BEST ECs that the average person could reasonably be expected to accomplish?

[RunningToad]

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Hypothetical scenario:

Lets say we have an above average Joe applying to medical school.

He has a 3.9 GPA, and an 11-11-11-Q on the MCAT.

He is not URM, or have anything else notable about him.

What would be the BEST possible combination of ECs that Joe could accomplish in 3 years of school, plus 3 summers? I'm talking about something that the AVERAGE person could REASONABLY expect to accomplish... but still optimized for getting into medical school.

Here's my attempt:

1) 3 summers of working on a research project, in a basic medical sciences field. Eventually receiving a publication on 4th authorship.

2) Worked a job in the hospital during his school years, working in close contact with physicians and patients.

3) Volunteered year round at 2 different charitable organizations, putting in on average 3 hours per week.

4) Took trips to developing countries to volunteer with healthcare related things.

5) In his spare time played tennis and golf, and won a few minor competitions.

6) Won a couple scholarships for his academics and volunteer work.

Does anyone have anything to add to that?

 

[Narmerguy]

Most average applicants can't afford to travel abroad.

Otherwise I feel this exercise is a little pointless. The average applicant can do almost anything they want. The question is what kind of motivation does the average applicant have to do all these things? There's nothing intellectually that difficult to do research. You might suck at it, but if you just plugged away for 3 years of it, you'd look as good as anyone else barring publications. The chances of you not being able to describe a field that you've worked in for 3 years to some adcom in an interview shouldn't be a challenge if you have average college-level intelligence.

Most of the stuff that makes people stand out is just effort. Grades are mostly effort, research is mostly effort, volunteering is effort, weird hobbies are effort, you see what I mean? There's few tasks that one needs to stand out that requires some innate skill/intelligence to accomplish--but these things certainly make it easier.

 

[Whatyousay]

Hypothetical scenario:

Lets say we have an above average Joe applying to medical school.

He has a 3.9 GPA, and an 11-11-11-Q on the MCAT.

He is not URM, or have anything else notable about him.

What would be the BEST possible combination of ECs that Joe could accomplish in 3 years of school, plus 3 summers? I'm talking about something that the AVERAGE person could REASONABLY expect to accomplish... but still optimized for getting into medical school.

Here's my attempt:

1) 3 summers of working on a research project, in a basic medical sciences field. Eventually receiving a publication on 4th authorship.

2) Worked a job in the hospital during his school years, working in close contact with physicians and patients.

3) Volunteered year round at 2 different charitable organizations, putting in on average 3 hours per week.

4) Took trips to developing countries to volunteer with healthcare related things.

5) In his spare time played tennis and golf, and won a few minor competitions.

6) Won a couple scholarships for his academics and volunteer work.

Does anyone have anything to add to that?

These types of ECs always bug me. Short term healthcare activities always seem like nothing more than resume boosters - what sort of impact can a college student really make in one or two weeks in a foreign country?

If it's a long-term commitment (i.e. Peace Corps), that's a different story, but most of the overseas medical missions that I've seen don't fall under that category.

 

[Narmerguy]

These types of ECs always bug me. Short term healthcare activities always seem like nothing more than resume boosters - what sort of impact can a college student really make in one or two weeks in a foreign country?

If it's a long-term commitment (i.e. Peace Corps), that's a different story, but most of the overseas medical missions that I've seen don't fall under that category.

I agree in that most people do them for resume boosters, but we shouldn't ignore the value these trips have for the student. It's silly to think that the student will contribute meaningfully while there, but it's very easy to appreciate the perspective they may gain about other cultures/countries from going which hopefully impacts their decisions when they return. It sucks that most people just look at these as vacation trips that look nice too.

 

[RunningToad]

I agree in that most people do them for resume boosters, but we shouldn't ignore the value these trips have for the student. It's silly to think that the student will contribute meaningfully while there, but it's very easy to appreciate the perspective they may gain about other cultures/countries from going which hopefully impacts their decisions when they return. It sucks that most people just look at these as vacation trips that look nice too.

Do you work for an ADCOM? You write with such mystique and ambiguity... kind of like a politician who talks a lot but who's words have no meaning.

 

[blizzah]

I agree in that most people do them for resume boosters, but we shouldn't ignore the value these trips have for the student. It's silly to think that the student will contribute meaningfully while there, but it's very easy to appreciate the perspective they may gain about other cultures/countries from going which hopefully impacts their decisions when they return. It sucks that most people just look at these as vacation trips that look nice too.

What if I went on a fun trip to south america or rural asia? I can still gain perpective about other cultures and I still made no contributions to their society. I could make a 500$ donation to the local hospital and make a greater difference than a volunteer does

Difference is I can't/won't put it on AMCAS

 

[Avoidthetiger]

What if I went on a fun trip to south america or rural asia? I can still gain perpective about other cultures and I still made no contributions to their society. I could make a 500$ donation to the local hospital and make a greater difference than a volunteer does

If you travel alot, you could. But you could definitely mention in many secondaries -- regarding with diverse cultures.

Regardless, I don't think 3.9 GPA and 33 MCAT is the average Joe applicant. Nor can you sum up "ONE" best EC. It's everything together that makes a great applicant. And it doesn't have to be the "best" (just a good enough to learn and grow as an individual)

 

[senorsquishie]

This sounds way to specific to be hypothetical 😉

 

[SunKissedG8tr]

These types of ECs always bug me. Short term healthcare activities always seem like nothing more than resume boosters - what sort of impact can a college student really make in one or two weeks in a foreign country?

If it's a long-term commitment (i.e. Peace Corps), that's a different story, but most of the overseas medical missions that I've seen don't fall under that category.

I went on a two week trip to Costa Rica and it did have a HUGE impact on me as well as the other students. I cannot tell you how much I learned and was able to do, plus we saw the villages firsthand and gained a huge appreciation for what we have in the USA. These trips can do a lot for students...I've seen it.

 

[ReptarBar]

you need some leadership activities. just become an officer in a club or two. that is what the "average" person would do, and it is easily doable.

you also need to help the needy/underserved in one of your volunteer activities. many schools have mission statements that specifically say they want to help the needy, so not doing it would be a huge disadvantage.

 

[circulus vitios]

I like how the title says average and then literally everything in the post is significantly above average.

 

[Whatyousay]

I like how the title says average and then literally everything in the post is significantly above average.

👍

 

[Person0715]

I like how the title says average and then literally everything in the post is significantly above average.

Exactly. You messing with us, OP

 

[pfaction]

REALISTICALLY speaking:

1. 1 summer or semester of research, publication optional. But something other than cleaning glassware (except the first week...yeah, we all have to do it.)
2. Shadowing a physician, both in a hospital and a PCP - I'm not sure of how many hours, actually.
3. Volunteering in a hospital - once again, how many hours?
4. A hobby done from at least middle school - seriously, anyone can think of this. Karate, guitar, what have you. Don't have to win awards but it's nice.
5. Community service - not sure how many hours but at least 4-5 documented events.

I think these are average and required.

 

[Narmerguy]

What if I went on a fun trip to south america or rural asia? I can still gain perpective about other cultures and I still made no contributions to their society. I could make a 500$ donation to the local hospital and make a greater difference than a volunteer does

Difference is I can't/won't put it on AMCAS

Well, the perspective you gain of some international country/region as a tourist as someone that interacts with the "locals" on a day-to-day basis is typically quite different. I'm not sure you'd gain the same kind of perspective. A $500 donation to the local hospital might indeed have a bigger impact than some volunteer just providing another warm body, but I'm not suggesting that these trips should be done for the impact they have on the host community. I think these trips can be valuable because when you work 8-10 hours every day with others in their community trying to accomplish some goal, you see a different perspective than if you're just rolling by dropping benjamins everywhere you go.

Do you work for an ADCOM? You write with such mystique and ambiguity... kind of like a politician who talks a lot but who's words have no meaning.

I'm not sure it was supposed to be a mysterious post. If it seems like I'm not fully committing to one side that's simply because I believe it's a complex issue that is often oversimplified as being wholly wasteful/worthless or worthy of a CNN Heroes feature. I struggled with whether I was wasting my time/money when I was working abroad and whether the community would have been better served if I just cut them a large check. My hope is that others will ponder these decisions seriously because though several thousand dollars can go a long way in a developing country, there is more to be gained than what money buys.

 

[RunningToad]

I like how the title says average and then literally everything in the post is significantly above average.

The point of this topic is ECs. If I made our average Joe have a 27O MCAT and a 3.5 GPA, that would be considered the "average" applicant, but he would have little hope of getting into medical school because his academics weren't good enough.

The point of the topic is to think "For an applicant who's academics are not limiting him from getting into medical school, what would be the ideal combination of ECs, that could be reasonably be accomplished in 3 years of school and part time job?"

 

[pfaction]

Some people don't work. I think mine is actually completely average.

 

[random cell]

Best EC? Being the son of a billionaire.

 

[circulus vitios]

The point of this topic is ECs. If I made our average Joe have a 27O MCAT and a 3.5 GPA, that would be considered the "average" applicant, but he would have little hope of getting into medical school because his academics weren't good enough.

The point of the topic is to think "For an applicant who's academics are not limiting him from getting into medical school, what would be the ideal combination of ECs, that could be reasonably be accomplished in 3 years of school and part time job?"

1. 3 summers of research and a publication is not average. A lot of applicants have no research, much less a publication.

2. The majority of applicants have clinical experience only through volunteering and shadowing and have never worked in a hospital.

3. Volunteering at two different organizations all year is above average. Most applicants have a hundred or so hours.

4. Traveling to other countries is above average. Most can't afford it or simply don't do it.

5/6. Winning anything requires you to be above average.

 

[Person0715]

Why aim for average ECs if you have more than average stats?

 

[Whatyousay]

Why aim for average ECs if you have more than average stats?

Because that sounds like a lot of work.

 

[RunningToad]

1. 3 summers of research and a publication is not average. A lot of applicants have no research, much less a publication.

2. The majority of applicants have clinical experience only through volunteering and shadowing and have never worked in a hospital.

3. Volunteering at two different organizations all year is above average. Most applicants have a hundred or so hours.

4. Traveling to other countries is above average. Most can't afford it or simply don't do it.

5/6. Winning anything requires you to be above average.

The AAMC called. They're revoking your latest VR score and giving you a 1 instead, because of your post.

The point of this topic is AVERAGE GUY, GOOD ENOUGH ACADEMICS TO GET IN, what would the best possible ECs be reasonably?

I say REASONABLY at the end of that sentence because I don't consider the following to be valid answers to my question:

1) Nobel prize
2) Olympic athelete
3) President of United States
4) etc.

Reasonable means what your friends could do if they devoted all their spare time to ECs for their application.

 

[RunningToad]

Despite the fact that the majority of the replies to this thread from other people have been garbage, due to the fact that few people understand the point of this topic because they are ******s, here is my amended list of optimal ECs:

1) Research: get 1-2 reference letters from PhDs

2) Clinical experience: get 1-2 reference letters from MDs

3) Charity work: get a reference letter from here too. The more "feel-good" the charities, the better.

4) Leadership: president of University of Calgary Dickheads Club, etc.

5) Accomplishments with hobbies: like you won a tennis tournament, because you have been playing for years.

Ideally you'll have been participating in each of these 3 things for 1-3 years. Just volunteering ONCE doesn't cut it.

 

[circulus vitios]

Despite the fact that the majority of the replies to this thread from other people have been garbage, due to the fact that few people understand the point of this topic because they are ******s, here is my amended list of optimal ECs:

1) Research: get 1-2 reference letters from PhDs

2) Clinical experience: get 1-2 reference letters from MDs

3) Charity work: get a reference letter from here too. The more "feel-good" the charities, the better.

4) Leadership: president of University of Calgary Dickheads Club, etc.

5) Accomplishments with hobbies: like you won a tennis tournament, because you have been playing for years.

Ideally you'll have been participating in each of these 3 things for 1-3 years. Just volunteering ONCE doesn't cut it.

 

[RunningToad]

Thanks "bro," now stfu if you don't have anything useful to contribute. I think some straight talk about ECs would be good on this forum, instead of the typical show-them-you-care-about-your-community bull****. I'm tired of hearing this line, it's like the profs telling you if you want to do well in their class all you have to do is be "interested" in the material, whatever that means.

PS, I read your MDapps page. You might want to remove "I'll be taking the MCAT next december," given that MCATs only run from Jan-Sept, you look like a dumb ****. Last time I checked, ADCOMS don't accept dumb ****s into their MD programs. Just a bit of advice bro.

 

[Person0715]

What exactly do you want to gain from this, OP? You've given your opinion and others have presented theirs. I don't understand the hostility.

Are you seeking some sort of validation from strangers on the internet because you equate yourself with the applicant you described or do you receive some sort of satisfaction when you force people to agree with you?

Average for you may not be average for others. It's hard to pigeonhole the "average" applicant since there are so many types of applicants.

 

[circulus vitios]

PS, I read your MDapps page. You might want to remove "I'll be taking the MCAT next december," given that MCATs only run from Jan-Sept, you look like a dumb ****. Last time I checked, ADCOMS don't accept dumb ****s into their MD programs. Just a bit of advice bro.

I didn't know that so it looks like I'll have to take it in January. Thanks for the information and I can't stop laughing at your seething rage.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

REALISTICALLY speaking:
[*]A hobby done from at least middle school - seriously, anyone can think of this. Karate, guitar, what have you. Don't have to win awards but it's nice.

This made me giggle. I didn't list any hobbies. If AMCAS made me have to list one from middle school to college, it would be watch TV. hahaha.

RoadingToad:
You need 3 LORS: 2 science professors and 1 non-science professor.

A LOR from a PI, doctor, and volunteer supervisor is nice but not needed. You are overthinking this - just enjoy college and do the above.

EDIT: Personally, I think one of the better ECs is working 5-10 hours during the majority of your academic college career. No matter what type of job. Shows responsibility, leadership and/or team-player cooperation, and good time management skills.

 

[RunningToad]

Are you seeking some sort of validation from strangers on the internet because you equate yourself with the applicant you described or do you receive some sort of satisfaction when you force people to agree with you?

[YOUTUBE]Zo7rIVmDOx4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[circulus vitios]

[YOUTUBE]Zo7rIVmDOx4[/YOUTUBE]

I like Tourettes Guy so I'll be nice. From what I can gather the most common activities are clinical volunteering, shadowing, a couple clubs, a part-time job, a couple hobbies, and maybe trying your hand at research. There are extremes for each. 500 hours of volunteering and shadowing vs 50. President and founder of 6 clubs vs no clubs. Part time EMT vs part time pizza boy. Ironman triathalete vs guitar player. A dozen publications vs no research. I would think most admissions committees look at applications and applicants to see people/an interest in medicine/academic aptitude, and not a checklist of cookie cutter activities.

 

[senorsquishie]

What exactly do you want to gain from this, OP? You've given your opinion and others have presented theirs. I don't understand the hostility.

Are you seeking some sort of validation from strangers on the internet because you equate yourself with the applicant you described or do you receive some sort of satisfaction when you force people to agree with you?

Average for you may not be average for others. It's hard to pigeonhole the "average" applicant since there are so many types of applicants.

+1 Well put! 😀

 

[music2doc]

I don't really think there is an "optimal" set of ECs because everyone is different. That said, here is a summary of my app, which I'd say is "reasonable" and covers the main areas quite thoroughly (IMO):

GPA: 3.85
MCAT: TBD (AAMC Avg: 37)

ECs:
Non-Clinical Employment -- 3 years, 30 hrs/wk
Clinical Employment -- 2 yrs, 24-40 hrs/wk
Research (1 poster and 1 oral presentation, 4 projects, 2 medically-related projects, leadership position) -- 5 yrs, 10 hrs/wk
Non-Clinical Volunteering -- 6 yrs, 6-10 hrs/wk
Clinical Volunteering (leadership position) -- 1.5 yrs, 6 hrs/wk
Shadowing -- ~50 hrs
Scribing -- ~100 hrs
TA/Lab Instructor/Tutor -- 2 yrs, 10 hrs/wk
International Work -- 12 wks in various countries, ongoing work -- closely related to a major area of interest
Other Hobbies & Artistic Endeavors -- 7 yrs, 2-5 hrs/wk -- portfolio available
Pre-Health/Pre-Medical Leadership (oversaw rebuilding of university program & dept) -- 2 yrs, 2-6 hrs/wk

Languages: English (native), Spanish (non-native/advanced fluency)

IMO, the important point, though, is why this is an optimal list for me:

Each supports my interests and works together to show who I am. They present a coherent picture of who I am and why I am pursuing medicine. Each element contributes to a whole. There is no evident "checklist" that was checked off (because, quite simply, I wasn't checking off anybody's "to do" list).

For you, the "optimal list" will be different -- guaranteed -- as it should be. The essential point is that you must create a coherent and accurate image of who you are. Your ECs need to support what the interviewer will see later. If they do not, then no matter how great of applicants both your portrayed image and the real you are, you don't stand a chance! This is why the checklist approach to admissions simply does not work.

 

[senorsquishie]

I don't really think there is an "optimal" set of ECs because everyone is different. That said, here is a summary of my app, which I'd say is "reasonable" and covers the main areas quite thoroughly (IMO):

GPA: 3.85
MCAT: TBD (AAMC Avg: 37)

ECs:
Non-Clinical Employment -- 3 years, 30 hrs/wk
Clinical Employment -- 2 yrs, 24-40 hrs/wk
Research (1 poster and 1 oral presentation, 4 projects, 2 medically-related projects, leadership position) -- 5 yrs, 10 hrs/wk
Non-Clinical Volunteering -- 6 yrs, 6-10 hrs/wk
Clinical Volunteering (leadership position) -- 1.5 yrs, 6 hrs/wk
Shadowing -- ~50 hrs
Scribing -- ~100 hrs
TA/Lab Instructor/Tutor -- 2 yrs, 10 hrs/wk
International Work -- 12 wks in various countries, ongoing work
Other Hobbies & Artistic Endeavors -- 7 yrs, 2-5 hrs/wk
Pre-Health Leadership (oversaw rebuilding of program) -- 2 yrs, 2-6 hrs/wk

IMO, the important point, though, is why this is an optimal list for me:

Each supports my interests and works together to show who I am. They present a coherent picture of who I am and why I am pursuing medicine. Each element contributes to a whole. There is no evident "checklist" that was checked off (because, quite simply, I wasn't checking off anybody's "to do" list).

For you, the "optimal list" will be different -- guaranteed -- as it should be.

If I may, Do you sleep????

 

[music2doc]

If I may, Do you sleep????

Yep, quite soundly for 6-8 hrs/night.

I am certainly busy, but with good time management I can do everything and still have free time for friends and such.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

Yep, quite soundly for 6-8 hrs/night.

I am certainly busy, but with good time management I can do everything and still have free time for friends and such.

You have to be a non-trad?!?!

And if not, my god woman, get 9 hours of sleep every night for the next two years to make up for all this business.

 

[Whatyousay]

I don't really think there is an "optimal" set of ECs because everyone is different. That said, here is a summary of my app, which I'd say is "reasonable" and covers the main areas quite thoroughly (IMO):

GPA: 3.85
MCAT: TBD (AAMC Avg: 37)

ECs:
lots of stuff

Please don't apply to the same schools as me

 

[senorsquishie]

Yep, quite soundly for 6-8 hrs/night.

I am certainly busy, but with good time management I can do everything and still have free time for friends and such.

If it makes you happy, and it works for you, who am I to judge? I just know I couldn't do it!

 

[senorsquishie]

Please don't apply to the same schools as me

HAHA ...Can I second that????

 

[music2doc]

HAHA ...Can I second that????

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to sound intimidating. I tend to not say "no" -- especially when I am interested in something -- so I've accepted a lot of responsibilities. I've also been fortunate enough to have had great opportunities that are also a lot of fun. I think the key is quality, not quantity. Perhaps I should have left out the estimate of number of hrs spent on each activity.

 

[senorsquishie]

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to sound intimidating. I tend to not say "no" -- especially when I am interested in something -- so I've accepted a lot of responsibilities. I've also been fortunate enough to have had great opportunities that are also a lot of fun. I think the key is quality, not quantity. Perhaps I should have left out the estimate of number of hrs spent on each activity.

Don't worry about it, be proud of you accomplishments 😀

 

[CodeBlu]

A lot of people are not impressed by overseas and abroad trips to do medical missions for one or two weeks.

Demonstrating continued commitment to your community is far more valuable I believe.

 

[RunningToad]

I love how this topic went from being productive (first post only), to "hurr hurr hurr I dun get it!! u dumb noob!!", to a masturbathon about the ECs of some nontrad which are really not that impressive considering the guy is about 30 (whos GPA probably also includes his 6 years of graduate school).

 

[circulus vitios]

I love how this topic went from being productive (first post only), to "hurr hurr hurr I dun get it!! u dumb noob!!", to a masturbathon about the ECs of some nontrad which are really not that impressive considering the guy is about 30 (whos GPA probably also includes his 6 years of graduate school).

I tried being nice but you're a douchebag.

Guys, which ECs should an average applicant do? Here are the ECs I have. *Over the top list*

Oh wait they aren't ECs I have, they're ECs I plan to do.

 

[NickNaylor]

I love how this topic went from being productive (first post only), to "hurr hurr hurr I dun get it!! u dumb noob!!", to a masturbathon about the ECs of some nontrad which are really not that impressive considering the guy is about 30 (whos GPA probably also includes his 6 years of graduate school).

That's what tends to happen when you start stupid threads.

 

[paul411]

The AAMC called. They're revoking your latest VR score and giving you a 1 instead, because of your post.

The point of this topic is AVERAGE GUY, GOOD ENOUGH ACADEMICS TO GET IN, what would the best possible ECs be reasonably?

I say REASONABLY at the end of that sentence because I don't consider the following to be valid answers to my question:

1) Nobel prize
2) Olympic athelete
3) President of United States
4) etc.

Reasonable means what your friends could do if they devoted all their spare time to ECs for their application.

You need to chill the f out.

 

[senorsquishie]

That's what tends to happen when you start stupid threads.

Ohhhhh SNAP!!!

and Btw, +1 million

 

[ReptarBar]

runningtoad, you are ignoring all the pieces of advice in this thread. IMO, you must fulfill:

research, clin volunteering (clin. job optional but great), non-clin volunteering (community work/helping needy always the best), leadership, hobbies, some awards, some tutoring, some shadowing (50-100 hours across 3+ specialties in both hospital and PCP) and some non-clin job experience to show you are a normal person.

you should always get research LORs, but MD or volunteering LORs are useful IF they know you super well, otherwise forget it. i personally wouldnt even ask for a volunteering LOR because i doubt those supervisors who are only HS graduates can even write good ones.

 

[music2doc]

I love how this topic went from being productive (first post only), to "hurr hurr hurr I dun get it!! u dumb noob!!", to a masturbathon about the ECs of some nontrad which are really not that impressive considering the guy is about 30 (whos GPA probably also includes his 6 years of graduate school).

I sense some hostility here but I'll take your you must be 30 to have done all that comment as a compliment. I'm right about the average applicant age.... hardly nontraditional.

Regardless the point was to show what a good strong set of ECs might look like. I've had an admissions officer use my app as an example to students of "the competition" so I know it's what at least one top school wants.

 

[RNwantDO]

You do not even understand your own question (it least the way you wrote it), and your capping on others? You asked what the best EC's an average applicant could be expected to have. In a strictly mathematical sense best=/average. However, realistically you could interpret this statement as asking what is the best EC's of a person within 1 std deviation of the mean (68th percentile). This would include some volunteering, hobbies, shadowing, leadership, and research. This hypothetical person, at most, would excel in 1 possibly 2 areas of their EC's.

You listed a GPA, MCAT, and EC's well over 1 standard deviation above the mean. That is why people are mocking you. Once you exceed 1 standard deviation, you are above average and therefore your question no longer applies. Personally, I would recommend taking a statistics class, instead of focusing on EC's.

 

[RunningToad]

I sense some hostility here but I'll take your you must be 30 to have done all that comment as a compliment. I'm right about the average applicant age.... hardly nontraditional.

Regardless the point was to show what a good strong set of ECs might look like. I've had an admissions officer use my app as an example to students of "the competition" so I know it's what at least one top school wants.

When you add that all up, you've done around 10000 hours of ECs in total.

Spread that across 5 years of undegrad and before it, and that divides to about 38 hours a week, every single week of the year. And on top of that you had time to get a 3.8 GPA and study MCAT.

Something tells me you are either greatly exaggerating or are a non-trad.