Biggest failure and advice needed

[bbob49]

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Hi, I'm a first time poster but long-term follower of this forum.

Anyways I have always had a desire to be a physician but I have messed up those chances big time during my undergrad where not only did I fail a bunch of core science courses but also failed in retaking them as well. It got to a point where eventually I would retake these courses to just pass in order to graduate. From then I accepted that at this point there is no way I could get into medicine.

However, I still had a passion in health and decided to pursue my Masters in Public Health. Fortunately I was able to nail my GRE and get accepted into a program. Completed my Masters within a year with a 3.8 GPA and from that point I knew I still had the potential to be successful academically, it was just my past immaturity and laziness that got me into this mess.

Like I said, I always have had and always will has the passion to pursue medicine whether it be a MD or DO and I cannot let myself accept that I cannot be one without giving myself another chance. Here is where I need some guidance:

After talking to a pre-professional health counselor I was advised that doing a post-bac at this point really won't do me any good as I already retook and failed and retook then passed those science classes during my undergrad and was advised to pursue a hard science masters or SMP. But, from following this forum, I get the consensus that post-bac is the only way to go.

I have gotten accepted into a non-research Master in Biomedical science program from a not so great school and its the only one I could get into given my circumstance, but wanted to get some advice before I commit to this financially if it is not beneficial.

I understand a lot of you will say give up, I'm not suited for this or to try the Caribbeans but I am not willing to give up. Thank you for all of your help and time I really do appreciate it!

 

[DocWinter]

What is your current GPA, what courses and how many have you failed, and same for those repeated courses: How many and which ones?

Given the little I can gather from this, you really have dug yourself into a hole if things are as dire as you make them to be.

Your MPH is nice, but certainly not going to be a deciding factor here. Your GPA and MCAT and your educational history relating to your path to medical school acceptance is most important here.

DO NOT DO THE CARRIBEAN! They prey on the hope of people like yourself, believing they can make it. Some people do, but they are not the ones with a history such as yours.

 

[jl lin]

What does passed mean? C's or B's. A's in undergrad and undergrad pre-med sciences are what they are looking for, along w/ an MCAT score that supports those A's--and then, thereafter, a good, holistic application (and all that it entails) that fits with the mission of the particular medical schools.

If you took the pre-reqs and did C work, you may or may not be able to get into some SMPs--depending upon the program. For instance, if your overall GPA is C level, along with the science, Temple's ACMS is improbable b/c of the GPAs of the applicants, their diagnostic scores, and the low number of seats, As you well may know by now, it depends and you have to research the SMPs.

I honestly don't know how it rolls for DO, if you retook and passed the pre-reqs, but didn't get your sGPA up to what those schools' demands are--based on their current supply of applicants w/ say >3.3 cGPAs and > 3.5 sGPAs compared with your past post-bacc,if you have taken the pre-reqs. Post-Bach programs usually don't want students that have taken some or most of the pre-reqs for MS. SMP is different. Maybe do your best in the grad biomed program, and then do incredibly well on the MCAT, while also beefing the daylights up in your whole application.

Otherwise, I mean, ask Goro about re-doing your C pre-reqs for A's, and then prepping well to kill MCAT. If he advises you that this will work for you for DO, then you can save yourself the money of the Biomed grad program, if you want. If he doesn't respond b/c of being busy, I would just private message him. I think he will lead you in the right direction.

Good luck.

 

[bbob49]

Thank you everyone for your kind and insightful replies.

As for my undergraduate history passing these courses I meant getting mostly C's. Here is an example situation when I was struggling with Organic Chemistry: I took it the first time and failed, second time and got a D and third time and got a C. And there are multiple courses which followed the same path which, I know, is pathetic. This is why I was advised not to go for a post-bac because it would just be doing the same thing over again when I had multiple opportunities to succeed in those courses during my undergrad. I don't know if you think a post-bac would still be a good option.

I am aware that SMP are very difficult to get into which is why I haven't been able to get into any and the only thing I got going for me is this non-research Masters in Biomedical science which includes courses such as biochemisty, gross anatomy, human physiology, neurology/nueroanatomy, advanced cell biology, advanced immunology, microbial pathogenesis and virology, principles of pathology and biostatistics. But from what I read on here I am still not sure if this is the best path although it does seem like a very redeeming thing as long as I get all A's.

 

[deleted480308]

we need the answer.....what is your current cgpa with all classes counted(MD application gpa)? then seperately, what is your cgpa with only the last of each retake counted (DO application gpa)?

don't count the masters

 

[jl lin]

I am saying, in general, as far as I understand, you wouldn't get into a formal post-bacc, b/c you have already taken the courses.
I don't know about subsequent re-takes for your pre-reqs and getting A's after Fs/Ds, and then Cs for DO programs. Most DO schools accept grade replacement, but you still have to well in those courses for replacement--maybe some Bs but mostly As I believe. That is to say, obviously, a C level in those courses will not get you into a DO program or even a PA program, I believe.

I don't know how many times you can re-take to get A's and that they will replace your other grades in order to get acceptance in a DO program. That's why I say ask Goro. In fact, there should be a whole section dedicated to
"Ask Goro and other advisers like Gonnif and Lizzy, gyngyn, etc." I have seen such threads, but a whole separated out as a separate forum. A whole
a whole "Ask The Advisors" Forum would be great.

 

[DocWinter]

I am saying, in general, as far as I understand, you wouldn't get into a formal post-bacc, b/c you have already taken the courses.
I don't know about subsequent re-takes for your pre-reqs and getting A's after Fs/Ds, and then Cs. Most DO schools accept grade replacement, but you still have to well in those courses for replacement. That is to say, obviously, a C level in those courses will not get you into a DO program or even a PA program, I believe. I don't know how many times you can re-take to get A's and that they will replace your other grades in order to get acceptance in a DO program. That's why I say ask Goro. In fact, there should be a whole section dedicated to
"Ask Goro and other advisers like Gonnif and Lizzy,et." I have seen such threads, but the are not separated out as a separate forum. A whole
"Ask The Advisors" Forum would be great.

But then where would us med students get our fun, spouting off advice from a personal and narrow sample size? 🙂

 

[bbob49]

we need the answer.....what is your current cgpa with all classes counted(MD application gpa)? then seperately, what is your cgpa with only the last of each retake counted (DO application gpa)?

don't count the masters

My cGPA for my undergrad total is a 2.86. In terms of my sGPA which I calculated myself out of curiosity it was a 2.10.

I completely understand even if I were to do a post-bac I would need to hit it out of the park I am just unsure when admissions committees look a hard look at my application they would see how I've taken these classes multiple times in the past. I figured that a Masters program would demonstrate a fresh start and a new challenge but I don't know if anyone else feels the same way.

I will definitely direct my questions to the ask the advisor's forum I apologize for posting in the wrong area. But I do appreciate and advice or opinions anyone else might have.

 

[deleted480308]

the gpa is probably too low to even get into a real SMP and with no god-like MCAT to lean on, this is likely a DO situation for you

luckily that means retakes count, so retake the worst grades until you have raised your "retake included" gpa to about 3.2-3.4ish and then take the MCAT....until you have the MCAT all this is just a guess

 

[bbob49]

the gpa is probably too low to even get into a real SMP and with no god-like MCAT to lean on, this is likely a DO situation for you

luckily that means retakes count, so retake the worst grades until you have raised your "retake included" gpa to about 3.2-3.4ish and then take the MCAT....until you have the MCAT all this is just a guess

MCAT will be a concern once I figure out the GPA situation first, but I glad to hear there is at least hope. So in your opinion it is best not to pursue my MS this coming fall?

 

[deleted480308]

MCAT will be a concern once I figure out the GPA situation first, but I glad to hear there is at least hope. So in your opinion it is best not to pursue my MS this coming fall?

it's tricky....if you don't hit it out of the park you are done

with undergrad retakes you have a little more leeway for an "oops"

but it's your call based on your finances/timeline/confidence

 

[jl lin]

the gpa is probably too low to even get into a real SMP and with no god-like MCAT to lean on, this is likely a DO situation for you

luckily that means retakes count, so retake the worst grades until you have raised your "retake included" gpa to about 3.2-3.4ish and then take the MCAT....until you have the MCAT all this is just a guess

I guess my question then is what is the number of times an Osteopathic MS would be OK with re-takes in order for one to achieve As in said courses versus saying, "Ah no."? I mean even for DO, at some point averaging would be an issue, no? Can a person re-take science pre-reqs 2, 3, or 4 times until they get A's in those courses, and still get in? Just honestly curious as to how this works.

 

[bbob49]

I guess my question then is what is the number of times an Osteopathic MS would be OK with re-takes in order for one to achieve As in said courses versus saying, "Ah no."? I mean even for DO, at some point averaging would be an issue, no? Can a person re-take science pre-reqs 2, 3, or 4 times until they get A's in those courses, and still get in? Just honestly curious as to how this works.

I have the same curiosity because the overall consensus on here tends to be retake, do great and you'll be fine. Obviously those who do it are not on the same boat as I am which is why I am wondering. It can't be as simple as retake as many times until you get an A to get back on track. If that was a case I would imagine a lot of individuals doing that. Does anyone know if there is a retake limit? Because I am assuming at some point there has to be a cut off where retaking will simply not rectify the situation.

 

[DocWinter]

I have the same curiosity because the overall consensus on here tends to be retake, do great and you'll be fine. Obviously those who do it are not on the same boat as I am which is why I am wondering. It can't be as simple as retake as many times until you get an A to get back on track. If that was a case I would imagine a lot of individuals doing that. Does anyone know if there is a retake limit? Because I am assuming at some point there has to be a cut off where retaking will simply not rectify the situation.

My understanding is that everything does indeed count. Getting an A on your 3rd retake is great; but keep in mind that admins are smart people who look for trends, not simply a single accomplishment. OP, you have a tough row to hoe given your struggles. Admissions may very well pass you over if you are not near perfect here on out. Like stated above, only you can determine the cost analysis here and decide if you have what it takes in the many ways that path will indeed take from you.

 

[bbob49]

My understanding is that everything does indeed count. Getting an A on your 3rd retake is great; but keep in mind that admins are smart people who look for trends, not simply a single accomplishment. OP, you have a tough row to hoe given your struggles. Admissions may very well pass you over if you are not near perfect here on out. Like stated above, only you can determine the cost analysis here and decide if you have what it takes in the many ways that path will indeed take from you.

I definitely understand that its going to be an uphill battle from here on out, but like I have stated before I can't live with myself if I didn't at least give myself a chance.

The best thing I have learned from here and all of your encouraging feedback isthat no matter what happens everything is in my control from how much effort I am willing to put to the grades I get that will determine my success.

If there is any more input on retake vs masters and what would be more advantageous I would truly appericate it!

 

[MrSamrtGuy]

I guess my question then is what is the number of times an Osteopathic MS would be OK with re-takes in order for one to achieve As in said courses versus saying, "Ah no."? I mean even for DO, at some point averaging would be an issue, no? Can a person re-take science pre-reqs 2, 3, or 4 times until they get A's in those courses, and still get in? Just honestly curious as to how this works.

Interesting question. I don't know that there is a formal limit on the number of times you can retake. But even if it is unlimited, they will see the old grades. So grade replacement after several retakes would save you from being autoscreened, but once a human reviews your file they'll see that you failed Chem 5 times before getting that A.

And my gut feeling is that that would be a serious red flag. I think the idea behind the DO grade replacement policy is that everyone makes mistakes, and even the smartest people, even people who would make great doctors, have a bad semester or two. I don't think the intention is to allow you to take each prereq several times until you get an A.

If you bombed a prereq multiple times, upper level courses are probably mandatory for you to have a shot. So if I bombed General Chemistry a few times before getting an A, I'd feel like taking Physical Chemistry, as hard as it may be, and Inorganic Chemistry would be necessary. If I bombed Bio multiple times I'd probably have to ace a few upper level Bio courses. And that makes sense-I'd expect someone to do better the second time around, no matter how difficult the class.

I think at most universities, C is the minimum grade in a prerequisite to move onto a more advanced course. So you could theoretically move on to upper level Chem and Bio courses with Cs.

But I would retake for two reasons: those Cs are going to bring you down GPA-wise-not taking advantage of grade replacement and shooting for an A in those is just leaving points on the table, and the second reason is, if you can't swing a good grade in the intro level courses, upper levels are going to be a waste of time. I know a lot of people might say that upper levels actually get a little easier because they focus on less subject matter, and they are not designed to be weed outs. But those are moot points if you don't have the foundation.

If I got Bs or higher on those retakes, I would move on and focus on killing some upper level Bio classes. If you haven't taken Stats-most people don't find it too difficult so that might be a good boost. That's how I would do it but an expert like Goro might differ.

 

[DocWinter]

I definitely understand that its going to be an uphill battle from here on out, but like I have stated before I can't live with myself if I didn't at least give myself a chance.

The best thing I have learned from here and all of your encouraging feedback isthat no matter what happens everything is in my control from how much effort I am willing to put to the grades I get that will determine my success.

If there is any more input on retake vs masters and what would be more advantageous I would truly appericate it!

A masters isn't the ticket. If your GPA and science GPA and MCAT are not where they need to be, don't think about a masters.
If however you have a 3.4GPA and 28 MCAT and no takers, perhaps then you look at masters. But it's a worthless endeavor if you go masters right now without first fixing what admins will be primarily basing your application on.

 

[MrSamrtGuy]

Also, never call yourself a failure. That is a ****ed up way of looking at yourself. Doing poorly in some schoolwork does not make you a failure.

 

[jl lin]

It would seem me, if you had to take more than one of the core pre-req. courses twice, other than for say, refreshment (say you took the course forever ago, and it just makes sense to re-take it), the re-take effect of DO grade replacement may have diminishing returns--at least to the point, as you have stated, where you have to kick some major A butt in upper level science courses. But a person may certainly be kidding himself/herself in taking upper level science courses or say some SMP, if they had trouble getting numerous, serial A-grades in their pre-req science courses for grade replacement.

 

[wholeheartedly]

OP, I think in your situation it might be best to take a step back for a bit before you go spending a bunch of money on another masters degree or more post bac classes. Try to use your MPH. If you did it right, you should be able to find some employment where you're helping people somehow. It'll give you a chance to recharge, gain some perspective, gain some excellent skills, and see if there's anything else you like doing. It will also give you some more time/distance from those grades. Then if you decide to go back and take another crack at it, you'll also bring those other experiences to the table.

Do you know why you did so poorly the first time around? Are you sure you can greatly improve on that? (Don't get me wrong, I don't think an MPH is a easy degree like some do, but I'm just about finished with mine and it's just a very different beast than basic science courses. Performance in that might not be predictive for you).

 

[Tommyguns89]

we need the answer.....what is your current cgpa with all classes counted(MD application gpa)? then seperately, what is your cgpa with only the last of each retake counted (DO application gpa)?

don't count the masters

Wouldnt the masters coursework factor into his GPA for DO schools? I know that they changed it this year so even professional coursework counts which is dragging me down a bit.

 

[Goro]

It will, but OP appears to have some much GPA damage that I don't think it will help. But the bigger problem with MPHs is that they're hard to gauge for rigor. I mean, someone who aces Anatomy, Micro and Physiology is someone who can handle med school.

But acing "Introduction to Ergonomics", "Fundamentals of Occupational Health", "Principles Of Occupational and Environmental Hygiene", (all real courses at JHU, BTW), what does this tell me?? I have no idea!

Wouldn't the masters coursework factor into his GPA for DO schools? I know that they changed it this year so even professional coursework counts which is dragging me down a bit.

I think my all time record for an interviewee was four Orgo takes. I think they were F > C -> C-> A. What I look for is a year of excellence on top of that. We need to know that the applicant can handle medical school.

I guess my question then is what is the number of times an Osteopathic MS would be OK with re-takes in order for one to achieve As in said courses versus saying, "Ah no."? I mean even for DO, at some point averaging would be an issue, no? Can a person re-take science pre-reqs 2, 3, or 4 times until they get A's in those courses, and still get in? Just honestly curious as to how this works.

OP, SMPs are a dime a dozen, so you needs to do homework to find one that will accept you, and be prepared to relocate. Failing that, you should take a year off to do a DIY post-bac to show us that you can handle medical school.

Thank you everyone for your kind and insightful replies.

As for my undergraduate history passing these courses I meant getting mostly C's. Here is an example situation when I was struggling with Organic Chemistry: I took it the first time and failed, second time and got a D and third time and got a C. And there are multiple courses which followed the same path which, I know, is pathetic. This is why I was advised not to go for a post-bac because it would just be doing the same thing over again when I had multiple opportunities to succeed in those courses during my undergrad. I don't know if you think a post-bac would still be a good option.

I am aware that SMP are very difficult to get into which is why I haven't been able to get into any and the only thing I got going for me is this non-research Masters in Biomedical science which includes courses such as biochemisty, gross anatomy, human physiology, neurology/nueroanatomy, advanced cell biology, advanced immunology, microbial pathogenesis and virology, principles of pathology and biostatistics. But from what I read on here I am still not sure if this is the best path although it does seem like a very redeeming thing as long as I get all A's.