/PA are good routes for some people, but aren’t exactly the same careers. Also don’t listen to just 1 physician, he might have different priorities in life.

 

[deleted480308]

Since I am not married/in a relationship or have children, I'm not going to be missing out on things.

And if I don't go to med school, it doesn't mean that I will get married/ be in a relationship or have children and be happy. I might not ever find a life partner or have children. So I feel like that argument is weak unless you are currently in that situation before going to med school.

The doc told me there is too much studying in med school, around 14 hours a day which in all honesty sounds like someone who is spoilt. Some people work that much on minimum wage, no intellectually stimulating work, no recognition, no respect etc. And that intense studying is temporary.

If you think that the 14hr study days are stimulating or that there is recognition and respect during medical school you may be disappointed

do what you want but be pretty honest about the pros/cons

 

[GreenDuck12]

I was told my a attending physician that I am too old to become a physician and that I will struggle in medical school because I am older.

I was told that since I am older, I should choose something easier like PA, NP or pharmacy. And that financially its not a good choice.

Basically was told that since I am older (and possibly because I am a female) that med school is not feasible/attainable or practical.

Some doctors legitimately believe that if you start medical school after your mid 20s you are too old to do it. However, students older than that continue to matriculate to medical schools each and every year (myself included). Some program directors believe that starting some residency programs by late 20s/early 30s is too late since the work is too challenging. However, residents older than that continue to match into the residencies every year.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Thank the doctor for giving you thoughtful advice. And move on with becoming a doctor if it is what you want to do. Remember, just because a particular doctor or doctors can't imagine doing something when they are older, doesn't mean it isn't possible. As an aside, after the first few weeks of medical school, I think being older when starting this is going to be a huge asset.

 

[M&L]

1) i am 34 (started medical school at 33), now starting M2. So i know EXACTLY what you are talking about.

2) i was told the same thing by random ppl. Then i read somewhere: "you are gonna be 40 years old anyway. Would you rather be a 40 year old doctor, or 40 year old something else?". Read it several times for it to sink it. It is so true, you know? I am single, no kids. Live alone with my cat and my dog. So i was thinking: "i need to focus on ME. what do i want? I want to be a doctor. so, forget what everyone else says. it is MY life, and it is up to me to decide what to do with it.".

3) i calculated a spread sheet with potential income, and debt, it is STILL worth it becoming a doctor, even if you dont become attending till 42 (which is my timeline).

4) i looked into egg freezing, - relatively inexpensive, and gives options for later.

5) as far as studying, - it will be hard regardless of how old you are, or how long you would have been out of school. But step will be pass/fail when you start, classes are all pass/fail. The only thing you have to worry about is step 2. That's it. and you just have to trust that if you are accepted, it means you are smart enough to be in medical school. I know how stressful it is to compare yourself to those who are younger, and think that you are, somehow, less worthy or less capable because of the age. but it is not true.

6) so i realized recently that actually while you are in medical school, age is sort of an advantage. I noticed that patients trust me more, for example, because i look a bit older i think, and overall, i dont sweat some things that stress out some of my younger classmates. So, before i started medical school, i felt like age was a negative factor. Now i see it as a positive actually. So, once you get in, i think this will go away.

btw... i am by far not the oldest person in my class.

 

[operaman]

I would argue it depends heavily on your actual age combined with your actual goals.

If you’re 30 and want to be a surgeon, then so long as you’re physically up to some sleepless years you should be fine and you’ll come out of it 40 and a surgeon. You’ll have a job you presumably like and make a good living.

If you’re 30 and want to be a primary care doc, it may still be worth it but it gets harder to justify so many extra years when you could go PA or NP and make similar money doing basically the same job. If you’re 40+ and want primary care the math gets even trickier. Just make sure to think carefully about your personal goals and what your day to day will actually look like in the end.

I didn’t struggle in Med school but the physical toll of residency was harder than it would have been on me a decade earlier. I just don’t bounce back from 30 hours with no sleep like I did when I was 26. Its doable though; just make sure you consider these things when choosing a residency program. The q3 home call but not really home call program may not be the best choice if you don’t bounce back quickly, so maybe opt for the q8-10 program instead.

 

[Osminog]

Since I am not married/in a relationship or have children, I'm not going to be missing out on things.

And if I don't go to med school, it doesn't mean that I will get married/ be in a relationship or have children and be happy. I might not ever find a life partner or have children. So I feel like that argument is weak unless you are currently in that situation before going to med school.

Studying all the time, having constant exams/practicals, and becoming a debt slave would make starting a successful relationship substantially more difficult. While there’s no guarantee you’d be romantically successful if you abandoned the medical school path, going to medical school would serve as a massive new obstacle in that pursuit.

In general, single women in their 30s or late 20s who really value finding a long-term partner and starting a family, might be better-suited for the PA or NP route. Due to the flagrant sexism of Mother Nature, the deadline for having biological children is different for men and women.

 

[M&L]

so i have always a little bit resented a notion that a single woman HAS to consider family as a possibility while choosing a career, while single guys do not. I think a woman, - BECAUSE SHE IS A HUMAN BEING: ))) - should chose a career she really loves, which will fulfill her professionally. Everything else will come along. If the women is married or in a long term serious relationship, - of course there are a lot of other considerations. But a single woman, - do YOU. Also, - women in their 30s can be doctors too. I know female surgeons with 3 kids (and amazing husbands). I also know doctors who, after residency, went into private practice and work 3 days a week (yes, they make less money, - still a lot though), but they effectively stay at home with kids otherwise. Also a great option.

BTW egg freezing is relatively cheap, and safe. we had a training on that from medical provider perspective. Fascinating.

 

[greentea101]

Studying all the time, having constant exams/practicals, and becoming a debt slave would make starting a successful relationship substantially more difficult. While there’s no guarantee you’d be romantically successful if you abandoned the medical school path, going to medical school would serve as a massive new obstacle in that pursuit.

In general, single women in their 30s or late 20s who really value finding a long-term partner and starting a family, might be better-suited for the PA or NP route. Due to the flagrant sexism of Mother Nature, the deadline for having biological children is different for men and women.

Woman in there early 20s can have massive difficulty with fertility just as much as a woman over 35, although the probability of conceiving is lower as you get older. My cousin was 22 when she married, tried having a child naturally for 4 years, tried IVF nearly 10 times before she had a child. I also have another cousin who had her first child naturally at age 37. Having a child because you're getting old is a poor reason to have a child.

It is sexist to say that a woman in her 30s or late 20s who really values a long term partner a children would be better suited to PA/NP. Why should a woman abandon her desires/ambition/career choice in order to have a partner or children?

In the 21st century I would've thought humans had evolved to not have such archaic views.

 

[Osminog]

Woman in there early 20s can have massive difficulty with fertility just as much as a woman over 35, although the probability of conceiving is lower as you get older. My cousin was 22 when she married, tried having a child naturally for 4 years, tried IVF nearly 10 times before she had a child. I also have another cousin who had her first child naturally at age 37. Having a child because you're getting old is a poor reason to have a child.

Anecdotes about your family members aside, fertility declines in women starting in their 30s, on average. Older women are more likely to have fertility issues and are more likely to give birth to children with genetic disorders and abnormalities. For a woman who wants to have children, it is usually better to find a suitable partner sooner rather than later.

I never said someone should have children “because they’re getting old.” People should have children because they want to.

It is sexist to say that a woman in her 30s or late 20s who really values a long term partner a children would be better suited to PA/NP. Why should a woman abandon her desires/ambition/career choice in order to have a partner or children?

In the 21st century I would've thought humans had evolved to not have such archaic views.

Life comes with trade-offs. We have to prioritize what we value most when deciding what to do with the limited amount of time we have.

I’m not saying women ought to prioritize family over work. But if an older single woman wants to find a suitable partner and have children, she may want to boost her odds by making sacrifices in other aspects of her life.

BTW egg freezing is relatively cheap, and safe. we had a training on that from medical provider perspective. Fascinating.

It’s not cheap at all, and given the low viability of frozen eggs as compared to fresh ones, it’s not a guarantee that you’ll be able to become pregnant. It’s an imperfect technology with mixed results, and it serves as a last resort.

 

[greentea101]

I’m not saying women ought to prioritize family over work. I know some women who claim to be perfectly content with living as long-term single cat ladies, and that’s well and good. But if an older single woman wants to find a suitable partner and have children, she may want to boost her odds by making sacrifices in other aspects of her life.

Thats a bit of a snarky view on single women, 'long-term single cat ladies'?

I do believe that life always involve sacrifices but not pursuing your career choice because you want to get married and have children if you're not already in a serious relationship makes no sense to me. There are many people who work in careers that are not nearly as demanding as medicine and they still don't find a partner, or have children. Your career choice doesn't dictate your success in love, marriage or having children.

 

[M&L]

Anecdotes about your family members aside, fertility declines in women starting in their 30s, on average. Older women are more likely to have fertility issues and are more likely to give birth to children with genetic disorders and abnormalities. For a woman who wants to have children, it is usually better to find a suitable partner sooner rather than later.

I never said someone should have children “because they’re getting old.” People should have children because they want t



Life comes with trade-offs. We have to prioritize what we value most when deciding what to do with the limited amount of time we have.

I’m not saying women ought to prioritize family over work. I know some women who claim to be perfectly content with living as long-term single cat ladies, and that’s well and good. But if an older single woman wants to find a suitable partner and have children, she may want to boost her odds by making sacrifices in other aspects of her life.




It’s not cheap at all, and given the low viability of frozen eggs as compared to fresh ones, it’s not a guarantee that you’ll be able to become pregnant. It’s an imperfect technology with mixed results, and it serves as a last resort.

One “harvest” costs approximately 10K. For those under 35 one is statistically enough . Those who are older might need to do another one . Considering how much physicians make , this is relatively inexpensive . We had a big seminar on that in OB where fellow who specializes in that gave us all the facts and statistics. Times are changing and women more and more use it as a pretty standard thing vs last resort . When they fertilize the eggs, they check for abnormalities as well .

 

[M&L]

Also - I’ve always believed that ppl should not get married because they want to have kids. Ppl should get married because they WANT to be MARRIED. And have children because they want to have children .

 

[YoungDrummer]

That is just one opinion. It also depends on what your health is like.

I mean you could be a physician assistant in neurosurgery with grueling hours, but if your not in good health that would be even harder on you.

 

[Dave1980]

I was told my a attending physician that I am too old to become a physician and that I will struggle in medical school because I am older.

I was told that since I am older, I should choose something easier like PA, NP or pharmacy. And that financially its not a good choice.

Basically was told that since I am older (and possibly because I am a female) that med school is not feasible/attainable or practical.

Well how old are you? At some point you will objectively be too old. I think all people would agree that 95 is too old and almost all people would agree that 50 is too old. Under that it is a grey area and everyone will have their own opinion.

I personally think that starting after the age of 33 is too old because if you start after that you will be in your 40's and still be a resident.

 

[M&L]

Well how old are you? At some point you will objectively be too old. I think all people would agree that 95 is too old and almost all people would agree that 50 is too old. Under that it is a grey area and everyone will have their own opinion.

I personally think that starting after the age of 33 is too old because if you start after that you will be in your 40's and still be a resident.

I started at 33 and i personally do not feel like it is too old. It also depends on the specialty. I have friends who started even later.

 

[Dr Tapatio]

so i have always a little bit resented a notion that a single woman HAS to consider family as a possibility while choosing a career, while single guys do not. I think a woman, - BECAUSE SHE IS A HUMAN BEING: ))) - should chose a career she really loves, which will fulfill her professionally. Everything else will come along. If the women is married or in a long term serious relationship, - of course there are a lot of other considerations. But a single woman, - do YOU. Also, - women in their 30s can be doctors too. I know female surgeons with 3 kids (and amazing husbands). I also know doctors who, after residency, went into private practice and work 3 days a week (yes, they make less money, - still a lot though), but they effectively stay at home with kids otherwise. Also a great option.

BTW egg freezing is relatively cheap, and safe. we had a training on that from medical provider perspective. Fascinating.

I have to disagree. You need to evaluate what you value in life. Personally, I value more family, friends, time, etc. over some "career." You can freeze your eggs all you want, but it's a pipe dream. There's no 45+ year old guy eager to IVF an old woman and raise a kid. You can be selfish and be a single mom, but you are hurting your kid. If a woman chooses medicine in her late 20s or 30s, she has decided that a job is more important than anything else, which to me seems very sad but to each their own.

You can't be a surgeon and be a real mom. At that point you're just having kids to check off an ego box, but hey, America has taught Millennials and Gen Xers that's it's "me me me" above all else.

If you're working 3 days a week, you took that seat from someone that actually could have had an impact on more lives for selfish reasons

 

[M&L]

I have to disagree. You need to evaluate what you value in life. Personally, I value more family, friends, time, etc. over some "career." You can freeze your eggs all you want, but it's a pipe dream. There's no 45+ year old guy eager to IVF an old woman and raise a kid. You can be selfish and be a single mom, but you are hurting your kid. If a woman chooses medicine in her late 20s or 30s, she has decided that a job is more important than anything else, which to me seems very sad but to each their own.

You can't be a surgeon and be a real mom. At that point you're just having kids to check off an ego box, but hey, America has taught Millennials and Gen Xers that's it's "me me me" above all else.

If you're working 3 days a week, you took that seat from someone that actually could have had an impact on more lives for selfish reasons

wow, i cant believe you actually said all this. This is so insensitive on so many levels. "guy eager to IVF an old woman and raise a kid". "Be selfish and be a single mom, but you are hurting your kid", "she has decided that a job is more important than anything else". "You cant be a surgeon and be a real mom".... Honestly, i am shocked.

 

[Dochopeful13]

I have to disagree. You need to evaluate what you value in life. Personally, I value more family, friends, time, etc. over some "career." You can freeze your eggs all you want, but it's a pipe dream. There's no 45+ year old guy eager to IVF an old woman and raise a kid. You can be selfish and be a single mom, but you are hurting your kid. If a woman chooses medicine in her late 20s or 30s, she has decided that a job is more important than anything else, which to me seems very sad but to each their own.

You can't be a surgeon and be a real mom. At that point you're just having kids to check off an ego box, but hey, America has taught Millennials and Gen Xers that's it's "me me me" above all else.

If you're working 3 days a week, you took that seat from someone that actually could have had an impact on more lives for selfish reasons

Lmao wow this is a bad look bro

 

[DocJanItor]

I'm an M4 and I'll be 40 when I graduate. I have a wife and kids and (fingers crossed) I'll be going into radiology. There are a lot of aspects of age that help with being in med school, one being maturity and another being experience outside of school and medicine. While I'm in relatively good shape and I haven't lost much of my edge since my 20s, as the song goes, I ain't as good as I once was (maybe 95%).

I met my wife right before I started working towards med school and I'll always be thankful for that. Dating in medical school and even more so in residency is difficult due to the time constraints, stress, and commitment. We had our first in M1 and that was honestly the perfect time. Once M3 came around I was gone more than I was around, and much of the other time I had to study.

America has taught Millennials and Gen Xers that's it's "me me me" above all else.

If you're working 3 days a week, you took that seat from someone that actually could have had an impact on more lives for selfish reasons

This is a ridiculous argument. While I don't entirely disagree that it's hard to be a good surgeon and a good parent because both are so demanding, the idea that someone "took a spot" from someone else is silly. Although doctors have an obligation to treat each one of us carves out the balance we feel is appropriate. You're only working 5 days a week? You could've treated more on the 6th. Office hours are only 8-4? Why not longer? It's not our job to work all the time.

Thats a bit of a snarky view on single women, 'long-term single cat ladies'?

I do believe that life always involve sacrifices but not pursuing your career choice because you want to get married and have children if you're not already in a serious relationship makes no sense to me. There are many people who work in careers that are not nearly as demanding as medicine and they still don't find a partner, or have children. Your career choice doesn't dictate your success in love, marriage or having children.

I'll say this: at a certain point, a person is too old to go to med school. The demands, the finances, the value; all of them eventually tip the scales in the other direction. There are people on this board who are in their late 40s and 50s entering med school and I think it's ridiculous, but I'm not an ADCOM and it's just my opinion.

As a parent in med school you will make sacrifices that other parents don't have to make. I'm lucky enough that I have family whom I can rely on to raise my kids in the way I would but many people don't have that. Personally, if I had to have daycare to raise my children then I would have difficulty justifying the choice to have kids. While there are things that only I can teach my kids, they're not yet old enough to learn those lessons.

Lastly, people are bastard coated bastards with bastard filling. If someone sounds like an idiot then they probably are. Ignore them and make the best decision for yourself and if you screw that up then you have the confidence of knowing that it was your own choice.

 

[greentea101]

I have to disagree. You need to evaluate what you value in life. Personally, I value more family, friends, time, etc. over some "career." You can freeze your eggs all you want, but it's a pipe dream. There's no 45+ year old guy eager to IVF an old woman and raise a kid. You can be selfish and be a single mom, but you are hurting your kid. If a woman chooses medicine in her late 20s or 30s, she has decided that a job is more important than anything else, which to me seems very sad but to each their own.

You can't be a surgeon and be a real mom. At that point you're just having kids to check off an ego box, but hey, America has taught Millennials and Gen Xers that's it's "me me me" above all else.

If you're working 3 days a week, you took that seat from someone that actually could have had an impact on more lives for selfish reasons

Woah dude. Thats some blatant sexism. 'You can't be a surgeon and be a real mom', who taught you this garbage?

Some people get through medical school and don't practice, they go into consulting or completely unrelated industries. I know a few people who went to medical school and then didn't complete residency and never practiced (FYI they were traditional students). I also know people who completed one or two years and then left because it was too much/not what they expected. So working 3 days a week is not a wasted seat by any means. With burn out so high among physicians it might be a smarter idea, thereby prolonging the number of years someone practices medicine.

How do people like you get into med school? I thought the whole point of the rigorous admissions process is to NOT have such sexist and bigots in the profession.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Well, this thread took a disturbing turn:
- Can’t be a surgeon and a real mom?
- IVF at 45?
- Working 3 days a week is taking a seat from someone else?

These statements are sexist. Full stop. They are not useful nor warranted. This career path is hard enough without us tearing each other down with tired stereotypes and gender roles.

 

[DO2015CA]

Ignore the ridiculous sexist comments that are unneeded but help us give you more objective advice. How old are you? It’s really going to depend on that. Eventually the trade off isn’t worth it. And my opinion is completely devoid of opinion of reproductive years. It’s financial, energy, and feasibility. It’s a cost-benefit scale that tips somewhere along the way to not worth it.

 

[deleted721052]

wow, the amount of sexism here is unreal.
btw, i don't know who ever said that you can't find a partner with ''Studying all the time, having constant exams/practicals, and becoming a debt slave'' but it's not harder than working 60hours a week as an accountant/lawyer in a well-known firm or working 40hours a week with 2h of commute for a 30k/yearly salary when you have 120k in undergrad debt for a degree that doesn't give you a job. People do all short of things in med school; research, having kids, parties, sport competition, suck up attending arses.... you have time for whatever you priorise in med school/residency/life in general in the end.

You will find a life partner if it's a priority for you and you're lucky enough. In the end, if you fall in love with someone and they fall in love with you, it will be because of who you are as a person and those things like schedule/salary/reasonable debts that will be paid back aren't as important. if you're career is important, you should probably look for someone with the same view on life anyway.

OP, go get this MD/DO! and go get this supportive wife/husband/dog/kids or not if you want! 🙂

(i did dental school so i know what's buzy is as well; i was spending 7am to 8-9-10pm everyday at school and studying all weekend and still meet plenty of dudes and my long term partner during that time while doing international level sport competition, research, publication, etc. and i sleep 8h a night. 😉 )

 

[Dr Tapatio]

wow, i cant believe you actually said all this. This is so insensitive on so many levels.

Right

"guy eager to IVF an old woman and raise a kid".

Yup, it's my fault that men like younger women and older women typically are SOL

"Be selfish and be a single mom, but you are hurting your kid"

Yup, it's my fault that all research shows kids with single moms do worse and are more likely to commit crime and have psychiatric issues

"she has decided that a job is more important than anything else".

Yup, again my fault that biology dictates when a woman can reproduce and over 35 there is increased chance of a trisomy, and yup, my fault that she is choosing a career that will for sure end those chances to have a kid at a health age

"You cant be a surgeon and be a real mom".... Honestly, i am shocked.

Yup, my fault research shows that children need their mother more in formative years and that surgeons are overworked

Working 3 days a week is taking a seat from someone else?

Yup, my fault there is a physician shortage and someone else could have met that shortage better than Dr. Soccer Mom

Seems a lot of you guys allowed your sociology professor to override your knowledge of basic bio

 

[GreenDuck12]

Right

Yup, it's my fault that men like younger women and older women typically are SOL


Yup, it's my fault that all research shows kids with single moms do worse and are more likely to commit crime and have psychiatric issues


Yup, again my fault that biology dictates when a woman can reproduce and over 35 there is increased chance of a trisomy, and yup, my fault that she is choosing a career that will for sure end those chances to have a kid at a health age


Yup, my fault research shows that children need their mother more in formative years and that surgeons are overworked


Yup, my fault there is a physician shortage and someone else could have met that shortage better than Dr. Soccer Mom

Seems a lot of you guys allowed your sociology professor to override your knowledge of basic bio

I think you’re out of your element. It’s ok to acknowledge the limits of your existing mindsets and biases instead of digging in. I would definitely encourage you to do more learning and reflecting on this - you have a ways to go.

 

[Dr Tapatio]

I think you’re out of your element. It’s ok to acknowledge the limits of your existing mindsets and biases instead of digging in. I would definitely encourage you to do more learning and reflecting on this - you have a ways to go.

Sure, kiddo. I'll make sure to just parrot what people want to hear like Oprah does and call myself "enlightened" because unlike every other generation, this one is the truly enlightened one

Note how all the counterarguments are "you're sexist!" and not "here is the evidence that men like older women. here's the evidence that children of single moms do well. Here's the evidence that there's no physician shortage, so it's a-okay to be Dr. Soccer Mom, etc."

 

[M&L]

Sure, kiddo. I'll make sure to just parrot what people want to hear like Oprah does and call myself "enlightened" because unlike every other generation, this one is the truly enlightened one

Note how all the counterarguments are "you're sexist!" and not "here is the evidence that men like older women. here's the evidence that children of single moms do well. Here's the evidence that there's no physician shortage, so it's a-okay to be Dr. Soccer Mom, etc."

Children of Single Mothers: How Do They Really Fare?

Why don't children in two-parent households do far better than those in single-parent households?

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[GreenDuck12]

Sure, kiddo. I'll make sure to just parrot what people want to hear like Oprah does and call myself "enlightened" because unlike every other generation, this one is the truly enlightened one

Note how all the counterarguments are "you're sexist!" and not "here is the evidence that men like older women. here's the evidence that children of single moms do well. Here's the evidence that there's no physician shortage, so it's a-okay to be Dr. Soccer Mom, etc."

Kiddo? Now, I appreciate the attempt at condescension but you have to know, my former high school students brought more heat than that. nonetheless, I do encourage you to continue to learn as medicine, as a field, is undergoing significant shifts as the number of new physicians has been and continues to be more female. Your existing mindsets, as demonstrated here, are likely to be a liability for your career in the future.

 

[greentea101]

Sure, kiddo. I'll make sure to just parrot what people want to hear like Oprah does and call myself "enlightened" because unlike every other generation, this one is the truly enlightened one

Note how all the counterarguments are "you're sexist!" and not "here is the evidence that men like older women. here's the evidence that children of single moms do well. Here's the evidence that there's no physician shortage, so it's a-okay to be Dr. Soccer Mom, etc."

It does not matter what men like. All that matters is that two people love, respect, support and care for each other. Mature adults don't reject people based on arbitrary things like age, weight, looks etc. Women do not exist to please/serve or entertain men.

Male physicians choose to work less hours sometimes, or work part time, or leave the field all together due to burn out, unmet expectations etc. And I wouldn't call them derogatory names or judge them for the decisions they made like you have done by calling such woman 'Dr Soccer Mom'. It is actually a good thing, since these people are aware of their limitations.

It is quite shocking that you deal with people at some of the most vulnerable moments in their lives.

 

[greentea101]

Yup, it's my fault that all research shows kids with single moms do worse and are more likely to commit crime and have psychiatric issues

How did you come to this conclusion?

FYI having a psychiatric issue shouldn't be a taboo issue, many of your colleagues likely have diagnosed or undiagnosed psychiatric issues.

Studies have shown that physicians have some of the highest rates of suicide, so should people stop becoming doctors?

If you are aware of injustice/inequality then surely your job (especially as a physician and a person of power) is to bring those to light and help eradicate them.

 

[DocJanItor]

Sure, kiddo. I'll make sure to just parrot what people want to hear like Oprah does and call myself "enlightened" because unlike every other generation, this one is the truly enlightened one

Note how all the counterarguments are "you're sexist!" and not "here is the evidence that men like older women. here's the evidence that children of single moms do well. Here's the evidence that there's no physician shortage, so it's a-okay to be Dr. Soccer Mom, etc."

The physician shortage is a result of Congress's failure to increase residency spots. This has resulted in physicians choosing to be in urban areas over rural and specialties over primary care.

There is no other profession that I know of where we place the burden of need on the employees rather than the job market. Again, if you were so committed to improving the shortage, you'd work longer hours for lower pay.

 

[Meridian32]

You can't be a surgeon and be a real mom.

This ridiculous statement is disproved by the many amazing surgeon-mothers I know and is also not really supported by the data. For example, in 2018, Rangel and colleagues surveyed 347 general surgeons who were parents during general surgery residency (the most intense period of surgical training) and found that although it was difficult, a majority had no regrets and would do it again (Rangel et al., JAMA Surgery 2018):

 

[M&L]

Female physicians, on average, are far more likely to work part time than their male colleagues. After completing residency, almost 40% of female physicians work part time or leave medicine altogether, as compared to only 4% of male physicians. (This is based on information on the AAMC website, so if the statistics are sexist, take it up with them.) Based on this, we can conclude that female physicians, on average, contribute to the physician shortage to a much greater extent than male physicians do. One could probably do a calculation and come up with a rough estimate for the number of patient deaths and adverse outcomes that stem from the admission of an average female applicant over an equally qualified male applicant into a medical school class.

I am of course referring to group averages and their large-scale consequences. No doubt, there are female attendings who work at the hospital/clinic 80+ hours/week, and there are male attendings who abandon medicine and start food truck businesses. But let’s be factual about this subject and recognize the statistics for what they are.

so should women not go to medical school? should they not WANT to go to medical school, or should they not be accepted?

 

[NITRAS]

What’s the point of this thread again?

Did they OP ever say his/her age?

 

[Osminog]

so should women not go to medical school? should they not WANT to go to medical school, or should they not be accepted?

It’s a challenging ethical dilemma. On one hand, it’s unjust to evaluate individuals on the basis of average group qualities; there are female medical school applicants who would work full time and be excellent physicians, and it would be unfair for their career prospects to be harmed by the average profile of their demographic group. On the other hand, it’s unjust to make admission decisions that, cumulatively, serve to deprive vulnerable patients in high-need areas of adequate, timely medical care.

Ideally, this problem could be circumvented by expanding the number of US residency spots... but until that happens, the way forward is unclear.

 

[M&L]

What’s the point of this thread again?

Did they OP ever say his/her age?

at this point people are pushing arguments that women are responsible for greater number of pt deaths and adverse outcomes..... 🙂))

 

[greentea101]

One could probably do a calculation and come up with a rough estimate for the number of patient deaths and adverse outcomes that stem from the admission of an average female applicant over an equally qualified male applicant into a medical school class.

Well this is a truly sexist view. I assume you presume that an equally qualified female physician would have a higher rate of patient deaths vs a equally qualified male physician.

What’s the point of this thread again?

Did they OP ever say his/her age?

This has now turned into a 'female physicians are worse and the reason for physician shortages' thread.

I am 31 and I have 10 years of experience in the medical field (patient contact role). And while I have been working in this medical role I worked 6-7 days a week in underserved areas. I am without a doubt sure my male counterparts could not do what I did (especially with the extensive traveling I did). My main reason for wanting to be a physician is to do something more intellectually challenging and still have the patient contact. PhD would be a option but then there is no patient contact.

The physician I spoke to did seem jaded by his profession. He thought becoming a physician in your 30s does not financially pay off (without even knowing my financial situation) and that it would stall family life (again without knowing what my future plans are). I was surprised by the reaction since I know a lot of people that have gone back to school later on in life and most people seemed to think of age as a asset (life experience). Thats why I thought I would make the post to see what others views are.

 

[kraskadva]

I am 31 and I have 10 years of experience in the medical field (patient contact role). And while I have been working in this medical role I worked 6-7 days a week in underserved areas. I am without a doubt sure my male counterparts could not do what I did (especially with the extensive traveling I did). My main reason for wanting to be a physician is to do something more intellectually challenging and still have the patient contact. PhD would be a option but then there is no patient contact.

The physician I spoke to did seem jaded by his profession. He thought becoming a physician in your 30s does not financially pay off (without even knowing my financial situation) and that it would stall family life (again without knowing what my future plans are). I was surprised by the reaction since I know a lot of people that have gone back to school later on in life and most people seemed to think of age as a asset (life experience). Thats why I thought I would make the post to see what others views are.

Ignore him. He's a sexist

I'm a M4 and 35. One of my best friend in my class turned 40 last year. It's fine. Actually easier to balance all the stuff when you have real adult experiences under your belt and don't get so worked up about exams or clinical rotation hours like a lot of my younger classmates do. Perspective helps a lot.
So if you want it, just go do it and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

 

[GreenDuck12]

It’s a challenging ethical dilemma. On one hand, it’s unjust to evaluate individuals on the basis of average group qualities; there are female medical school applicants who would work full time and be excellent physicians, and it would be unfair for their career prospects to be harmed by the average profile of their demographic group. On the other hand, it’s unjust to make admission decisions that, cumulatively, serve to deprive vulnerable patients in high-need areas of adequate, timely medical care.

Ideally, this problem could be circumvented by expanding the number of US residency spots... but until that happens, the way forward is unclear.

This was a serious argument, right? Like, not a devils advocate argument but like a serious argument?

I’m asking because you used terms like “ethics” and “unjust” while in the same paragraph arguing female doctors who take time off are harming and depriving patients. Just the leaps that one has to go through to put that paragraph together is making my head spin...

 

[DO2015CA]

Well this is a truly sexist view. I assume you presume that an equally qualified female physician would have a higher rate of patient deaths vs a equally qualified male physician.




This has now turned into a 'female physicians are worse and the reason for physician shortages' thread.

I am 31 and I have 10 years of experience in the medical field (patient contact role). And while I have been working in this medical role I worked 6-7 days a week in underserved areas. I am without a doubt sure my male counterparts could not do what I did (especially with the extensive traveling I did). My main reason for wanting to be a physician is to do something more intellectually challenging and still have the patient contact. PhD would be a option but then there is no patient contact.

The physician I spoke to did seem jaded by his profession. He thought becoming a physician in your 30s does not financially pay off (without even knowing my financial situation) and that it would stall family life (again without knowing what my future plans are). I was surprised by the reaction since I know a lot of people that have gone back to school later on in life and most people seemed to think of age as a asset (life experience). Thats why I thought I would make the post to see what others views are.

If you are 31 then the attending you spoke of is stupid. The pay off shifts after 40

 

[Osteosaur]

I am 31

That's not old??? just go.

I was thinking like 40's from your post where you just wouldn't get the time in to make up the cost. And let's be honest, being talked down to like a child as an intern, and working maybe 10-15 years after 7 years of grueling training where you make no money would just be awful unless you wanted a career in medicine above all other things in life (be that a family, be that cool vacations, be that an hour in the morning where you sip coffee and listen to a podcast in peace).

There is a limited number of spots at medical schools, and limits on medical school class size are largely dictated by the limited number of residency spots available for medical school graduates. (You can’t accept 1,000+ people into your entering class unless you’re a for-profit offshore school that intends to weed out half of its matriculants.) An individual who takes one of the limited medical school spots and then ends up only working part time is contributing to the physician shortage; another person could have filled that medical school spot and ultimately worked full time, serving thousands more patients over the course of his career.

Female physicians, on average, are far more likely to work part time than their male colleagues. After completing residency, almost 40% of female physicians work part time or leave medicine altogether, as compared to only 4% of male physicians. (This is based on information on the AAMC website, so if the statistics are sexist, take it up with them.) Based on this, we can conclude that female physicians, on average, contribute to the physician shortage to a much greater extent than male physicians do. One could probably do a calculation and come up with a rough estimate for the number of patient deaths and adverse outcomes that stem from the admission of an average female applicant over an equally qualified male applicant into a medical school class.

I am of course referring to group averages and their large-scale consequences. No doubt, there are female attendings who work at the hospital/clinic 80+ hours/week, and there are male attendings who abandon medicine and start food truck businesses. But let’s be factual about this subject and recognize the statistics for what they are.

Invoking the physician shortage doesn't mean you, as a lowly M2, get to make sweeping proclamations about how people with medical degrees spend their lives, what patients they see, or how they are most productive.

 

[Meridian32]

One could probably do a calculation and come up with a rough estimate for the number of patient deaths and adverse outcomes that stem from the admission of an average female applicant over an equally qualified male applicant into a medical school class.

The data suggests that that number is likely to be zero or negative - in other words, patients treated by female physicians do not have worse outcomes, and may in fact have better outcomes, than those treated by male physicians. See Tsugawa et al., JAMA Internal Medicine 2017 - this analysis of Medicare data from 1.6 million hospital admissions of patients age 65 and older showed there was a modest but statistically significant benefit in 30 day mortality and readmission rate for patients treated by female compared to male internal medicine physicians (30 day mortality 11.07% vs. 11.49%, p < 0.001, and 30 day readmission rate 15.02% vs. 15.57%, p < 0.001), and that this finding remained true regardless of the primary admission diagnosis or severity of illness.

 

[NITRAS]

This has now turned into a 'female physicians are worse and the reason for physician shortages' thread.

I am 31 and I have 10 years of experience in the medical field (patient contact role). And while I have been working in this medical role I worked 6-7 days a week in underserved areas. I am without a doubt sure my male counterparts could not do what I did (especially with the extensive traveling I did). My main reason for wanting to be a physician is to do something more intellectually challenging and still have the patient contact. PhD would be a option but then there is no patient contact.

So, as long as you don’t got $500k in debt to get a $150k/year physician job, then you will have plenty of time for it to pay off. Consider medical a and residency/training is between 7-11 years, you start practicing at 40. That’s still a 20+ of working in one of the higher paid roles in the US. That’s plenty of time of work, live, and save for retirement. You have less room to screw up than someone who went right though, but that part should be fine.

The more debt you take on, the more income you have to make to make this worth it (and the less you can work less to spend more time with family).

There are costs more than finacial, but it’s not like lots of people don’t get married and have babies in this process either. You will likely spend less time with said spouse and/or babies while in medicine that many other fields. It’s ok to say no to medicine to more time with family. That is a values judgment on your part.

 

[operaman]

In defense of the surgery lifestyle, something I tell students of all genders is this:

If you want to be a surgeon and also have a great family life, you have to become a very good surgeon. If you take til 10pm to do cases that other surgeons finish by 4pm, then you’re going to have a hard time being at home very much. If you can bang those cases out even faster then you have even more time. I’ve seen big time free flap recon surgeons who typically finish cases between 9-11pm and others who finish those cases between 2-4pm. Want to guess which one is picking up their kids from school each day?

If you have a higher takeback rate for complications, you’re going to be home less than others.

The skill aspect is something not talked about much but is something I’ve seen make a massive difference. Of course there’s also specialty selection and practice design that impact QOL, but the basic skill issue is a major determinant that’s just hard to quantify or predict. Applies in clinic too - I had attendings in residency whose clinics always ran until 8-9pm and others who finished on time at 5pm after seeing 50-60 patients and had all their notes done too. Want to guess which one saw their family more?

So, if maximizing family time is important, seek out good training that prioritizes efficiency and has faculty who are modeling it. This is easy to ask about in interviews when the time comes.