Audition rotations in radiology?

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What I was told:

Unnecessary and likely more harmful than helpful if you are a strong candidate. If you are a weak/moderate candidate or interested in a single program it might be worth considering.

Don't know how this applies to DO applicants specifically. It may be more valuable..
 
What Trastuz wrote is the general word floating about in Radiology circles. However, I think it is bad advice, because there is a lot to be learned from away rotations.

I did an away rotation at a program with a small residency class size and learned a TON about what I wanted out of my eventual residency program. Going into the rotation my thought process was that I wanted a smaller residency program where I rotated mostly through one hospital. After the rotation and interviewing, I still liked the program I rotated with; however, for a variety of reasons, my desires changed to wanting a large program where I rotated through multiple hospitals. Without the away rotation experience, I doubt that this would have been as clear to me.

Now some will say, "it can only hurt you if you're strong." While it will hurt some of you out there with poor social skills. For others of you, it will give you an opportunity over the course of the month to show them what a cool person you would be to sit next to for 4 years. If you have a tough time socializing with others, read a book like "How to Win Friends and Influence People" or "How to Work a Room" and work on these skills. They're invaluable for now and for future hiring - especially private practice. As a future radiologist, essentially your entire job centers around communicating effectively through written and spoken communication with your physician colleagues. Work on it now.

Another argument is that there is no way to shine in a reading room as a student. This is false. I think many people take the wrong approach to what to read on these month long rotations (if they read at all). This is not the time to read Brant and Helms. However, I was pimped on a ridiculous number of questions that were almost straight out of "Radiology Secrets Plus". I would highly recommend the book. I also read all of "Learning Radiology", which was far less high yield for being pimped on, but a good book none-the-less.

By working hard and reading diligently each night, by socializing at any given chance with attendings and residents, and by presenting 2 separate short cases to the residents during noon conference, I stood out during my rotation. My best letter of recommendation came out of this away rotation - it has been commented on at every single interview. On top of that, I met a lot of great people!

Away rotations can be helpful by showing you what you want, and if you're lucky, you may also make a strong impression on the program. I recommend doing one at an institution that is different (in size, # of hospitals, etc) from your home program. Remember, keep your expectations realistic. Aways will not turn water into wine. If you have a 230 STEP 1 and are not AOA, an away is likely not going to help you match at a Mass Gen, UTSW, MIR, Penn, Michigan, or UCSF, but there are other benefits to be had. As a DO student, rotate at a DO-friendly institution (you can check their lists of residents to see if any DO's are already there).

One last thing: don't forget to wear your smile every day. You're on a month long interview. Best of luck!
 
TheTwits said:
One last thing: don't forget to wear your smile every day. You're on a month long interview. Best of luck!
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This is excellent advice and I greatly appreciate it!

I am nearing the end of my third yr and plan on doing my first radiology rotation in my elective spot. What do you do when you are in the reading room? I know some docs just want to get done with the workload, but do they teach during the readings, etc?
 
MedicineMike said:
I am nearing the end of my third yr and plan on doing my first radiology rotation in my elective spot. What do you do when you are in the reading room? I know some docs just want to get done with the workload, but do they teach during the readings, etc?
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It really depends on your institution and the radiologist you're working with for the day.

For example, the physician may be in the reading room with you the entire time each day going over each case as they come through with residents and medical students. Or the physician may pop in every few hours to "read out" and go over all the studies done in the morning or afternoon with residents and medical students. The institution may fall somewhere in between the two extremes as well. Either way, the amount of teaching varies significantly from attending to attending, and the amount of involvement with the medical students will vary as well. I know this does not help a whole lot, but it's in your best interest to be prepared by reading (Radiology Secrets Plus) from the start.

I suggest if you do an away to make sure you pick a specific sub-specialty such as Neuroradiology, Body, Chest, or Nuclear Medicine. As opposed to general radiology, this allows you to actually look intelligent and learn something if you're focused on one of these subspecialties for 4 weeks. Doing a general radiology rotation, where you rotate through everything, can make it much tougher to appear smart, because of the huge variety of knowledge. It is also advantageous, in my opinion, to avoid interventional radiology or musculoskeletal on an away. I believe these two subspecialties are difficult to stand out on, because they tend to be procedure and MRI heavy respectively - two things you will participate less in as a medical student.

Realize that if you do a month long rotation in one subspecialty, you are essentially on the R1's level of knowledge if it is their first time through this particular subspecialty. This can really play to your advantage, because you are labeled a "medical student".

Again, best of luck!
 
I know this would vary extremely from program to program but do away IR rotations let visiting students scrub in or are they just awkward spectators?
 
On the away I did, there were a couple of days spent rotating through IR and NeuroIR if we showed interest. There was plenty of volume relative to fellows and residents, and I was first assist for many of the cases. Obviously, this is going to vary hugely from institution to institution based on volume, # of fellows, resident interest, etc.
 
TheTwits said:
It really depends on your institution and the radiologist you're working with for the day.

For example, the physician may be in the reading room with you the entire time each day going over each case as they come through with residents and medical students. Or the physician may pop in every few hours to "read out" and go over all the studies done in the morning or afternoon with residents and medical students. The institution may fall somewhere in between the two extremes as well. Either way, the amount of teaching varies significantly from attending to attending, and the amount of involvement with the medical students will vary as well. I know this does not help a whole lot, but it's in your best interest to be prepared by reading (Radiology Secrets Plus) from the start.

I suggest if you do an away to make sure you pick a specific sub-specialty such as Neuroradiology, Body, Chest, or Nuclear Medicine. As opposed to general radiology, this allows you to actually look intelligent and learn something if you're focused on one of these subspecialties for 4 weeks. Doing a general radiology rotation, where you rotate through everything, can make it much tougher to appear smart, because of the huge variety of knowledge. It is also advantageous, in my opinion, to avoid interventional radiology or musculoskeletal on an away. I believe these two subspecialties are difficult to stand out on, because they tend to be procedure and MRI heavy respectively - two things you will participate less in as a medical student.

Realize that if you do a month long rotation in one subspecialty, you are essentially on the R1's level of knowledge if it is their first time through this particular subspecialty. This can really play to your advantage, because you are labeled a "medical student".

Again, best of luck!
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to the OP: I think your goal is to strengthen your application and not to see what is radiology about.

I recommend the exact opposite of the above post. The biggest mistake as a medical student is to try to impress people by your radiology knowledge. The goal of rotation IS NOT TO IMPRESS PEOPLE. The more you try this, the worst is the outcome. In fact, by overdoing it, you may annoy some first year residents. Even if you rotate one month in the same subspecialty it is very very hard to impress people by your level of knowledge. Don't forget that you are just an observer there.

IMO, you have to rotate through 4 different reading rooms and try to know as much people as possible. Try to have short but nice conversations with as much faculty memebers and residents as you can. Esp program director and some of the other faculty members. The key is to be nice. Nobody cares about your radiology knowledge. It is important to have 10 faculty members tell others that you are a nice person and they enjoy having you in the reading room.

To my experience, the last part of the above post is dangerous. Never ever try to jump into the teaching session between resident and the attending and give the answer that the R1 may not know. At best people will think that you know the answer. However, the biggest risk is to piss off the resident (R1). Believe it or not, medical student evaluation is mostly done by RESIDENTS and not the attending.

Bottom line: Don't try to look SMART by your radiology knowledge. Try to look MOTIVATED, EASY GOING and PLEASANT. If you want to look SMART try it by your general medicine knowledge at most. There has been many times that a stellar candidate was not ranked in a top program just because other people (residents, fellows and attendings) didn't like him. "Though he is extremely smart, he is NOT THE RIGHT PERSONALITY for our program."
 
shark2000 said:
Bottom line: Don't try to look SMART by your radiology knowledge. Try to look MOTIVATED, EASY GOING and PLEASANT. If you want to look SMART try it by your general medicine knowledge at most. There has been many times that a stellar candidate was not ranked in a top program just because other people (residents, fellows and attendings) didn't like him. "Though he is extremely smart, he is NOT THE RIGHT PERSONALITY for our program."
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Let me apologize if I failed in my two posts here to convey that the most important thing is to be a cool person to be around. Like Shark says, you should be easy going, pleasant, and as fun to talk to as possible. That's rule number #1 and #2 and should be your focus on any away for impressing the program and having a good time yourself.

While I agree with Shark about most posts he has on here, I disagree that you should "not try to look smart by your radiology knowledge". There's a fine balance between looking smart and coming off as an overbearing gunner. Use your common sense to judge what's appropriate. Obviously, just like every other rotation you have and will be on, never interrupt as the attending is making teaching points, never intervene when a resident doesn't know the answer you know, etc. However, if you're asked a question, which hopefully you'll be asked a lot of questions like I was, it's nice to know a few answers - it's even better to know a lot of answers. Answer respectfully, and be cool about it. It's helpful for a future program to know that you are motivated to learn radiology as well, in my opinion. Having a little knowledge also has the added benefit of making the day much more interesting since you will know a little bit about what you're looking at.

Regarding Shark's suggestion that you rotate through general radiology to meet as many people as possible, I see his point. It's obviously paramount you meet enough people who can say good things about you to the right people (the program director, assistant pd's, etc.). You can do this easily if you introduce yourself to people at morning and noon conference and behave in a friendly manner. If you have an interest in spending a day in another subspecialty, most programs will accommodate you. However, if you would like to get a strong letter of recommendation from an attending on your away as well, it is invaluable to have worked with them multiple times which you will likely not do if you're merely floating around from place to place. If you're painfully shy, it would likely help you to do a general rotation, like Shark suggests, to meet more people, but there are other ways to accomplish this.

Bottom Line:
#1 Be a cool person to be around.
#2 Did I mention, "be cool"? Seriously, relax and be pleasant to be around.
#3 Introduce yourself to as many people as possible: attendings, residents, program coordinators
#4 Learn some radiology by doing some reading and attempt to gain a little knowledge out of the rotation.
#5 Show this knowledge in a polite manner when questions are directed your way. Never interrupt teaching points or residents.
 
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TheTwits said:
Let me apologize if I failed in my two posts here to convey that the most important thing is to be a cool person to be around. Like Shark says, you should be easy going, pleasant, and as fun to talk to as possible. That's rule number #1 and #2 and should be your focus on any away for impressing the program and having a good time yourself.

While I agree with Shark about most posts he has on here, I disagree that you should "not try to look smart by your radiology knowledge". There's a fine balance between looking smart and coming off as an overbearing gunner. Use your common sense to judge what's appropriate. Obviously, just like every other rotation you have and will be on, never interrupt as the attending is making teaching points, never intervene when a resident doesn't know the answer you know, etc. However, if you're asked a question, which hopefully you'll be asked a lot of questions like I was, it's nice to know a few answers - it's even better to know a lot of answers. Answer respectfully, and be cool about it. It's helpful for a future program to know that you are motivated to learn radiology as well, in my opinion. Having a little knowledge also has the added benefit of making the day much more interesting since you will know a little bit about what you're looking at.

Regarding Shark's suggestion that you rotate through general radiology to meet as many people as possible, I see his point. It's obviously paramount you meet enough people who can say good things about you to the right people (the program director, assistant pd's, etc.). You can do this easily if you introduce yourself to people at morning and noon conference and behave in a friendly manner. If you have an interest in spending a day in another subspecialty, most programs will accommodate you. However, if you would like to get a strong letter of recommendation from an attending on your away as well, it is invaluable to have worked with them multiple times which you will likely not do if you're merely floating around from place to place. If you're painfully shy, it would likely help you to do a general rotation, like Shark suggests, to meet more people, but there are other ways to accomplish this.

Bottom Line:
#1 Be a cool person to be around.
#2 Did I mention, "be cool"? Seriously, relax and be pleasant to be around.
#3 Introduce yourself to as many people as possible: attendings, residents, program coordinators
#4 Learn some radiology by doing some reading and attempt to gain a little knowledge out of the rotation.
#5 Show this knowledge in a polite manner when questions are directed your way. Never interrupt teaching points or residents.
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Again, thanks to you and the shark for the replies!

Without sounding too conceded; I consider myself very easy going/easy to talk to, etc. I'm not worried about being personable or anything like that bc it comes natural.

What I am more concerned about is doing the RIGHT rotation. So here goes:

My school is not in the same location to which I want to do my residency. I have a elective in the spring and I plan on doing radiology, BUT don't know if I should do it in the state I want to do my residency (at a 'reach' program, or an attainable program) OR should I do it at the community hospital I am currently at. At this community hospital my rotation would be with a doc who does both diagnostic and IR, and he has no residents, so it would just be he and I.

Thoughts?
 
Try to rotate in a place where you want to go for residency, within reasonable limits (if your scores are not good for Hopkins, no point in rotating there).

An LOR from a single community radiologist does not have that much weight. The more academic the program, the more value the LOR has. Also if you rotate with a department, it shows your interest in that department and you can make connections even in a short time. Probably the same attending whom you sit with in the reading room during your rotation is the one who will interview you. Having a rotation with a program is one of the strongest signs of your specific interest in that program. Go for it and good luck.
 
shark2000 said:
Try to rotate in a place where you want to go for residency, within reasonable limits (if your scores are not good for Hopkins, no point in rotating there).

An LOR from a single community radiologist does not have that much weight. The more academic the program, the more value the LOR has. Also if you rotate with a department, it shows your interest in that department and you can make connections even in a short time. Probably the same attending whom you sit with in the reading room during your rotation is the one who will interview you. Having a rotation with a program is one of the strongest signs of your specific interest in that program. Go for it and good luck.
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You think it is a good idea even at the end of my 3rd yr? I guess I just don't want to be ******ed on my first rads rotation.
 
JoshSt said:
I know this would vary extremely from program to program but do away IR rotations let visiting students scrub in or are they just awkward spectators?
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I rotated at UAMS (Arkansas) out of suggestion by a former fellow that posts here. It was incredible. I highly suggest this rotation for anyone interested in IR.

By the end of the month, I had done the following on my own (with supervision, of course): lines, ports, indwelling catheters, chest tubes, thoracocentesis, lung biopsies, thyroid biopsies, paracentesis, abdominal mass biopsies, liver biopsies, pancreatic FNA, abdominal drain placements, bone marrow biopsies...I'm probably forgetting some stuff. I had basically done every low end procedure possible. I was "around" and "assisted" for other procedures including biliary drain placements, percutaneous nephrostomy placements (actually put the tube in these after the line was placed), TACE, TARE, ablations, etc.
 
MedicineMike said:
You think it is a good idea even at the end of my 3rd yr? I guess I just don't want to be ******ed on my first rads rotation.
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You're gonna be a doctor soon. Probably time to stop using the word "******ed" as derogatory slang.
 
tco said:
I rotated at UAMS (Arkansas) out of suggestion by a former fellow that posts here. It was incredible. I highly suggest this rotation for anyone interested in IR.

By the end of the month, I had done the following on my own (with supervision, of course): lines, ports, indwelling catheters, chest tubes, thoracocentesis, lung biopsies, thyroid biopsies, paracentesis, abdominal mass biopsies, liver biopsies, pancreatic FNA, abdominal drain placements, bone marrow biopsies...I'm probably forgetting some stuff. I had basically done every low end procedure possible. I was "around" and "assisted" for other procedures including biliary drain placements, percutaneous nephrostomy placements (actually put the tube in these after the line was placed), TACE, TARE, ablations, etc.
Click to expand...
Awesome advice, thanks!
 
shark2000 said:
Try to rotate in a place where you want to go for residency, within reasonable limits (if your scores are not good for Hopkins, no point in rotating there).

An LOR from a single community radiologist does not have that much weight. The more academic the program, the more value the LOR has. Also if you rotate with a department, it shows your interest in that department and you can make connections even in a short time. Probably the same attending whom you sit with in the reading room during your rotation is the one who will interview you. Having a rotation with a program is one of the strongest signs of your specific interest in that program. Go for it and good luck.
Click to expand...

Bump

Can anyone give me some advice. Is doing my first radiology rotation towards the end of my 3rd yr, at an institution I'd want to end up, at a good idea? It's almost like I'd be doing an audition on my first rads rotation ever. This scares me
 
MedicineMike said:
Bump

Can anyone give me some advice. Is doing my first radiology rotation towards the end of my 3rd yr, at an institution I'd want to end up, at a good idea? It's almost like I'd be doing an audition on my first rads rotation ever. This scares me
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It doesn't sound like you have any other options? You don't have a home program to go to first.

To echo others above when we have rotators, I judge them on personality first. Radiology residency involves lots of 1 on 1 time often in an enclosed environment. I don't care about any knowledge because I don't expect you to have any, nor does the residency on Day 1 of residency.
 
DrBowtie said:
It doesn't sound like you have any other options? You don't have a home program to go to first.

To echo others above when we have rotators, I judge them on personality first. Radiology residency involves lots of 1 on 1 time often in an enclosed environment. I don't care about any knowledge because I don't expect you to have any, nor does the residency on Day 1 of residency.
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Thank you for the advice! I do have a home institution, but it is a community hospital nowhere near the location I want to end up. It would be a nice volume of diagnostics and IR, but after reading the advice here, I feel a LOR from a doc in my desired location > a LOR from small community center
 
MedicineMike said:
Thank you for the advice! I do have a home institution, but it is a community hospital nowhere near the location I want to end up. It would be a nice volume of diagnostics and IR, but after reading the advice here, I feel a LOR from a doc in my desired location > a LOR from small community center
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But by the sound of things, your home institution does not have a residency associated with it right?
 
There are a lot of folks in your situation who are interested in other specialties. I know of a few who are applying/have applied to neurosurg, ortho, ENT, and plastics without an associated home program. They, too, had to do aways without the benefit of having done a home AI or elective rotation. In their case, the expectations were much higher than what I would imagine they would be for a rads rotator (not having done any aways myself). The bottom line is that if you demonstrate interest, are pleasant (or even fun) to be around, and show somehow that you can work hard, then you'll probably do alright. Given the fact that you're looking for a letter, I would advise asking one attending to serve as your mentor over the course of the rotation. Meet with him/her regularly and talk to them about your experience there and your goals for the future. That will give you the best shot of getting a strong letter over the course of a single rotation at an outside institution.

And I wasn't kidding or just being a dick with my above post...I have a few friends who've been torpedoed on rotations by making similar comments around the wrong person. Just food for thought...
 
I didn't do any away rotations in radiology and my application is thoroughly mediocre in my opinion, and I've gotten more than enough interview invites (20 out of ~60 apps.)

Word on the interview trail is that certain institutions tend to heavily favor people who rotate there. In my neck of the woods, this supposedly includes Loyola and St Francis, and sure enough I didn't get invites at either of these places. I don't know what area you're looking at but I bet other people could chime in on which programs are like this in their regions. I don't think this matters a ton because I got enough other interviews, but if I'd known I maybe wouldn't have bothered applying to them, ya know?

I crossed paths with DO applicants on a fair number of my interviews- I think applying broadly and realistically (community programs, academic programs in podunk locations) will work for you. (That said, you should always apply to at least one of your dream programs and tell them how bad you want to go there- that's how I landed an interview at my #1 program!)
 
I did an externship at UF. It was fun to see another program, particularly a solid one. Make sure you take full advantage of the 2-4 weeks and try to network the best you can.

It may possibly get you at least an interview at the place.
 
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