BIID (body integrity identity disorder)

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heartsink

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http://kfor.com/2015/10/01/woman-sa...r-fulfilling-lifelong-wish-of-becoming-blind/

I read a couple threads on SDN about this, including the one from June here in Psychiatry. I was disappointed that the discussion was primarily between self-described "patients" and "non-students", and there was very little serious input by any psych residents or attending psychiatrists.

Obviously anyone can chime in but I'm especially hoping to get some opinion from the latter in this thread. From my reading, these just seem like delusions and should be treated like delusions. If a man walks into a psychiatrists office and says "I think the government is after me", the psychiatrist probably won't say "well lets get you hidden then." Likewise, I would guess if someone walks into a psychiatrist office and says "I don't think i should have a tongue", the psychiatrist probably won't say "let me find my scissors."

Is this a subset flavor of schizophrenia? Is it even mental illness? More people on the extreme end of the spectrum of wanting to be special snowflakes?

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Looks like somebody else also browsed Reddit today. 🙂
Of course it's a mental illness. No, it's not schizophrenia, it's a more like a kind of somatoform disorder. Yes, it's delusional in quality and like other similar disorders will be aa big challenge to treat. Much like anorexia nervosa in a lot of ways. I don't doubt there can be some co-morbid narcicism with it, like any other disorder. Fortunately, its rare compared to disorders like depression. Any therapist or psychiatrist that intentionally assists a suicidal, or otherwise self harming patient to harm him or herself should be prosecuted.
 
People with this phenomenon have online associations with each other. Could have a cultural/social element to it. The way distress manifests in any time period are different. Or it could be that self-amputations were previously unknown and the openness people feel in seeking it through others makes it more known. For me it's not particularly strange. The most common surgery in the US is genital cutting, which is done in the millions. Out of hundreds of millions of people, for a few hundred to desire cutting off their limbs or blinding themselves seems sort of normal at a statistical level. The fact that it hasn't become an epidemic actually makes it more believable as an illness unto itself, perhaps neurological.

Here's an article I saw on Twitter the other day about the subject:
https://www.academia.edu/4805076/Am...dentity_Disorder_and_the_Ethics_of_Amputation
 
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When you say genital cutting I assume you are referring to circumcisions. Reddit hates circumcisions. That has nothing to do with serious mental illness. Like you said, circumcisions are very common, and are considered a "normal" part of everyday life that on the whole isn't nearly as harmful, and comes from mainstream accepted religion in western culture.
 
When you say genital cutting I assume you are referring to circumcisions. Reddit hates circumcisions. That has nothing to do with serious mental illness. Like you said, circumcisions are very common, and are considered a "normal" part of everyday life that on the whole isn't nearly as harmful, and comes from mainstream accepted religion in western culture.
I'm saying that genital cutting in the US is normalized. As someone who finds genital cutting more strange than familiar, I am saying that the concept of elective body amputation when you consider what can become normalized doesn't seem so odd to me. Also that elective body amputation hasn't become normalized to anywhere near the same extent supports the possibility that elective body amputation is more a neurological/psychiatric anomaly than some sort of cultural phenomenon—although I suppose you never know what will catch on over long stretches of time, but I don't see that happening (which I suppose is a rather arrogant thing to say when it's only based on a feeling).
 
Looks like somebody else also browsed Reddit today. 🙂
Of course it's a mental illness. No, it's not schizophrenia, it's a more like a kind of somatoform disorder. Yes, it's delusional in quality and like other similar disorders will be aa big challenge to treat. Much like anorexia nervosa in a lot of ways. I don't doubt there can be some co-morbid narcicism with it, like any other disorder. Fortunately, its rare compared to disorders like depression. Any therapist or psychiatrist that intentionally assists a suicidal, or otherwise self harming patient to harm him or herself should be prosecuted.

From the article, it sounds like a psychologist help her blind herself. I'm having trouble believing that would happen.
 
http://kfor.com/2015/10/01/woman-sa...r-fulfilling-lifelong-wish-of-becoming-blind/

I read a couple threads on SDN about this, including the one from June here in Psychiatry. I was disappointed that the discussion was primarily between self-described "patients" and "non-students", and there was very little serious input by any psych residents or attending psychiatrists.

Obviously anyone can chime in but I'm especially hoping to get some opinion from the latter in this thread. From my reading, these just seem like delusions and should be treated like delusions. If a man walks into a psychiatrists office and says "I think the government is after me", the psychiatrist probably won't say "well lets get you hidden then." Likewise, I would guess if someone walks into a psychiatrist office and says "I don't think i should have a tongue", the psychiatrist probably won't say "let me find my scissors."

Is this a subset flavor of schizophrenia? Is it even mental illness? More people on the extreme end of the spectrum of wanting to be special snowflakes?

One must have a wide-differential when seeing patients with such symptoms. Such symptoms may occur in the context of psychosis but then you would see a clear disturbed reasoning behind the belief. For example, if someone reveals that they want their leg amputated, and it becomes clear this is because there is a special rod that aliens have implanted, then it is clear the patient is delusional and may have a psychotic disorder such as "schizophrenia". One the other hand, one may wish to have a limb amputated because they have a sexual fetish and have masturbatory fantasies about being an amputee and being worshipped by others who are sexually aroused by amputees. There may be a hypochondriacal preoccupation with disease. The patient may have an obsessive-compulsive spectrum disorder (wrongly called illness anxiety disorder and classified as a "somatic symptom and related disorders" in DSM-5) and believe they have an osteosarcoma that has been missed and wish to have their leg amputated for this reason. Or they may have a morbid anxiety such as found in OCD, such as thoughts their leg will somehow be contaminated, or become gangrenous and find thoughts of amputating diminish the anxiety produced by such obsessions. The patient may have a factitious disorder and feign symptoms in order to have their limb amputated for no obvious external reward, possibly for the sick role. This may be complicated as many patients with factitious disorder do have additional external motivation (such as disability payments) but these are not primary. There may be no psychopathology and simply a response to frustration - perhaps the patient has an itch that won't go away and is driving them crazy, and they think amputation will help but do not wish to reveal they simply have an itch. The patient may be a drug addict seeking amputation because they think it will help to obtain narcotics. Patients with antisocial personality disorder may sometimes go to extreme lengths to obtain their goals. Finally, an hysterical conversion should always be considered with bizarre neuropsychiatric symptoms.

As you can see, in psychiatry it is important to have an open mind to the problems the patient has and not make the error that too many psychiatrists have that a belief or wish they cannot understand is delusional. On the contrary, many such patients labeled as "delusional" are nothing of the sort and a careful history may reveal some other psychopathology, or no psychiatric disorder at all.

with my neuropsychiatrist hat on I will say I believe there is a Body integrity identity disorder, but I don't believe it is a psychiatric illness, but a behavioral neurology syndrome akin to asomatagnosia. The agnosias are fascinating symptoms and there are many kinds of agnosia that the typical psychiatrist or neurologist may be unaware of. In the differential must be alien limb syndrome, which can occur in cortico-basal degeneration and creutzfeld-jakob disease amongst other neurodegenerative diseases. It may also be a disorder of monitoring of the self.

I do not believe the woman in the article the op links has BIID and it is not true that these people are seeking to be disabled. On the contrary they feel disabled by a limb that does not seem to be their own. This woman clearly does not have a behavioral neurological syndrome. She started wearing dark glasses and and using a cane by the age of 18. I would want to know more about her social and developmental history. Patients who use such props typically in my experience have severe alexithymia and are completely unable to verbalize their intenral distress. They often have disorganized or preoccupied or anxious attachment styles, and come from backgrounds with severe invalidation, neglect, trauma. Patients who gravitate to having particular conditions often see how others with a particular condition are treated. For example, a neglected child may see the sympathy and care provided to a blind relative and fantasise about being blind. If this is carrying right through adulthood it would suggest an early developmental arrest. A fixation on blindness is also ripe for dynamic interpretation. The most fantastical part of the story is the woman did not make herself blind but apparently found some nutty psychologist to make her blind. Why this is something that she needed someone else to do her is also very revealing and suggests she does not have a behavioral neurological syndrome but more likely to be a seriously disturbed individual.
 
with my neuropsychiatrist hat on I will say I believe there is a Body integrity identity disorder, but I don't believe it is a psychiatric illness, but a behavioral neurology syndrome akin to asomatagnosia. The agnosias are fascinating symptoms and there are many kinds of agnosia that the typical psychiatrist or neurologist may be unaware of. In the differential must be alien limb syndrome, which can occur in cortico-basal degeneration and creutzfeld-jakob disease amongst other neurodegenerative diseases. It may also be a disorder of monitoring of the self.

From the little I've been able to access on the subject it seems that one theory that comes up a lot in regards to body integrity identity disorder is that the brain has a kind of inbuilt mapping system of the body, and in individuals with BIID that system isn't working properly so the brain is missing parts of the body map, or the body map is incomplete so the brain doesn't recognise say a leg or an arm as being integral, or 'belonging' to the individual and therefore it becomes a foreign object in a way. I know I'm summarising this really badly, but as a Neuropsychiatrist would you say this is one of the leading theories for BIID as a neurological condition?
 
http://kfor.com/2015/10/01/woman-sa...r-fulfilling-lifelong-wish-of-becoming-blind/

I read a couple threads on SDN about this, including the one from June here in Psychiatry. I was disappointed that the discussion was primarily between self-described "patients" and "non-students", and there was very little serious input by any psych residents or attending psychiatrists.

Sorry, I honestly didn't mean to try and take over the other thread and turn it into a non student/Doctor discussion. True BIID is such a rare and fascinating condition, and it's so often confused with other disorders (especially by the media and a good portion of the 'special snowflake brigade' that tend to gather in cyberspace) that I was kind of hoping to jump start the discussion in that thread, get some Doctors to chime in with lots of cool information. I'm sorry I got a little off track though when the discussion began to shift to other topics regarding body/gender/identity dysphoria type issues. I hope you get more actual medical type responses in this thread - really sorry that didn't happen before. :sorry:
 
From the little I've been able to access on the subject it seems that one theory that comes up a lot in regards to body integrity identity disorder is that the brain has a kind of inbuilt mapping system of the body, and in individuals with BIID that system isn't working properly so the brain is missing parts of the body map, or the body map is incomplete so the brain doesn't recognise say a leg or an arm as being integral, or 'belonging' to the individual and therefore it becomes a foreign object in a way. I know I'm summarising this really badly, but as a Neuropsychiatrist would you say this is one of the leading theories for BIID as a neurological condition?
Sort of - I think one of the problems is you have a number of different reasons why people might present with similar but slightly different complaints that if you don't try to understand phenomenologically it is hard to find the neural underpinnings as you may be looking at a heterogenous group. Currently there are only theories.

Here is a nice review of the different theories: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4094630/

The one issue is that there is a difference between a "desire to be disabled" (which couldn't have a good neural underpinning specifically but various frontal lobe pathologies could lead to say fixation/obsession, or a disregard for self-preservation) and a feeling that something is wrong with a particular part of the body that is healthy. My main gripe with the literature is people have become too fascinated with the "desire to be disabled", and I think in some cases have claimed this is the motivation when it certainly isn't for everyone. If you don't accurately describe what you observe then you have no chance of understanding it.
 
I'm saying that genital cutting in the US is normalized. As someone who finds genital cutting more strange than familiar, I am saying that the concept of elective body amputation when you consider what can become normalized doesn't seem so odd to me. Also that elective body amputation hasn't become normalized to anywhere near the same extent supports the possibility that elective body amputation is more a neurological/psychiatric anomaly than some sort of cultural phenomenon—although I suppose you never know what will catch on over long stretches of time, but I don't see that happening (which I suppose is a rather arrogant thing to say when it's only based on a feeling).
So are those nasty big fake boobs, hair extensions, and fatty gross lips.
 
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