Avelox for a sinus infection!?

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GreyFox2002

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So a female friend of mine had a sinus infection. Her doctor wrote for Augmentin, not covered by insurance of course. So than he decides, eh what the hell I have samples of Avelox I'll give it to her.....after 2 weeks she feels just the same.

What the hell is wrong with prescribing these days? Why are prescribers using antibiotics of last resort to treat common ailments that may not be bacterial at all? I despise fluroquinolones for their awful side effect profile and their overuse/resistance patterns. What happened to trying good ole' Amoxicillin first, then stepping up to Augmentin, cefprozil, or a zpak? Free samples or not that is terrible medicine..........

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You said Z-pack...that is bad in these parts..........


Oh yeah b*****es, I am back!
 
Mezlocillin, Septra and Cipro for ALL! Aww hell just give her Syndercid to increase the rate of MLSB resistance! Or Zyvox+Rifampin!
 
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what are the common pathogens for sinusitis? and what are the treatment options?



So a female friend of mine had a sinus infection. Her doctor wrote for Augmentin, not covered by insurance of course. So than he decides, eh what the hell I have samples of Avelox I'll give it to her.....after 2 weeks she feels just the same.

What the hell is wrong with prescribing these days? Why are prescribers using antibiotics of last resort to treat common ailments that may not be bacterial at all? I despise fluroquinolones for their awful side effect profile and their overuse/resistance patterns. What happened to trying good ole' Amoxicillin first, then stepping up to Augmentin, cefprozil, or a zpak? Free samples or not that is terrible medicine..........
 
what are the common pathogens for sinusitis? and what are the treatment options?


GreyFox2002: This is a teaching moment and you have available to you one of the most ID knowledgeable pharmacists out there. Answer the questions, you don't get a chance like this very often.
 
what are the common pathogens for sinusitis? and what are the treatment options?

COMMON pathogens for acute sinusitis would be:

Streptococcus pneumoniae, Haemophilus influenzae, and Moraxella catarrhalis

Treatment options for empiric therapy would be Amoxicillin, Bactrim, and Doxy
use others like Azith, Levo, Moxi if PCN allergic or if resistance is high


Staphylococcus aureus, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, certain anaerobes like Bacterodies and fungi can be seen in chronic sinusitis. Then the treatment options would be Amox/Clav, Levo, Moxi or Cefpod + Clinda (not desired due to C. Diff risk)
 
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this is a big reason why when a abx is not covered or a non preferred product, i really push the doxy and amoxil a lot...most time if augmentin is too expensive, i call md and get it switched to doxy (after asking the pt whats wrong and if and drug allergies)....its the best i can do to preserve big gun abx

i try 🙁
 
So a female friend of mine had a sinus infection. Her doctor wrote for Augmentin, not covered by insurance of course. So than he decides, eh what the hell I have samples of Avelox I'll give it to her.....after 2 weeks she feels just the same.

What the hell is wrong with prescribing these days? Why are prescribers using antibiotics of last resort to treat common ailments that may not be bacterial at all? I despise fluroquinolones for their awful side effect profile and their overuse/resistance patterns. What happened to trying good ole' Amoxicillin first, then stepping up to Augmentin, cefprozil, or a zpak? Free samples or not that is terrible medicine..........

Really? Every script I've seen for Augmentin has been covered. (Actually, I've never seen a script for Augmentin brand name.)
 
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I think Augmentin Generic is about fifteen to twenty times more expensive than amoxicillin >_>
 
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I say Z-Packs should be over the counter. This would save millions in wasted healthcare dollars.

Think about. Your average person gets the sniffles and goes to the Doctor. The visit probably costs $150.00. Add on a $100.00 for lost wages and productivity for missing work to sit in the office for 2 hours waiting. The Doc does a 30 second examination and writes a script for a Z-Pack and a $50.00 prescription cough syrup that conatins the same ingredients avaiable OTC for $10.00. He does this even though the he knows it is a viral infection.

I am a genius. Lets skip the middle man and put Z-packs OTC. Think of all the money we could save the system. I am writting Obama on this one.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong *cough* STAVI *cough*, but would it be asking too much to require a positive culture before dispensing an antibiotic in the outpatient setting? One could make a good case that 99% of these people would not become deathly ill in the time it takes to get a culture back.

I just don't see why empiric use shouldn't be limited.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong *cough* STAVI *cough*, but would it be asking too much to require a positive culture before dispensing an antibiotic in the outpatient setting? One could make a good case that 99% of these people would not become deathly ill in the time it takes to get a culture back.

I just don't see why empiric use shouldn't be limited.

Costs to much money and takes to much time. Empiric use should be limited. It is the public that demands a prescription everytime they get a runny nose. Don't look around and wonder who these people are you have probably done it yourself.

http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/134/6/495.pdf

Sorry from 1998 but still some good info.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/981115ap/fagnan.html
 
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Costs to much money and takes to much time. Empiric use should be limited. It is the public that demands a prescription everytime they get a runney nose. Don't look around and wonder who these people are you have probably done it yourself.

http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/134/6/495.pdf

Sorry from 1998 but still some good info.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/981115ap/fagnan.html

IDSA also addressed this:

http://news.idsociety.org/idsa/issues/2008-09-26/2.html#Sinusitis

I agree people want an abx when they go see their physician....not many do a culture and sensitivity with acute sinusitis. Maybe chronic, but even that is a stretch.. they will just switch abx until something gets the job done.... that is the way it is...
 
what are the common pathogens for sinusitis? and what are the treatment options?

Most common pathogens are viral in origin.

Bacterial most common are strep pneumoniae and and h. influenza.

Im not saying Avelox wouldn't work for acute sinusitis (if its bacterial). I'm saying its out of line for standard therapy and is overkill. Its a drug considered for last resort and life threatening situations, not something that should ever be used front line for sinusitis.

If your not going to bother culturing, it should be amoxicillin, with your next line being augmentin, 2nd gen cephs, zpaks, or bactrim. I would leave respiratory quinolones third line.

Augmentin is not on anyones $4 dollar list its expensive.
 
Most common pathogens are viral in origin.

Bacterial most common are strep pneumoniae and and h. influenza.

Im not saying Avelox wouldn't work for acute sinusitis (if its bacterial). I'm saying its out of line for standard therapy and is overkill. Its a drug considered for last resort and life threatening situations, not something that should ever be used front line for sinusitis.

If your not going to bother culturing, it should be amoxicillin, with your next line being augmentin, 2nd gen cephs, zpaks, or bactrim. I would leave respiratory quinolones third line.

Augmentin is not on anyones $4 dollar list its expensive.

Culturing is incredibly difficult with a sinus infection. To get into the sinuses, you need to use the medical equivalent of a Roto-Rooter, which is not a pleasant experience for anyone. Most patients balk at it, and generally only have one done with recurrent infections. Plus, there's so much flora naturally hanging out in the nose that its usefulness is limited by contamination.

I'll agree with you on the rest though. If the only reason you're dispensing an antibiotic is that you have it handy, it's not the right reason.
 
when i work the western pa stores, we did millions of augmentin....but in that area, there is a very high incidence of copd and what not, so i can see why they go with augmentin in that case

regardless, amoxil, doxy, etc should be first, quinolones should be 3rd
 
I say Z-Packs should be over the counter. This would save millions in wasted healthcare dollars.

Think about. Your average person gets the sniffles and goes to the Doctor. The visit probably costs $150.00. Add on a $100.00 for lost wages and productivity for missing work to sit in the office for 2 hours waiting. The Doc does a 30 second examination and writes a script for a Z-Pack and a $50.00 prescription cough syrup that conatins the same ingredients avaiable OTC for $10.00. He does this even though the he knows it is a viral infection.

I am a genius. Lets skip the middle man and put Z-packs OTC. Think of all the money we could save the system. I am writting Obama on this one.

in a sense you are right...a cold visit is level 3 billing, which is about 50 bucks reimbursement + the 15 copay of the pt or whatever...the md spends 3 mins tops, checks ears, throat, nose, writes abx, tells them to take something for drainage, and gives them cough syrup if pt asks...its really standard practice lol

i will say thou, if the family practice is run efficienty, there is no 2 hour wait time...i remember the place where i did my rotation at md office, theyd love to see cold patients and would get them in and out in a second, why? again, its easy 50-60 bucks for 3 mins
 
Please correct me if I am wrong *cough* STAVI *cough*, but would it be asking too much to require a positive culture before dispensing an antibiotic in the outpatient setting? One could make a good case that 99% of these people would not become deathly ill in the time it takes to get a culture back.

I just don't see why empiric use shouldn't be limited.

There are several counter arguements to this. First, a delay in treatment means loss productivity worktime. Second, cultures cost money too... in terms of doctor visit, etc.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong *cough* STAVI *cough*, but would it be asking too much to require a positive culture before dispensing an antibiotic in the outpatient setting? One could make a good case that 99% of these people would not become deathly ill in the time it takes to get a culture back.

I just don't see why empiric use shouldn't be limited.

How long will it take to get this said culture back?
 
Idiot.. :meanie:

I say Z-Packs should be over the counter. This would save millions in wasted healthcare dollars.

Think about. Your average person gets the sniffles and goes to the Doctor. The visit probably costs $150.00. Add on a $100.00 for lost wages and productivity for missing work to sit in the office for 2 hours waiting. The Doc does a 30 second examination and writes a script for a Z-Pack and a $50.00 prescription cough syrup that conatins the same ingredients avaiable OTC for $10.00. He does this even though the he knows it is a viral infection.

I am a genius. Lets skip the middle man and put Z-packs OTC. Think of all the money we could save the system. I am writting Obama on this one.
 
Bacterial most common are strep pneumoniae and and h. influenza.

And you're sure amoxicillin will cover these 2 bugs witout resistance?

Im not saying Avelox wouldn't work for acute sinusitis (if its bacterial). I'm saying its out of line for standard therapy and is overkill. Its a drug considered for last resort and life threatening situations, not something that should ever be used front line for sinusitis.

Why is it considered last resort? How does Avelox fit that criteria?

If your not going to bother culturing, it should be amoxicillin, with your next line being augmentin, 2nd gen cephs, zpaks, or bactrim. I would leave respiratory quinolones third line.

So...basically you're saying since this is an "EMPIRIC" thearpy, patients should be started on amoxicillin because?
 
So was the physician wrong for giving out the samples of Aveolx?
Is that a bad practice?

Should we only look at "treatment option" in terms of pathophysiology and pharmacotherapy? Or take into account more broad elements into decision making such as; patient convenience, finances-insurance coverage, community bacterial resistance pattern, etc.

In this case, she didn't respond to Avelox which is the most broad spectrum abx compared to all other agents talked about in this thread.

So what would have happened if amoxicillin would've been prescribed? Wouldn't have worked...then augmentin or zpack... wouldn't have worked...then 2nd or 3rd gen cephalosporins or other agents..wouldn't have worked..then quinolones..wouldn't have worked..

Then what??
 
GreyFox2002: This is a teaching moment and you have available to you one of the most ID knowledgeable pharmacists out there. Answer the questions, you don't get a chance like this very often.

What are you rambling on about old man.. :meanie:
 
I am a genius...It hurts but go ahead and admit it.👍


Chit..that can be said for all drugs... heck, put everything OTC...decrease doctor visits...get rid of pharmacists.. balance the federal budget and decrease the deficit. Yay..
 
What are you rambling on about old man.. :meanie:

You know these young kids, I wanted to make sure they took the bait. I also know you weren't going to spoon feed them the answers. This is how they really learn. You need to teach at one of the pharmacy schools, even if it's part time....
 
There are several counter arguements to this. First, a delay in treatment means loss productivity worktime. Second, cultures cost money too... in terms of doctor visit, etc.

Thanks for bringing up the point on contamination. I do realize that cultures cost money also, I was thinking that the benefits in terms of decreased antibiotic resistance and unneeded medication cost to the patient may have outweighed the cost of the culture and doctor visits.

Could you also argue that since many of these people coming to clinics are patients with viruses, a delay in treatment would not matter, since you are not giving them a drug to treat their condition? This may be faulty logic on my part, but it is worth asking about.
 
So was the physician wrong for giving out the samples of Aveolx?
Is that a bad practice?

Should we only look at "treatment option" in terms of pathophysiology and pharmacotherapy? Or take into account more broad elements into decision making such as; patient convenience, finances-insurance coverage, community bacterial resistance pattern, etc.

In this case, she didn't respond to Avelox which is the most broad spectrum abx compared to all other agents talked about in this thread.

So what would have happened if amoxicillin would've been prescribed? Wouldn't have worked...then augmentin or zpack... wouldn't have worked...then 2nd or 3rd gen cephalosporins or other agents..wouldn't have worked..then quinolones..wouldn't have worked..

Then what??

Look I don't deny that Moxifloxacin is a great antibiotic in terms of its broad spectrum capabilities. But, you basically answered the question yourself? Would Amoxicillin or Augmentin work if Avelox didn't? No....why? Its a viral infection. 95 % of acute sinusitis infections are viral in nature. I come from the notion that if we're not going to culture (even if its hard) than we have no business prescribing antibiotics. Therefore, I would rather her have gone through a course of amoxicillin or a zpak (since Augmentin was too expensive) and seen that as a treatment failure than waste what is supposed to be a last line fluoroquinolone. This is not even mentioning the large side effect profile that Avelox in particular has in comparison to other quinolones.

Just because something is free doesn't mean its an appropriate treatment choice, either.
 
can u find out?

Not sure whether this information is legit (this is by no means published data) but...

"A portion of the sputum is smeared on a microscope slide for a Gram stain. Another portion is spread over the surface of several different types of culture plates, and placed in an incubator at body temperature for one to two days.

A Gram stain is done by staining the slide with purple and red stains, then examining it under a microscope. Gram staining checks that the specimen does not contain saliva or material from the mouth. If many epithelial (skin) cells and few white blood cells are seen, the specimen is not pure sputum and is not adequate for culture. Depending on laboratory policy, the specimen may be rejected and a new specimen requested. If many white blood cells and bacteria of one type are seen, this is an early confirmation of infection. The color of stain picked up by the bacteria (purple or red), their shape (such as round or rectangular), and their size provide valuable clues as to their identity and helps the physician predict what antibiotics might work best before the entire test is completed. Bacteria that stain purple are called gram-positive; those that stain red are called gram-negative.

During incubation, bacteria present in the sputum sample multiply and will appear on the plates as visible colonies. The bacteria are identified by the appearance of their colonies, by the results of biochemical tests, and through a Gram stain of part of a colony.

A sensitivity test, also called antibiotic susceptibility test, is also done. The bacteria are tested against different antibiotics to determine which will treat the infection by killing the bacteria.

The initial result of the Gram stain is available the same day, or in less than an hour if requested by the physician. An early report, known as a preliminary report, is usually available after one day. This report will tell if any bacteria have been found yet, and if so, their Gram stain appearance--for example, a gram-negative rod, or a gram-positive cocci. The final report, usually available in one to three days, includes complete identification and an estimate of the quantity of the bacteria and a list of the antibiotics to which they are sensitive.

http://www.lifesteps.com/gm/Atoz/ency/sputum_culture_pr.jsp

Probably should have looked for that before posting, after all, it took only 15 minutes or so.
 
Chit..that can be said for all drugs... heck, put everything OTC...decrease doctor visits...get rid of pharmacists.. balance the federal budget and decrease the deficit. Yay..

So you admit I am a genius.....

That cannot be said for all drugs. The Z-Pack would cover all those people with viral URI who waste time and healthcare dollars visiting the doctor. Come on man work with me here. I know genius is hard to keep up with but try for me please.
 
So you admit I am a genius.....

That cannot be said for all drugs. The Z-Pack would cover all those people with viral URI who waste time and healthcare dollars visiting the doctor. Come on man work with me here. I know genius is hard to keep up with but try for me please.

You should move to Mexico. Almost everything can be gotten with a pharmacist "consultation." One of the pharmacists I work with is picking up some Zyvox OTC for me on vacation this week.
 

Look at what?

I don't deny that Moxifloxacin is a great antibiotic in terms of its broad spectrum capabilities.

I didn't say anything about Moxi being great or not.

But, you basically answered the question yourself? Would Amoxicillin or Augmentin work if Avelox didn't? No....why? Its a viral infection. 95 % of acute sinusitis infections are viral in nature.

I didn't answer any question. So you're saying the physician knew it was viral infection yet the patient still got the abx? It's after the fact that we think it's viral because Moxi didn't work. Look at the following scenario.

1. Doc dosen't prescribe anything thinking it's viral..but it ends up being Strep Pneumo and it becomes a larger infection. Law Suit?

2. Doc prescribes Amox like you recommended (but this is conflicting because you're saying it's viral?) yet it's resistant and pt doesn't respond.. then what will happen? Pt goes back to the doc 5 days later...doc prescribes something else??


I come from the notion that if we're not going to culture (even if its hard) than we have no business prescribing antibiotics.

How long does it take to get culture back? And what % of culture that comes back negative is actually positive vice versa?

Therefore, I would rather her have gone through a course of amoxicillin or a zpak (since Augmentin was too expensive)

Even though you think 95% of sinusitis is viral? And you're sure zpak will hit the bugs?


and seen that as a treatment failure than waste what is supposed to be a last line fluoroquinolone. This is not even mentioning the large side effect profile that Avelox in particular has in comparison to other quinolones.

Avelox is a last line quinolone? Who says? And what large side effect profile are you talking about?

Just because something is free doesn't mean its an appropriate treatment choice, either.

Yeah? Then for your friend, would it have been better for her to pay for augmentin that wouldn't have worked or use free Avelox that didn't work?

At least she still has her money right?

Can you address every question I raised?

Thank you very much. 👍
 
Good info dude...so basically you just found out that the gram stain can be done fairly quickly yet no accurate ID can be made right? So..what's the purpose of incubation and how long does it take? 1 to 2 days? Then C/S test takes how long?

So...what kind of turn around time are we looking at accurately identify bugs? And how feasible is it to use this information to treat the patient in an outpatient setting?



Not sure whether this information is legit (this is by no means published data) but...

"A portion of the sputum is smeared on a microscope slide for a Gram stain. Another portion is spread over the surface of several different types of culture plates, and placed in an incubator at body temperature for one to two days.

A Gram stain is done by staining the slide with purple and red stains, then examining it under a microscope. Gram staining checks that the specimen does not contain saliva or material from the mouth. If many epithelial (skin) cells and few white blood cells are seen, the specimen is not pure sputum and is not adequate for culture. Depending on laboratory policy, the specimen may be rejected and a new specimen requested. If many white blood cells and bacteria of one type are seen, this is an early confirmation of infection. The color of stain picked up by the bacteria (purple or red), their shape (such as round or rectangular), and their size provide valuable clues as to their identity and helps the physician predict what antibiotics might work best before the entire test is completed. Bacteria that stain purple are called gram-positive; those that stain red are called gram-negative.

During incubation, bacteria present in the sputum sample multiply and will appear on the plates as visible colonies. The bacteria are identified by the appearance of their colonies, by the results of biochemical tests, and through a Gram stain of part of a colony.

A sensitivity test, also called antibiotic susceptibility test, is also done. The bacteria are tested against different antibiotics to determine which will treat the infection by killing the bacteria.

The initial result of the Gram stain is available the same day, or in less than an hour if requested by the physician. An early report, known as a preliminary report, is usually available after one day. This report will tell if any bacteria have been found yet, and if so, their Gram stain appearance--for example, a gram-negative rod, or a gram-positive cocci. The final report, usually available in one to three days, includes complete identification and an estimate of the quantity of the bacteria and a list of the antibiotics to which they are sensitive.

http://www.lifesteps.com/gm/Atoz/ency/sputum_culture_pr.jsp

Probably should have looked for that before posting, after all, it took only 15 minutes or so.
 
Good info dude...so basically you just found out that the gram stain can be done fairly quickly yet no accurate ID can be made right?

Yes, a gram stain tells us very little.

So..what's the purpose of incubation and how long does it take? 1 to 2 days? Then C/S test takes how long?

C/S in about 48 to 72 hrs. Incubation is done to replicate the temperature in the body to see if it will grow.

So...what kind of turn around time are we looking at accurately identify bugs? And how feasible is it to use this information to treat the patient in an outpatient setting?

48-72 hrs. assuming you have a good sample. What I don't have are percentages for inadequate or contaminated samples, even after looking on the internet. Even without that info, I would say that it is decently infeasible.
 
so......did u learn something? what is ur opinion and conclusion?
 
Avelox is a last line quinolone? Who says? And what large side effect profile are you talking about?

OK - this makes me feel slightly better, because I'm reading this whole thread and thinking to myself - is there some terrible side effect specific to Avelox that I don't know about?

My personal experience as a patient and as a mom is that anything that has to be sent out from the MD's office for culture can take up to 3 or 4 days to get results that would actually guide antibiotic therapy. It would be great if it only took 1 day, but not generally how it works.
 
I didn't answer any question. So you're saying the physician knew it was viral infection yet the patient still got the abx? It's after the fact that we think it's viral because Moxi didn't work. Look at the following scenario.

1. Doc dosen't prescribe anything thinking it's viral..but it ends up being Strep Pneumo and it becomes a larger infection. Law Suit?

I highly doubt that. We're dealing with a young and otherwise healthy female. The vast majority of sinus infections will resolve on their own. Also, decongestants may just be as effective as antibiotics in minor sinusitis. Why not try a decongestant/saline therapy and see how the patient responds first?

2. Doc prescribes Amox like you recommended (but this is conflicting because you're saying it's viral?) yet it's resistant and pt doesn't respond.. then what will happen? Pt goes back to the doc 5 days later...doc prescribes something else??

Isn't standard of care for acute sinusitis is to start with amoxicillin first and see where it goes? Step therapy, start with amoxicillin, if it fails you go with Augmentin. Insurance would pay for Augmentin because your using appropriate step therapy. Its not up to me to decide whether or not a patient should be treated with abx, thats up to the MD. However, if they are going to treat the patient, they should use appropriate treatment methods. Just because amoxicillin is not the most effective drug antibiotic available doesn't mean we have to bust out the biggest guns in our arsenal to treat a common ailment. Its comparable to us dropping a nuke on a small town just because we think that infantry may not be enough to get the job done. It just doesn't make sense.

Also, antibiotic resistance, hear of it? Your advocating using top shelf antibiotics just because their free? So we should stop using zpaks and amoxicillin and start wasting our best antibiotics for common ailments? Is this not what got us into this mess in the first place?





How long does it take to get culture back? And what % of culture that comes back negative is actually positive vice versa?

Culturing I agree is not particularly possible in this situation.




Even though you think 95% of sinusitis is viral? And you're sure zpak will hit the bugs?

If were going to waste abx on a more than likely viral infection, I'd like us to not waste our best abx available to treat it.


Avelox is a last line quinolone? Who says? And what large side effect profile are you talking about?

Moxi should only be limited to adults with a proven and serious/life threatening infection. It only approved by the FDA for acute bacterial sinusitis with restricted use, as well as pneumonia. It is more appropriate to use it for multiple drug resistance CAP and intraabdominal infections.
It should also only be used when other treatment options have failed. That sounds like more of a last line drug to me, specifically for acute bacterial sinusitis (which were likely not dealing with). And do I have to answer about quinolones side effect profile? Tendon rupture, prolonged QTc leading to TDP, etc.




Yeah? Then for your friend, would it have been better for her to pay for augmentin that wouldn't have worked or use free Avelox that didn't work?

Amoxicillin failure leads to Augmentin being covered because of step therapy. Every insurance reject I've seen for Augmentin was based off this reasoning.

At least she still has her money right?

I wouldn't take Avelox if my doc gave it to me, even if it was free. Tendon rupture is rare but guess what? Its a helluva nasty side effect.

Every ID pharmacist I've learned from has told me one thing: Quinolones suck.

Can you address every question I raised?

I think I have. As a synopsis, multiple drug resistant bacteria emerged because because of your thought process.

Thank you very much. 👍[/QUOTE]

She was thanking me too. After her Avelox failed to make her feel better, I used pharmacist OTC counseling, told her to buy some pseudoephedrine and drink plenty of fluids. Wouldn't you know it? The Sudafed worked! Love that drug 🙂
 
I highly doubt that. We're dealing with a young and otherwise healthy female. The vast majority of sinus infections will resolve on their own. Also, decongestants may just be as effective as antibiotics in minor sinusitis. Why not try a decongestant/saline therapy and see how the patient responds first?

If she's such a healthy female, why does she have sinusitis? What would've happened if she tried on decongestant? You think she would have been cured? So, decongestant..fail....go back to doc, amox..fail..go back to doc, augmentin, fail..go back to doc Avelox..fail... is that what you want?


Isn't standard of care for acute sinusitis is to start with amoxicillin first and see where it goes? Step therapy, start with amoxicillin, if it fails you go with Augmentin. Insurance would pay for Augmentin because your using appropriate step therapy. Its not up to me to decide whether or not a patient should be treated with abx, thats up to the MD. However, if they are going to treat the patient, they should use appropriate treatment methods. Just because amoxicillin is not the most effective drug antibiotic available doesn't mean we have to bust out the biggest guns in our arsenal to treat a common ailment. Its comparable to us dropping a nuke on a small town just because we think that infantry may not be enough to get the job done. It just doesn't make sense.

What is the typical sensitivity of Amox against strep pneumo? What is the success rate? You've said it yourself above that if MDs are going to treat..they should treat appropriately. Then with the rate of resistance against amox by strep pnumo, does Amox make it appropriate? I'll answer it now. NO.

You really think Avelox is the biggest gun????? Does it cover h-MRSA? Effective against serious Pseudomonas? C-Difficile? VRE?, LRVRE?, Acinetobacters? ESBL producing enterobacter species? Carbapenemase producing gram negatives?

Please...if don't go around saying Avelox is a last resort..it can't even treat simple h-MRSA infection.

You think Avelox is a nuke? Get real. It's damn quinolone not much better than Levaquin except for slight anaerobe coverate? Avelox can't even treat bulk of UTI. I hope you know why. Is Avelox better than Cipro for hospital acquired Pneumonia? Enlighten us.


Also, antibiotic resistance, hear of it? Your advocating using top shelf antibiotics just because their free? So we should stop using zpaks and amoxicillin and start wasting our best antibiotics for common ailments? Is this not what got us into this mess in the first place?

See my comment about Avelox above. Reform your opinion on why Avelox is not the "best" antibiotic.

Ok Einstein. Strep Pneumo...one of the main bugs for sinusitis. What's the typical resistance rate of Strep Pneumo against Avelox and Levaquin?

Culturing I agree is not particularly possible in this situation.

So, now you changed your mind that C/S isn't so feasible after you said if a physician is going to prescribe Abx, they should C/S?




If were going to waste abx on a more than likely viral infection, I'd like us to not waste our best abx available to treat it.

You think Avelox is the best in treating Sinusitis?


Moxi should only be limited to adults with a proven and serious/life threatening infection.

why? I'm talking about serious and life threatening.

It only approved by the FDA for acute bacterial sinusitis with restricted use,

Tell us about the restriction.


as well as pneumonia. It is more appropriate to use it for multiple drug resistance CAP

Why is it more appropriate for MDR CAP?? Why can't it be used for non MDR CAP? And what MDR bacteria are you talking about?

and intraabdominal infections.

Is that right? what are the common bugs for intraab infections? And you're going to use Avelox as the last resort abx for Intraab?

It should also only be used when other treatment options have failed.

Tell us about the other treatment options you just mentioned. What regimen for what infections?


That sounds like more of a last line drug to me,


So you're going to use Avelox as the last line when patient with psedomonal UTI with MRSA penumonia with MIC of 2 and Intraab infection with ESBL enterobacter species..right?


And do I have to answer about quinolones side effect profile? Tendon rupture, prolonged QTc leading to TDP, etc.


You said Avelox has larger side effective profile compared to other quinolones. Are you telling me above side effects aren't associated with quinolones or Avelox has more of it than the other quinolones? Get real.


Amoxicillin failure leads to Augmentin being covered because of step therapy. Every insurance reject I've seen for Augmentin was based off this reasoning.

Big deal...in this instance, she would have gone from Amox to Augmentin to Avelox anyways... so she would have been exposed to 2 other antibiotics on top of Avelox...and you're telling me I'm promoting resistance??:meanie:

At least she still has her money right?

I wouldn't take Avelox if my doc gave it to me, even if it was free. Tendon rupture is rare but guess what? Its a helluva nasty side effect.

And how often does this happen and it doesn't occur with other quinlones?

Every ID pharmacist I've learned from has told me one thing: Quinolones suck.

But wait, you said Avelox and the best abx should be reserved and last resort... the last line. So does it suck or is it so good we have to reserve it? Make up your mind.

I think I have. As a synopsis, multiple drug resistant bacteria emerged because because of your thought process.

Where did I say Avelox was the first line? I haven't said anything what should have been the first therapy. You jumped to that conclusion. I"m picking your brain because you're throwing out substantial claims.."last line therapy" "save the best abx" "larger side effects profile"... so I'm just trying to get you to back up your claims.

Thank you very much. 👍

You welcome.

She was thanking me too. After her Avelox failed to make her feel better, I used pharmacist OTC counseling, told her to buy some pseudoephedrine and drink plenty of fluids. Wouldn't you know it? The Sudafed worked! Love that drug 🙂

How do you know it was the sudafed or if the infection cleared? btw...:bullcrap:
 
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so......did u learn something? what is ur opinion and conclusion?

Yes, I did...that the seas are much murkier than it looks on the surface. One could make a good case either way (antibiotics are overprescribed vs. culturing does not provide us with easy, timely or reliable information.) And that I don't yet know the right questions to ask. 🙂

Thanks for your help.
 
that's all folks!

Yes, I did...that the seas are much murkier than it looks on the surface. One could make a good case either way (antibiotics are overprescribed vs. culturing does not provide us with easy, timely or reliable information.) And that I don't yet know the right questions to ask.
Thanks for your help.
 
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