Best state to match into for non-US IMG

[DocDrex1]

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Hey Guys,

I've been doing some research on which state is the best for IMGs to match into. I know this largely depends on the person. However, I've heard that some states are a pain...such as Florida and California for IMGs. Some states tend to have some extra headache and I'd like to avoid that early on. I've noticed that many IMGs match into New York. I'm sure this is because the students are orginally from that area. Am I missing something?

I've looked at the FSMB site to see how many years of post-grad training is required before moonlighting for IMGs. What other things am I missing in my analysis? Thanks for the help guys!

Drex

 

[MD3:16]

new york

 

[McGillGrad]

Considering that NY and Cali have the most spots, and tend to accept non-US citizens more readily, those will probably be good places (unless you went to a school that Cali doesn't recognize or if you forgot to follow the Cali guidelines for clinical rotations).

Oh and the boonies in most states will always welcome warm bodies.

 

[Blade28]

Just out of curiosity, why are you worrying about this now?

 

[DocDrex1]

I'm just curious, that's all. If I pick the right state, then I may be able to moonlight more quickly and hence make more money. I'm going to be in quite a lot of debt so I wanted to plan ahead a bit.

 

[McGillGrad]

You should have done your research!

No moonlighting for non-US grads!!!

 

[Blade28]

I'm just curious, that's all. If I pick the right state, then I may be able to moonlight more quickly and hence make more money. I'm going to be in quite a lot of debt so I wanted to plan ahead a bit.

But you're currently a UK and Canadian citizen thinking of going abroad for medical school. If that's the case, I certainly wouldn't be worrying about which state to potentially apply to for residency - presumably you'll be applying VERY broadly, no?

At any rate, it's still a little early for this, IMHO...at least four years too early. It's a little like being in high school but worrying about which med school to apply to.

 

[superoxide]

You should have done your research!

No moonlighting for non-US grads!!!

I don't think this is true. Can you not moonlight once you are licensed? IMGs, depending on the state, might need more PG training compared to a US grad before they are eligible to get licensed. For example: in California, a US grad becomes eligible for licensure after 1 yr of residency, while an IMG must complete 2 years of residency to become eligible. (http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html)

If you are in the U.S on a visa (H1 or J1), then I don't think you can moonlight, but if you are a US permanent resident/citizen you can.

Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

 

[McGillGrad]

You stated the reason in your post.

You cannot moonlight as a non-US IMG. The visas will not allow you....even if you get a license.

I don't think this is true. Can you not moonlight once you are licensed? IMGs, depending on the state, might need more PG training compared to a US grad before they are eligible to get licensed. For example: in California, a US grad becomes eligible for licensure after 1 yr of residency, while an IMG must complete 2 years of residency to become eligible. (http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html)

If you are in the U.S on a visa (H1 or J1), then I don't think you can moonlight, but if you are a US permanent resident/citizen you can.

Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

 

[superoxide]

You stated the reason in your post.

You cannot moonlight as a non-US IMG. The visas will not allow you....even if you get a license.

Okay. I just noticed that the OP is a Canadian citizen, so he will need a visa to work in the US and therefore not eligible to moonlight.

I replied to your post because you wrote "No moonlighting for non-US grads". I thought that by "non-US grads" you meant IMGs. A US citizen/PR who graduates from a foreign school would still be eligible to moonlight.

 

[Squiggy]

If a USIMG does 2-3 consecutive years of preliminary surgery, would they quality for licensure?

 

[McGillGrad]

If a USIMG does 2-3 consecutive years of preliminary surgery, would they quality for licensure?

[robot voice] That does not compute [/robot voice]

Are you saying that you kept scrambling into prelim surgery year-after-year?

 

[Squiggy]

If I did, would it lead to licensure? I'm pretty sure you can't get boarded though right?

 

[BlondeDocteur]

You don't have to scramble in. Prelim surgery is a dead end for many people, especially IMGs, and if they fail to find a categorical surgery spot (or any other spot) they can do up to three prelim years in a row. Some places have PGY-2 and PGY-3 level duties for them, others basically give you intern year after intern year. Most people in that black hole move institutions each year though.

 

[dragonfly99]

You don't have to scramble in. Prelim surgery is a dead end for many people, especially IMGs, and if they fail to find a categorical surgery spot (or any other spot) they can do up to three prelim years in a row. Some places have PGY-2 and PGY-3 level duties for them, others basically give you intern year after intern year. Most people in that black hole move institutions each year though.

I know someone who did PGY1 and then PGY 2 prelim surgery years, and worked hard and kept getting interviews at categorical general surg programs, even a couple of urology ones, but then ultimately couldn't get one. He then went and did a research + clinical "fellowship" for a year at an ivy league hospital, and then finally switched and got an anesthesiology spot. There are definitely hospitals that take advantage of IMG or FMG's in this way. I heard it's common in the northeast...let the applicant/buyer beware. Personally I think if you can't find a categorical surgery spot after 1 prelim surgical year, +/- a research year, it's time to jump ship for another specialty for sure.

squiggy...you cannot become board certified unless/until you finish a residency. This is because the specialty boards who give the tests require that. For example, one isn't eligible to sit for the internal medicine board test until finishing residency.

 

[Winged Scapula]

If I did, would it lead to licensure? I'm pretty sure you can't get boarded though right?

Licensure is not dependent on whether or not you've done Prelim or Categorical training. It is simply based on passing all USMLE Steps (1-3) and doing the requisite number of years of GME training.

You cannot, as you correctly surmised, be Board Eligible or Board Certified by doing multiple preliminary years. You must complete a residency to be BC. The American Board of Surgery no longer allows Board Certification to anyone who has trained in 3 or more separate programs and/or who has done 3 or more Prelim years. You must become a categorical resident before PGY-4.

It IS a problem that programs use residents in such a way without consideration that they may be ruining the resident's chances of being BE/BC.

 

[Squiggy]

Hmmm... so is there anything a licensed but not boarded doctor can do? Prison medicine, VA, medical officer in the military perhaps?

And thanks for the responses by the way.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hmmm... so is there anything a licensed but not boarded doctor can do? Prison medicine, VA, medical officer in the military perhaps?

And thanks for the responses by the way.

You aren't required to be Board Certified to practice medicine. We may find that in the future insurance companies and employers will require it, but we haven't reached that point...yet.

But what I suspect you are asking is:

"can I work with a license but without completing residency?"

If this is the case, please do a search because THAT question has been asked very frequently here. The answer is that MOST places require completion of a residency (or being Board ELIGIBLE, if not certified). There are some places that will let you work as long as you are licensed.

And more importantly, if you are asking if you could be a surgeon by doing 3 Preliminary Surgery years, the answer is almost assuredly no. No hospital will give you surgical privileges without completing a residency, licensed or not.

 

[Squiggy]

So one can practice medicine w/out board cert. ... that's awesome! I just listed prelim surgery as that seems to be a meatgrinder that I could get into if all else fails and try to gun through for licensure.

Thank you for the reply 🙂

 

[rox]

For those who did their residency abroad and matched into US fellowships, can they practice once done with their fellowships?

I'm sure Radiologists can do that under certain circumstances but I'm asking about all specialities in general.

 

[rox]

I don't think this is true. Can you not moonlight once you are licensed? IMGs, depending on the state, might need more PG training compared to a US grad before they are eligible to get licensed. For example: in California, a US grad becomes eligible for licensure after 1 yr of residency, while an IMG must complete 2 years of residency to become eligible. (http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html)

If you are in the U.S on a visa (H1 or J1), then I don't think you can moonlight, but if you are a US permanent resident/citizen you can.

Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

So I assume there's no benefit for IMG's on visa to obtain their license early on since they can't moonlight anyway, right?

 

[lapooh]

So I assume there's no benefit for IMG's on visa to obtain their license early on since they can't moonlight anyway, right?

I believe you can moonlight if you are doing your residency on an H-1 visa, not on a J-1. Even on H-1, it is sort of complex, but within the hospital where you are doing our residency, it should not be a problem.
I believe I read somewhere that you need a separate H-1 visa fo each institution you are moonlighting at.

 

[rox]

I believe you can moonlight if you are doing your residency on an H-1 visa, not on a J-1. Even on H-1, it is sort of complex, but within the hospital where you are doing our residency, it should not be a problem.
I believe I read somewhere that you need a separate H-1 visa fo each institution you are moonlighting at.

Yeah, it seems one can moonlight on H-1 visa. I have no details though.

 

[McGillGrad]

Yeah, it seems one can moonlight on H-1 visa. I have no details though.

Moonlighting becomes moot once you are on a H1B visa. You are almost American by then, so no need to worry about mounting debt since people will throw money at doctors.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

For those who did their residency abroad and matched into US fellowships, can they practice once done with their fellowships?

I'm sure Radiologists can do that under certain circumstances but I'm asking about all specialities in general.

Often no, as you usually aren't board eligible without a residency. Theoretically you could get a license with 3 years of training, and then set up shop without boards -- but realistically this is very unlikely, as 1) the Board of Medicine might look at your fellowship-only training and reject your license app, and 2) very few if any medmal insurers will take you without being board eligible, and 3) very few hospitals will credential you without a US residency.

 

[gutonc]

For those who did their residency abroad and matched into US fellowships, can they practice once done with their fellowships?

I'm sure Radiologists can do that under certain circumstances but I'm asking about all specialities in general.

Some states (the one I live in for instance) offer a "visiting professor" license which is for foreign physicians who do not have US training or are not board eligible. It's essentially the same as a resident's limited license and only allows you to practice within the institution that sponsors it. It is intended for foreign scholars moving to the US to do research, not young folks trying to practice in the US w/o completing the appropriate/required training.

 

[dragonfly99]

squiggy,
Even with a year of surgery prelim behind you, you won't be able to get a license in most states. Most of them require 2 years of GME if you are an IMG/FMG, I think.