BA/MD 7-year accelerated NJIT/SGU Program?

[glenvorian]

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[Beth_W737]

I would avoid Carribean if he can get grades/MCAT/extracurriculars to do US MD or DO. IMGs have a tougher time with residency.

 

[Euxox]

I need some advice regarding the 7 year accelerated med program at NJIT/SGU! My brother got accepted to this program and I'm helping him do a little research to decide whether or not he should attend.

In this program, you do a B.A. in biology or B.S. in engineering for 3 years at NJIT, do 4th and 5th years at St. George, and return to New Jersey for the 6th and 7th years for your clinical rotations. I believe the medical degree is awarded by SGU, not NJIT.

I'm a little hesitant because I have heard that Caribbean schools don't have the greatest reputation in the medical field. Also heard that residency options after finishing become limited in the sense that it's harder to specialize. And are you considered a foreign doctor after graduating? Would you have to take some sort of exam to be able to practice/do residency in the U.S.?

If he was applying as a normal applicant after Bachelor's, then that would be a different story but since this is an accelerated program, I can't help but consider the time and money saved here. Not to mention avoiding the hassle of applying to med school and interviews and MCAT and all that. I just want to know if this program is worth it and that my brother doesn't screw himself over in the long run.

Pardon me if these seem like basic questions! I'm not in the medical field and while I have a fairly good idea of med school admissions from friends who have applied/are applying, I'm clueless as to what happens after med school.

I am shocked and appalled that any US university would offer a seven year med program in conjunction with a Caribbean school. I'm even more shocked that NJIT of all colleges would do this, considering the fact that they already have a seven year program with Rutgers - NJMS. IMO, the only explanation is that this is a blatant money grab. SGU is paying them for this and they are throwing their graduates under the bus for the money.

Do NOT go Caribbean under any circumstances. Caribbean schools are expensive. They have low graduation rates. Even for those who graduate, only about 50% match into US residencies. Even for those who match into US residency, the majority are unable to match into their specialty or program of choice.

Also, that one year of tuition you save is undergrad tuition, not med school tuition: You do the BS in three years and the MD in four. If your brother wants to save a year's tuition, it's not all that hard to finish a regular Bachelor's degree in three years. He doesn't have to enroll in a seven year program to do that.

More info:
Be Careful About Caribbean Medical Schools
MD vs DO vs Caribbean: Hard Facts and Statistics
Carib Schools and Future Residency Problems
The Cost of Caribbean Medical School

 

[487806]

I am shocked and appalled that any US university would offer a seven year med program in conjunction with a Caribbean school. I'm even more shocked that NJIT of all colleges would do this, considering the fact that they already have a seven year program with Rutgers - NJMS. IMO, the only explanation is that this is a blatant money grab. SGU is paying them for this and they are throwing their graduates under the bus for the money.

I agree. This is surprising and shameful on NJIT's part.

Wow, this actually is legit

OP, tell your brother to avoid that program. Applying the traditional route or what @Euxox said is better

 

[Helper3]

NJIT gives excellent aid to those with half decent statistics - do all 4 years there and then apply out yourself to both MD and DO programs and you would be better off than SGU

 

[SN12357]

Well, my opinion of NJIT just plummeted.

OP, any advantages of saving a year (and they are relatively few) is completely wiped out by the intense negatives of going to a Caribbean school. If your brother is a decent applicant he will absolutely be better off going a more traditional path. If he wants to save money then graduate undergrad in three years and work during a gap year; or do four years of undergrad on a slightly reduced schedule and work part-time. There are many options. Caribbean schools are a last resort for desperate applicants, not something a kid in high school should be considering.

 

[A7X]

I know many students at NJIT (though I am not a student there) & some who were accepted and went through that program, and can confidently advise your brother not to matriculate into that program, mainly for the reasons listed above. I know people in that program who have left it or are extremely unsatisfied. Conversely, I do know people who have done well in that program, but they are in the minority, and were unable to land the specialties of their choice.

 

[glenvorian]

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[DokterMom]

Caribbean Medical School:

• You will get to attend
• After which, you might get to be a doctor
• So 100% chance of being charged a lot of money with a <50% chance of being able to secure a residency and pay if back.

US Medical School:

• You might get to attend
• And if you do, you will be a doctor
• So a 45% chance of being charged a lot of money with a 96% chance of being able to graduate, secure a residency and pay it back.

So actually, either way, your odds of becoming a doctor and practicing in the US are just under 50%. But the US way, you don't actually have to part with the 4 years/$250,000 if they don't accept you.

 

[KonsieRav]

I need some advice regarding the 7 year accelerated med program at NJIT/SGU! My brother got accepted to this program and I'm helping him do a little research to decide whether or not he should attend.

In this program, you do a B.A. in biology or B.S. in engineering for 3 years at NJIT, do 4th and 5th years at St. George, and return to New Jersey for the 6th and 7th years for your clinical rotations. I believe the medical degree is awarded by SGU, not NJIT.

I'm a little hesitant because I have heard that Caribbean schools don't have the greatest reputation in the medical field. Also heard that residency options after finishing become limited in the sense that it's harder to specialize. And are you considered a foreign doctor after graduating? Would you have to take some sort of exam to be able to practice/do residency in the U.S.?

If he was applying as a normal applicant after Bachelor's, then that would be a different story but since this is an accelerated program, I can't help but consider the time and money saved here. Not to mention avoiding the hassle of applying to med school and interviews and MCAT and all that. I just want to know if this program is worth it and that my brother doesn't screw himself over in the long run.

Pardon me if these seem like basic questions! I'm not in the medical field and while I have a fairly good idea of med school admissions from friends who have applied/are applying, I'm clueless as to what happens after med school.

Caribbean schools "as a whole" do not have the best reputation, much like US congress "as a whole" does not have a good reputation, but some constituents are reputable. SGU is on par with DO schools in the United States and very likely (just in terms of facilities and research) better than some lower tier MD schools. The stigma comes with the IMG label "as a whole". Out of all IMG countries, Grenada has the second highest match rate behind Israel. This year they hit 75%, which is on par or slightly above the overall osteopathic rate (if not slightly below). ALWAYS keep in mind that the low IMG match rate on the ECFMG report also includes abysmal match rates from countries like Russia or Egypt.

SGU grads have been getting better and better residencies every year because their school is dishing out loads of cash to make connections with US clinical programs, the downside of this is massive increases (4-5% per year) in tuition. But in the end, it's what you make of it. In the long run. When in doubt, always reference the ECFMG report and under NO circumstances accept anyones opinions or facts without verifying.

You're also going to have to work harder to be as competitive as your US counterparts: for instance, mean score for anesthesia match was a 219 for US grads while for US-IMGs it was 234 (wide gap), but then again that is looking at things "as a whole."

Good Luck

 

[Beth_W737]

75% is no way on par with DO match. We matched 77% in allo match and that doesn't include those who matched in osteo. For my own school I'd guess our match rate overall is in the 90s. Try to go US MD/DO if at all possible, residency spots are only going to get more competitive for IMGs. Good luck

 

[KonsieRav]

75% is no way on par with DO match. We matched 77% in allo match and that doesn't include those who matched in osteo. For my own school I'd guess our match rate overall is in the 90s. Try to go US MD/DO if at all possible, residency spots are only going to get more competitive for IMGs. Good luck

2013 Match Rate Osteo 75.4%.

I'm not knocking DO, they are fantastic physicians and have a wide spectrum of opportunities available to them. In many cases, they fare better than MDs. Let's take a look at the AOA stats in-depth:

One thing I love about AOA is that they publish by school, much more honest than NRMP.

For example: ATSU has 56.5% not participating (likely NRMP buffs), which means 43.5% of the students will be participating. Assume 100 students participate:

Let's look at the 56.5 students (assume we have half of a student, a midget if you will 😛 ). 75.4% of them match MD residencies.

Now we have 42.6 students going MD (again assume a midget, a slightly bigger one) and the rest of the 43.5 students go the AOA route:

ATSU could not match 13.9% of them, which gives a AOA match rate of 86.1%.

Average that with the 75.4%, you get 80.75%, so there's that added benefit of having the DO route.

Then again, the average match is about 88.2% for DO, so pull that number up and you're pushing about 82-83% overall.

 

[pietachok]

2013 Match Rate Osteo 75.4%.

I'm not knocking DO, they are fantastic physicians and have a wide spectrum of opportunities available to them. In many cases, they fare better than MDs. Let's take a look at the AOA stats in-depth:

One thing I love about AOA is that they publish by school, much more honest than NRMP.

For example: ATSU has 56.5% not participating (likely NRMP buffs), which means 43.5% of the students will be participating. Assume 100 students participate:

Let's look at the 56.5 students (assume we have half of a student, a midget if you will 😛 ). 75.4% of them match MD residencies.

Now we have 42.6 students going MD (again assume a midget, a slightly bigger one) and the rest of the 43.5 students go the AOA route:

ATSU could not match 13.9% of them, which gives a AOA match rate of 86.1%.

Average that with the 75.4%, you get 80.75%, so there's that added benefit of having the DO route.

Then again, the average match is about 88.2% for DO, so pull that number up and you're pushing about 82-83% overall.

The data you're referring to are only counting matches to AOA programs.

In 2013 there were 2484 graduating DO participating in the AOA match--2178 matched. After the AOA match, 2677 DO students/grads submitted matched NRMP rank lists -- 2019 matched.

(2178+2019)/(2484+2677)=4197/5161=81.3%

There are about 150 DOs who didn't withdraw or submit a rank list to NRMP (that leaves them eligible for SOAP), and it's hard to know what to do w them in the data.

I'm not even a DO candidate and I find it off putting that you'd disseminate this misinformation. The Carib schools notoriously dismiss students they don't believe can match, so you can also consider their data effectively grossly inflated.

 

[KonsieRav]

The data you're referring to are only counting matches to AOA programs.

In 2013 there were 4013 graduating DO students (plus 370 former graduates who were participating in the AOA match)--2178 matched. After the AOA match, 2677 DO students/grads submitted matched NRMP rank lists -- 2019 matched.

(2178+2019)/(4013+370)=4197/4383 > 95%

There are about 150 DOs who didn't withdraw or submit a rank list to NRMP (that leaves them eligible for SOAP), and even if you count allof them as unmatched, it's >92%.

I'm not even a DO candidate and I find it off putting that you'd disseminate this misinformation. The Carib schools notoriously dismiss students they don't believe can match, so you can also consider their data effectively grossly inflated.

Once again, I've provided statistical evidence behind my numbers so if you feel you can repudiate it, I encourage you. I'm simply stating the evident. As far as inflation, the schools that are eligible for Federal Loans are required to list their average USMLE scores and attrition rates — frankly I'm surprised as all of these statistics are available on government websites .

As to your mathematical contortion, it doesn't quite conform with the law of averages. So since we've established that NRMP rate for DO is 75.4%, even IF the DO match rate was 100% (which AOA indicates it is not) at the very most the average match rate between AOA/NRMP is 87.7%.

(75.4 + 100)/2 = 87.7 (that's the max)

To assume that the DOs hit 95% overall would be making the assumption that the DO match rate was 114.6%.

Like I said, numbers are very important.

With Respect

Konsie

 

[Beth_W737]

Actually no. Because I'm at a top tier school and I can assure you we match over 90%. Usually mid to high 90s

 

[Beth_W737]

And why would you average them? That makes no sense. To me it's about how high the overall match rate is and if 43% matched osteo and 64% matched allo for example I'd add and say 97% overall match. The high tier schools like PCOM etc usually do very well.

 

[pietachok]

Once again, I've provided statistical evidence behind my numbers so if you feel you can repudiate it, I encourage you. I'm simply stating the evident. As far as inflation, the schools that are eligible for Federal Loans are required to list their average USMLE scores and attrition rates — frankly I'm surprised as all of these statistics are available on government websites .

As to your mathematical contortion, it doesn't quite conform with the law of averages. So since we've established that NRMP rate for DO is 75.4%, even IF the DO match rate was 100% (which AOA indicates it is not) at the very most the average match rate between AOA/NRMP is 87.7%.

(75.4 + 100)/2 = 87.7 (that's the max)

To assume that the DOs hit 95% overall would be making the assumption that the DO match rate was 114.6%.

Like I said, numbers are very important.

With Respect

Konsie

The AOA data you're using to determine the % matched is the % matched to AOA programs, not overall. You're misinterpreting what you're looking at. My numbers come from the AOA data plus the NRMP data (which it seems you're ignoring or don't know which part to look at).

4197 DOs matched last year to either AOA or ACGME.
Approximately 5161 tried (+ some portion of 150 who didn't submit rank lists but didn't withdraw).

you need this (which you have):
https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2013sklstats.html
PLUS
the data from page 15 of this:
http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/

I'm not even sure what you're doing averaging your aoa data and 100%. I think you don't understand how the matches work--DO applicants can apply to both but can withdraw from either based on the interviews they receive, and you become ineligible for nrmp if you match aoa, so the pools overlap & the total is approximately 5161.

 

[KonsieRav]

The AOA data you're using to determine the % matched is the % matched to AOA programs, not overall. You're misinterpreting what you're looking at. My numbers come from the AOA data plus the NRMP data (which it seems you're ignoring or don't know which part to look at).

4197 DOs matched last year to either AOA or ACGME.
Approximately 4383 tried (+ some portion of 150 who didn't submit rank lists but didn't withdraw).

you need this (which you have):
https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2013sklstats.html
PLUS
the data from page 15 of this:
http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/

I'm not even sure what you're doing averaging your aoa data and 100%. I think you don't understand how the matches work--DO applicants can apply to both but can withdraw from either based on the interviews they receive, and you become ineligible for nrmp if you match aoa, so the pools overlap & the total is approximately that 4383 listed by the aoa.

Yes, friend. I took that into consideration.

Let's look at the AOA numbers again.

Overall: 11.8% did not match. Therefore your total match rate for AOA is 88.2%. And 15 of the 28 schools had a non-match rate higher, ergo a lower AOA match rate.

So follow me here: 11.8% of those applying to AOA did not match. Let's use an example of 100 students again.

47 (as per average) go to NRMP (poof..gone). So now you have 53 students, 11.8% of which do not match (6.254). So your overall match rate is 88.2% for AOA and 75.4% for NRMP, which leaves you at 81.8% average. I think you're double counting. What I am doing is taking the average of AOA and NRMP match rates.

With Respect

Konsie

 

[KonsieRav]

Anyway friend,

I wish you the best of luck in your residency. Mass statistics don't reflect the quality of the individual. Also, your screen name is Russian: Piglette from Russian Winnie the Pooh. Am I right?

Fellow Ruski?

Konsie

 

[pietachok]

Anyway friend,

I wish you the best of luck in your residency. Mass statistics don't reflect the quality of the individual. Also, your screen name is Russian: Piglette from Russian Winnie the Pooh. Am I right?

Fellow Ruski?

Konsie

I fixed my #'s as there were mixed data from different years. So it's in the low 80s, BUT that includes prior grads (370), who may represent people who are very difficult to match (previously unmatched or who are trying to switch fields or even have been dismissed from residency..idk), which means the match rate for current grads is higher. conversely, any number for Carib is actually lower if you consider the number they do not let apply for residency (dismiss from school, don't let sit for step exams b/c they don't think they will pass).

Additionally, i'm not sure how either data set handles soaped/scrambled matches, and that would be important. Given stronger ties to many hospitals & the numerous unfilled AOA slots, I would conjecture DOs do better post match in securing a spot. Now that acgme & aoa will be unified, I suspect they will continue to get preference for unfilled slots at those hospitals...although none of us can predict the future.

I don't have a dog in this fight as i'm a matched MD senior who did well in the match. There is much more to this than numbers as premeds rarely take into account the proportion of those who matched...but to terrible programs.And there is a distinct weakness in the rotations of many Carib students (and some DO) due to lack of affiliated teaching hospital. I have known good and bad physicians and students from all types of schools, but given what I have seen on average, I would not touch the Carib or certain DO programs until failing to gain acceptance to everything else, and DOs on average do better than Carib in matching. The OP is considering a BS/MD linked to SGU, so by definition has not exhausted those routes.

 

[KonsieRav]

I fixed my #'s as there were mixed data from different years. So it's in the low 80s, BUT that includes prior grads (370), who may represent people who are very difficult to match (previously unmatched or who are trying to switch fields or even have been dismissed from residency..idk), which means the match rate for current grads is higher. conversely, any number for Carib is actually lower if you consider the number they do not let apply for residency (dismiss from school, don't let sit for step exams b/c they don't think they will pass).

Additionally, i'm not sure how either data set handles soaped/scrambled matches, and that would be important. Given stronger ties to many hospitals & the numerous unfilled AOA slots, I would conjecture DOs do better post match in securing a spot. Now that acgme & aoa will be unified, I suspect they will continue to get preference for unfilled slots at those hospitals...although none of us can predict the future.

I don't have a dog in this fight as i'm a matched MD senior who did well in the match. There is much more to this than numbers as premeds rarely take into account the proportion of those who matched...but to terrible programs.And there is a distinct weakness in the rotations of many Carib students (and some DO) due to lack of affiliated teaching hospital. I have known good and bad physicians and students from all types of schools, but given what I have seen on average, I would not touch the Carib or certain DO programs until failing to gain acceptance to everything else, and DOs on average do better than Carib in matching. The OP is considering a BS/MD linked to SGU, so by definition has not exhausted those routes.

Congrats on the match! I don't know what could be considered a "terrible" program or not. I just take a look at their match list and it's all over the place, in some well-established clinics and university hospitals, some less known. What I do know is that the stigma against Caribbean students is often an overkill, much like the stigma against DOs. As we both know, it's an issue relative to the school and not the acronym (DO, MD, CarMD). I haven't exhausted all of my options, I've yet to hear from MD programs, some DOs and this is my first cycle. I got into Johns Hopkins for a graduate program to boost my stats but I'm really ready to move on, and for all intents and purposes, from almost every angle, SGU looks solid (but extremely expensive).

Is it a USMD school? NO. DO? No. But beyond the minutia of SDN bravado, I can honestly tell you that if it were located inside the continental United States and employed the same teaching style as it did today, with the same infrastructure, it would be able to outcompete low tier MD schools, much less many DO schools.

Anyway, PM me if you want to talk more and mentor me 😛

You didn't answer my question: your screen name, is it Russian?

With Respect

Konsie