Big Time LIARS---What Some will do for med school

[git r done]

---

Members do not see this ad.

So I have to first throw out the disclamer that I really don't care what other people do and I am only really concerned with being truthful to myself,

BUT:

IT REALLY PISSES ME OFF WHEN KIDS LIE ON THEIR APPLICATIONS
Its like all the hard work I (and I am sure lots of honest kids too) did gets nullified by these a--h---- who just lie anyway. I'm sure there are tons and tons of examples out there but this is from two former students that I knew:

1) He is a SOROS fellow (most prestigios award out there) and goes to our med school--see Harvard Medical School. He put on his application that he was first author on a submitted paper to "NATURE"....this was complete BS (I am currently in the lab right next to the one he worked at)and as proof its over a year later and nothing shows up on pubmed. He also said he opened an online pharmacy to help out those who could not afford it--it never existed.

2) Next kid I know from Yale started a website his junior year and completely made up everything from affiliations to garbage about donating money to little children (the POS had to lie about helping out sick kids). He did manage to get 501, but other than the the site and "organization" was bogus. I am sure that no-one even checked to see if it was legit bc that was his only EC of significance and he got into Stanford Med and recently just completed a Fulbright.

NOTE:: I know we all lie about at least something in out applications, but as AMCAS submission draws near---->

PLEASE try to STOP lying.

Why do people at the "top" even lie in the first place, I really don't get it.

 

[JJMrK]

So I have to first throw out the disclamer that I really don't care what other people do and I am only really concerned with being truthful to myself,

BUT:

IT REALLY PISSES ME OFF WHEN KIDS LIE ON THEIR APPLICATIONS
Its like all the hard work I (and I am sure lots of honest kids too) did gets nullified by these a--h---- who just lie anyway. I'm sure there are tons and tons of examples out there but this is from two former students that I knew:

1) He is a SOROS fellow (most prestigios award out there) and goes to our med school--see Harvard Medical School. He put on his application that he was first author on a submitted paper to "NATURE"....this was complete BS (I am currently in the lab right next to the one he worked at)and as proof its over a year later and nothing shows up on pubmed. He also said he opened an online pharmacy to help out those who could not afford it--it never existed.

2) Next kid I know from Yale started a website his junior year and completely made up everything from affiliations to garbage about donating money to little children (the POS had to lie about helping out sick kids). He did manage to get 501, but other than the the site and "organization" was bogus. I am sure that no-one even checked to see if it was legit bc that was his only EC of significance and he got into Stanford Med and recently just completed a Fulbright.

NOTE:: I know we all lie about at least something in out applications, but as AMCAS submission draws near---->

PLEASE try to STOP lying.

Why do people at the "top" even lie in the first place, I really don't get it.

I'd suggest following your own advice. Worrying about what other people do is only going to drive you crazy. Just do the best you can.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Why do people at the "top" even lie in the first place, I really don't get it.

Because they can. If they can get away with it then its free game. If you abuse a rule or cheat the game and manage to get away with it, then they win. The same way that you would have won by trying hard.
Face it, no one plays by the rules. If you believe that you've also always played by the rules then your diluting yourself in a rosy-tinted world. Everyone cheats, everyone lies its the world we gotta live in.

 

[JJMrK]

Because they can. If they can get away with it then its free game. If you abuse a rule or cheat the game and manage to get away with it, then they win. The same way that you would have won by trying hard.
Face it, no one plays by the rules. If you believe that you've also always played by the rules then your diluting yourself in a rosy-tinted world. Everyone cheats, everyone lies its the world we gotta live in.

 

[elektroshok]

god there are a lot of good stories on SDN lately.

Who gives a ****.

Maybe your app sucks and you should work on it instead of complaining about others who got in.

 

[flip26]

So I have to first throw out the disclamer that I really don't care what other people do and I am only really concerned with being truthful to myself,

BUT:

IT REALLY PISSES ME OFF WHEN KIDS LIE ON THEIR APPLICATIONS
Its like all the hard work I (and I am sure lots of honest kids too) did gets nullified by these a--h---- who just lie anyway. I'm sure there are tons and tons of examples out there but this is from two former students that I knew:

1) He is a SOROS fellow (most prestigios award out there) and goes to our med school--see Harvard Medical School. He put on his application that he was first author on a submitted paper to "NATURE"....this was complete BS (I am currently in the lab right next to the one he worked at)and as proof its over a year later and nothing shows up on pubmed. He also said he opened an online pharmacy to help out those who could not afford it--it never existed.

2) Next kid I know from Yale started a website his junior year and completely made up everything from affiliations to garbage about donating money to little children (the POS had to lie about helping out sick kids). He did manage to get 501, but other than the the site and "organization" was bogus. I am sure that no-one even checked to see if it was legit bc that was his only EC of significance and he got into Stanford Med and recently just completed a Fulbright.

NOTE:: I know we all lie about at least something in out applications, but as AMCAS submission draws near---->

PLEASE try to STOP lying.

Why do people at the "top" even lie in the first place, I really don't get it.

Speak for yourself, and follow your own advice.

 

[Maneuver]

NOTE:: I know we all lie about at least something in out applications, but as AMCAS submission draws near---->

Speak for yourself.

I'm not lying about ANYTHING on my AMCAS. I have no reason/need to. Frankly, I hate cheaters.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Lol
I'm poking fun at this kid.

 

[softmed]

Wow, I can safely say I didn't lie about a single thing on my application. Except I said I had 200 hours of volunteer work at one place when it turned out I only had 188 hours. That wasn't on purpose though, as I was estimating when I did it (I even put "estimated" in parentheses).

One of my biggest downfalls is that I'm a brutally honest person. I tend to tell the complete and whole truth no matter what and sometimes co-workers have to tell me to leave things out (like I used too much reagent) because I will say it (even though it's an unnecessary detail and will just make my boss annoyed).

I guess this might make me a horrible doctor one day.

I would report those people for lying on their applications. They should be dismissed from class. These aren't just tiny lies or exaggerations (or mistakes), they are a sign of a pathological problem. Don't just do it because it's unfair they got in, do it because a patient one day may die because of their dishonesty. People who lie in such ways do it again and never stop (they just get better at it). And I'm certain that if the school looks closer at what these people have done in recent years, they'll find more academic dishonesty and grounds for dismissal even if they can't retroactively take back an acceptance.

 

[skiddoc]

Wow, I can safely say I didn't lie about a single thing on my application. Except I said I had 200 hours of volunteer work at one place when it turned out I only had 188 hours. That wasn't on purpose though, as I was estimating when I did it (I even put "estimated" in parentheses).

One of my biggest downfalls is that I'm a brutally honest person. I tend to tell the complete and whole truth no matter what and sometimes co-workers have to tell me to leave things out (like I used too much reagent) because I will say it (even though it's an unnecessary detail and will just make my boss annoyed).

I guess this might make me a horrible doctor one day.

I would report those people for lying on their applications. They should be dismissed from class. These aren't just tiny lies or exaggerations (or mistakes), they are a sign of a pathological problem. Don't just do it because it's unfair they got in, do it because a patient one day may die because of their dishonesty. People who lie in such ways do it again and never stop (they just get better at it). And I'm certain that if the school looks closer at what these people have done in recent years, they'll find more academic dishonesty and grounds for dismissal even if they can't retroactively take back an acceptance.

Agreed. The people on here who are telling OP to mind his/her own business are probably the ones who have lied/are lying on their apps.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

speak for yourself.

I'm not lying about anything on my amcas. I have no reason/need to. Frankly, i hate cheaters.

+1

 

[kami333]

1) He is a SOROS fellow (most prestigios award out there) and goes to our med school--see Harvard Medical School. He put on his application that he was first author on a submitted paper to "NATURE"....this was complete BS (I am currently in the lab right next to the one he worked at)and as proof its over a year later and nothing shows up on pubmed.

To be fair he said submitted, not accepted or published. I have a paper that was in "submission" for 3years.

 

[softmed]

To be fair he said submitted, not accepted or published. I have a paper that was in "submission" for 3years.

That is true. I didn't notice that detail. But the pharmacy lie is a very huge lie and unforgivable. Same thing with the making up affiliations and donations. If there's a way a medical school can check up on the latter stuff I might tip them off if I were you.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Seriously OP, if you see that kind of stuff bring it to the attention of the school. They will investigate, and if it is a lie they will take disciplinary action. The one catch is you have to be willing to stick your own neck out. I'd bet good money that you are mistaken and that there were no lies involved in these things. Implied exaggerations perhaps. Maybe I say I have an organization that has donated to kids. Let's then assume that I indeed do have such an organization and it has donated to kids. Dig deeper and we have donated a total of 100 dollars to kids. So, yeah, it sounded more impressive than it turned out to be but it was not a lie unless I had said that we donated 1000s to kids.

 

[Enoko]

I'd bet good money that you are mistaken and that there were no lies involved in these things.

You are in for a hard wake up call one day

My roommate applied the same year as me. He never did any volunteering of any kind. When I submitted he asked how much I did. I told him the truth, I did around 350 hours over the past three summers. He said "wow that's a lot. I should probably do some myself... do you have the contact info so I can get involved?".
I gave him the info and even put in a good word for him with the local people I volunteered with. But alas, he never even once contacted them...

A few months later I see a copy of his AMCAS in his printer. He put down 380 hours of volunteering. He needed my contact info so he could say who he "volunteered" for.
*sigh*

 

[skiddoc]

You are in for a hard wake up call one day

My roommate applied the same year as me. He never did any volunteering of any kind. When I submitted he asked how much I did. I told him the truth, I did around 350 hours over the past three summers. He said "wow that's a lot. I should probably do some myself... do you have the contact info so I can get involved?".
I gave him the info and even put in a good word for him with the local people I volunteered with. But alas, he never even once contacted them...

A few months later I see a copy of his AMCAS in his printer. He put down 380 hours of volunteering. He needed my contact info so he could say who he "volunteered" for.
*sigh*

Well, did he matriculate? Out with it, man!...or woman!

 

[Stixman28]

I didn't lie about only having done 4 hours of community service. I still got in. 350, 360, the number isn't what's important.

I do want the op to try and bust these folks now, and see what exactly the real story was.

Also, the kid may have submitted his paper to nature...it might have been rejected, just as most papers which are submitted to nature are.

 

[JustAGuy]

Most don't get to the top by playing fair. Get used to it.

 

[Cleavername]

So I have to first throw out the disclamer that I really don't care what other people do and I am only really concerned with being truthful to myself,

BUT:

IT REALLY PISSES ME OFF WHEN KIDS LIE ON THEIR APPLICATIONS
Its like all the hard work I (and I am sure lots of honest kids too) did gets nullified by these a--h---- who just lie anyway. I'm sure there are tons and tons of examples out there but this is from two former students that I knew:

1) He is a SOROS fellow (most prestigios award out there) and goes to our med school--see Harvard Medical School. He put on his application that he was first author on a submitted paper to "NATURE"....this was complete BS (I am currently in the lab right next to the one he worked at)and as proof its over a year later and nothing shows up on pubmed. He also said he opened an online pharmacy to help out those who could not afford it--it never existed.

2) Next kid I know from Yale started a website his junior year and completely made up everything from affiliations to garbage about donating money to little children (the POS had to lie about helping out sick kids). He did manage to get 501, but other than the the site and "organization" was bogus. I am sure that no-one even checked to see if it was legit bc that was his only EC of significance and he got into Stanford Med and recently just completed a Fulbright.

NOTE:: I know we all lie about at least something in out applications, but as AMCAS submission draws near---->

PLEASE try to STOP lying.

Why do people at the "top" even lie in the first place, I really don't get it.

keep in mine, you can too. not that u should, just saying🙂.

this world is about getting what you want. if your conscience cannot even bare the thought of u being dishonest outweights ur desire to be a physician, dont lie or cheat. however, if its the opposite, just keep in the back of ur mind, you can too.

 

[Maneuver]

You are in for a hard wake up call one day

My roommate applied the same year as me. He never did any volunteering of any kind. When I submitted he asked how much I did. I told him the truth, I did around 350 hours over the past three summers. He said "wow that's a lot. I should probably do some myself... do you have the contact info so I can get involved?".
I gave him the info and even put in a good word for him with the local people I volunteered with. But alas, he never even once contacted them...

A few months later I see a copy of his AMCAS in his printer. He put down 380 hours of volunteering. He needed my contact info so he could say who he "volunteered" for.
*sigh*

Thank God adcoms weight MCAT heavily. Much harder to cheat I would imagine.

Now that I realize how prevalent cheating is [even outside my institution], I think I will no longer hesitate to "tattle" on cheaters. They deserve it.

Hope I don't meet any of you cheaters in med school

 

[Enoko]

Most don't get to the top by playing fair. Get used to it.

This is true. Want to get into Harvard law? Well you better know a politician or have a rich father.

Its also very true in undergrad.
-Is it fair that some girls go and complain and cry to argue points back with a professor on a test? Is that fair? Well sure its fair you say, anyone can do that, what's stopping them? Totally fair game.
-What about the person that brings a cheat sheet to the test? Anyone can do that right? Isn't that fair game as well?
-What about a guy (or girl) or sleeps with his TA and get a few extra points on his test?
-What about the guy who was sick with leukemia and takes his final 2 weeks after everyone else, and he had an extra 2 weeks to study while he was in the hospital. That's fair right?
-What about the person who spends $3000 on some crazy professional biochem software that helps you study the subject better? Is that fair?
-What about the guy who buys Adderol or some other mind boosting drug and uses it to study for the final? That's fair right? Anyone with money can do


"Most don't get to the top by playing fair. Get used to it"
Perhaps that is the truth these days.

Well, did he matriculate? Out with it, man!...or woman!

He did not, but neither did I so it wasn't a big consolation. : /

 

[christina30]

"-What about the guy who was sick with leukemia and takes his final 2 weeks after everyone else, and he had an extra 2 weeks to study while he was in the hospital. That's fair right?"

That is a piss poor example of cheating.The idea is that someone with a serious enough illness doesn't have the energy/stamina/whatever to spend the same number of hours studying. Saying that someone in the hospital with leukemia has an advantage is pretty *****ic of you, sorry.

 

[Cleavername]

This is true. Want to get into Harvard law? Well you better know a politician or have a rich father.

Its also very true in undergrad.
-Is it fair that some girls go and complain and cry to argue points back with a professor on a test? Is that fair? Well sure its fair you say, anyone can do that, what's stopping them? Totally fair game.
-What about the person that brings a cheat sheet to the test? Anyone can do that right? Isn't that fair game as well?
-What about a guy (or girl) or sleeps with his TA and get a few extra points on his test?
-What about the guy who was sick with leukemia and takes his final 2 weeks after everyone else, and he had an extra 2 weeks to study while he was in the hospital. That's fair right?
-What about the person who spends $3000 on some crazy professional biochem software that helps you study the subject better? Is that fair?
-What about the guy who buys Adderol or some other mind boosting drug and uses it to study for the final? That's fair right? Anyone with money can do


"Most don't get to the top by playing fair. Get used to it"
Perhaps that is the truth these days.



He did not, but neither did I so it wasn't a big consolation. : /

i would totally do that just for the sake of doing that lol. thats so hot lol.

 

[schrizto]

This is true. Want to get into Harvard law? Well you better know a politician or have a rich father.

Its also very true in undergrad.
-Is it fair that some girls go and complain and cry to argue points back with a professor on a test? Is that fair? Well sure its fair you say, anyone can do that, what's stopping them? Totally fair game.
-What about the person that brings a cheat sheet to the test? Anyone can do that right? Isn't that fair game as well?
-What about a guy (or girl) or sleeps with his TA and get a few extra points on his test?
-What about the guy who was sick with leukemia and takes his final 2 weeks after everyone else, and he had an extra 2 weeks to study while he was in the hospital. That's fair right?
-What about the person who spends $3000 on some crazy professional biochem software that helps you study the subject better? Is that fair?
-What about the guy who buys Adderol or some other mind boosting drug and uses it to study for the final? That's fair right? Anyone with money can do


"Most don't get to the top by playing fair. Get used to it"
Perhaps that is the truth these days.



He did not, but neither did I so it wasn't a big consolation. : /

calm down.

 

[Enoko]

"-What about the guy who was sick with leukemia and takes his final 2 weeks after everyone else, and he had an extra 2 weeks to study while he was in the hospital. That's fair right?"

That is a piss poor example of cheating.The idea is that someone with a serious enough illness doesn't have the energy/stamina/whatever to spend the same number of hours studying. Saying that someone in the hospital with leukemia has an advantage is pretty *****ic of you, sorry.

Way to totally miss the point I was making.

There are a thousand things going on in undergrad that affects grades outside of studying.
-Some are honest to goodness legit (leukemia)
-Others are blatant cheating (cheat sheet on a test)
-Many are in the gray area in between. (buying software to study with)

 

[Hifey]

I dislike tattletales but I hate cheaters even more. To me, its a character weakness that they didn't believe in themselves enough to do well or to work hard enough to achieve what they believed they "deserved".

Sadly enough though there are a lot of cheaters out there, and lying on an application is a HUGE risk. If found out, you effectively ruin your chances at being accepted at best, and at worst, not being granted a degree after tons of hard work 4 years later and very deep in debt. The risk is not worth the reward imho.

Even more than being kicked out of school, not being able to become a physician etc., everyone finds out. Your parents, grandparents, old friends, new friends etc. You're taking a risk of destroying any respect anyone has ever held for you.

 

[Cleavername]

I dislike tattletales but I hate cheaters even more. To me, its a character weakness that they didn't believe in themselves enough to do well or to work hard enough to achieve what they believed they "deserved".

Sadly enough though there are a lot of cheaters out there, and lying on an application is a HUGE risk. If found out, you effectively ruin your chances at being accepted at best, and at worst, not being granted a degree after tons of hard work 4 years later and very deep in debt. The risk is not worth the reward imho.

Even more than being kicked out of school, not being able to become a physician etc., everyone finds out. Your parents, grandparents, old friends, new friends etc. You're taking a risk of destroying any respect anyone has ever held for you.

if you were to write down your ECs on your application, lets say you inflated your actual doing, would med schools actually call to find out if you have done them?

 

[mmmcdowe]

You are in for a hard wake up call one day

Was your friend one of the people the OP is talking about? Because if not (obviously seeing as your friend isn't at HMS), I must have hit snooze. I never said that no one cheats, I said I don't believe the OP's belief that these two students cheated the system.

 

[VoiceofReason]

successful cheaters are just smarter than you

 

[sugardad]

You are in for a hard wake up call one day

My roommate applied the same year as me. He never did any volunteering of any kind. When I submitted he asked how much I did. I told him the truth, I did around 350 hours over the past three summers. He said "wow that's a lot. I should probably do some myself... do you have the contact info so I can get involved?".
I gave him the info and even put in a good word for him with the local people I volunteered with. But alas, he never even once contacted them...

A few months later I see a copy of his AMCAS in his printer. He put down 380 hours of volunteering. He needed my contact info so he could say who he "volunteered" for.
*sigh*

I'm sorry, but lets not get all bent out of shape about volunteering. I "volunteered" at a hospital. The experience involved changing sheets and making coffee. Thats it. There was absolutely no value in this whatsoever and from talking to my classmates it seems that this experience was the rule, not the exception. So since the whole experience is BS anyways does it really matter if it happened or not?

 

[mmmcdowe]

I'm sorry, but lets not get all bent out of shape about volunteering. I "volunteered" at a hospital. The experience involved changing sheets and making coffee. Thats it. There was absolutely no value in this whatsoever and from talking to my classmates it seems that this experience was the rule, not the exception. So since the whole experience is BS anyways does it really matter if it happened or not?

Well I don't necessarily agree but I do agree that the number is not what matters. It's the experience and the ability to wield memories of it in your justification of why medicine and why you will make a good medical student at XYZ medical school. By just including a number but not being able to draw upon the experience you aren't really helping yourself. Further, if you get called on it by being asked about the experience and you fumble the lie you are toast.

 

[Hifey]

if you were to write down your ECs on your application, lets say you inflated your actual doing, would med schools actually call to find out if you have done them?

No, I don't think they would check on something small. However, if you claim to be running an organization or research or whatever (ie something that seems like it would have taken up a substantial amount of time) then you're more likely to be caught. I don't care if people pad their hours SLIGHTLY, but claiming 350 when in fact its 0 is cheating.

Just think of it this way, if you worked your butt off to do something right and someone else took credit for it, wouldn't you be pissed? It devalues everything you've done. And some might say that you'd only be mad cause you didn't think of cheating too but in reality that only makes you equally bad. It doesn't make either of you better.

And I have cheated in the past (like elementary school) in a very unconventional way. I, along with several other students were caught. I discovered that my self-respect and my parent's, peers, and teacher's respect wasn't worth a few extra points on a stupid test. Nor is it worth a medical school acceptance. With med school, you're already lucky if you get in. Rejection doesn't make anyone inherently inferior.

 

[Hifey]

I'm sorry, but lets not get all bent out of shape about volunteering. I "volunteered" at a hospital. The experience involved changing sheets and making coffee. Thats it. There was absolutely no value in this whatsoever and from talking to my classmates it seems that this experience was the rule, not the exception. So since the whole experience is BS anyways does it really matter if it happened or not?

If these were your activities, then my volunteering was rather exceptional 🙂

 

[sugardad]

Well I don't necessarily agree but I do agree that the number is not what matters. It's the experience and the ability to wield memories of it in your justification of why medicine and why you will make a good medical student at XYZ medical school. By just including a number but not being able to draw upon the experience you aren't really helping yourself. Further, if you get called on it by being asked about the experience and you fumble the lie you are toast.

Any intelligent person preparing for their interviews will have a nice answer rehearsed (I know I did). It is fairly easy to do, just google "inspirational hospital experiences" ect. and you will get an idea and brush it up a bit.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Any intelligent person preparing for their interviews will have a nice answer rehearsed (I know I did). It is fairly easy to do, just google "inspirational hospital experiences" ect. and you will get an idea and brush it up a bit.

Tell me an inspirational story is one thing (honestly though I doubt most of the students who would throw fake ECs into their application have nice rehearsed answers nor are they on average the brightest bulbs in the box), being asked random questions about the event is another. All you have to do is hesitate or fumble enough to get them concerned enough to check or just drill you until your story runs out of rope.

 

[sugardad]

Tell me an inspirational story is one thing (honestly though I doubt most of the students who would throw fake ECs into their application have nice rehearsed answers nor are they on average the brightest bulbs in the box), being asked random questions about the event is another. All you have to do is hesitate or fumble enough to get them concerned enough to check or just drill you until your story runs out of rope.

I met a sprightly old man and even though his right side was debilitated from a stroke he never lost his good humor and positive outlook. Adcom: where did this happen Me: hospital rehab floor. it is not that difficult

 

[mmmcdowe]

I met a sprightly old man and even though his right side was debilitated from a stroke he never lost his good humor and positive outlook. Adcom: where did this happen Me: hospital rehab floor. it is not that difficult

What did his face look like in terms of abnormality? How disabled was he, what couldn't he do by himself? How long had he been there? How long did you know him for? How long was he there? In what way did he keep is good humor? What did he do for a living? What did the doctor say for his prognosis? How did you end up on the rehab floor, did you work in any of the others? What was the doctor's name? Which side did you say he had been debilitated, left side right? Which floor was it? How did it make you feel? How will this help you as a future medical student?

We aren't going anywhere with arguing about this any how. Let's agree to disagree. Most of the time you may get away with it, but it just take one interviewer to call you on something to ruin the whole season. I know I wrote a half dozen essays citing my interest in medical history. Only one doctor asked me about it and then told me to recite the history of medicine for the next 30 minutes.

Good thing I wasn't lying.

 

[sugardad]

What did his face look like in terms of abnormality? How disabled was he, what couldn't he do by himself? How long had he been there? How long did you know him for? How long was he there? In what way did he keep is good humor? What did he do for a living? What did the doctor say for his prognosis? How did you end up on the rehab floor, did you work in any of the others? What was the doctor's name? Which side did you say he had been debilitated, left side right? Which floor was it? How did it make you feel? How will this help you as a future medical student?


Good thing I wasn't lying.

I think this imaginary ADCOM has a touch of OCD

 

[mmmcdowe]

too many questions.

For one interview probably, but all you have to do is screw up one answer during the season to be at risk having someone care enough to check.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I think this imaginary ADCOM has a touch of OCD

I think most physicians have a touch of OCD.

 

[IH8ColdWeath3r]

Well I don't necessarily agree but I do agree that the number is not what matters. It's the experience and the ability to wield memories of it in your justification of why medicine and why you will make a good medical student at XYZ medical school. By just including a number but not being able to draw upon the experience you aren't really helping yourself. Further, if you get called on it by being asked about the experience and you fumble the lie you are toast.

Yeah^ I have to agree and say that I volunteered at two hospitals and although I did do a lot of changing of sheets, bringing blankets to patients, transporting...there is a lot more that I got out of it than that. I talked to the patients....after all the hospital is a scary place and most people like having someone to talk to. People who lie about this stuff with well rehearsed answers are snakes---and the meaningful TIME that i spent doing these things could have been used to do other stuff like research/shadow/etc. which is what the liars were probably doing to pad their apps.


And to the guy who had his roommate steal all EC information with the list of contact info...REPORT HIS ASS!!! especially if he got matriculated. Play by the rules, it makes everything more worthwhile and meaningful. There are no shortcuts in life and we all must put in the necessary work inorder to get to where we want to go

 

[oaklandguy]

Tell me an inspirational story is one thing (honestly though I doubt most of the students who would throw fake ECs into their application have nice rehearsed answers nor are they on average the brightest bulbs in the box), being asked random questions about the event is another. All you have to do is hesitate or fumble enough to get them concerned enough to check or just drill you until your story runs out of rope.

IF the OP is correct in his assessment then 2 med students at big named schools threw fake ECs into their app and probably rehearsed answers for their interview like every other person who applies. You would think they are intelligent being med students at Harvard and Stanford, but then again, anyone can get into med school nowadays especially at Harvard, so their probably not that smart or anything 🙄

Cheaters come in all shapes and sizes. Sure you have the trouble maker who is lazy and cheats. But you have some ingenious people who work together... Stealing tests from profs offices, using KGB and texting each other, etc.

Is this considered cheating: A student in one of my classes always gets older exams from the previous semester and studies those exams instead of studying the material. Most of the questions are kept the same, so the student does extremely well and by no means has studied the material. Is it cheating to use old exams?

 

[BBender716]

IF the OP is correct in his assessment then 2 med students at big named schools threw fake ECs into their app and probably rehearsed answers for their interview like every other person who applies. You would think they are intelligent being med students at Harvard and Stanford, but then again, anyone can get into med school nowadays especially at Harvard, so their probably not that smart or anything 🙄

Cheaters come in all shapes and sizes. Sure you have the trouble maker who is lazy and cheats. But you have some ingenious people who work together... Stealing tests from profs offices, using KGB and texting each other, etc.

Is this considered cheating: A student in one of my classes always gets older exams from the previous semester and studies those exams instead of studying the material. Most of the questions are kept the same, so the student does extremely well and by no means has studied the material. Is it cheating to use old exams?

If it is allowed by the professor and everyone has equal access, then it is not cheating. If either condition is violated, it provides and unfair and/or unapproved advantage and is cheating.

 

[Practitioner]

A few months later I see a copy of his AMCAS in his printer. He put down 380 hours of volunteering. He needed my contact info so he could say who he "volunteered" for.
*sigh*

Embellishing experiences is one thing. That is an entirely different thing.

 

[Rayhaan]

If you don't want to cheat, then don't. By getting hung up because of what other people do is silly. This is the real world, it isn't fantasy; people do things to get ahead. ALL human behaviour is rooted in personal self-interest, even altruistic behaviour is done so an individual can feel good about themselves. Just feel satisfied that when you succeed it will have been done on your own steam, and not through cheating.

 

[jturkel]

i may have cheated. i put that i discovered the cure for AIDS on my application.....i don't think they believed me though 🙄

 

[softmed]

Is this considered cheating: A student in one of my classes always gets older exams from the previous semester and studies those exams instead of studying the material. Most of the questions are kept the same, so the student does extremely well and by no means has studied the material. Is it cheating to use old exams?

I think this is a very, very gray area.

In my school at least half the students were involved in a sorority/fraternity/sports team/club that had filled entire filing cabinets with old exams. This is cheating and it's completely unacceptable. But it's unfortunately impossible to avoid.

Professors can rectify this situation in a variety of ways: 1. give out the old exams to everyone, 2. make new, innovative questions for new exams, 3. keep all exams (don't hand them back to students) or 4. trick people into thinking a question is exactly the same as the old one, but throw a twist into it (which might also catch a proportion of people in the act)

In fact, if it's a multiple choice test, a professor could potentially use all his tests from previous years, then for the final suddenly switch the correct answers around for maybe 3 or 4 of the questions. Those who answer all of those questions the same way as previous years instantly fail the class for cheating (it's statistically EXTREMELY unlikely that they would answer all the questions precisely like in past years unless they were cheating).

Goddamn that is such a freaking awesome idea. If I teach a class while on staff at a hospital I will so do that.

Before I got off on that tangent I was about to say there are some very naive professors who do not realize half their classes are using old exams (or perhaps they don't care so much). I remember I took a class called Animal Anatomy and my professor never gave out old exams for practice, but after one exam I talked to a girl in the class and she told me how she expected a lot of the tricky questions, then she pulled out the old exam. I was really annoyed by this. I did manage to achieve a B+ in the class, but I have little doubt that other people in the class did so well because they all had this unfair advantage. However, most professors were more aware of this kind of cheating.

Since I'm a bit sensitive to that issue, I have to say it's a gray area. It's not right, but it's also not right that a good proportion of your class is doing it so you end up with a B despite all your hard work. I guess you could take the higher moral ground and accept your B, but I can sympathize with someone who would get the old exams. And this is the kind of assumption that might lead to a bit of a slippery slope. You could use it to justify ANY kind of cheating if you assume most of your class is cheating. I think the difference is that people really are using old exams. It's not some kind of secret.

 

[Cyradis]

Is this considered cheating: A student in one of my classes always gets older exams from the previous semester and studies those exams instead of studying the material. Most of the questions are kept the same, so the student does extremely well and by no means has studied the material. Is it cheating to use old exams?

IMO that's not cheating. Having an unfair advantage is not cheating - having more money to hire a tutor gives you a huge advantage but it isn't cheating, not having to work and thus having more time to study gives you an advantage, but that isn't cheating, etc.

As far as I'm concerned, in order for it to be cheating it has to involve dishonest intent - clearly things like copying someone else, or obtaining a copy of the exam you are about to write before-hand, etc. fall under that. Past exams are simply another tool to help you study.

You mentioned the questions were kept the same: IMO this is pure laziness on the part of the professor. I'm a TA and I can say for the course I TA, the midterms and exams are different every single year and yet reflect the same course material and are roughly the same difficulty - it's very doable.

I can certainly understand the frustration that you might feel not having had copies of those past exams and seeing another student who did do better than you; it's happened to me. But, when that's happened to me it was the same reaction I have when a classmate found an online resource that helped them understand a concept much better than me or something - I wish I'd had access to that study resource, but I certainly feel no resentment or anything towards the students who did.

 

[dbeast]

I think this is a very, very gray area.

In my school at least half the students were involved in a sorority/fraternity/sports team/club that had filled entire filing cabinets with old exams. This is cheating and it's completely unacceptable. But it's unfortunately impossible to avoid.

Professors can rectify this situation in a variety of ways: 1. give out the old exams to everyone, 2. make new, innovative questions for new exams, 3. keep all exams (don't hand them back to students) or 4. trick people into thinking a question is exactly the same as the old one, but throw a twist into it (which might also catch a proportion of people in the act)

In fact, if it's a multiple choice test, a professor could potentially use all his tests from previous years, then for the final suddenly switch the correct answers around for maybe 3 or 4 of the questions. Those who answer all of those questions the same way as previous years instantly fail the class for cheating (it's statistically EXTREMELY unlikely that they would answer all the questions precisely like in past years unless they were cheating).

Goddamn that is such a freaking awesome idea. If I teach a class while on staff at a hospital I will so do that.

Before I got off on that tangent I was about to say there are some very naive professors who do not realize half their classes are using old exams (or perhaps they don't care so much). I remember I took a class called Animal Anatomy and my professor never gave out old exams for practice, but after one exam I talked to a girl in the class and she told me how she expected a lot of the tricky questions, then she pulled out the old exam. I was really annoyed by this. I did manage to achieve a B+ in the class, but I have little doubt that other people in the class did so well because they all had this unfair advantage. However, most professors were more aware of this kind of cheating.

Since I'm a bit sensitive to that issue, I have to say it's a gray area. It's not right, but it's also not right that a good proportion of your class is doing it so you end up with a B despite all your hard work. I guess you could take the higher moral ground and accept your B, but I can sympathize with someone who would get the old exams. And this is the kind of assumption that might lead to a bit of a slippery slope. You could use it to justify ANY kind of cheating if you assume most of your class is cheating. I think the difference is that people really are using old exams. It's not some kind of secret.

True story from my dad's experience at Yale (prob not applicable anymore but still funny):

This one kid was in one of those skull and bones fraternities and copied an exact paper out of one of those filing cabinets full of old tests and materials and turned it in. The professor's notes upon returning the paper: "It was an A when I wrote it 20 years ago and it's still an A".

 

[btricycle]

I think this is a very, very gray area.

In my school at least half the students were involved in a sorority/fraternity/sports team/club that had filled entire filing cabinets with old exams. This is cheating and it's completely unacceptable. But it's unfortunately impossible to avoid.

so people using AAMC exams to prepare for the MCAT are cheating? They're actual exams...you have to pay for access to them...they should just give them to everyone so its not cheating.