BBC Radio show on offshore medical schools operating in UK 11-6-05

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
A

azskeptic

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
132
Reaction score
0
Members don't see this ad.
If you want to know what time it is in London (or anywhere else) go to:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

This show will be on Sunday 11-6-05 at 11 a.m. England time You can hear it live at 3 a.m. Los Angeles time, 4 a.m. Phoenix/Denver time, 5 a.m. Dallas time or 6 a.m. New York time or you can wait and hear it on a file on this site. This site has a place where you can click to listen live.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/worricker.shtml

Coming up - Sunday 6th November - Quack Qualifications?
A loophole has allowed a massive boom in private medical schools which are unchecked and unregulated by UK authorities. An undercover investigation found two schools lying to prospective students who could pay tens of thousands of pounds in fees for a medical degree. Matthew Chapman reveals that the founder of a different school is an alleged college cheat and an administrator is a struck off doctor. Hundreds of students from this school get their medical experience in NHS hospitals, and one graduate is currently working as a surgeon, yet there are no official British checks on the quality of the school's teaching. Matthew Chapman investigates foreign medical schools operating in Britain.
 
If you want to know what time it is in London (or anywhere else) go to:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

This show will be on Sunday 11-6-05 at 11 a.m. England time You can hear it live at 3 a.m. Los Angeles time, 4 a.m. Phoenix/Denver time, 5 a.m. Dallas time or 6 a.m. New York time or you can wait and hear it on a file on this site. This site has a place where you can click to listen live.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/worricker.shtml

Coming up - Sunday 6th November - Quack Qualifications?
A loophole has allowed a massive boom in private medical schools which are unchecked and unregulated by UK authorities. An undercover investigation found two schools lying to prospective students who could pay tens of thousands of pounds in fees for a medical degree. Matthew Chapman reveals that the founder of a different school is an alleged college cheat and an administrator is a struck off doctor. Hundreds of students from this school get their medical experience in NHS hospitals, and one graduate is currently working as a surgeon, yet there are no official British checks on the quality of the school's teaching. Matthew Chapman investigates foreign medical schools operating in Britain.
 
I wonder whether the 'St Christophers web police' will manage to shut down the BBC.
 
f_w said:
I wonder whether the 'St Christophers web police' will manage to shut down the BBC.
Click to expand...
Well, it is probably an informative show for anyone considering going to an unchartered UK medical school. The show will be archived at BBC's site and transcripts also I would guess if it is as normal.

The best defense against lawsuits is the truth,especially in the UK. I have respected the BBC's work in the past. Be interesting to see what they have done this time. Top notch investigative report team
 
azskeptic said:
If you want to know what time it is in London (or anywhere else) go to:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

This show will be on Sunday 11-6-05 at 11 a.m. England time You can hear it live at 3 a.m. Los Angeles time, 4 a.m. Phoenix/Denver time, 5 a.m. Dallas time or 6 a.m. New York time or you can wait and hear it on a file on this site. This site has a place where you can click to listen live.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/worricker.shtml

Coming up - Sunday 6th November - Quack Qualifications?
A loophole has allowed a massive boom in private medical schools which are unchecked and unregulated by UK authorities. An undercover investigation found two schools lying to prospective students who could pay tens of thousands of pounds in fees for a medical degree. Matthew Chapman reveals that the founder of a different school is an alleged college cheat and an administrator is a struck off doctor. Hundreds of students from this school get their medical experience in NHS hospitals, and one graduate is currently working as a surgeon, yet there are no official British checks on the quality of the school's teaching. Matthew Chapman investigates foreign medical schools operating in Britain.
Click to expand...


Hmmm, I wonder who that could be?
Perhaps a former alleged ER doctor from florida ? :barf:
 
It appears their degrees may soon have the same value as that of their founder's MD
 
Well, the GMC must respond to some of the other schools who are lying to students and doing things illegally.

St chris grads can not apply for a new license until this is sorted out. I have seen the list of questions that the GMC needs answered and st chris should be able to answer all of them and include proof with ease. What the GMC is doing is very understandable, since they only want to ensure quality. I look forward to seeing what they say after they have done a thorough review.
 
http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/studying_medicine_at_undergraduate_level.asp


St. Christopher's College of Medicine, Luton


We are currently investigating this institution's affiliation to the St Christopher ‘s College of Medicine in Senegal. Until our investigations are complete we have suspended our acceptance of medical degrees awarded by this institution and/or any of it's affiliations. Please contact us for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.
 
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/how_t.../acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4410020.stm

As a UK citizen, what I object to most strongly is the fact that students at St. Christophers (or any other foreign "medical school" based here in the UK) are able to gain clinical experience in our state (NHS) hospitals. Whilst these students may be "supervised" they are still coming into contact with patients, talking to them, taking their histories and examining them yet their "medical schools" have not been assessed by any government authority. These students are therefore potentially unfit to carry out these skills. In my opinion this is grossly unacceptable. From the radio programme, it appears that these schools have not been assessed by any professional bodies, UK or foreign, and are in fact self-regulating. This is a dangerous state of affairs.

Do patients get asked if they are willing to consent to a "medical student" from an unregulated, foreign educational institution asking them personal information and performing initimate physical examination on them? I doubt that very much!

These instititions must be thoroughly investigated and if found not not to be meeting the exact same criteria set for UK university medical schools, should be shut down and their students refused access to NHS hospitals and their patients.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/noscript.shtml?/radio/aod/fivelive_aod.shtml?fivelive/flreport_quacks"
 
Kev (UK) said:
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/how_t.../acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4410020.stm

As a UK citizen, what I object to most strongly is the fact that students at St. Christophers (or any other foreign "medical school" based here in the UK) are able to gain clinical experience in our state (NHS) hospitals. Whilst these students may be "supervised" they are still coming into contact with patients, talking to them, taking their histories and examining them yet their "medical schools" have not been assessed by any government authority. These students are therefore potentially unfit to carry out these skills. In my opinion this is grossly unacceptable. From the radio programme, it appears that these schools have not been assessed by any professional bodies, UK or foreign, and are in fact self-regulating. This is a dangerous state of affairs.

Do patients get asked if they are willing to consent to a "medical student" from an unregulated, foreign educational institution asking them personal information and performing initimate physical examination on them? I doubt that very much!

These instititions must be thoroughly investigated and if found not not to be meeting the exact same criteria set for UK university medical schools, should be shut down and their students refused access to NHS hospitals and their patients.
Click to expand...


There are probably about 6-7 students from st chris who do any clinicals in the Uk every year (most rotate in the USA). What about the hundreds of students from AUC and other carribean medical schools with even less oversight who do clinicals in the UK. In fact, some of those schools send virtually ALL of their students to do clinicals in the UK.
 
To avoid repetition I refer you to my previous answer:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=3076029#post3076029

The bottom line is I believe, if you are not a medical student registered with a medical school in a British university, with it's own UK charter to award degrees, then you should not be learning to practise medicine in UK hopsitals, even under supervision. It does not matter whether you are from St. Christophers, the Caribbean or Timbuktoo. I think the term "medical school/ college" should in itself be regulated to avoid such confusion. Why don't St. Christophers operate out of Swenegal alone? There is no doubt in my mind such organisations are exploiting and riding on the back of the good name already set by validated UK medical schools. It's wrong and it must stop. Now the GMC are on the case I hope it will.

I do have empathy with studentas already registered with such organisations (and those who have graduated from them). They are now living in uncertain times and I suspect it may take months, but more likely years, before things are finalised with regards to UK registration for graduates from such schools. I also suspect the NHS will now move to regulate the access of such students to state hoispitals in light of the recent media attention.
 
I am just listening to the BBC programme. It should be mandatory for US medical board chairmen to listen to this.
 
Did the BBC paint a good or bad image of foreign schools?
 
Nothing earth-shattering (they don't club baby seals or anything like that).

-- They checked with the ministry of education in Dhakar which didn't know that there was a medical school in their country before 2003 😉 (I already know the excuse we will hear from our usual suspects: 'We are accredited by the ministry of health and not the ministry of education blablabla')

-- They expressed suprise that a medical school with a 4 year curriculum was able to create graduates 1 year after it opened shop 😉

-- The reporter was shown a letter from the senegalese goverment indicating a charter before 2003 but was not allowed to make a copy of it 😉

Well, it looks like the GMC has caught on to the shady ways of the squatter schools. For the time being, their degrees aren't worth the paper they are printed on for registration in the UK.
 
f_w said:
Nothing earth-shattering (they don't club baby seals or anything like that).

-- They checked with the ministry of education in Dhakar which didn't know that there was a medical school in their country before 2003 😉 (I already know the excuse we will hear from our usual suspects: 'We are accredited by the ministry of health and not the ministry of education blablabla')

-- They expressed suprise that a medical school with a 4 year curriculum was able to create graduates 1 year after it opened shop 😉

-- The reporter was shown a letter from the senegalese goverment indicating a charter before 2003 but was not allowed to make a copy of it 😉

Well, it looks like the GMC has caught on to the shady ways of the squatter schools. For the time being, their degrees aren't worth the paper they are printed on for registration in the UK.
Click to expand...

Arent mainly american students attending these schools? I don't think they have huge problems getting residencies and returning to the US.
 
Arent mainly american students attending these schools? I don't think they have huge problems getting residencies and returning to the US.
Click to expand...

Yes, for lack of better knowledge (or desperation) on the side of residency directors.

The WHO, ECFMG, FAIMER and most medical boards don't really evaluate or accredit medical schools. They all rely on the countries the medical schools are located in to do the quality control. They assume that medical education is regulated by some governing body, just as it is in the US or other developed countries. For 99% of medical schools around the world this is probably correct. In countries following the british model of education there is some national council to guide the medical schools. In countries of french colonial heritage it is typically the goverment directly that regulates medical licensing and education. The problem arises if schools are regulated by nobody, mainly because the countries issuing their charter don't have a medical education system of their own.
 
f_w said:
Yes, for lack of better knowledge (or desperation) on the side of residency directors.

The WHO, ECFMG, FAIMER and most medical boards don't really evaluate or accredit medical schools. They all rely on the countries the medical schools are located in to do the quality control. They assume that medical education is regulated by some governing body, just as it is in the US or other developed countries. For 99% of medical schools around the world this is probably correct. In countries following the british model of education there is some national council to guide the medical schools. In countries of french colonial heritage it is typically the goverment directly that regulates medical licensing and education. The problem arises if schools are regulated by nobody, mainly because the countries issuing their charter don't have a medical education system of their own.
Click to expand...

Many of these offshore style schools, that are made to attract students with lower grades, often have clinical rotations at hospitals in the students home country. For example the carribean schools have the first 2 years of basic science on the island in classrooms, the next two years of clinical rotations are conducted in US hospitals in big cities like New York, Miami, Chicago, Los Angles, Baltimore, DC...etc. These students must also take the USMLE before they can do their rotations or residency. In that sense i think these students are probably just as qualified as the American students bc they are doing their clinical years right beside them in US hospitals. Residency directors also see their USMLE board scores to evaluate their understanding of the basic sciences.
 
For example the carribean schools have the first 2 years of basic science on the island in classrooms, the next two years of clinical rotations are conducted in US hospitals in big cities like New York, Miami, Chicago, Los Angles, Baltimore, DC...etc.
Click to expand...

Did I say that that is a great idea ?

There has been a big hubub in CT about the 'affiliation' between a local community hospital and a disgraced caribbean school. After the local press looked into the background of that school and the hospital got some calls from concerned patients, the agreement was scrapped pretty fast.

The more respectable of the caribbean schools are located in the country they are chartered in. Their graduates can be licensed to practice in the country and there is opportunity for oversight by the local authorities.

This is different from setting up a school in a vacuum and getting the paperwork from a third country (Which is like driving a truck loaded with 20tons of chlorine gas through the US while having Liberian license plates on it. If the DOT pulls you over at the weigh station, you tell them 'Trust me, the liberian ministry of trucking and mining checks my overflow valves and my safety procedures and driver training every year 😀 . I can't/won't show you any paperwork, but trust me its true. )

These students must also take the USMLE before they can do their rotations or residency. In that sense i think these students are probably just as qualified as the American students
Click to expand...

The old 'they passed the same test so they must be as good' argument. I think it is a fallacy to believe that passing a MCQ test is a great measure of the quality of the underlying medical education. Medicine is more than what the USMLE tests (just as intelligence is more than what the IQ represents). I could take anyone out of a business school, give them the USMLE syllabus and the various study aids and get them to pass the USMLE on the first attempt. Would I entrust my life to that person ?
 
f_w said:
Did I say that that is a great idea ?

The more respectable of the caribbean schools are located in the country they are chartered in. Their graduates can be licensed to practice in the country and there is opportunity for oversight by the local authorities.
Click to expand...

Do you mean like SGU and ROSS? They are pretty respectable.

This is different from setting up a school in a vacuum and getting the paperwork from a third country (Which is like driving a truck loaded with 20tons of chlorine gas through the US while having Liberian license plates on it. If the DOT pulls you over at the weigh station, you tell them 'Trust me, the liberian ministry of trucking and mining checks my overflow valves and my safety procedures and driver training every year 😀 . I can't/won't show you any paperwork, but trust me its true. )
Click to expand...

?????



The old 'they passed the same test so they must be as good' argument. I think it is a fallacy to believe that passing a MCQ test is a great measure of the quality of the underlying medical education. Medicine is more than what the USMLE tests (just as intelligence is more than what the IQ represents). I could take anyone out of a business school, give them the USMLE syllabus and the various study aids and get them to pass the USMLE on the first attempt. Would I entrust my life to that person ?
Click to expand...

I highly doubt that you could do that. Plus most of the training a doctor recieves is during their residency. All doctors who wish to practice in the US most complete a residency in the US.
 
Plus most of the training a doctor recieves is during their residency. All doctors who wish to practice in the US most complete a residency in the US.
Click to expand...

Which is useless without a foundation of knowledge in the basic medical sciences.

Why don't we allow people to just learn medicine 'on the job'. Open residencies to anyone who can pass USMLE1+2 and provides some paperwork that he did 'clinicals' at some randomly selected hospitals.

- unregulated commercial medical schools
- 'study' medicine by apprenticeship with a local practicioner

Abraham Flexner is spinning in his grave.
 
leorl said:
THere a transcript on this?
Click to expand...

Haven't found one.

The abridged news report can be found here, while the radio piece can be found here. It is about 35 minutes long and can be played without Real player, as the BBC site can launch its own streaming audio.
 
f_w said:
Which is useless without a foundation of knowledge in the basic medical sciences.

Why don't we allow people to just learn medicine 'on the job'. Open residencies to anyone who can pass USMLE1+2 and provides some paperwork that he did 'clinicals' at some randomly selected hospitals.

- unregulated commercial medical schools
- 'study' medicine by apprenticeship with a local practicioner

Abraham Flexner is spinning in his grave.
Click to expand...


Obviously all of these offshore schools are meant to attract students who were not able to get into US schools. Your view point on these schools depends on your philosophy. Are you one to believe in giving someone a second chance? That is one of the prevailing philosophies that these schools have. They don't take horrible students, just students that are a bit below the avg stats for american schools.

These students for whatever reason did not perform well enough to get the gpa and mcat necessary for admission. Whether it be family problems at the time, lack of motivation at the time, career change, working while in school, emotional problems.....etc these schools offer many people a second chance at achieving their dreams. Now if these people still haven't changed their study habits they will fail out, and about 1/3 of all students attending offshore schools do fail out. The rest go on to do well on their USMLEs and get into decent to very respectable residency programs.

http://sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/Home/2005ResidencyAppointmentListBySpecialty.htm

The students at many of these school are also taught by many perfessors who taught at many prestigious US schools. SGU and ROSS both have professors who formerly taught at schools like harvard, yale, nyu and other medical schools. They also receive almost 150 visiting professors every year from medical school all over the US:

http://www.sgu.edu/NewsEvents.nsf/webcontent/D360602C3C40F47C85256CCA0060ADF4?OpenDocument


Many graduates do go on to become very succesfull practioners

4 Named "Top Doctors" in Florida
SGU is proud to announce that four of its former students were named to a list of "Top Doctors in Florida" by Orlando Magazine for 2002. The four doctors are: Dr. Arnold M. Einhorn, SGUSOM '82. Cardiovascular Disease, International Medicine. Dr. Stan K. Sujka, SGUSOM '82, Urology. Dr. Michael Kahky, transfer from SGU, Surgery. Dr. Randall Alan Loy, transfer from SGU, Obstetrics & Gynecology and Reproductive Endocrinology

Many of these carribean schools have been inspected by US regulatory agencies. 4 of the carribean schools have accredidation in all 50 states (SGU, ROSS, AUC, SABA). But this is not to say that all offshore schools are as good. In the end you must do your own research into the schools that interest you, but to say that just bc someone did their basic science courses in a class room that wasn't on US ground will make them a horrible doctor is just silly 👎
 
but to say that just bc someone did their basic science courses in a class room that wasn't on US ground will make them a horrible doctor is just silly
Click to expand...

Where did I say that ?

Could have saved yourself some time for this rant if you had read my posts.

I have a problem with medical schools that are not tied into a national system of accreditation and oversight. ECFMGs rules assume that the schools have to adhere to some sort of standard, that is why they give so much weight to 'graduation from medical school' in their certification process. If the schools don't have to adhere to such standards bc the country they are chartered in doesn't have any, this credit is given without merit.

(You don't have to convince me that medical schools outside of the US turn out good doctors, this is beside the point.)
 
f_w said:
Where did I say that ?

Could have saved yourself some time for this rant if you had read my posts.

I have a problem with medical schools that are not tied into a national system of accreditation and oversight. ECFMGs rules assume that the schools have to adhere to some sort of standard, that is why they give so much weight to 'graduation from medical school' in their certification process. If the schools don't have to adhere to such standards bc the country they are chartered in doesn't have any, this credit is given without merit.

(You don't have to convince me that medical schools outside of the US turn out good doctors, this is beside the point.)
Click to expand...

Yea, i was talkign more about the carribean schools (specifically the big 3). But there are some really shady schools out there.
 
Yea, i was talkign more about the carribean schools (specifically the big 3). But there are some really shady schools out there.
Click to expand...

Even the 'big 3' have fundamentally the same problem. They exist in a regulatory vacuum (unlike for example the irish or australian schools).

And no, they are not 'approved by 50 states'. The fact that you can get a license in most states just means that they haven't been specifically disapproved. And even the inspections performed by CA and NY are not an accreditation process. They are a basic screening to weed out the obviously fradulent operations.
 
f_w said:
Even the 'big 3' have fundamentally the same problem. They exist in a regulatory vacuum (unlike for example the irish or australian schools).

And no, they are not 'approved by 50 states'. The fact that you can get a license in most states just means that they haven't been specifically disapproved. And even the inspections performed by CA and NY are not an accreditation process. They are a basic screening to weed out the obviously fradulent operations.
Click to expand...

http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/home/Recognition.htm

U.S. Department of Education

In 1996, the U.S. Department of Education reviewed the standards of medical education in 30 countries for the purpose of conferring student loans. Grenada was one of four countries approved during the initial review; the United Kingdom, Australia, and Canada were the other three. Other countries have subsequently been approved.

Grenada Recognition

The School of Medicine is fully recognized and approved by the government of Grenada to confer the degree of Doctor of Medicine upon students who fulfill the School’s admissions requirements and complete the prescribed curriculum.

U.S. and U.K. Recognition

Our program in medicine is approved by the states of New York, New Jersey, California and Florida for clinical training of students in our clinical centers and affiliated hospitals. The School additionally has affiliation agreements and partnerships with a number of hospitals in other states and in the U.K. and has been visited and approved for Limited Registration status by the General Medical Council of Great Britain.

World Health Organization Listing

St. George’s University School of Medicine is listed with the World Health Organization, and is fully recognized and approved by the government of Grenada to confer the degree of Doctor of Medicine upon students who fulfill the School’s admissions requirements and complete the prescribed curriculum.
 
An offshore school will never be as good as a US school, but they do produce satisfactory to fine primary care providers and the occasional specialist. It all comes down to how much the student wants to study. Anything the student may have not experienced in their clinical years, they will experience in the residency of their choosing. 👍
 
You won't convince me by regurgitating whatever the schools put on their website.

In reality, these countries didn't have an accreditation system for medical schools until the commercial rackets showed up. And big suprise, when the DOE came around a couple of local officials where rustled up and presented paperwork demonstrating an accreditation system closely modeled after LCME standards..... (reminds me of the olympic participation of places like Tuvalu)

I consider the Domenica medical council to be equally effective as the Senegalese or Ugandan medical council. These countries (and their officials) derive considerable income from the mass production of physicians while their own citizens are not at risk if the standards are not adhered to.

And why do you keep putting down the graduates of these schools ? I thought there is no difference, they pass their USMLEs after all, don't they ?
 
f_w said:
You won't convince me by regurgitating whatever the schools put on their website.

In reality, these countries didn't have an accreditation system for medical schools until the commercial rackets showed up. And big suprise, when the DOE came around a couple of local officials where rustled up and presented paperwork demonstrating an accreditation system closely modeled after LCME standards..... (reminds me of the olympic participation of places like Tuvalu)

I consider the Domenica medical council to be equally effective as the Senegalese or Ugandan medical council. These countries (and their officials) derive considerable income from the mass production of physicians while their own citizens are not at risk if the standards are not adhered to.

And why do you keep putting down the graduates of these schools ? I thought there is no difference, they pass their USMLEs after all, don't they ?
Click to expand...

There is no need for me to convince you, i was just making a statement. The truth is wether or not you are convinced, these schools will still continue to operate and will continue to put out about 300 to 400 new physicians each year per school.

I never put down the graduates of these schools. Someone (I think it may have been you) said that even if these students received adequate basic science instruction, that their clinical science years were sub par. I was making reference to that statement when i said that if there are any areas that these students lack in their clinical science training, they will be made up for during their residencies. I am only speaking for the top 4 carribean schools (SGU, AUC, ROSS, SABA), in my opinion the rest of the offshore schools are not worth attending.

What the situation in the UK is, I dont know and I don't care bc i don't plan to study or practice there.
 
Did they mention the Kigezi fiasco in this expose?
 
TheDervish said:
Did they mention the Kigezi fiasco in this expose?
Click to expand...
I mentioned it in my remarks on the show.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
IMG in PA schools
Replies
0
Views
2K
Maryam259
M
Mr.Smile12
Anyone attend International Medical School Fairs???
Replies
0
Views
2K
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
O
Can you moonlight internally on an H-1B visa with an unrestricted medical license?
Replies
1
Views
703
NotAProgDirector
NotAProgDirector
A
Need Help_Any American high schooler trying to do medicine in Ireland Medical schools
Replies
0
Views
1K
AKK_TX
A
B
Texas Medical Board; Form J; Carribean School not on the list
Replies
0
Views
606
beehive25
B
Top