Benefits of the 6 year OMFS route

[bruin2013]

What are the tangible benefits. Fellowships are easier to attain. Medical Knowledge. Academics and place in a hospital setting. Ego. These are all pluses. Is there a difference in billing and practice? Are some medical reimbursements better?

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[Combine33]

If you want to join academia in the future, the 6 year dual-degree is what you want.

 

[Anonymomfs]

If you want to join academia in the future, the 6 year dual-degree is what you want.

This guy's post history contains such gems as "The difference between God and an Oral Surgeon is that God doesnt think hes an OS." Judging by his post history I assume he's a perio resident or applying to perio. I have nothing against this, but information is as good as its source.

There are plenty of single-degree surgeons in academic positions. Will you become a chief of staff of a hospital or chancellor of a medical school without an MD? Probably not, but I don't think most oral surgeons go into the field to do that (although it's not unheard of. Dr. Ghali at LSU comes to mind). The relationship between those with MDs and those in academic positions is more of a correlation than causation. I.e., someone who wants to go into academics starts out down the MD path, while those who know they don't want to go into it won't. It's not a matter of hiring advantage.

All of the plusses you mentioned hold water. Some people value those more than others. There's no tangible difference in billing or practice. Some hospitals are more hesitant to give single-degree surgeons operating and admitting privileges. For example, I know a single-degree surgeon at a Kaiser hospital who was initially met with resistance but eventually persisted. I know another single-degree surgeon who had to make a presentation to a hospital's board to get admitting privileges. Guys and gals with MDs usually don't have to do those things. If you push hard enough through the bureaucracy you can usually overcome these barriers, but you don't have to push much with an MD. Is that, combined with all of the above, worth the extra 2 years and tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars? I don't know. The world is your oyster. I did it; don't regret it.

There's a lot of political headwind, especially in California, toward taking away dentists' sedation rights. AAOMS is fighting it hard (and well, I might add). But who knows where the landscape will take us. Will future sedation privileges be limited to those with MDs? (I should add here that this is not even being proposed. This is pure speculation.) Will sedation billing be limited to those with MDs? Will other procedure billing be limited to MDs? Couldn't tell you. What I can tell you is that it isn't right now.

 

[BlackThought]

Ego.

 

[deleted913442]

This guy's post history contains such gems as "The difference between God and an Oral Surgeon is that God doesnt think hes an OS." Judging by his post history I assume he's a perio resident or applying to perio. I have nothing against this, but information is as good as its source.

There are plenty of single-degree surgeons in academic positions. Will you become a chief of staff of a hospital or chancellor of a medical school without an MD? Probably not, but I don't think most oral surgeons go into the field to do that (although it's not unheard of. Dr. Ghali at LSU comes to mind). The relationship between those with MDs and those in academic positions is more of a correlation than causation. I.e., someone who wants to go into academics starts out down the MD path, while those who know they don't want to go into it won't. It's not a matter of hiring advantage.

All of the plusses you mentioned hold water. Some people value those more than others. There's no tangible difference in billing or practice. Some hospitals are more hesitant to give single-degree surgeons operating and admitting privileges. For example, I know a single-degree surgeon at a Kaiser hospital who was initially met with resistance but eventually persisted. I know another single-degree surgeon who had to make a presentation to a hospital's board to get admitting privileges. Guys and gals with MDs usually don't have to do those things. If you push hard enough through the bureaucracy you can usually overcome these barriers, but you don't have to push much with an MD. Is that, combined with all of the above, worth the extra 2 years and tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars? I don't know. The world is your oyster. I did it; don't regret it.

There's a lot of political headwind, especially in California, toward taking away dentists' sedation rights. AAOMS is fighting it hard (and well, I might add). But who knows where the landscape will take us. Will future sedation privileges be limited to those with MDs? (I should add here that this is not even being proposed. This is pure speculation.) Will sedation billing be limited to those with MDs? Will other procedure billing be limited to MDs? Couldn't tell you. What I can tell you is that it isn't right now.

Great post. From talking to some 6yr people, getting an MD seems to be like a “safety blanket” for if things were to change in the future. Would you agree?

Did the extra loans cause a burden on you at all? Or have they been manageable if you live below your means for a few years.

 

[Combine33]

This guy's post history contains such gems as "The difference between God and an Oral Surgeon is that God doesnt think hes an OS." Judging by his post history I assume he's a perio resident or applying to perio. I have nothing against this, but information is as good as its source.

There are plenty of single-degree surgeons in academic positions. Will you become a chief of staff of a hospital or chancellor of a medical school without an MD? Probably not, but I don't think most oral surgeons go into the field to do that (although it's not unheard of. Dr. Ghali at LSU comes to mind). The relationship between those with MDs and those in academic positions is more of a correlation than causation. I.e., someone who wants to go into academics starts out down the MD path, while those who know they don't want to go into it won't. It's not a matter of hiring advantage.

All of the plusses you mentioned hold water. Some people value those more than others. There's no tangible difference in billing or practice. Some hospitals are more hesitant to give single-degree surgeons operating and admitting privileges. For example, I know a single-degree surgeon at a Kaiser hospital who was initially met with resistance but eventually persisted. I know another single-degree surgeon who had to make a presentation to a hospital's board to get admitting privileges. Guys and gals with MDs usually don't have to do those things. If you push hard enough through the bureaucracy you can usually overcome these barriers, but you don't have to push much with an MD. Is that, combined with all of the above, worth the extra 2 years and tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars? I don't know. The world is your oyster. I did it; don't regret it.

There's a lot of political headwind, especially in California, toward taking away dentists' sedation rights. AAOMS is fighting it hard (and well, I might add). But who knows where the landscape will take us. Will future sedation privileges be limited to those with MDs? (I should add here that this is not even being proposed. This is pure speculation.) Will sedation billing be limited to those with MDs? Will other procedure billing be limited to MDs? Couldn't tell you. What I can tell you is that it isn't right now.

Prime example of my quote you used. I'm here to help and I voiced my opinion, which OP asked for. This has nothing to do with whatever beef you have so please chill out.

 

[Anonymomfs]

Prime example of my quote you used. I'm here to help and I voiced my opinion, which OP asked for. This has nothing to do with whatever beef you have so please chill out.

Person 1: Here is my opinion on something I don't know much about, on a field that I've openly disrespected in the past.
Person 2: I don't have a problem with you, but maybe you don't know so much about this. Here's a real answer.
Person 1: ZOMG STOP ATTACKING ME THIS IS WHY I DISRESPECT YOU!

 

[tooth-tastic]

 

[Anonymomfs]

Great post. From talking to some 6yr people, getting an MD seems to be like a “safety blanket” for if things were to change in the future. Would you agree?

Did the extra loans cause a burden on you at all? Or have they been manageable if you live below your means for a few years.

Yeah I think the MD is nice to have because of a combination of all of the factors that you mentioned. I also think that just being around the MDs from so many different specialties taught me intangible but valuable things about being a doctor (and general life lessons) that I personally wouldn't have picked up from just a few months on general surgery (like you would do in a 4 year program). But I know some damn good surgeons who went to four-year programs, and those people may not have needed what I gained from med school. Everyone's a little different. You make the decision for yourself and nobody else.

As far as loans, moonlighting helped a ton. I've commented on this a little in the past. It was hard watching my friends in other specialties "start their lives" while I was still slogging through general surgery rotations, but OMS catches up and catches up quick. That being said, I definitely spent a lot of time budgeting and consciously thinking about financial strategy while I was in residency.

 

[deleted913442]

Yeah I think the MD is nice to have because of a combination of all of the factors that you mentioned. I also think that just being around the MDs from so many different specialties taught me intangible but valuable things about being a doctor (and general life lessons) that I personally wouldn't have picked up from just a few months on general surgery (like you would do in a 4 year program). But I know some damn good surgeons who went to four-year programs, and those people may not have needed what I gained from med school. Everyone's a little different. You make the decision for yourself and nobody else.

As far as loans, moonlighting helped a ton. I've commented on this a little in the past. It was hard watching my friends in other specialties "start their lives" while I was still slogging through general surgery rotations, but OMS catches up and catches up quick. That being said, I definitely spent a lot of time budgeting and consciously thinking about financial strategy while I was in residency.

Did you only moonlight during the Med School years (since you had the time to)? If so what was a weekly schedule like? I’ve heard of people just going in during the week and skipping classes to work then catch up later (even though we’ve learned this stuff before)

 

[Anonymomfs]

Did you only moonlight during the Med School years (since you had the time to)? If so what was a weekly schedule like? I’ve heard of people just going in during the week and skipping classes to work then catch up later (even though we’ve learned this stuff before)

The overwhelming majority was during med school and a little during general surgery (I handed down my offices to junior residents in my program so the offices weren't left hanging). I averaged about 3-4 days/month during med school and 1 day/month during GS. When I was back on OMS service I stopped so I could focus my attention on the thing in which I was making this grand sacrifice. I was fortunate to find offices that were open on weekends. When I had the opportunity I would move things around to accommodate moonlighting, but I take a lot of pride in the fact that I never skipped a required activity of med school to moonlight. I did know residents above and below me that would skip occasionally and use weekends to make up when they didn't have weekend offices.

 

[Svart Aske]

It seems like some of the best known OMS guys are single degree surgeons (Boyne, Marx, Misch, Block, Moy, Sclar, Pikos etc.). But they tend to be more dentoalveolar guys except for Marx. Just an observation and probably doesn’t mean anything.

 

[Sublimazing]

It seems like some of the best known OMS guys are single degree surgeons (Boyne, Marx, Misch, Block, Moy, Sclar, Pikos etc.). But they tend to be more dentoalveolar guys except for Marx. Just an observation and probably doesn’t mean anything.

those guys are best known to non omfs dental providers. The most famous surgeons as picked by OMFS would be a different list...but i think the biggest names on either list are going to be mostly older guys who trained before the dual degree was widely available.

 

[avangusva]

I have never met (or maybe they won't admit it) a 6-year dual degree OMFS who says they regret the two extra years of training. I have met many 4-year single degree OMFS who say they do regret not pursuing the 6-year training for whatever reason.

I'd also like to add that I've met many single degree OMFS that say it didn't matter at all. This topic comes up so often and there's really nothing to add to this discussion except anecdotal findings. I am at a 6-year program, finished medical school in 2019. I am super happy with my decision and I feel like it was the best fit for me. There were/are definitely times I think about how I could have been done with residency in one short month, or have flickers of jealousy seeing dental school classmates continuing on to buy their practices or homes getting their careers nicely settled. I was not allowed to moonlight at my program (just depends which program you're at), so the MD came at a significant expense of ~2 years of tuition (~15k a year for us at UTSW) and added dental school student loan interest accrual. I think someone crunched the numbers of added tuition, interest accrual and two years of lost OMFS income and the opportunity cost ended up being around $1,000,000.

That's a lot of money. If you can't imagine giving up a single potential dollar earned, then it's pretty obvious what you need to do. I have and will continue to encourage people to do their own soul searching regarding the best fit for their specific needs. If you really want to know my opinion, I think we are very lucky to have the opportunity to go to medical school and earn a MD. I think you'd be crazy to give that up over 2 added years of training. But I also recognize everyone has different priorities and I can respect their opinions on the 4 > 6 debate.

 

[Anonymomfs]

Why are you lucky? You worked very hard and are as competitive as other medical students? It’s not like you didn’t earn a spot to get in.

I can’t speak entirely for avangusva but the advent of 6-year programs is somewhat recent. MGH started it only a few decades ago, and until the 80’s or so the number of programs that offered it were in the single digits.

Our predecessors had to show their worth to the medical world, and program directors regularly meet with medical school admins to make sure their program gets spots in the class every year. It’s not like medical schools have a shortage of applicants, especially some of the most prestigious in the country (7 out of US news and world report top 10 med schools offer dual degree programs). So it’s neat that we can be granted admission when we don’t “need” it.

 

[avangusva]

Why are you lucky? You worked very hard and are as competitive as other medical students? It’s not like you didn’t earn a spot to get in.

What I should say is that it’s an opportunity not many others have. Make no mistake about it, I busted my ass and definitely earned my medical degree. However, it is also a privilege that I don’t take for granted.

 

[deleted923283]

I have met many 4-year single degree OMFS who say they do regret not pursuing the 6-year training for whatever reason.

I’d be curious to hear these reasons if you know them.

 

[deleted913442]

I’d be curious to hear these reasons if you know them.

From a few 4yr guys I've spoken to who wish they would have pursued the 6yr, they end up loving the medical side of things and wish they would have pursued it to get a better medical foundation. some also realize that you can make so much money doing private practice and they have always lived modestly, so the loss of income/extra debt is more manageable than we think. No matter the path, both will be very successful.. how much money do you really need to be happy? if you want mansions and sick cars then a 4yr would be smarter. if you enjoy the educational side of things and want to be a more well-rounded doctor (not surgeon), then the MD sounds like the right move.

thats what it came off as when I spoke to the few 4yr guys who wished they pursued 6yrs.

 

[avangusva]

I’d be curious to hear these reasons if you know them.

Few have been for fellowship purposes, although one of them ended up matching and will continue to do well. Others mentioned branding themselves in the facial cosmetics world could have been easier with a MD. Ultimately, either of these things can be done as a single-degree surgeon. Plenty of head and neck surgeons are single degree, and many facial cosmetic surgeons are also practicing under their DDS/DMD and doing well.

 

[Xtract]

when applying and ranking programs that have both 4 and 6 year routes, do you rank the program once or do you have to rank 4yr/6yr at individual slots?

edit: how does interviewing go for that as well?

 

[deleted913442]

when applying and ranking programs that have both 4 and 6 year routes, do you rank the program once or do you have to rank 4yr/6yr at individual slots?

edit: how does interviewing go for that as well?

People are gonna tell you that you can’t apply to both and that they’ll trash your application.. but that’s false. I know of a program that is totally ok with you applying to both (some friends of mine in residency did). It depends on the program, so you’d have to ask what their policy is on this. I know it takes up 2 spots on your rank list, though, if you were to rank both. With regards to the interviewing side, I’m not sure.

 

[chomuballer]

the only one I know of that explicitly states you cannot apply to both is Uconn. @TeethAndTitanium why do people say they trash your application if you apply to both 4 and 6 year?

 

[Van Der Woude]

Biggest benefit of a 6 year program is that you can match into one out of school alot easier than a 4. some guys do years for the 4 year spot at some programs.

 

[DDSER1]

the only one I know of that explicitly states you cannot apply to both is Uconn. @TeethAndTitanium why do people say they trash your application if you apply to both 4 and 6 year?

I heard from a resident at BU that they trash your application if you apply to both at BU. I don’t know about any other programs, was just speaking off of what my friend told me. Im sure each program is different so do your research before applying

 

[Anonymomfs]

Biggest benefit of a 6 year program is that you can match into one out of school alot easier than a 4. some guys do years for the 4 year spot at some programs.

not true.

 

[bruin2013]

Biggest benefit of a 6 year program is that you can match into one out of school alot easier than a 4. some guys do years for the 4 year spot at some programs.

Way more applicants to 4 years programs. Many tend to prefer interns. Think this may be true.

 

[C.elegans]

Way more applicants to 4 years programs. Many tend to prefer interns. Think this may be true.

More applicants doesn't necessarily mean more competitive. Example: Harvard Medical School receives on average 6800 applicants per cycle while LECOM received around 16000 applicants.

 

[bruin2013]

More applicants doesn't necessarily mean more competitive. Example: Harvard Medical School receives on average 6800 applicants per cycle while LECOM received around 16000 applicants.

Comparing apples and oranges. Some of the best programs are 4 year programs. But doesn’t matter. 4 year programs across the board receive way more applicants.

 

[deleted913442]

Comparing apples and oranges. Some of the best programs are 4 year programs. But doesn’t matter. 4 year programs across the board receive way more applicants.

Source? Or are you just assuming.

Also what do you think the best 4yr programs are and why? Curious. Parkland and Alabama are 2 of the best programs in the country from talking to attendings at my school and they’re both 6yrs (not saying 4yrs are bad, I just don’t know what the “best” ones are).

 

[IOPEU]

Way more applicants to 4 years programs. Many tend to prefer interns. Think this may be true.

Can you provide the source?

 

[Sforzando]

Comparing apples and oranges. Some of the best programs are 4 year programs. But doesn’t matter. 4 year programs across the board receive way more applicants.

More applicants doesn't necessarily mean more competitive. Example: Harvard Medical School receives on average 6800 applicants per cycle while LECOM received around 16000 applicants.

Isn't this the point that is being made?

 

[avangusva]

The number of applicants really doesn't mean much in my opinion. Some people can be terrible, noncompetitive applicants that just "shoot their shot" to a 4 year. For example, 55 CBSE, low class rank and GPA, applies to a 4 year because they think that gives them a better chance. If you define a competitive applicant based on CBSE score than the answer is simple-- which one has higher average CBSE for admittance, 4 vs 6?

 

[P7898]

Person 1: Here is my opinion on something I don't know much about, on a field that I've openly disrespected in the past.
Person 2: I don't have a problem with you, but maybe you don't know so much about this. Here's a real answer.
Person 1: ZOMG STOP ATTACKING ME THIS IS WHY I DISRESPECT YOU!

Don't make me bring my uncle who is a neurosurgeon on here...... lets all respect one another. Be the bigger person always.

 

[piratewow]

The number of applicants really doesn't mean much in my opinion. Some people can be terrible, noncompetitive applicants that just "shoot their shot" to a 4 year. For example, 55 CBSE, low class rank and GPA, applies to a 4 year because they think that gives them a better chance. If you define a competitive applicant based on CBSE score than the answer is simple-- which one has higher average CBSE for admittance, 4 vs 6?

This is what I've heard as well. For some non-anecdotal evidence there's this article from JOMS published recently that studied the incoming resident class of 2019 which roughly says "for 4 year programs the mean CBSE score ranged from 52 to 76.5, with an overall mean of 63.3(n=19), and for the 6YPs, the mean CBSE score ranged from 63 to 83.7, with an overall mean of 75.0(n=11)."

I don't know about you guys but a 11.7 point difference seems pretty significant to me. Obviously intangibles/subjective things like "leadership", "passion", etc. could vary between 4 vs 6 yrs residents, but I doubt by a significant margin. Feel free to correct me if my interpretation is wrong, as I'm just a dental student so I don't really know the nitty-gritty stuff involved in resident selection.

EDIT: You need to access the full article to see the information cited.

 

[IOPEU]

This is what I've heard as well. For some non-anecdotal evidence there's this article from JOMS published recently that studied the incoming resident class of 2019 which roughly says "for 4 year programs the mean CBSE score ranged from 52 to 76.5, with an overall mean of 63.3(n=19), and for the 6YPs, the mean CBSE score ranged from 63 to 83.7, with an overall mean of 75.0(n=11)."

I don't know about you guys but a 11.7 point difference seems pretty significant to me. Obviously intangibles/subjective things like "leadership", "passion", etc. could vary between 4 vs 6 yrs residents, but I doubt by a significant margin. Feel free to correct me if my interpretation is wrong, as I'm just a dental student so I don't really know the nitty-gritty stuff involved in resident selection.

Hope that is true because I'm applying to 4 yr programs 🙂

 

[GimmeTheScalpel]

Source? Or are you just assuming.

Also what do you think the best 4yr programs are and why? Curious. Parkland and Alabama are 2 of the best programs in the country from talking to attendings at my school and they’re both 6yrs (not saying 4yrs are bad, I just don’t know what the “best” ones are).

Best is a very arbitrary term. Different people look for different things. Those who are interested in bread and butter oral surgery might say that UCLA is the best for their implant volume and education. Those who want a robust trauma experience will say many of the southern programs, or Rutgers or NYU. For Orthognathic, some might say UNC is the best with Tim Turvey or Michigan with Sean Edwards. You want cancer? Dr. Fernandes at Jax is a legend. TMJ? Check out Penn. Some prioritize a top medical education. In that case MGH and Columbia are really good. There’s no best. There is a sizable crop of really strong reputable programs.
Anyway for 4 year programs, I’ve heard great things about Monte, Vanderbilt Medstar, UIC, NYU, Rutgers, Oklahoma.

 

[C.elegans]

Best is a very arbitrary term. Different people look for different things. Those who are interested in bread and butter oral surgery might say that UCLA is the best for their implant volume and education. Those who want a robust trauma experience will say many of the southern programs, or Rutgers or NYU. For Orthognathic, some might say UNC is the best with Tim Turvey or Michigan with Sean Edwards. You want cancer? Dr. Fernandes at Jax is a legend. TMJ? Check out Penn. Some prioritize a top medical education. In that case MGH and Columbia are really good. There’s no best. There is a sizable crop of really strong reputable programs.
Anyway for 4 year programs, I’ve heard great things about Monte, Vanderbilt Medstar, UIC, NYU, Rutgers, Oklahoma.

GimmeTheScalpel spreading the wisdom as always. Although there are probably few objectively terrible programs like in any specialty, a quality of a program really depends on your priorities. For example, location+program culture+medical education were the priority for me when I applied. I had to rlly swallow my tears and give up applying to some phenomenal programs like Shreveport due to its location and this held true when I made up my final rank list. Do I regret it? Not one moment.

 

[bruin2013]

Source? Or are you just assuming.

Also what do you think the best 4yr programs are and why? Curious. Parkland and Alabama are 2 of the best programs in the country from talking to attendings at my school and they’re both 6yrs (not saying 4yrs are bad, I just don’t know what the “best” ones are).

On average 4 year programs get double the amount of applicants than 6 years, due to the CBSE cutoffs many med schools have. You’re right, many 6 year programs are superior to 4 year programs and vice versa. 2 years of med school isn’t the reason why. I wouldn’t base the strength of program based on if it’s 4 or 6, but rather the strength of training.

 

[bruin2013]

The number of applicants really doesn't mean much in my opinion. Some people can be terrible, noncompetitive applicants that just "shoot their shot" to a 4 year. For example, 55 CBSE, low class rank and GPA, applies to a 4 year because they think that gives them a better chance. If you define a competitive applicant based on CBSE score than the answer is simple-- which one has higher average CBSE for admittance, 4 vs 6?

If that was the definition, every 75+ would match. Much more goes into play. CBSE opens the application. Letters, PS, Externship, and most importantly personality and fit get the spot. On average most programs have 2-3 spots. If a program was looking for their spots to only be filled by 70’s and above I would argue PD’s would have an easy time.

 

[bruin2013]

Best is a very arbitrary term. Different people look for different things. Those who are interested in bread and butter oral surgery might say that UCLA is the best for their implant volume and education. Those who want a robust trauma experience will say many of the southern programs, or Rutgers or NYU. For Orthognathic, some might say UNC is the best with Tim Turvey or Michigan with Sean Edwards. You want cancer? Dr. Fernandes at Jax is a legend. TMJ? Check out Penn. Some prioritize a top medical education. In that case MGH and Columbia are really good. There’s no best. There is a sizable crop of really strong reputable programs.
Anyway for 4 year programs, I’ve heard great things about Monte, Vanderbilt Medstar, UIC, NYU, Rutgers, Oklahoma.

It is no secret, the best program is the one you match into. If you are lucky enough to match. No question about that.

 

[mmc12]

In an in flight emergency when a flight attendance asks “is there a doctor on board“, can an MD OMFS assist while a non-MD OMFS cannot assist?

 

[bruin2013]

Quick aside: and this is not a dig on my hometown program. UCLA is an amazing programs and offers much more than a stellar med school degree. I assume UCLA matched applicants with higher CBSE scores than say a program like Carle though I cannot be certain.

Tell the kids at Carle that UCLA trains better surgeons then them and see what they say.

Point being, it doesn’t matter how “competitive” you are. Where you train will lay the foundation for your surgical training or your future career. Whatever it may be, the field of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery is a great one and I think mid-career surgeons all appear to be satisfied.

Now let’s stop the pissing contest 😉

 

[deleted1047421]

In an in flight emergency when a flight attendance asks “is there a doctor on board“, can an MD OMFS assist while a non-MD OMFS cannot assist?

Yes

The chairman of my department did when he was a passenger on a flight. He placed an IV and ran ACLS to help another patient. He is single degree, and one of the most well respected names in the country, when it comes to OMFS.

You may not understand this as you are not an oral surgeon, but you can be faced with this situation on a daily basis in your own office. It's called general anesthesia. If your not capable of resuscitating a patient then you shouldn't have a GA permit.

 

[deleted1047421]

There's a lot of political headwind, especially in California, toward taking away dentists' sedation rights. AAOMS is fighting it hard (and well, I might add). But who knows where the landscape will take us. Will future sedation privileges be limited to those with MDs? (I should add here that this is not even being proposed. This is pure speculation.) Will sedation billing be limited to those with MDs? Will other procedure billing be limited to MDs? Couldn't tell you. What I can tell you is that it isn't right now.

You have many good points, but when it comes to the debate on the privileges of anesthesia, it has nothing to do with single vs dual degree.
The debate has to do with a single provider administering the anesthesia and operating at the same time. The operator-anesthetist model.
Any restrictions will fall on both single and dual degree.

Remember the general anesthesia permit is administered by a dental board. Not a medical board.

As you have mentioned California, here is Dr Elo's testimony which I think many of you should read.

https://sbp.senate.ca.gov/sites/sbp.senate.ca.gov/files/Dr.%20Elo%20Testimony.pdf

 

[GimmeTheScalpel]

Yes

The chairman of my department did when he was a passenger on a flight. He placed an IV and ran ACLS to help another patient. He is single degree, and one of the most well respected names in the country, when it comes to OMFS.

You may not understand this as you are not an oral surgeon, but you can be faced with this situation on a daily basis in your own office. It's called general anesthesia. If your not capable of resuscitating a patient then you shouldn't have a GA permit.

UW?

 

[Life of Pablo]

This is what I've heard as well. For some non-anecdotal evidence there's this article from JOMS published recently that studied the incoming resident class of 2019 which roughly says "for 4 year programs the mean CBSE score ranged from 52 to 76.5, with an overall mean of 63.3(n=19), and for the 6YPs, the mean CBSE score ranged from 63 to 83.7, with an overall mean of 75.0(n=11)."

I don't know about you guys but a 11.7 point difference seems pretty significant to me. Obviously intangibles/subjective things like "leadership", "passion", etc. could vary between 4 vs 6 yrs residents, but I doubt by a significant margin. Feel free to correct me if my interpretation is wrong, as I'm just a dental student so I don't really know the nitty-gritty stuff involved in resident selection.

EDIT: You need to access the full article to see the information cited.

Wait wait wait...........but according to SDN, you need at LEAST a 70+ to match and a 75-80+ to be competitive. You're telling me that SDN might have some self selection bias 🤔 I'll take any post published on SDN over JOMS any day. Dont @ me.

 

[Anonymomfs]

Don't make me bring my uncle who is a neurosurgeon on here...... lets all respect one another. Be the bigger person always.

You're right. I need to know my place. Your uncle's neurosurgery certificate qualifies him to correct my opinion about dual degree oral surgery programs. While he's taking time out of his day we can ask him what his thoughts are about the number of periods in an ellipsis.

You have many good points, but when it comes to the debate on the privileges of anesthesia, it has nothing to do with single vs dual degree.
The debate has to do with a single provider administering the anesthesia and operating at the same time. The operator-anesthetist model.
Any restrictions will fall on both single and dual degree.

Remember the general anesthesia permit is administered by a dental board. Not a medical board.

As you have mentioned California, here is Dr Elo's testimony which I think many of you should read.

https://sbp.senate.ca.gov/sites/sbp.senate.ca.gov/files/Dr.%20Elo%20Testimony.pdf

I'm well aware of what's going on with the privileges of anesthesia, and that the political storm has nothing to do with our training paths, currently. I noted that I was speculating, and that's all there really is to that. Without getting too far into the weeds, we've seen enough unexpected political change in our lifetime that it's safe to say we have no idea what might happen.

This is what I've heard as well. For some non-anecdotal evidence there's this article from JOMS published recently that studied the incoming resident class of 2019 which roughly says "for 4 year programs the mean CBSE score ranged from 52 to 76.5, with an overall mean of 63.3(n=19), and for the 6YPs, the mean CBSE score ranged from 63 to 83.7, with an overall mean of 75.0(n=11)."

I don't know about you guys but a 11.7 point difference seems pretty significant to me. Obviously intangibles/subjective things like "leadership", "passion", etc. could vary between 4 vs 6 yrs residents, but I doubt by a significant margin. Feel free to correct me if my interpretation is wrong, as I'm just a dental student so I don't really know the nitty-gritty stuff involved in resident selection.

EDIT: You need to access the full article to see the information cited.

This is all you really need to see to know a 6 year program isn't "a lot easier" to match into, as was phrased in someone's original assertion. That's not to say that 4 year programs aren't just as competitive. The applicant pool/number of spots are small enough that every year there could be a variation in competitiveness. What makes a program good is an entirely different discussion, as it seems you all are having. Debate your hearts out. But just for the record, my program is the best in the country.

 

[the_working_cusp]

Debate your hearts out. But just for the record, my program is the best in the country.

which program?

 

[Anonymomfs]

which program?

The best one.

 

[the_working_cusp]

ah yes the one you went to