Benefit of MBA in EM

[Roy7]

Hey everyone,

I'm a 3rd year student interested in EM and was noticing that a lot of EM doctors have gotten MBA's after completing residency. A few of which were working in academic environments.

I was wondering what the benefits of having an MBA and it's possible uses.

I guess another topic that may have been discussed elsewhere (but I didnt see a thread), was some estimate of salary range? Everyone in the mentor forum stresses "compare apples to apples", and whenever reading surveys regarding EM income the information seems to vary sooo much it's a little ridiculous.

Thanks for all the advice and info in advance.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[bluejay68]

In regard to the usefullness of an MBA in Emergency Medicine, I see it as a natural fit since so many business principles are at play in the Emergency Department (utilization of scarce resources, patient flow, etc). I'm finding that an MBA will open some doors, but is definitely not a requirement by any means to get involved in the "business of EM". A few of the more senior attendings have confided in me that they wished that they had an MBA, but they seem to be doing quite well without one. Anyway, I'm about halfway done with a 4-year program, so we'll see which opportunities will be available to me as I start to look for attending positions, hopefully I'll be viewed as an applicant that brings a unique skill set to the table with the potential to contribute right away towards improving patient care (I did a combined MD/MBA).

For the salary question, it's very accurate that it "depends". There is the Academic versus Community factor and then the Regional Factor. And then you have to consider the total compensation package, for which your base salary is a significant factor but not the whole story. Consider bonus potential, malpractice coverage, work hours, RVU's per hour, etc. So you can see the answer is not so straigthforward; however, to give you a "ballpark" answer, the low end of the salary range would be in an Academic setting in a saturated region such as Southern California, New York or Boston where the base salaries usually start in the mid to high $100's (with good malpractice coverage and protected time for research...) and the high end would be over $300K in a community setting in the South/Midwest with the expectation of seeing a ton of patients. If anyone else has better info on this, feel free to chime in.

 

[bumpy006]

Hello, this is my first time on SDN and I would just like to say hello to all of my fellow EMer's 😀. It seems like this sight will be very valuble throughout the application process. I have been looking around and I haven't been able to find any information on EM residencies that provide combo MBA opportunites during residency. I thought you might have an idea .....any help would be appreciated

 

[bluejay68]

I don't know of any EM residency programs that accommodate an MBA (or any other additional degree) during training, since the RRC requirements pretty much take up all of your time. With a 4 year program, you usually get 3-6 months of "elective" time, but this is usually scattered throughout the last 2 years, which would not give you the large chunk of time necessary to get an additional full-time degree. A lot of folks choose to work part-time as an attending after finishing residency while they are attending a masters program full time (usually an MPH). I've seen residents in a general surgery program use the 1-2 years they typically have for research towards an MBA, but EM residencies don't have the same structure. As a result, I'd say to look for the opportunity to get the MBA either during med school and before residency in a combined degree program or after residency. If you look around the Med Business forum, you will find a lot more info on the MD/MBA, and subsequent posts should probably be focused there if they are not EM-specific.

 

[Roy7]

In regard to the usefullness of an MBA in Emergency Medicine, I see it as a natural fit since so many business principles are at play in the Emergency Department (utilization of scarce resources, patient flow, etc). I'm finding that an MBA will open some doors, but is definitely not a requirement by any means to get involved in the "business of EM". A few of the more senior attendings have confided in me that they wished that they had an MBA, but they seem to be doing quite well without one. Anyway, I'm about halfway done with a 4-year program, so we'll see which opportunities will be available to me as I start to look for attending positions, hopefully I'll be viewed as an applicant that brings a unique skill set to the table with the potential to contribute right away towards improving patient care (I did a combined MD/MBA).

For the salary question, it's very accurate that it "depends". There is the Academic versus Community factor and then the Regional Factor. And then you have to consider the total compensation package, for which your base salary is a significant factor but not the whole story. Consider bonus potential, malpractice coverage, work hours, RVU's per hour, etc. So you can see the answer is not so straigthforward; however, to give you a "ballpark" answer, the low end of the salary range would be in an Academic setting in a saturated region such as Southern California, New York or Boston where the base salaries usually start in the mid to high $100's (with good malpractice coverage and protected time for research...) and the high end would be over $300K in a community setting in the South/Midwest with the expectation of seeing a ton of patients. If anyone else has better info on this, feel free to chime in.

Thanks for the response! I'm kinda confused about what you mean about the business of EM - do you mean in terms of individual groups/companies (I'm not sure if this is the right term, but when various EM doctors work for one company which contracts them out)? Or in terms of managing patients and insurance in a hospital environment? Also would this correllate to better individual earnings or ease of the field? The reason I'm askin is because an MBA's not a really cheap degree, and I'm not really sure if it'd be worth it financially or if I'd be better just reading books to learn the information on my own.

Thanks again, I really appreciate all the advice info.

 

[bluejay68]

I'll try to clarify; in terms of simply managing an Emergency Department, a full MBA would probably be overkill (but also helpful). You could probably get what you need from books, seminars, experience, etc. However, if you really like solving "business" type problems (How do we increase profits? How do we cut costs? How can we improve patient (i.e., customer) satisfaction? How can we improve our product (health care delivery)?) as much or more than seeing patients as a clinician and see your career migrating more towards answering these questions over time, then an MBA will open some doors for you to focus on these interests. Also, if you have career aspirations of managing more than just the ED, for example, VP of operations for a big hospital or health care system, CEO, etc; an MBA would be a great asset (again, not absolutely required, but helpful).

Each specialty has it's own unique financial/business model regarding how they attract patients, bill for services, etc and EM is no exception. I always found it interesting that little to no effort was spent in medical school teaching us this; if I am going into a profession, it makes sense to me to understand how I will make money ahead of time. Anyway, I won't get into the details of CPT codes and the like here, but you definitely don't need an MBA to understand this stuff.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Personally, I plan on getting an MBA once residency is over. I live close to the B school here and I think it would be really helpful with acheiving my future goals.

Also, I agree I doubt you will find a residency that incorporates an MBA. Simply too much to do during your 3 or 4 yrs.

 

[ditch doctor]

I don't know of any EM residency programs that accommodate an MBA (or any other additional degree) during training, since the RRC requirements pretty much take up all of your time. With a 4 year program, you usually get 3-6 months of "elective" time, but this is usually scattered throughout the last 2 years, which would not give you the large chunk of time necessary to get an additional full-time degree. A lot of folks choose to work part-time as an attending after finishing residency while they are attending a masters program full time (usually an MPH). I've seen residents in a general surgery program use the 1-2 years they typically have for research towards an MBA, but EM residencies don't have the same structure. As a result, I'd say to look for the opportunity to get the MBA either during med school and before residency in a combined degree program or after residency. If you look around the Med Business forum, you will find a lot more info on the MD/MBA, and subsequent posts should probably be focused there if they are not EM-specific.

There are fellowships, such as EMS, that can include a MPH, for what it's worth.

 

[southerndoc]

Johns Hopkins EM allows one to earn a masters degree or pursue a fellowship within their new four-year residency format.

A few other programs will allow you to go to school part-time during residency.

 

[mward04]

I'm a second year at Cincinnati and finished my MBA before residency. I cannot emphasize how happy I am that I did it this way. I've had so many doors open for me both in med school and already in residency. Doing the MBA after residency is very tough. The last thing you want to do at that point is to go back to school. Plus, a lot of people have families at this point and they're finally earning real pay checks.

Regardless, the MBA was a no brainer for me. I plan on doing more consulting, business development and administration with mine. But I echo the previous sentiments that EM + MBA is a great combo, especially for administration.

Mike

Personally, I plan on getting an MBA once residency is over. I live close to the B school here and I think it would be really helpful with acheiving my future goals.

Also, I agree I doubt you will find a residency that incorporates an MBA. Simply too much to do during your 3 or 4 yrs.