Away rotation advice..

[lesterfreamon]

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1) Is one home, two clinical aways kind of the default now?
2) Anyone have any experience with research aways?
3) Is it bad to do all aways in a geographically similar are. I am from the southeast, I would do all of my aways in the southeast. I have heard it is notoriously difficult to match into northeast and westcoast programs from my school in the south, so would I figure aways there may be a waste of time.

Thanks!

 

[asmallchild]

1) Is one home, two clinical aways kind of the default now?
2) Anyone have any experience with research aways?
3) Is it bad to do all aways in a geographically similar are. I am from the southeast, I would do all of my aways in the southeast. I have heard it is notoriously difficult to match into northeast and westcoast programs from my school in the south, so would I figure aways there may be a waste of time.

Thanks!

1) In speaking with current medical students, that does seem to be the trend. If you are a superstar on paper, I would recommend 1 home, 1 away unless you can really summon the enthusiasm to look as fresh on the 3rd rotation as you did on the 1st

2) I haven't personally had any but among friends who have done one, highly recommended particularly if the research division is well-integrated with the derm department. It's a nice way to get another derm rotation and is probably a nice break in the schedule

3) Not necessarily. If you are trying to maximize your chances of matching in the southeast, that's a good strategy. If you have any interest in the the northeast or west coast, it would be worthwhile to rotate there. I do agree if your stats are not "competitive" for those areas, you are probably best served targeting your home region and making sure you nail the away rotations

 

[DermViser]

1) Is one home, two clinical aways kind of the default now?
2) Anyone have any experience with research aways?
3) Is it bad to do all aways in a geographically similar are. I am from the southeast, I would do all of my aways in the southeast. I have heard it is notoriously difficult to match into northeast and westcoast programs from my school in the south, so would I figure aways there may be a waste of time.

Thanks!

1) I think 2 clinical aways are good if you're at a medical school that isn't in the top tier or esp. if you don't have a home derm dept. (3 aways in this case)

2) Honestly, IMHO I think research away rotations are a waste of time. They're a great way to get a breather in during clinical rotations, which tend to be 100% clinics. But faculty aren't fooled, as they all know that good research (not case reports), esp. one leading to publication, takes time, definitely more than 1 month. I question the quality of a letter from a research faculty member, UNLESS you are able to finish it within the month (I'm saying draft handed in) to get a letter. In this scenario, the faculty member is likely to go largely based off your academic prowess anyways, as your publication will come long after you've matched.

3) Since you're from the SE, I would only rotate in the NE and West coast, if only bc you have a dire need to match there and thus show your interest. I agree, if you don't have the academic prowess (board scores, high class rank, Honors on nearly all clinical rotations), I wouldn't waste my time, as those programs have tons of applicants with stellar pedigrees and built up CVs from which to choose from.

I think too many students make the mistake of shooting too high, when it comes to choosing the institution they're audition rotating at, so be realistic. Look at the residents that the derm program takes, and look at where these people graduated from etc.

 

[lesterfreamon]

Thanks a ton for the advice, much appreciated!

 

[Transformers]

Thanks a ton for the advice, much appreciated!

Kind of wanted to build off this...great questions OP. I am actually taking a year off to do derm research (in btwn M3 and M4) and was in a fortunate position to have the time to plan things out. My research will have a good amount of downtime and it's flexible enough I can take months off now in the interest of away rotations.

As far as rotations. I was planning on 2 research rotation, 2 aways, and 1 home.

1.) Regarding the "research aways"...I agree, they are less stressful vs a real rotation. However, I was wondering, if you they would be useful if a.) if I can start on a project prior to starting the away (obv nothing basic science or lab-based) and b.) if it is something I can work on directly with the chairman/big name with the goal of receiving a personal letter from that individual.

2.) Regarding aways, can I do them as early as March just to space them out so I don't get burned out and be fresh?

3.) Regarding LORs, can all 5 be dermatology letters (preferably from big names)?

4.) As far as the aways themselves, I am by no means in the super competitive range (the 260s, AOAs, honors, etc...) other than perhaps coming from a good med school so I wanted to be realistic. Is it better to be regional and put all my eggs into lesser known derm programs?

 

[DermViser]

Kind of wanted to build off this...great questions OP. I am actually taking a year off to do derm research (in btwn M3 and M4) and was in a fortunate position to have the time to plan things out. My research will have a good amount of downtime and it's flexible enough I can take months off now in the interest of away rotations.

As far as rotations. I was planning on 2 research rotation, 2 aways, and 1 home.

1.) Regarding the "research aways"...I agree, they are less stressful vs a real rotation. However, I was wondering, if you they would be useful if a.) if I can start on a project prior to starting the away (obv nothing basic science or lab-based) and b.) if it is something I can work on directly with the chairman/big name with the goal of receiving a personal letter from that individual.

2.) Regarding aways, can I do them as early as March just to space them out so I don't get burned out and be fresh?

3.) Regarding LORs, can all 5 be dermatology letters (preferably from big names)?

4.) As far as the aways themselves, I am by no means in the super competitive range (the 260s, AOAs, honors, etc...) other than perhaps coming from a good med school so I wanted to be realistic. Is it better to be regional and put all my eggs into lesser known derm programs?

How are you able to do audition electives at other institutions when you're on a research year? Usually you have to take a leave of absence from your school to do a research year in med school, and so you're not covered by your school's malpractice.

 

[asmallchild]

Kind of wanted to build off this...great questions OP. I am actually taking a year off to do derm research (in btwn M3 and M4) and was in a fortunate position to have the time to plan things out. My research will have a good amount of downtime and it's flexible enough I can take months off now in the interest of away rotations.

As far as rotations. I was planning on 2 research rotation, 2 aways, and 1 home.

1.) Regarding the "research aways"...I agree, they are less stressful vs a real rotation. However, I was wondering, if you they would be useful if a.) if I can start on a project prior to starting the away (obv nothing basic science or lab-based) and b.) if it is something I can work on directly with the chairman/big name with the goal of receiving a personal letter from that individual.

2.) Regarding aways, can I do them as early as March just to space them out so I don't get burned out and be fresh?

3.) Regarding LORs, can all 5 be dermatology letters (preferably from big names)?

4.) As far as the aways themselves, I am by no means in the super competitive range (the 260s, AOAs, honors, etc...) other than perhaps coming from a good med school so I wanted to be realistic. Is it better to be regional and put all my eggs into lesser known derm programs?

1) Research rotations are infinitely more productive if you can start on the project prior to arrival. I was able to parlay research I had done earlier in medical school into an actual rotation during 4th year. This allowed me to continue my project, nearly complete it (on the verge of publication), have it count for 4th year credit, and got a letter of recommendation from the big chair out of it.

2) Aways that early are a bad idea, do the aways with all the other 4th years

3) That would be preferred, derm letters from bigwigs are going to be the most helpful part of your application package

 

[HeyyDoc]

Don't do your aways too early...one of the greatest things you gain from rotating at a different institution is that they get to know you and can put a face/person to your stellar application. If you do it in March not only is everyone going to be confused but the memory of you may not last long enough to help you in the selection process.

Spend that extra time you have attending meetings, presenting, networking, publishing, volunteering at derm camp and buffing that application!

 

[dermathalon]

Doing aways early is fine and it depends how you do it. People will still remember you even if you do it out into April/May. I encourage that highly so that you are on the rotation when it is not full of other rotators. You get to be known a little better but you are also under the scrutiny a little more so you have to perform well. You will also have more time to take projects to publication in time for the ERAS application. In doing so, you'll increase your chance for a strong letter of recommendation.

I rotated in May/June before all the other rotators showed up and it was totally fine. Every single person remembered me at the interview.

 

[scarletgirl777]

How are you able to do audition electives at other institutions when you're on a research year? Usually you have to take a leave of absence from your school to do a research year in med school, and so you're not covered by your school's malpractice.

A lot of schools will allow their students to do an audition elsewhere during a year off and will cover your malpractice during that time even though you are doing a year off. However, there are some schools that will prevent year off students from other schools to do aways simply because their own students in that situation can't do aways, so even if your home school can document that your malpractice is covered you will have to check that the place you want to do an away will allow you to do so.

 

[dermie1985]

This thread is helpful. Just a few questions.

(1) I thought we were limited to 4 letters of recommendation on ERAS (not 5). I was planning on 3 derm + 1 non-derm

(2) Given my schedule, I can't complete any away rotations until mid-September/October. Is it worth doing rotations then? The goal would be more to get my name out to programs in other cities, not necessarily for a rec. Is it worth it? My alternative is doing paid research for a few months while I do interviews and saving oodles of money (16k+) on tuition. I really don't want to go unmatched, so would prefer to maximize chances.

 

[asmallchild]

This thread is helpful. Just a few questions.

(1) I thought we were limited to 4 letters of recommendation on ERAS (not 5). I was planning on 3 derm + 1 non-derm

(2) Given my schedule, I can't complete any away rotations until mid-September/October. Is it worth doing rotations then? The goal would be more to get my name out to programs in other cities, not necessarily for a rec. Is it worth it? My alternative is doing paid research for a few months while I do interviews and saving oodles of money (16k+) on tuition. I really don't want to go unmatched, so would prefer to maximize chances.

I'm probably too far out to answer #1. Unless you are applying to the very competitive/cush prelim programs, a non-derm letter is not essential. The very competitive prelim programs probably would like an internal medicine attending to write one of the letters

Mid-September/October is still fine for away rotations. Most interview offers are not generated til later in the interview season. It probably would be too late to get a letter from those programs however.

 

[DermViser]

Don't do your aways too early...one of the greatest things you gain from rotating at a different institution is that they get to know you and can put a face/person to your stellar application. If you do it in March not only is everyone going to be confused but the memory of you may not last long enough to help you in the selection process.

Spend that extra time you have attending meetings, presenting, networking, publishing, volunteering at derm camp and buffing that application!

I agree, March is way too early. Match Day happens that month, so everyone's just enjoying the previous match season being over with and getting to party at the AAD meeting.

 

[1dayatatime]

is it a bad idea to schedule your home derm rotation (1 month), 1 away derm month, and 2nd away derm month back-to-back? i was told by my advisor to do this for June-July (1st away)-August and then take the first 2 weeks of september off so I could focus on ERAS and step 2 studying.

 

[DermViser]

is it a bad idea to schedule your home derm rotation (1 month), 1 away derm month, and 2nd away derm month back-to-back? i was told by my advisor to do this for June-July (1st away)-August and then take the first 2 weeks of september off so I could focus on ERAS and step 2 studying.

It will be a little tiring near the end bc you have to be on your game for 3 months (June-July-August), but no it's not a bad idea at all. You can also work on your application and personal statement during those audition months as well on the weekends, especially, so it's not mutually exclusive.

 

[doctor85]

Having just went through the away rotation circuit, I'd encourage applicants to look into the 2 or 3 week aways that are offered through VSAS. 4 weeks can be a long and expensive experience even if it's a good program. Honestly, after 2 weeks, the rotation has served its purpose - the program knows who you are; you know the program and residents; you get a feel for the city and clinic; you demonstrate your interest in the program… You can squeeze in more rotations and burn less energy doing it. Just one strategy.

People will warn against doing aways back-to-back. The most exhausting part of the process is relocating to a new program, city, and EMR. That part sucks, especially if it's an unfamiliar place. But the derm work isn't grueling like ortho or surgery away sub-Is would be, so take those warnings with a grain of salt. The 8-5, Monday thru Friday derm clinics with hour lunches with residents and no weekends or call don't exactly wear you out. A lot of the time you are basically shadowing anyway. The real challenge is trying to stay awake! 🙂

I think aways are incredibly useful if you know that you're good (not a superstar) clinically and are easy to get along with.

 

[asmallchild]

Having just went through the away rotation circuit, I'd encourage applicants to look into the 2 or 3 week aways that are offered through VSAS. 4 weeks can be a long and expensive experience even if it's a good program. Honestly, after 2 weeks, the rotation has served its purpose - the program knows who you are; you know the program and residents; you get a feel for the city and clinic; you demonstrate your interest in the program… You can squeeze in more rotations and burn less energy doing it. Just one strategy.

People will warn against doing aways back-to-back. The most exhausting part of the process is relocating to a new program, city, and EMR. That part sucks, especially if it's an unfamiliar place. But the derm work isn't grueling like ortho or surgery away sub-Is would be, so take those warnings with a grain of salt. The 8-5, Monday thru Friday derm clinics with hour lunches with residents and no weekends or call don't exactly wear you out. A lot of the time you are basically shadowing anyway. The real challenge is trying to stay awake! 🙂

I think aways are incredibly useful if you know that you're good (not a superstar) clinically and are easy to get along with.

Good advice, I would add two items:

1) The 2 week aways aren't going to be helpful if you are looking for letters. Most will refuse to write it for a student who has only been on service for 2 weeks and you probably don't want the generic one from the attending who will write one for you after 2 weeks. I agree it is a very useful tool if you are just interested in learning more about a clinic and getting your name out there.

2) It's not the hours that will grind you down. It's the "constantly being on" aspect. That one time you look bored, that one time you glance at your phone, that one time you interject something you shouldn't have can end up costing you. I agree it's a good risk to take if you are missing something on your CV. If you happen to be a "superstar" on paper, stacking away atop away isn't going to help and may actually hurt you.

 

[PatsyStone]

I encourage all of you to continue to fill out info about the programs you did aways at in the GoogleDoc so that future applicants can get a better sense of their options

 

[dermx]

I encourage all of you to continue to fill out info about the programs you did aways at in the GoogleDoc so that future applicants can get a better sense of their options

Could you please remind me which GoogleDoc you are talking about? Thank you!

 

[doctor85]

2) It's not the hours that will grind you down. It's the "constantly being on" aspect. That one time you look bored, that one time you glance at your phone, that one time you interject something you shouldn't have can end up costing you. I agree it's a good risk to take if you are missing something on your CV. If you happen to be a "superstar" on paper, stacking away atop away isn't going to help and may actually hurt you.

In reply to your 2nd point - Putting on a show does get tiring and I'm glad that's done. Determining whose applications will be viewed as the superstars by the residency programs is nearly impossible. I would caution people from making the assumption that they are in that class, even if your mom has told you that you're special your entire life. I know I have been surprised, both good and bad, with the programs I received interviews from and I applied all over. Many peers have had similar experiences. What school you come from, how your personal statement comes off, how many classmates are applying with you into derm, who in the dept happens to review your application that day…Those factors can turn your 3.5 years of med school excellence into a generic rejection email where you're CC'ed with all the other poor souls who had great numbers but didn't make the cut.

It's about getting quality interviews and I think you interview so much better when you've been there, met the faculty and residents and understand how the program functions. Even if it isn't perfect or your ideal program, there's something comforting (for both applicant and program) about the entity you know as opposed to the 10 random programs (or applicants) that you only saw for literally 4-6 hours and a pre-interview social. Many people on interview day are merely there because "it's derm and you take what you can get and go on any and all interviews that you get no matter what because any program is better than not matching in derm (a philosophy I strictly adhere to BTW)." Programs know this and so they seem skeptical about those without a clear commitment to the program/location. The most common interview questions I get- Why this program? Why this city? Why not [home program/hometown]? Do you think you would be happy here? Doing an away allows you to answer those questions with experience and sincerity.

 

[asmallchild]

In reply to your 2nd point - Putting on a show does get tiring and I'm glad that's done. Determining whose applications will be viewed as the superstars by the residency programs is nearly impossible. I would caution people from making the assumption that they are in that class, even if your mom has told you that you're special your entire life. I know I have been surprised, both good and bad, with the programs I received interviews from and I applied all over. Many peers have had similar experiences. What school you come from, how your personal statement comes off, how many classmates are applying with you into derm, who in the dept happens to review your application that day…Those factors can turn your 3.5 years of med school excellence into a generic rejection email where you're CC'ed with all the other poor souls who had great numbers but didn't make the cut.

It's about getting quality interviews and I think you interview so much better when you've been there, met the faculty and residents and understand how the program functions. Even if it isn't perfect or your ideal program, there's something comforting (for both applicant and program) about the entity you know as opposed to the 10 random programs (or applicants) that you only saw for literally 4-6 hours and a pre-interview social. Many people on interview day are merely there because "it's derm and you take what you can get and go on any and all interviews that you get no matter what because any program is better than not matching in derm (a philosophy I strictly adhere to BTW)." Programs know this and so they seem skeptical about those without a clear commitment to the program/location. The most common interview questions I get- Why this program? Why this city? Why not [home program/hometown]? Do you think you would be happy here? Doing an away allows you to answer those questions with experience and sincerity.

Agreed, but I think the opposite also happens. Students (me included) tend to think they're a lot hotter clinically then they really are. I can't tell you how many "superstars" on paper absolutely bombed their away rotation (or home rotation in some cases)

I think the norm is to do at least one away now. Two if you don't have a home department. Three if there's something missing on your application (weak grades, weak step 1, weak research, etc)

If you happen to be AOA with a step 1 score in the 270s, I don't think you can be cavalier about the matching process and assume you'll match. But similarly doing 3+ aways will probably start to become less and less fruitful. I'd recommend focusing on one to two programs where you really have strong interest and where you'll want to have a solid answer to the question, "Why our program?"

 

[doctor85]

Agreed, but I think the opposite also happens. Students (me included) tend to think they're a lot hotter clinically then they really are. I can't tell you how many "superstars" on paper absolutely bombed their away rotation (or home rotation in some cases)

I think the norm is to do at least one away now. Two if you don't have a home department. Three if there's something missing on your application (weak grades, weak step 1, weak research, etc)

If you happen to be AOA with a step 1 score in the 270s, I don't think you can be cavalier about the matching process and assume you'll match. But similarly doing 3+ aways will probably start to become less and less fruitful. I'd recommend focusing on one to two programs where you really have strong interest and where you'll want to have a solid answer to the question, "Why our program?"

Well said. I also encourage people to look at their 3rd year clerkship evaluations to see what kind of subjective feedback you got over the course of the year. If you pretty consistently got outstanding reviews across a variety of specialties and clinical settings, then you will probably do very well on your aways. If you're average or slightly above, then use a little more caution.

I also agree that you can do too many aways especially if you're just going to random programs that you don't care much about. You won't be excited to work there and live there and it will show.