Average Step 1 for middle of the pack IM residency programs in Northeast?

[Syndicate]

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Any idea what the average step 1 might be around for non-top 20 IM programs in the northeast? Places like BU, tufts, Rochester, Montefiore, Rutgers, Georgetown, GW to name a few.


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[OnePunchBiopsy]

Step 1 score alone won't get you into the NE. National data on step scores for IMED can be found here http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Allopathic-Seniors-2016.pdf

Geographical preferences are more determined based on where you go to med school/did away rotations/got your Letters of Rec. Where your family is located is also a factor.

 

[235009]

Any idea what the average step 1 might be around for non-top 20 IM programs in the northeast? Places like BU, tufts, Rochester, Montefiore, Rutgers, Georgetown, GW to name a few.


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The programs you named vary pretty broadly. You can probably get by with a 210 at some places like GW but would likely need 235-240+ to be considered somewhere like BU.


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[sammiesings]

The programs you named vary pretty broadly. You can probably get by with a 210 at some places like GW but would likely need 235-240+ to be considered somewhere like BU.


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Really? 240? That's like the bottom for nsg. Might be a bit high, no? I think that's what the other poster was getting at-- with Im the rank really starts to depend on other aspects of the app since 210-220 is probably all around sufficient. No?

 

[Slack3r]

Really? 240? That's like the bottom for nsg. Might be a bit high, no? I think that's what the other poster was getting at-- with Im the rank really starts to depend on other aspects of the app since 210-220 is probably all around sufficient. No?

You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, do you?

 

[sammiesings]

You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, do you?

Excuse me? What's your problem dude? Lol it's Friday night. Go jack off or something if you have this much pent up aggression to be so rude. AND nothing better to do right now. Geez.

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, do you?

don't you love it when newly accepted premeds chime in on matters they know nothing about

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

Excuse me? What's your problem dude? Lol it's Friday night. Go jack off or something if you have this much pent up aggression to be so rude. AND nothing better to do right now. Geez.

Go back to pre allo until august

 

[Slack3r]

Excuse me? What's your problem dude? Lol it's Friday night. Go jack off or something if you have this much pent up aggression to be so rude. AND nothing better to do right now. Geez.

Your nonsensical and ill-informed statements are my problem. You haven't even started school yet, try not to get in over your head.

 

[sammiesings]

Go back to pre allo until august

@Slack3r

Ohhhhhh burn.

Not exactly sure why y'all are being such haters given that I framed everything I said as a question. The only things I know about matching come from working directly for a pd for an academic nsg program. Clearly, his advice has been pretty biased/narrow so yeah, as an incoming student I'm trying to learn how other specialties work. And having sorted through many years of nsg apps and how we internally cut off at 230, I assumed IM cut offs are lower.

Must be nice knowing everything though. So very sorry to be such a lowly accepted student 🙄

 

[Psai]

@Slack3r

Ohhhhhh burn.

Not exactly sure why y'all are being such haters given that I framed everything I said as a question. The only things I know about matching come from working directly for a pd for an academic nsg program. Clearly, his advice has been pretty biased/narrow so yeah, as an incoming student I'm trying to learn how other specialties work. And having sorted through many years of nsg apps and how we internally cut off at 230, I assumed IM cut offs are lower.

Must be nice knowing everything though. So very sorry to be such a lowly accepted student 🙄

Quit while youre behind

 

[Dwan]

Really? 240? That's like the bottom for nsg. Might be a bit high, no? I think that's what the other poster was getting at-- with Im the rank really starts to depend on other aspects of the app since 210-220 is probably all around sufficient. No?

The average matched applicant to IM has a 233 step 1 and 246 step 2 (look at the charting outcomes listed). That average includes hundreds of IM programs, many of which are bad. If you want to aim for good programs being 20 points below average, you likely won't have a good time.

 

[W19]

The programs you named vary pretty broadly. You can probably get by with a 210 at some places like GW but would likely need 235-240+ to be considered somewhere like BU.


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hmmm.

 

[Syndicate]

How much does coming from a good school matter? If IM average is 233, can I get by with a high 220s score coming from a highly ranked school?

 

[235009]

Really? 240? That's like the bottom for nsg. Might be a bit high, no? I think that's what the other poster was getting at-- with Im the rank really starts to depend on other aspects of the app since 210-220 is probably all around sufficient. No?

Surprise! IM is a lot more competitive than pre-meds think because the impression you get from SDN is that any bottom of the class US MD with a pulse gets an IM residency as a consolation prize. If you look at competitive programs and/or desirable locations the required stats are comparable to derm.

For the sake of full disclosure I was a resident at one of the more competitive programs you named and had just under 250 on step 1. Got zero invites from "top" programs with that score.

How much does coming from a good school matter? If IM average is 233, can I get by with a high 220s score coming from a highly ranked school?

This is a caveat. You'll get a break coming from a top school like Harvard or Hopkins. You'll also get a break if you're a URM. How much of a break will really depend on the rest of your application and how starry eyed the reviewer gets when reading your med school's name.


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[W19]

Surprise! IM is a lot more competitive than pre-meds think because the impression you get from SDN is that any bottom of the class US MD with a pulse gets an IM residency as a consolation prize. If you look at competitive programs and/or desirable locations the required stats are comparable to derm.

For the sake of full disclosure I was a resident at one of the more competitive programs you named and had just under 250 on step 1. Got zero invites from "top" programs with that score.



This is a caveat. You'll get a break coming from a top school like Harvard or Hopkins. You'll also get a break if you're a URM. How much of a break will really depend on the rest of your application and how starry eyed the reviewer gets when reading your med school's name.


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Isn't that the case if (a big if here) the applicant is willing to go anywhere?

 

[PhillyMed777]

If you look at competitive programs and/or desirable locations the required stats are comparable to derm.

Completely wrong with regards to desirable locations. Have had many friends match into Boston, NY, SF, DC programs for IM. The caliber is not near Derm level with regards to Step scores, grades, Percent AOA, and number of publications. For Top 10 IM programs i will agree with you this is true.

 

[235009]

Isn't that the case if (a big if here) the applicant is willing to go anywhere?

I'm not saying there aren't programs where all you need is a pulse and eventual passing score on step 1. The problem is that pre-meds and early med students tend to generalize this to the whole specialty and don't appreciate the heterogeneity.


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[Anicetus]

Isn't that the case if (a big if here) the applicant is willing to go anywhere?

That "Anywhere" won't be in the NE anywhere desirable.

 

[235009]

That "Anywhere" won't be in the NE anywhere desirable.

That's not really true either. There are plenty of undesirable/malignant community programs in the NE, particularly in NYC, that are fairly easy to break into.

 

[Anicetus]

That's not really true either. There are plenty of undesirable/malignant community programs in the NE, particularly in NYC, that are fairly easy to break into.

You mean the ones that will close down by the time we graduate or the ones that are 100% funded by Caribbean schools and keep us from obtaining fellowships?

 

[Shams al Deen]

What do you mean by "top programs"? Like top 10 from this doximity ranking, or all 24? I imagine the top 10 programs average like 250+. Maybe all of those top 24 do as well idk.

 

[235009]

What do you mean by "top programs"? Like top 10 from this doximity ranking, or all 24? I imagine the top 10 programs average like 250+. Maybe all of those top 24 do as well idk.

Doximity rankings are total trash. Top programs is a tier that includes the likes of MGH, Brigham, Penn , hopkins, etc. There is no physical list to refer to.


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[Señor S]

What do you mean by "top programs"? Like top 10 from this doximity ranking, or all 24? I imagine the top 10 programs average like 250+. Maybe all of those top 24 do as well idk.

Nobody knows for sure but I would guess almost all of those places have average Step scores in the high 230s/low 240s at least. Also contra MeatTornado I think a 210 Step 1 is not going to get much love from a place like GW, a university program in a hot location like DC is going to be competitive even if its reputation isn't the greatest.

 

[Syndicate]

thoughts about average step 1 for georgetown IM program?

 

[235009]

Nobody knows for sure but I would guess almost all of those places have average Step scores in the high 230s/low 240s at least. Also contra MeatTornado I think a 210 Step 1 is not going to get much love from a place like GW, a university program in a hot location like DC is going to be competitive even if its reputation isn't the greatest.

thoughts about average step 1 for georgetown IM program?

Both GT and GW aren't as competitive as you'd think they'd be. There's a slew of reasons for this including clinical experience, low pay relative to cost of living, etc. Both have IMGs and/or DOs. GT is considered mid-ish tier while GW is considered low-tier.


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[Señor S]

Both GT and GW aren't as competitive as you'd think they'd be. There's a slew of reasons for this including clinical experience, low pay relative to cost of living, etc. Both have IMGs and/or DOs. GT is considered mid-ish tier while GW is considered low-tier.

I hear you but 210 for GW? There are programs known to me with mediocre reputations in absolutely awful locations for whom an applicant with a 210 would be very iffy. DC especially is such a mecca for white-collar jobs for the under-30 crowd that a place like GW is going to get apps and interest just because someone's spouse already has a job there. IMGs and DOs are not that uncommon in mid-tier IM programs where a 210 would still struggle to get an interview much less match.

I don't want to get too hung up on this point because I otherwise agree with everything you said. OP, assume you will need to be a solidly above-average student to match to most of the places you listed. There is a lot of competition in IM even outside the MGHs and UCSFs of the world.

 

[PhillyMed777]

Everyone's forgetting how strongly tied home med school and IM programs are (regional as well!). It's common for an otherwise average Harvard med student to match at an excellent Harvard IM program. And for programs that are not top, they are VERY loose with what they look for specially for home and regional students. In these cases, it is super forgiving.

 

[nets445]

Everyone's forgetting how strongly tied home med school and IM programs are (regional as well!). It's common for an otherwise average Harvard med student to match at an excellent Harvard IM program. And for programs that are not top, they are VERY loose with what they look for specially for home and regional students. In these cases, it is super forgiving.

So home institution and having family in the area does actually help a lot? I have heard that it is minimally considered


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[Señor S]

So home institution and having family in the area does actually help a lot? I have heard that it is minimally considered

Home institution seems to be pretty big. Family in the area is I think much more iffy; where it probably helps is with more mid-tier places who might worry that you're just carpet bombing applications. My sense is that if e.g. Rush and UIC see that you have some ties to Chicago they're more likely to give you an interview, but U of C and Northwestern probably don't care as much.

I'm still not sure what point Tri273 is trying to make. Obviously if your goal is just to get *a* spot in IM then that's easy to do as long as you're a USMD with no failures; every big city has enough low-end community programs that you're sure to find someone to take you. But IM isn't Derm or Ortho and almost nobody is just looking to get *a* spot. In reality, most applicants want to go to a well regarded program in a place they like that can set them up well for whatever they decide to do next. Most IM residents want to subspecialize. Asking what it takes to do IM is a bit like asking what it takes to afford to live in NYC; there can be quite a range depending on whether you mean Tribeca or the Bronx.

 

[PhillyMed777]

So home institution and having family in the area does actually help a lot? I have heard that it is minimally considered


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Yes, home institution is HUGE in IM.
By regional consideration, what I mean is that if you go Uchicago, you'll have a easier shot at getting into northwestern. If you go to Einstein, you'll have an easier shot getting into Mt. Sinai, for example. So if you are looking at average scores for step, it doesn't really make a ton of sense because it includes folks who like this for whom the standards are flexible.

I'm not referring to family/friends. I don't know what impact this makes for IM. Have to ask someone else for that.

 

[jw3600]

Excuse me? What's your problem dude? Lol it's Friday night. Go jack off or something if you have this much pent up aggression to be so rude. AND nothing better to do right now. Geez.

This is quite the mature post.

I wish SDN had some sort of demerit system for spouting off nonsense when you haven't the slightest clue about what you're talking about.