AUC/Ross

[zobay]

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So I see lots of hate towards Carib schools, and they all have US creds, as well as the NY and Cali things that are needed. Students pass the USMLE with 93%+.
If you know your curriculum and work hard, you can't get screwed.

When Carib schools seem to be getting better, why is there still so much hate? It's like undergrad, no one really gives a damn where you go as long as you work hard and graduate.

I'm already an oddball, I was homeschooled for a long time, and I lived on a boat as a kid. I think I would thrive in the community.

So what's with the hate?


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[FCMike11]

It's really kinda mind-numbing how readily available this information about the carribbean "hate" is and here you are with your smug, misplaced self-confidence.

"you can't get screwed."
[emoji52]

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[zobay]

It's really kinda mind-numbing how readily available this information about the carribbean "hate" is and here you are with your smug, misplaced self-confidence.

"you can't get screwed."
[emoji52]

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I'm not smug nor is it misplaced. I went to an undergrad that was small, and they believed in self-created success. From there, I made everything work as I wanted it to, even if people looked at me and said "where even is that?"


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[drplzz]

I'm not smug nor is it misplaced. I went to an undergrad that was small, and they believed in self-created success. From there, I made everything work as I wanted it to, even if people looked at me and said "where even is that?"


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Your ignorance on the issue of Carriebean schools is interesting. But, you made everything work "as you wanted it to," so you worked to go to the Caribbean schools?
I think we have different definitions of self success.

 

[zobay]

Your ignorance on the issue of Carriebean schools is interesting. But, you made everything work "as you wanted it to," so you worked to go to the Caribbean schools?
I think we have different definitions of self success.

I'm still waiting on my DO choices, but that being said: I did not apply to USMD schools. I didn't want to be part of that. I want to take a less traditional approach to medicine. Do something that isn't as popular.


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[drplzz]

I'm still waiting on my DO choices, but that being said: I did not apply to USMD schools. I didn't want to be part of that. I want to take a less traditional approach to medicine. Do something that isn't as popular.


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Totally valid. Good luck with your DO schools. I think you need to research Caribbean schools a bit more, though. They're not getting better and it will only get worse with the merger. It is not a safety net and if you go there you risk obtaining an MD without the option of every practicing.

 

[zobay]

Totally valid. Good luck with your DO schools. I think you need to research Caribbean schools a bit more, though. They're not getting better and it will only get worse with the merger. It is not a safety net and if you go there you risk obtaining an MD without the option of every practicing.

Merger?


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[beeboops]

Merger?


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Yikes. I'm not here to insult you like some others on this forum would, but the fact that you are applying DO and considering Caribbean schools without being fully aware of the merger is kinda frightening.

Basically, DO graduates had the option of matching into ACGME (traditionally MD) residencies or their own DO residencies, so they had a bit of play in regards to their future options. MD graduates only apply and match into ACGME residencies.

However, as of 2020 (I believe), the DO and MD residencies will merge into one large residency system, if you will. Some people believe that this will decrease the number of residency spots available to IMGs (Caribbean school graduates) because DO students will no longer have their own residency program to match into and will be taking up spots in the merged match. Some other people believe that IMGs will be largely unaffected by the merger.

Sorry if this seems confusing. I'm no longer premed, so I've not been keeping up with the news, and I'm sure someone else could explain this more eloquently 😛 What you need to take away from this though is that you need to be aware that your chances of getting a residency could be significantly decreased if you choose to attend a Caribbean school. Without a residency, you won't be able to practice medicine, and you'll be left with a very expensive piece of paper.

 

[Marrowist]

Go easy on her guys. Joined yesterday, 14 posts, homeschooled on a boat... so much innocence... a few months on this forum and she will be quoting Goro in WAMC threads.

Or she will vanish forever into obscurity. Who knows.

 

[zobay]

Yikes. I'm not here to insult you like some others on this forum would, but the fact that you are applying DO and considering Caribbean schools without being fully aware of the merger is kinda frightening.

Basically, DO graduates had the option of matching into ACGME (traditionally MD) residencies or their own DO residencies, so they had a bit of play in regards to their future options. MD graduates only apply and match into ACGME residencies.

However, as of 2020 (I believe), the DO and MD residencies will merge into one large residency system, if you will. Some people believe that this will decrease the number of residency spots available to IMGs (Caribbean school graduates) because DO students will no longer have their own residency program to match into and will be taking up spots in the merged match. Some other people believe that IMGs will be largely unaffected by the merger.

Sorry if this seems confusing. I'm no longer premed, so I've not been keeping up with the news, and I'm sure someone else could explain this more eloquently 😛 What you need to take away from this though is that you need to be aware that your chances of getting a residency could be significantly decreased if you choose to attend a Caribbean school. Without a residency, you won't be able to practice medicine, and you'll be left with a very expensive piece of paper.

Thanks! I appreciate this. I'd heard rumors but didn't realize it was a thing.

Go easy on her guys. Joined yesterday, 14 posts, homeschooled on a boat... so much innocence... a few months on this forum and she will be quoting Goro in WAMC threads.

Or she will vanish forever into obscurity. Who knows.

Go easy, and all you're doing is continuing to insult me? This is ridiculous.


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[FCMike11]

I'm not smug nor is it misplaced. I went to an undergrad that was small, and they believed in self-created success. From there, I made everything work as I wanted it to, even if people looked at me and said "where even is that?"

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Yeah, I shouldn't have been so curt. I was tired and about to fall asleep.

But you are wrong. Sure, self-created success is real but, by going Carribbean you set yourself back immediately. Residency programs do care where you went to school. You have to be a very good applicant to ensure matching.

Lots of reasons to this. I was also annoyed you didnt seem to search the forums, at all. Because this has been discussed ad nauseum.

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[ScottTenorman54]

I'm still waiting on my DO choices, but that being said: I did not apply to USMD schools. I didn't want to be part of that. I want to take a less traditional approach to medicine. Do something that isn't as popular.


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Mind if I ask what "part of that" is supposed to mean? I'm not all offended and defensive or anything, just curious. DO schools have the exact same curriculum as MD, with the exception of one class.

 

[laricb]

Thanks! I appreciate this. I'd heard rumors but didn't realize it was a thing.



Go easy, and all you're doing is continuing to insult me? This is ridiculous.


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When you communicate on a DO Forum you need to have a thick skin.....

 

[zobay]

Mind if I ask what "part of that" is supposed to mean? I'm not all offended and defensive or anything, just curious. DO schools have the exact same curriculum as MD, with the exception of one class.

Yeah, so far, most of the MD students I've met think they're on top of the world. I have met very very few who are modest about what they've accomplished.


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[FCMike11]

Yeah, so far, most of the MD students I've met think they're on top of the world. I have met very very few who are modest about what they've accomplished.


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How many have you met?

Sounds more like attributes you assign to a certain type of person, not a MD or DO student across the board. I have a lot of friends who aren't that way.

If your stats aren't competitive, that may be a reason not to apply though.

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[Mad Jack]

So I see lots of hate towards Carib schools, and they all have US creds, as well as the NY and Cali things that are needed. Students pass the USMLE with 93%+.
If you know your curriculum and work hard, you can't get screwed.

When Carib schools seem to be getting better, why is there still so much hate? It's like undergrad, no one really gives a damn where you go as long as you work hard and graduate.

I'm already an oddball, I was homeschooled for a long time, and I lived on a boat as a kid. I think I would thrive in the community.

So what's with the hate?


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Passing the boards doesn't make you a practicing physician, obtaining a residency does. The majority of students that start at AUC and Ross either do not finish school or do not obtain a residency, and thus never become physicians. I don't hate on these schools at all- I wish we had enough residency positions to train every US student that graduates from them and passes their boards. However, that is not the reality. In the past, you could have obtained a residency much more easily, but there are far more US students graduating today than ten years ago, so matching is much more difficult.

 

[the argus]

The majority of students that start at AUC and Ross either do not finish school or do not obtain a residency, and thus never become physicians.

This is patently false. I graduated from Ross in 2014, and for my year 70% of those that started obtained a residency. ~25% were lost to attrition and ~5% graduated but didn't get a residency. 70% is greater than 50%, which means that a majority did in fact finish school and obtain a residency.

In the past, you could have obtained a residency much more easily, but there are far more US students graduating today than ten years ago, so matching is much more difficult.

Also patently false. Yes, there are more US grads today than 10 years ago. But the number of residency positions has also increased. You don't have to take my word on this one. Data from the ACGME clearly shows that roughly the same number of IMGs are starting residency now as were 10 years ago. This is projected to change over the next 8-10 years, but even then there will be plenty of residency positions for all US-IMG caribbean grads.

There's plenty of legitimate reasons for not going to a Caribbean medical school, but your points are just pure SDN fantasy.

go to page 79 in the most recent version
http://www.acgme.org/About-Us/Publi...Graduate-Medical-Education-Data-Resource-Book
NEJM article on projected residency positions into mid-2020s
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1511707#t=article

 

[zobay]

Passing the boards doesn't make you a practicing physician, obtaining a residency does. The majority of students that start at AUC and Ross either do not finish school or do not obtain a residency, and thus never become physicians. I don't hate on these schools at all- I wish we had enough residency positions to train every US student that graduates from them and passes their boards. However, that is not the reality. In the past, you could have obtained a residency much more easily, but there are far more US students graduating today than ten years ago, so matching is much more difficult.

I appreciate your thoughts. That's a frustrating world to be in when there's talk of a physician shortage, but many can't get residency.


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[Mad Jack]

This is patently false. I graduated from Ross in 2014, and for my year 70% of those that started obtained a residency. ~25% were lost to attrition and ~5% graduated but didn't get a residency. 70% is greater than 50%, which means that a majority did in fact finish school and obtain a residency.


Also patently false. Yes, there are more US grads today than 10 years ago. But the number of residency positions has also increased. You don't have to take my word on this one. Data from the ACGME clearly shows that roughly the same number of IMGs are starting residency now as were 10 years ago. This is projected to change over the next 8-10 years, but even then there will be plenty of residency positions for all US-IMG caribbean grads.

There's plenty of legitimate reasons for not going to a Caribbean medical school, but your points are just pure SDN fantasy.

go to page 79 in the most recent version
http://www.acgme.org/About-Us/Publi...Graduate-Medical-Education-Data-Resource-Book
NEJM article on projected residency positions into mid-2020s
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1511707#t=article

Last I saw, their actual 4-year graduation and placement rate was around 50%. 70% may make it, but in longer than 4 years. Though it's hard to say, because they don't make such figures publicly available.

As to residency positions, the number of applicants has slightly outpaced the growth of new programs being added.

Many of the programs that are newly accredited are also not new programs, they are osteopathic programs that are gaining ACGME recognition- a net zero gain for residency slots. Finally, many osteopathic programs are set to close in the coming years due to an inability to meet residency requirements. That'll be a net loss of positions that we'll be lucky to even make up for with position gain in 2017 and 2018, while applicants continue to climb. Finally, most of the new osteopathic schools have yet to graduate their first classes- there's been 13 schools opened that have yet to graduate their first classes (and will graduate them between 2017 and 2019) and 34 new schools that have been proposed to open before 2020. Positions aren't going to keep pace with that much growth, and op isn't matriculating in the near future, so that'll represent competition for her.

 

[the argus]

Last I saw, their actual 4-year graduation and placement rate was around 50%. 70% may make it, but in longer than 4 years. Though it's hard to say, because they don't make such figures publicly available.

As to residency positions, the number of applicants has slightly outpaced the growth of new programs being added.
View attachment 214000
Many of the programs that are newly accredited are also not new programs, they are osteopathic programs that are gaining ACGME recognition- a net zero gain for residency slots. Finally, many osteopathic programs are set to close in the coming years due to an inability to meet residency requirements. That'll be a net loss of positions that we'll be lucky to even make up for with position gain in 2017 and 2018, while applicants continue to climb. Finally, most of the new osteopathic schools have yet to graduate their first classes- there's been 13 schools opened that have yet to graduate their first classes (and will graduate them between 2017 and 2019) and 34 new schools that have been proposed to open before 2020. Positions aren't going to keep pace with that much growth, and op isn't matriculating in the near future, so that'll represent competition for her.

Thats a NRMP graph, not ACGME. It's giving an incomplete picture of total GME numbers.

If you look at the ACGME numbers (i.e. all allopathic residencies, not just those participating in the NRMP) you can clearly see that since 2005, between 6,700 and 7,200 IMGs have entered first year positions. In 2005 the number was 6,773, with a peak of 7,144 in 2009, and 6,693 in 2015. Your claim that it's much more difficult to match now than 10 years ago is just factually wrong. The increase in US grads entering ACGME positions has basically equalled the increase in residency spots, that's just a fact and not debatable.

There's no doubt that the US medical education system is trying to close the gap between graduates and residency positions. The part where we disagree is the time frame. Your making lots of assumptions (loss of "many" osteopathic residency positions, 34 new schools opening before 2020) that may or may not come true. I think not coming true is much more likely. If history tells us anything about the US medical education system, it's that change happens at an exceedingly slow pace.

Again, the authors of the NEJM article looked at all of this and concluded there would still be ~4,500 more residency positions in 2024 than US grads to fill them. With US-IMGs favored over foreign-IMGs (other than superstars from top foreign schools), there will still be plenty of residency positions for Caribbean grads into the 2020s.

 

[the argus]

Last I saw, their actual 4-year graduation and placement rate was around 50%. 70% may make it, but in longer than 4 years. Though it's hard to say, because they don't make such figures publicly available.

And BTW, focusing on 4 year graduation rate when it comes to the Caribbean schools also does not tell the whole story. This is because they start new classes multiple (2 or 3) times per year. Many people voluntarily choose to extend their schooling past the 4 year mark in order to not have a gap between finishing school and starting residency.

For instance, if you start in the January class, going through the 4 years "on schedule" will have you finish school sometime around September/October (i.e. a few months shy of 4 years). Then you are left with a ~6 month gap to try and find something to do before residency. Many people will just put gaps between their clinical rotations throughout 3rd and 4th year to fill up this extra time, hence expanding their schooling past the 4 year mark.

This issue is magnified even more for people that start in the May classes. You therefore have 2/3 of the people at Ross who are off the traditional medical school timing cycle, and many (if not most) of these people extend their schooling past the 4 year mark in order to get back onto the traditional cycle.

 

[Skip Intro]

I'm still waiting on my DO choices, but that being said: I did not apply to USMD schools. I didn't want to be part of that. I want to take a less traditional approach to medicine. Do something that isn't as popular.

This is a curious statement. I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure that this is well thought-out. I am sure it is ill-advised, if that is your primary motivation. In fact, many "traditional" U.S. medical school ADCOMs might find your background interesting and compelling.

Doing something simply to be iconoclastic is not smart... especially in this profession. You need to learn and apply the material, not chase butterflies. A harsh reality awaits you if you believe differently.

-Skip

 

[zobay]

This is a curious statement. I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure that this is well thought-out. I am sure it is ill-advised, if that is your primary motivation. In fact, many "traditional" U.S. medical school ADCOMs might find your background interesting and compelling.

Doing something simply to be iconoclastic is not smart... especially in this profession. You need to learn and apply the material, not chase butterflies. A harsh reality awaits you if you believe differently.

-Skip

It's not my primary motivation, it's just an easy one to pinpoint. I've applied when I was in college to multiple MD summer programs where they do the 8 weeks of sciences or something of that sort, and have been turned down multiple years. I wish USMD schools found my background interesting, but background seems to not be of a high priority for where I looked.

I was told my age and background of being homeschooled, engineering high school, out of college early, tons of world traveling, and a multitude of ECs would all provide interest for USMD schools, and I've just been really disappointed. I was hoping that something slightly less traditional (like DO) would embrace that, but they throw the age card at me.

I'm not sure what I can do about that short of waiting to get older.

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[holdthemayo]

I'm not sure what I can do about that short of waiting to get older.

You can retake your MCAT...

You didn't get rejected for being homeschooled, for living on a boat, or for being too young. Those are pretty poor excuses. You didn't get in anywhere because you got a 494 on your MCAT. Many schools are looking for students with unique EC's or interesting backgrounds, but only if your GPA and MCAT are good enough. If you fix your MCAT you should have a decent shot at a DO school.

 

[Skip Intro]

With all due respect, you're all over the place...

... I've applied when I was in college to multiple MD summer programs where they do the 8 weeks of sciences or something of that sort, and have been turned down multiple years.
....
I was told my age and background of being homeschooled, engineering high school, out of college early, tons of world traveling, and a multitude of ECs would all provide interest for USMD schools, and I've just been really disappointed. I was hoping that something slightly less traditional (like DO) would embrace that, but they throw the age card at me.

But, well above that, you said this:

.... that being said: I did not apply to USMD schools. I didn't want to be part of that. I want to take a less traditional approach to medicine.

Not sure what exactly is the truth... or how earnestly you have investigated your options here.

If it is simply a matter of poor MCAT scores (as was alluded to), then I highly suggest that you refocus and retake the MCAT. In the time since I attended in the Caribbean (Ross), 41 new medical schools (or campuses) have opened up. Age is not an issue. It may even be an asset for some programs. Provided that with age comes maturity.

My armchair diagnosis? It sounds to me that you might have a confidence problem and that you are couching that in some airy self-delusion that you want to do a "non-traditional" pathway as a way to salvage your ego. Sorry. Just what I've gleaned here.

Bottom line is this: medicine is medicine. You will have to learn and master the material no matter where you go. You will have to pass multiple standardized exams. Doing this with a degree from a foreign country is a lot harder. It creates many more challenges than you can now possibly foresee.

So, be honest and realistic with your shortcomings - and don't use them as scapegoats or excuses, or the foundation to shape your alternate worldview. Medicine is rigid and demanding. That's all I'm trying to tell you. There are no shortcuts. This is not the "easy way out". No one is going to give you a medical degree - or more importantly, let you keep a medical license - without expecting you to be able to do the job.

A "non-traditional pathway" doesn't mean a cooler, more fun, easier, or more interesting pathway. Those concepts are not (necessarily) synonymous, although I had some amazing experiences during school that I will always cherish. But, many people go into this thinking that. What often happens is that they come out on the other end without a degree but a much lighter wallet.

Exhaust all your U.S. options first. Don't harbor any starry ideas that this is the "cooler" way to go.

-Skip

 

[Veritas_et_Visus]

So I see lots of hate towards Carib schools, and they all have US creds, as well as the NY and Cali things that are needed. Students pass the USMLE with 93%+.
If you know your curriculum and work hard, you can't get screwed.

When Carib schools seem to be getting better, why is there still so much hate? It's like undergrad, no one really gives a damn where you go as long as you work hard and graduate.

I'm already an oddball, I was homeschooled for a long time, and I lived on a boat as a kid. I think I would thrive in the community.

So what's with the hate?


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[Veritas_et_Visus]

Part of the hate issue is historical. The offshore medical schools got away with a lot for many years. In the last decade or so the US Department of Education started cutting funding to a lot of them based on performance. They had to improve their pass and retention rates and work out deals for US rotation sites (it's very money-driven, like almost all of medicine is anymore). You'll notice a jump in tuition if you look at the historical rates, that was to pay for rotations and add more academic support. Still, that's what it took to get as some of the schools on track. If you apply, only apply to schools where you can get federal loans, even if you don't need the loans.
Another part of the hate is simply human nature. If I didn't pass the boards, or get the residency I wanted, etc., it's obviously the fault of the medical school I went to (after all, it couldn't have been my fault.) Realize that most people go to these schools because they couldn't get into US schools. There were reasons for that, and often those reasons still exist while they are going to medical school so comparing the two is comparing apples to oranges. The attrition rate is higher. I've heard 12% from a knowledgable source at one of these schools.

So I see lots of hate towards Carib schools, and they all have US creds, as well as the NY and Cali things that are needed. Students pass the USMLE with 93%+.
If you know your curriculum and work hard, you can't get screwed.

When Carib schools seem to be getting better, why is there still so much hate? It's like undergrad, no one really gives a damn where you go as long as you work hard and graduate.

I'm already an oddball, I was homeschooled for a long time, and I lived on a boat as a kid. I think I would thrive in the community.

So what's with the hate?


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[Veritas_et_Visus]

Historically, these schools had high attrition low board pass rates, and poor residency match rates. The US Department of Education put the screws to them in terms of eligibility for student loans. Some of them straightened up, others started focusing on training non-US students or US students seeking bottom dollar medical education. The DeVry owned ones (which include both Ross and AUC) pretty much straightened up. In fact, DeVry moved into the market about this time. I heard from a reliable source from one school that their attrition rate is currently 12% of the students that entered. This compares with 18% for US medical schools based on the most recent report: https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf Also, NBOME pass rates at the same school are 97%, higher than the average for US MD or DO schools. When you consider that many of the students who go to these schools could not get into US schools, that's pretty good from a value added perspective. The ways they did this was by making it a higher priority, adding more academic support structure, and paying top dollar for US rotation sites to take their students (rotation sites have become very money-driven in recent years). This means you're going to pay more in terms of tuition. HOWEVER - you have to go to a school that is eligible for US loans, even if you don't need these loans.
The other reason for hate is simply human nature: If I didn't pass boards or get the residency I wanted it was because I went to a lousy medical school (of course, it couldn't have been my own fault).

 

[Shinken]

Please, please think very carefully before deciding to go to a Caribbean medical school. I know looking at it from a certain perspective, it seems like a decent idea ("I'll work hard and I'll make it!"), but the reality is much different. Don't be fooled by statistics that can be manipulated. Now that I'm involved in a residency admissions committee I'm amazed at the exorbitant number of desperate Caribbean grads begging (yes, that's the word I'm using) for a spot. They grovel, they plead, they call non-stop, they e-mail non-stop.

This last week, after SOAP was over, we've been overwhelmed with e-mails and phone messages, all from hundreds of Caribbean grads without a residency spot. I know in the confines of an anonymous board things look different, but in the real world I would never recommend anyone to go to the Caribbean unless that was the absolute last option available. You can be successful as a Caribbean grad, but you have to know what to do to succeed and be realistic about the decision.

For this year's match, almost half (45.2%) of US citizen graduates of foreign med schools went unmatched. This is per the NRMP's data released after the match. Not good numbers. For US MDs, the unmatched rate was 5.7% and for DOs it was 18.3%.

The most interesting thing for me is the trend I saw on the same table - for DOs, the unmatched rates were 25% in 2013, 22% in 2014, 20% in 2015, and 19% in 2016. For US MDs and US FMGs it has remained stable since 2013, has not considerably improved nor worsened.

 

[Veritas_et_Visus]

So I see lots of hate towards Carib schools, and they all have US creds, as well as the NY and Cali things that are needed. Students pass the USMLE with 93%+.
If you know your curriculum and work hard, you can't get screwed.

When Carib schools seem to be getting better, why is there still so much hate? It's like undergrad, no one really gives a damn where you go as long as you work hard and graduate.

I'm already an oddball, I was homeschooled for a long time, and I lived on a boat as a kid. I think I would thrive in the community.

So what's with the hate?


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[Veritas_et_Visus]

Again, in the present day there are two types of Caribbean medical schools: (1) those policed by the US DOE and eligible for student loans and (2) the others. You probably don't want to go to category 2 unless you plan to practice medicine somewhere else than the US or Canada. The school I was talking about earlier had a first choice US residency match rate of 86% in 2006, which is probably better than the US average. A lot of the negatives you hear are from people with experiences from years ago, no longer current information.

 

[gyngyn]

Again, in the present day there are two types of Caribbean medical schools: (1) those policed by the US DOE and eligible for student loans and (2) the others. You probably don't want to go to category 2 unless you plan to practice medicine somewhere else than the US or Canada. The school I was talking about earlier had a first choice US residency match rate of 86% in 2006, which is probably better than the US average. A lot of the negatives you hear are from people with experiences from years ago, no longer current information.

The only reliable data available is from the NRMP.
Here is the most recent:http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-IMGs-2016.pdf
Here it is by island: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-IMGs-2016.pdf
Go to page 22. Find your island and look at the most recent result.
Remember, this does not include pre-graduation attrition.

 

[Veritas_et_Visus]

The only reliable data available is from the NRMP.
Here is the most recent:http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-IMGs-2016.pdf
Here it is by island: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-IMGs-2016.pdf
Go to page 22. Find your island and look at the most recent result.
Remember, this does not include pre-graduation attrition.

Once again, lumping all Caribbean medical schools together tells you exactly nothing.

 

[gyngyn]

Once again, lumping all Caribbean medical schools together tells you exactly nothing.

Unless there were two medical schools on the island you attended, results for that island will reflect that school's outcome for applicants (not matriculants, unfortunately).

 

[Veritas_et_Visus]

Again, lumping all foreign medical schools together tells you absolutely nothing about any specific school. There are very different standards between US accredited foreign medical schools and non-accredited ones. Lumping by island is also misleading. For example RUSM and All Saints both share the island of Dominica but they are very different schools. As as far as saying that the NRMP is the 'only reliable data available', I'd like to see the proof of that. Not only is the US DOE policing the accredited foreign medical schools for performance, they are also policing claims made on their web sites. If the NRMP wants to submit a worthwhile report, they need to do it by specific medical school. Otherwise, their report is actually not reliable.

 

[Veritas_et_Visus]

Again, lumping all foreign medical schools together tells you absolutely nothing about any specific school. There are very different standards between US accredited foreign medical schools and non-accredited ones. Lumping by island is also misleading. For example RUSM and All Saints both share the island of Dominica but they are very different schools. As as far as saying that the NRMP is the 'only reliable data available', I'd like to see the proof of that. Not only is the US DOE policing the accredited foreign medical schools for performance, they are also policing claims made on their web sites. If the NRMP wants to submit a worthwhile report, they need to do it by specific medical school. Otherwise, their report is actually not reliable.

 

[Veritas_et_Visus]

So if you really want to inform, rather than obfuscate (which is what you are doing), why don't you do it by those schools who students are eligible to receive US student loans?

 

[ScottTenorman54]

.

 

[Veritas_et_Visus]

Couple things that seem a bit off here -

- If you're doubting the reliability of NRMP data, feel free to submit an alternative data source that contradicts it. Claims on a school's website are definitely not more reliable, for obvious reasons.

- DOE polices these schools for graduation rates and performance on USMLE. Not residency. You can see their own criteria here: https://ifap.ed.gov/ForeignSchoolInfo/attachments/FSEligEligibilityCriteria.pdf .

The residency match rates for Carib schools are still low across the board relative to USMD and DO, that's the main reason people here advise against them. It's a little better for the federal aid eligible schools, yes, but not enough to make them an advisable option here. Especially when students are way too hasty to book a plane south when there are plenty of things they could do to get in stateside within a couple years.

 

[Veritas_et_Visus]

I don't think that's really any answer. What the DOE criteria say is not what the DOE is doing. You could readily find this out by searching some of the old news sources on Google News, if you wanted to find it out. I've had full time faculty jobs at both allopathic and osteopathic medical schools and even did a 3 week visiting stint at a foreign medical school several years ago, but I'm not working for any medical school now, so unlike some others, I have no financial interests in this. From what I've seen in 30+ years teaching over 6000 future doctors, there really isn't that much difference among them, except that some take in more capable students than others.

 

[ScottTenorman54]

I don't think that's really any answer. What the DOE criteria say is not what the DOE is doing. You could readily find this out by searching some of the old news sources on Google News, if you wanted to find it out. I've had full time faculty jobs at both allopathic and osteopathic medical schools and even did a 3 week visiting stint at a foreign medical school several years ago, but I'm not working for any medical school now, so unlike some others, I have no financial interests in this. From what I've seen in 30+ years teaching over 6000 future doctors, there really isn't that much difference among them, except that some take in more capable students than others.

That sounds like a pretty relevant difference. But it's still missing the point. Nobody's talking about the caliber of students at the school. I don't doubt there are a fair amount of carib students who could run circles around their US counterparts. It's about the residency doors that the schools open, and the fact that the carib schools open far fewer of these doors, and helping students understand their options before they make a commitment. Now that's two sources of data that you've casually dismissed with "nah that's not what's really going on", without providing any real source of your own. What are you proposing? That instead of using the data available to advise students, people should just go by your word? Do a Google News search?

 

[Goro]

SDNers do not like the idea of gullible/desperate/misguided people being taken advantage of by diploma mills that engage in educational malpractice.


A little light reading:

https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/

http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu

So I see lots of hate towards Carib schools, and they all have US creds, as well as the NY and Cali things that are needed. Students pass the USMLE with 93%+.
If you know your curriculum and work hard, you can't get screwed.

When Carib schools seem to be getting better, why is there still so much hate? It's like undergrad, no one really gives a damn where you go as long as you work hard and graduate.

I'm already an oddball, I was homeschooled for a long time, and I lived on a boat as a kid. I think I would thrive in the community.

So what's with the hate?


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[ama303]

SDNers do not like the idea of gullible/desperate/misguided people being taken advantage of by diploma mills that engage in educational malpractice.


A little light reading:

https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/

http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu

This million dollar mistake person sounds a bit racist. He complains about being taught by foreign teachers from West Africa and India as if they are necessarily inferior. And then complains about doing rotations in "the ghetto". He doesn't sound very compassionate or like he's in medicine for the greatest reasons. In fact, reading this, it's unclear why he originally wanted to go to med school. To become an ortho surgeon and make lots of money? People can feel where your heart is. Maybe that's why he din't get accepted to med school in the states to begin with. His attitude.

 

[whatsmysystolicdoc]

If Caribbean schools have such "poor reputation," then take a look at some of the match lists from carib schools this year and last year... a lot of better match's than many many DO students and even some US MD students. Yale, mayo clinic, Cleveland clinic, etc. Lot's of other incredible hospitals too, and university hospitals. They are showing results for sure in the carib!

 

[FCMike11]

If Caribbean schools have such "poor reputation," then take a look at some of the match lists from carib schools this year and last year... a lot of better match's than many many DO students and even some US MD students. Yale, mayo clinic, Cleveland clinic, etc. Lot's of other incredible hospitals too, and university hospitals. They are showing results for sure in the carib!

No...stop.

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[ama303]

This he also says "It sucks being smart. Not a day goes by I don’t wake up wishing I was dumb – that way at least I would deserve being demoted to primary care."

This man has a real attitude problem.... I would not trust a word this person says. I'm NOT saying go to a Carb school, but don't post this ridiculous blog. This guy does not respect medicine in all of its forms and he does not respect people from other comments on his blog. He is not a good source of information.

 

[zobay]

I don't think that's really any answer. What the DOE criteria say is not what the DOE is doing. You could readily find this out by searching some of the old news sources on Google News, if you wanted to find it out. I've had full time faculty jobs at both allopathic and osteopathic medical schools and even did a 3 week visiting stint at a foreign medical school several years ago, but I'm not working for any medical school now, so unlike some others, I have no financial interests in this. From what I've seen in 30+ years teaching over 6000 future doctors, there really isn't that much difference among them, except that some take in more capable students than others.

I really appreciate all your input into this thread. I've definitely been continuing my research.


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[NotAProgDirector]

Oh good, it's this thread again.

As I've said before: Carib schools are not dead-ends. Lots of people go to a carib school, graduate, get a US residency, and have successful careers as physicians. The problem is that it seems very likely that a sizable number of people end up failing out, or never matching. And the schools try to hide this behind their flashy websites. Some schools are more established and better than others, for sure.

Since we're discussing Ross, let's focus on them. Although, the same could be said of any of the schools.

First, deceptive advertising. The first thing I wanted to know was how many students Ross accepts. Be my guest and try to find out on their website. It's not listed at all. They have three classes, and based upon other websites, 400-600 per class with the Fall start being the largest.

Student retention: They say it's 89%. But if we assume that there are 400 per term (probably a low end estimate) x 3 terms = 1200 students per year. Now we go to their match list page for 2017, I copied the list into Excel. There are 614 categorical matches, and another 25 prelim surgery, and this is for both current and prior grads. That's much less than 1200, and much more than an 11% attrition. The attrition rate seems much higher, probably more like 25%. Whether that's "bad" (i.e.they are taking advantage of gullible students) or whether it's "good" (they give people a second chance) is all relative.

Match results -- also unclear from all of their websites. But it's interesting to look at 2013. If you look at Charting Outcomes from the Match for 2013, the match results per country are listed (they were removed in the 2016 version). Dominica had 595 matches, and 505 non matches. @Veritas_et_Visus is correct that it's hard to interpret this, because there are two schools on Dominica -- Ross and All Saints. But All Saints claims "over 1000 students total" currently -- assuming 1200, that's 300 per class -- and they have two campuses, one on a different island, so probably 100-150 on Dominica. Hence, even if not a single all saints student matched (which is obviously wrong), the match result from Ross is not great. And, in case you don't believe that data, let's use Ross's own data - from their 2013 match list, they claim 733 students obtained residency spots. Since we know that only 595 total Dominica students matched, it's clear that many ended up in the scramble.

So, bottom line (or TL;DR): Carib schools are a potential option for those who can't get into US schools. Anyone who simply goes to the Carib without trying in the US because it's "easier and faster" is foolish. Carib schools clearly try to hide their attrition rates, and make "match" rates look better by including people who get spots after the match, and probably manipulate their statistics by having students "withdraw" rather than fail out. The better known carib schools likely have better results than the less well known.

 

[FCMike11]

This million dollar mistake person sounds a bit racist. He complains about being taught by foreign teachers from West Africa and India as if they are necessarily inferior. And then complains about doing rotations in "the ghetto". He doesn't sound very compassionate or like he's in medicine for the greatest reasons. In fact, reading this, it's unclear why he originally wanted to go to med school. To become an ortho surgeon and make lots of money? People can feel where your heart is. Maybe that's why he din't get accepted to med school in the states to begin with. His attitude.

Yeah. I used to try and empathize with the guy. I just reread his blog and he called his two DO interviews "pitiful". Self-pitying attitude. Would have likely been able to match AOA ortho with those scores at TOURO-CA as well.

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