Be thankful or try again?

[Yaspsych]

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I've found myself in the sticky spot of being accepted at my last choice program, while closely losing the race to my top choices. The question now is: do I accept my last choice program's offer and make the most of it, or do I learn from my mistakes, strengthen my application, and reapply?

Is anyone else in a similar position? What are your thoughts?

*edit*

I would strengthen my application by getting published (which I didn't have enough time to accomplish during this cycle), volunteering to get more clinical experience, and taking the Psychology GRE.

My last choice program is not the best fit for me because of its location, lack of diversity, and some other factors. Those are two factors that matter a great deal to me, not just because of social comfort but because of their potential influence on the trajectory of my career and life.

 

[clinpsych]

How are you planning to strengthen your application over the next year?

 

[Marissa4usa]

What makes it your last choice?

 

[psyman]

If you don't want it...I'll take it.

Edit: My bad, I thought you were talking about an internship. That's a whole different thread!

 

[Psychology 76]

I've found myself in the sticky spot of being accepted at my last choice program, while closely losing the race to my top choices. The question now is: do I accept my last choice program's offer and make the most of it, or do I learn from my mistakes, strengthen my application, and reapply?

Is anyone else in a similar position? What are your thoughts?

*edit*

I would strengthen my application by getting published (which I didn't have enough time to accomplish during this cycle), volunteering to get more clinical experience, and taking the Psychology GRE.

My last choice program is not the best fit for me because of its location, lack of diversity, and some other factors. Those are two factors that matter a great deal to me, not just because of social comfort but because of their potential influence on the trajectory of my career and life.

It really depends how bad the program is IMO. I wouldn't want to go to a program that you wouldn't be happy at or receive good training, but there is no guaranteed things will go better next year. PhD programs are super competitive and often a crap shoot.

 

[LM02]

What kinds of programs are you talking about here?

For example, if you're talking about research-heavy PhD programs, getting more clinical experience is not really going to help you strengthen your application. I'd focus on research.

 

[psychologyrun]

.

 

[KayJay85]

It really depends how bad the program is IMO. I wouldn't want to go to a program that you wouldn't be happy at or receive good training, but there is no guaranteed things will go better next year. PhD programs are super competitive and often a crap shoot.

I agree with Psychology 76. If it is possible to get what you need to establish a foundation, then I would take it.

 

[kea2115]

As long as you think you can stick out the 5-6 years necessary to graduate, then I would do it. You aready worked this hard. I don't think it would be wise to risk it again next year. You never know what the programs are looking for, and what you spend your "time off" doing, may have no bearing on whether or not you get accepted a second time around.

And also, just an aside, but you probably should have thought about location before you applied...

 

[CharmedDiamond]

I'm totally in the same boat. I got into a school that I applied to purely based on location (I know, bad idea, but it's one of my priorities), and now, I have no idea what to do. I SINCERELY don't know HOW I got in; I'm not a good research match at all, other than my desire to work in child psych. Seriously - I swear I did everything wrong with this school (good solid PhD school, not a professional school), but still got in, so yeah, this process is definitely a crapshoot. I think I'd go here, despite my misgivings if I thought I could even develop an interest in this prof's lab, but I truly don't think I could. The offer came from my "back up" POI, which was just sort of written down because it was required (I really liked my 1st POI, but this second one . . . how they like me, I don't have a clue).

So yeah, I'm praying that my waitlist offer comes through, if not I'm contemplating my MS then deciding later what to do with it . . . this process has been so screwy that I'm seriously thinking about law school!!

It's really hard having my dream THIS close to coming true, and contemplating rejecting it, because I don't think I'll be happy at this particular school. That, and it's not fully funded. I won't admit that this factor doesn't sway me a bit either.

 

[Born2rumble1st]

I'm totally in the same boat. I got into a school that I applied to purely based on location (I know, bad idea, but it's one of my priorities), and now, I have no idea what to do. I SINCERELY don't know HOW I got in; I'm not a good research match at all, other than my desire to work in child psych. Seriously - I swear I did everything wrong with this school (good solid PhD school, not a professional school), but still got in, so yeah, this process is definitely a crapshoot. I think I'd go here, despite my misgivings if I thought I could even develop an interest in this prof's lab, but I truly don't think I could. The offer came from my "back up" POI, which was just sort of written down because it was required (I really liked my 1st POI, but this second one . . . how they like me, I don't have a clue).

So yeah, I'm praying that my waitlist offer comes through, if not I'm contemplating my MS then deciding later what to do with it . . . this process has been so screwy that I'm seriously thinking about law school!!

It's really hard having my dream THIS close to coming true, and contemplating rejecting it, because I don't think I'll be happy at this particular school. That, and it's not fully funded. I won't admit that this factor doesn't sway me a bit either.

As a recent law school graduate who is trying to go into psychology, I would seriously discourage you from attending law school. The legal market is terrible right now unless you go to one of the top 10 schools. Even if you do attend a top school (which I did), you are still going to have a hard time finding a job. Plus, legal work is BORING. All you do all day is sit in an office and stare at a computer screen. And since lawyers work ridiculous hours, this isn't for 40 hours a week, it's for 80..... I've been doing it for about a year now and I'm going slowly crazy! I need interaction with people to function and right now that does not happen often enough.

 

[corticalmass]

A quick note about program rankings, and what constitutes a "bad" program. I discussed this with a prof at one of my interviews this year (note that the program is ranked "25," so he wasn't talking in context of some sort of apologetics), and he gave me the following rank order of factors that matter in graduate education:

1. Student's work ethic; student's productivity
2. Quality of mentorship
3. School reputation

That said, I would echo the chorus of users asserting that the entire process is a crapshoot and that even an objectively improved CV will not guarantee better luck!

 

[CharmedDiamond]

A quick note about program rankings, and what constitutes a "bad" program. I discussed this with a prof at one of my interviews this year (note that the program is ranked "25," so he wasn't talking in context of some sort of apologetics), and he gave me the following rank order of factors that matter in graduate education:

1. Student's work ethic; student's productivity
2. Quality of mentorship
3. School reputation

That said, I would echo the chorus of users asserting that the entire process is a crapshoot and that even an objectively improved CV will not guarantee better luck!

Any idea how to figure out if someone is good mentor?

And the crapshoot thing is simply TERRIFYING!!! 😱 I know it's true, but eek!!

 

[Yaspsych]

I really appreciate everyone's input on this! As some quick responses:

- I'm interested in balanced programs, which may lean a little more on the research side. Clinical experience was brought up in the interviews I went to this year, so I realized I should work on that.

- I know that my focus should be on the program itself and not the location/other criteria, and that sticking it out for 5-6 years is a relatively small sacrifice to make for my career. However, after talking with some rather overwhelmed grad students (as grad students often are), I think that when times get rough in my progress as a grad student, I would at least like to find comfort in my immediate surroundings, just to help me stay motivated. In this case, I do believe that my reasons for hesitating on my offer are legitimate. One of my friends got into her top school, and that's what keeps her going when she's stressed and overloaded.

- Finally, I was aware of the location, but I applied because I wanted to keep my mind open about it. I figured I'd get a better look at it during the interviews.

In the end, I learned a great deal from this application cycle and I believe that I can do better in the next one. So... I decided to reapply.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

I really depends how bad the program is IMO. I wouldn't want to go to a program that you wouldn't be happy at or receive good training, but there is no guaranteed things will go better next year. PhD programs are super competitive and often a crap shoot.

I understand how competitive clinical PhDs are. I don't understand what you mean by crapshoot. Are they unfair (e.g. if your advisor at University A calls his old classmate or advisor at University B you get an interview or ofer). Is the changes of getting in totally random? I have been through the clinical psyc doc application process twice and assume that my GREs were to blame for my lack of PhD success and decision to go PsyD. Is there something I am missing?

 

[Eivuwan]

I really depends how bad the program is IMO. I wouldn't want to go to a program that you wouldn't be happy at or receive good training, but there is no guaranteed things will go better next year. PhD programs are super competitive and often a crap shoot.

I understand how competitive clinical PhDs are. I don't understand what you mean by crapshoot. Are they unfair (e.g. if your advisor at University A calls his old classmate or advisor at University B you get an interview or ofer). Is the changes of getting in totally random? I have been through the clinical psyc doc application process twice and assume that my GREs were to blame for my lack of PhD success and decision to go PsyD. Is there something I am missing?

No, the process is not totally random or unfair. However, if you're unlucky (and these things can happen a significant amount of time) a lot of things can happen that result in rejection even if you're an excellent candidate. For example, the program can owe some other professor a favor, so the one you want to work with cannot accept anyone this year. Or the program may want more males in the program due to diversity issues, so they reject some good female candidates. There are a number of such things that can happen and that's out of your control.

 

[CharmedDiamond]

I really depends how bad the program is IMO. I wouldn't want to go to a program that you wouldn't be happy at or receive good training, but there is no guaranteed things will go better next year. PhD programs are super competitive and often a crap shoot.

I understand how competitive clinical PhDs are. I don't understand what you mean by crapshoot. Are they unfair (e.g. if your advisor at University A calls his old classmate or advisor at University B you get an interview or ofer). Is the changes of getting in totally random? I have been through the clinical psyc doc application process twice and assume that my GREs were to blame for my lack of PhD success and decision to go PsyD. Is there something I am missing?

It's a crapshoot in that a lot of the factors are completely arbitrary. In other fields like medicine and law, if you have test scores + grades, you're in. In psych, we add things such as "fit," relevant research experience, clinical experience, publications, etc. Not all research experiences are created equal, pubs are extremely difficult to get as an undergrad (even if you are lucky enough to work under a professor who shares credit!), and fit can be difficult to figure out at times. I know for myself, I was never able to gain experience in the exact area I was interested in. My research experience was awesome, but I never got to demonstrate my talents in what I wanted to. Also, because PhD programs work under the mentor model, you're being picked by ONE person, rather than an admissions committee. With admissions committees, your SOP can be pretty general, but with the POI model, you're looking to click with that one person, and you don't know what they want/don't want!!

Here's my story of crapshoot - I got into the school I had the absolute worst fit with. My GPA/GRE were both at about their level, maybe slightly lower. I still don't know WHY that prof picked me (they required interest in multiple POI - my invite came from the one I had the least in common with). I did get waitlisted at a school I thought I had an amazing fit with (pre-interview waitlist, so I'm not counting on it), and rejected from others that I had great fit with as well.

You never know what factors can affect you. Maybe one of your letters wasn't strong? Not personalizing the SOP enough? Transcript issues? Unfortunately we don't get the answer when we get rejected.

Hope this helps, good luck!

 

[PsyDLICSW]

I really depends how bad the program is IMO. I wouldn't want to go to a program that you wouldn't be happy at or receive good training, but there is no guaranteed things will go better next year. PhD programs are super competitive and often a crap shoot.

It's a crapshoot in that a lot of the factors are completely arbitrary. In other fields like medicine and law, if you have test scores + grades, you're in. In psych, we add things such as "fit," relevant research experience, clinical experience, publications, etc. Not all research experiences are created equal, pubs are extremely difficult to get as an undergrad (even if you are lucky enough to work under a professor who shares credit!), and fit can be difficult to figure out at times. I know for myself, I was never able to gain experience in the exact area I was interested in. My research experience was awesome, but I never got to demonstrate my talents in what I wanted to. Also, because PhD programs work under the mentor model, you're being picked by ONE person, rather than an admissions committee. With admissions committees, your SOP can be pretty general, but with the POI model, you're looking to click with that one person, and you don't know what they want/don't want!!

Here's my story of crapshoot - I got into the school I had the absolute worst fit with. My GPA/GRE were both at about their level, maybe slightly lower. I still don't know WHY that prof picked me (they required interest in multiple POI - my invite came from the one I had the least in common with). I did get waitlisted at a school I thought I had an amazing fit with (pre-interview waitlist, so I'm not counting on it), and rejected from others that I had great fit with as well.

You never know what factors can affect you. Maybe one of your letters wasn't strong? Not personalizing the SOP enough? Transcript issues? Unfortunately we don't get the answer when we get rejected.

Hope this helps, good luck!

Thanks for clarifying. I have never heard the word "crapshoot" used before. I am in a PsyD program now and they used an admissions commitee as opposed to appealing to one person's research interests. My advisor said that it was my GREs and limited research expereince, which makes sense. I am in a program now and am doing well. But there are times where I felt like clinical psychology goes out of its way to make students feel like they are not good enough (e.g. rejecting students with great credentials becasue of lack of publication or a stupid test score).

 

[Venny]

I have also been accepted into a clinical psych PhD program that I'm now having doubts about. During the interview, I loved the school, loved the faculty, found a good research fit, and loved the students. I was so excited that I accepted my offer within a week after getting it. Now though - after having a few weeks to think about things - I'm worried I made the wrong decision. I shouldn't be stressing about rankings but I am. This program ranks in the 80s according to US News and about 100 according to some of those articles that rank programs based on publication/citation rates.

I'm just terrified that the program isn't prestigious enough to make me employable. I don't have plans of entering academia but the truth is that I don't know what career I DO want to pursue - I have no idea. I'm honestly just staying in psych because it's easier and my bachelor's degree is getting me nowhere. Will going to a 80-100 rank school make me unqualified for good internships and post-docs?

I already accepted the offer, so I'm probably stressing needlessly at this point but I can't help but wonder what would happen if I turned this offer down and applied to more prestigious programs next year. When I was originally applying, I was so convinced that I wasn't a competitive applicant that I didn't even apply to prestigious schools. But now I'm looking at my credentials and thinking otherwise: 3.7 GPA from a prestigious school (though not quite Ivy League, I think it's one of the "Public" Ivy Leagues), 1380 GRE, 1 year of clinical experience, and 4-5 years of research experience. HOWEVER, I have no publications or professional posters/presentations, and I did not do an honors thesis.

I don't know... what do you guys think? Should I go ahead and go to this school or back out of my commitment and apply again next year?

 

[O Gurl]

I have also been accepted into a clinical psych PhD program that I'm now having doubts about. During the interview, I loved the school, loved the faculty, found a good research fit, and loved the students. I was so excited that I accepted my offer within a week after getting it. Now though - after having a few weeks to think about things - I'm worried I made the wrong decision. I shouldn't be stressing about rankings but I am. This program ranks in the 80s according to US News and about 100 according to some of those articles that rank programs based on publication/citation rates.

I'm just terrified that the program isn't prestigious enough to make me employable. I don't have plans of entering academia but the truth is that I don't know what career I DO want to pursue - I have no idea. I'm honestly just staying in psych because it's easier and my bachelor's degree is getting me nowhere. Will going to a 80-100 rank school make me unqualified for good internships and post-docs?

I already accepted the offer, so I'm probably stressing needlessly at this point but I can't help but wonder what would happen if I turned this offer down and applied to more prestigious programs next year. When I was originally applying, I was so convinced that I wasn't a competitive applicant that I didn't even apply to prestigious schools. But now I'm looking at my credentials and thinking otherwise: 3.7 GPA from a prestigious school (though not quite Ivy League, I think it's one of the "Public" Ivy Leagues), 1380 GRE, 1 year of clinical experience, and 4-5 years of research experience. HOWEVER, I have no publications or professional posters/presentations, and I did not do an honors thesis.

I don't know... what do you guys think? Should I go ahead and go to this school or back out of my commitment and apply again next year?

Venny,

Relax. The US News rating is arbitrary at best. The "quality" of clinical psych programs has more to do with the fit between faculty/practica and your career goals, completion rates, match rates to APA-accredited sites, and EPPP pass rates than some random list. Clinical psychology is far too diverse a field to have one uniform ranking system. Perhaps if programs were ranked by specialty (neuropsych, child psych, substance abuse, peds, forensics, health psych, geropsych, and so on) these rankings would mean something. Also, just from glancing at the list, plenty of excellent programs rank in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and so on. I wouldn't stress. CONGRATS and best wishes.

 

[cara susanna]

It isn't the program, it's the professor you'd be working with that matters in terms of reputation.

 

[CharmedDiamond]

It isn't the program, it's the professor you'd be working with that matters in terms of reputation.

Not even. It's how hard you work!!

 

[AgapeBlue]

it isn't the program, it's the professor you'd be working with that matters in terms of reputation.

+1

 

[Venny]

Thanks for the support, guys. I am probably needlessly stressing. Maybe I just have cold feet; committing to a grad program and mentor feels like a marriage!

Yaspsych, I wish you luck on your applications next year! With all you've learned this application season, I'm sure it'll be much easier for you next time. That's another reason why, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking about applying to better programs next year (although it probably won't happen).

CharmedDiamond, is there a chance that you could switch mentors once you're in the program? A couple programs where I interviewed seemed to allow this.

 

[emily621]

I have also been accepted into a clinical psych PhD program that I'm now having doubts about. During the interview, I loved the school, loved the faculty, found a good research fit, and loved the students. I was so excited that I accepted my offer within a week after getting it. Now though - after having a few weeks to think about things - I'm worried I made the wrong decision. I shouldn't be stressing about rankings but I am. This program ranks in the 80s according to US News and about 100 according to some of those articles that rank programs based on publication/citation rates.

I'm just terrified that the program isn't prestigious enough to make me employable. I don't have plans of entering academia but the truth is that I don't know what career I DO want to pursue - I have no idea. I'm honestly just staying in psych because it's easier and my bachelor's degree is getting me nowhere. Will going to a 80-100 rank school make me unqualified for good internships and post-docs?

I already accepted the offer, so I'm probably stressing needlessly at this point but I can't help but wonder what would happen if I turned this offer down and applied to more prestigious programs next year. When I was originally applying, I was so convinced that I wasn't a competitive applicant that I didn't even apply to prestigious schools. But now I'm looking at my credentials and thinking otherwise: 3.7 GPA from a prestigious school (though not quite Ivy League, I think it's one of the "Public" Ivy Leagues), 1380 GRE, 1 year of clinical experience, and 4-5 years of research experience. HOWEVER, I have no publications or professional posters/presentations, and I did not do an honors thesis.

I don't know... what do you guys think? Should I go ahead and go to this school or back out of my commitment and apply again next year?

Wow, we are in basically the exact same position, except I'm dragging out responding to my offer until the last second. Our stats/undergrad/post-grad experiences are almost identical too.

This is my second round of apps - I applied to 10, got interviews at 3, waitlisted and then rejected at 2, and accepted at 1. It is also ranked in the same area as you were mentioning your program is, and one of my biggest hesitations is attending a program that is possibly looked down on by others in the field. It just seems like a cop out to me that I could possibly be attending these prestigious programs that are research-based, and instead I might end up at this program that is decidedly more clinical. On the bright side, I started this whole process with the hopes of pursuing a clinical career, but claimed to be pretty research-oriented for the purposes of applying/interviewing. But now I've done that so much that I've got myself thinking that going into a clinical program is also looked down upon, and I should be aiming for academia.

My other huge hesitation is that this program can offer me basically no funding. That is another reason this feels like a cop out - there are so many programs that, while admittedly hard to get into, do offer tuition + stipend packages all the time, yet somehow my stupid self still ended up at a program that requires me to pay THEM a ton of money and get myself into a crapload of debt.

So I don't know what to do. They're breathing down my neck to make a decision and now that I've heard back from both waitlists, I don't have any more reason to drag it out, other than my own debilitating indecision. The idea of a third round of apps isn't very appealing either, though. BAH.

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

As a recent law school graduate who is trying to go into psychology, I would seriously discourage you from attending law school. The legal market is terrible right now unless you go to one of the top 10 schools. Even if you do attend a top school (which I did), you are still going to have a hard time finding a job. Plus, legal work is BORING. All you do all day is sit in an office and stare at a computer screen. And since lawyers work ridiculous hours, this isn't for 40 hours a week, it's for 80..... I've been doing it for about a year now and I'm going slowly crazy! I need interaction with people to function and right now that does not happen often enough.

I hate to break it to you but the market for psychologists is pretty terrible too if not worse. Have you read about the internship and post-doc imbalance before committing to this field? Plus, we go through 5-7 years of graduate school, then 1 year internship, and we still need to accrue 3000 hours before taking the licensing exam (some states require additional coursework and oral exams as well). One can be a lawyer in 3 years vs. about 8-10 years for a psychologist. Getting an APA accredited internship is harder than getting into harvard law school (sites have 150-400 applications for a couple of positions). Plus, the average acceptance rate for clinical PhD's is about 5%. I am in a program where the average acceptance rate is 2-3% and most of my classmates came from IVY's with 3.8 Plus GPA. Now we are working for free or making 23,000 on internship.

 

[Born2rumble1st]

I hate to break it to you but the market for psychologists is pretty terrible too if not worse. Have you read about the internship and post-doc imbalance before committing to this field? Plus, we go through 5-7 years of graduate school, then 1 year internship, and we still need to accrue 3000 hours before taking the licensing exam (some states require additional coursework and oral exams as well). One can be a lawyer in 3 years vs. about 8-10 years for a psychologist. Getting an APA accredited internship is harder than getting into harvard law school (sites have 150-400 applications for a couple of positions). Plus, the average acceptance rate for clinical PhD's is about 5%. I am in a program where the average acceptance rate is 2-3% and most of my classmates came from IVY's with 3.8 Plus GPA. Now we are working for free or making 23,000 on internship.

I definitely don't have any delusions about the state of the psychology field right now. (And if I did, the threads on this board would have certainly shattered them!) But I do think there is a major difference between law school and psych Ph.D.'s: how your success is measured in law school is purely a matter of your GPA and the rank of your law school. You can't do anything about rank once you accept an offer, and grades are quite frankly completely arbitrary, particularly at the top schools. Once you get to Harvard, EVERYONE in the class is smart and works hard, yet the dreaded curve makes sure that only 10% of the class will get an A. And when your GPA makes such a big difference in your employment prospects (particularly your first year of law school GPA), this is really discouraging. Essentially, you are fighting a losing battle that you can do nothing to change.

In comparison, psych Ph.D.'s and later employment prospects have less to do with one exam you take at the end of a class, and more to do with your long term success. (i.e. how many publications you have, clinical hours, etc.) These are things that theoretically EVERY student can achieve if they work hard enough. There's no weeding out on the basis of arbitrary distinctions that employers later weigh heavily in their decisions to hire you. That's not to say that getting a job/internship in psych isn't going to be hard; I'm frankly terrified of that part of my career! But, at least I have the belief that my outcome is not as predetermined as it can be in law.

Finally, I'm not switching careers because finding a job is hard. As I said, I was lucky enough to graduate from a top school with a decent GPA - I could have a job in the legal field if I wanted one. I'm switching because I'm not satisfied with the trajectory that my life was headed in. I don't want to spend 80 hours a week holed up in an office writing endless legal memos that few people ever read. I want to make a real difference in people's lives (or at the very least get to SEE people every day.....). I firmly believe that my Ph.D. program can set me on the path to doing that. And I'm more than willing to do the work that's required to put me in a position to achieve everything I'm looking for.

All I was saying to OP, was that law school and a legal career is not the easy path that everyone seems to think it is. Getting into law school may be easier than getting into a clinical Psych program, but, in the end, finding a job may be MORE difficult, and you'll have fewer options to improve that situation.

 

[Venny]

Wow, we are in basically the exact same position, except I'm dragging out responding to my offer until the last second. Our stats/undergrad/post-grad experiences are almost identical too.

This is my second round of apps - I applied to 10, got interviews at 3, waitlisted and then rejected at 2, and accepted at 1. It is also ranked in the same area as you were mentioning your program is, and one of my biggest hesitations is attending a program that is possibly looked down on by others in the field. It just seems like a cop out to me that I could possibly be attending these prestigious programs that are research-based, and instead I might end up at this program that is decidedly more clinical. On the bright side, I started this whole process with the hopes of pursuing a clinical career, but claimed to be pretty research-oriented for the purposes of applying/interviewing. But now I've done that so much that I've got myself thinking that going into a clinical program is also looked down upon, and I should be aiming for academia.

My other huge hesitation is that this program can offer me basically no funding. That is another reason this feels like a cop out - there are so many programs that, while admittedly hard to get into, do offer tuition + stipend packages all the time, yet somehow my stupid self still ended up at a program that requires me to pay THEM a ton of money and get myself into a crapload of debt.

So I don't know what to do. They're breathing down my neck to make a decision and now that I've heard back from both waitlists, I don't have any more reason to drag it out, other than my own debilitating indecision. The idea of a third round of apps isn't very appealing either, though. BAH.

I PM'd you.