Bipolar II

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Neuro111

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
52
Reaction score
35
Has anyone ever come across a true bipolar II patient? Every single patient I've had so far diagnosed with bipolar II, I have had to change to some sort of trauma disorder/substance use. Even the patient I diagnosed as bipolar II, I changed the diagnosis over time as more history/symptoms of trauma came to surface. I am at a large academic center and I've seen pretty much most bread and butter cases (and a lot of zebras) but bipolar II seems elusive.
 
Last edited:
Once? But I didn't follow her over time, so who knows if I would have remained convinced of the diagnosis if I'd had that opportunity.
 
Nope. Every time I think I maybe, possibly, finally found one . . . Cluster B jumps out again. Which leads me to believe that it isn't real. Because like Sasquatch, if it was real it should have been seen by now.

But I'm open to being proven wrong.
 
I have one young college student. She's had two hypomanic episodes but didn't seem to quite have the impairment to call it mania. Close one. Could totally see her getting switched to bipolar I one of these days.
 
Huh. I see this reasonably often. I don't really see a lot of overlap with trauma or personality disorder. More typically it's someone who looks more like a treatment resistant depression, poorly responsive to antidepressants, but never really considered their periods of high productivity/low sleep need to be related or pathological in any way.
Often they do very well on Lamictal.

I honestly find it weird that bipolar and personality/trauma are supposed to be easily confused. I don't find them similar at all. The DSM criteria have almost no overlap and most people with bipolar disorder don't behave any differently from anyone else when they are not in an active mood episode. The difficulty with bipolar II is differentiation from unipolar, not from trauma. People with bad trauma histories are chronically dysfunctional.
 
Last edited:
Huh. I see this reasonably often. I don't really see a lot of overlap with trauma or personality disorder. More typically it's someone who looks more like a treatment resistant depression, poorly responsive to antidepressants, but never really considered their periods of high productivity/low sleep need to be related or pathological in any way.
Often they do very well on Lamictal.

I honestly find it weird that bipolar and personality/trauma are supposed to be easily confused. I don't find them similar at all. The DSM criteria have almost no overlap and most people with bipolar disorder don't behave any differently from anyone else when they are not in an active mood episode. The difficulty with bipolar II is differentiation from unipolar, not from trauma. People with bad trauma histories are chronically dysfunctional.

Ive only had a couple who I truly thought had bipolar 2 but they presented the same way. Severely depressed during their depressive episodes and then would have some sporadic periods of (what I’m classifying as) hypomanic episodes. I wrestle with myself about these cases though because I wonder if they’re just coming out of the depression or comparing it to being so significant depressed and seeming more active because of this. Their overall activity level, mood and sleep patterns seemed to be out of the norm for that though.

I agree that if you can get someone to describe their symptoms over some sort of timeframe, it’s not that hard to differentiate “bipolar disorder” from trauma or personality disorders. Those people will end up describing day to day or intraday fluctuating mood, when you talk about sleep they’ll say “oh yeah there’s periods of time I never sleep” but then you find out they don’t sleep for a day then crash (usually bc of substances). When I explain to people that “rapid cycling” bipolar disorder is more than 3x manic episodes a YEAR so their daily anxious mood fluctuations aren’t that, that tends to put it in perspective.
 
I have seen a few cases. I agree that there is significant overlap between bipolar II and trauma/personality pathology, but the key for me is that there is typically very clear interpersonal dysfunction in the latter which is generally not present or less prominent in the former. I will freely admit, though, that coming into our unit or for an ECT evaluation with a historical diagnosis of bipolar II makes me raise an eyebrow and intentionally dig for evidence of a trauma history and focus more on interpersonal functioning than I otherwise would.

Just yesterday I saw a young woman with a diagnosis of "depression with bipolar tendencies" - I don't even know what that means - who described fairly clear episodes of mood elevation lasting a few days (decreased need for sleep, increased energy, subjective mood elevation/irritability). She was sexually assaulted once while in college but otherwise had a pretty benign upbringing, and there was no clear evidence of significant interpersonal dysfunction other than now being extremely hesitant to have sex due to the assault. Her depressive symptoms pre-dated the assault. I ultimately diagnosed her with MDD as the periods of mood elevation didn't quite meet criteria for hypomania, but the combination of very early onset of depression prior to any trauma history, fairly benign childhood (supportive childhood, no history of recurrent trauma, overall successful academically and personally), and a clear, episodic quality to periods of mood elevation that don't quite meet criteria for hypomanic episodes makes me more suspicious of bipolar II.

I do think these cases exist, but I see misdiagnosed trauma symptomatology or personality pathology far more often than genuine bipolar illness.
 
I love this. Who gave her this diagnosis - I really hope it wasn't a psychiatrist.

I'm pretty sure they were referring to MDD with mixed features although the above case does sound more like Bipolar II.
 
I have seen a few cases. I agree that there is significant overlap between bipolar II and trauma/personality pathology, but the key for me is that there is typically very clear interpersonal dysfunction in the latter which is generally not present or less prominent in the former. I will freely admit, though, that coming into our unit or for an ECT evaluation with a historical diagnosis of bipolar II makes me raise an eyebrow and intentionally dig for evidence of a trauma history and focus more on interpersonal functioning than I otherwise would.

Just yesterday I saw a young woman with a diagnosis of "depression with bipolar tendencies" - I don't even know what that means - who described fairly clear episodes of mood elevation lasting a few days (decreased need for sleep, increased energy, subjective mood elevation/irritability). She was sexually assaulted once while in college but otherwise had a pretty benign upbringing, and there was no clear evidence of significant interpersonal dysfunction other than now being extremely hesitant to have sex due to the assault. Her depressive symptoms pre-dated the assault. I ultimately diagnosed her with MDD as the periods of mood elevation didn't quite meet criteria for hypomania, but the combination of very early onset of depression prior to any trauma history, fairly benign childhood (supportive childhood, no history of recurrent trauma, overall successful academically and personally), and a clear, episodic quality to periods of mood elevation that don't quite meet criteria for hypomanic episodes makes me more suspicious of bipolar II.

I do think these cases exist, but I see misdiagnosed trauma symptomatology or personality pathology far more often than genuine bipolar illness.

That sounds like a very typical case of bipolar II to me. If any episode lasted at least 4 days and included just one more symptom ( increased gda/productivity, increased self confidence, rapid speech, racing thoughts, or distractibility) then she meets criteria. Even if she doesn't meet those criteria, for someone like this I would still offer psychoeducation about bipolar disorder and the importance of maintaining circadian eurhythmia, and offer basic sleep hygiene counseling and a referral to IPSRT if possible.

If she has responded well to antidepressants and never found them to trigger mania then I probably would not mess with success, but if she does not respond to antidepressants or (obviously) if they trigger hypo/mania I would have a low threshold to trial a mood stabilizer.

As a resident I recall feeling that bipolar disorder was overdiagnosed. Now 8 years post residency and after a couple of nasty surprises from giving unopposed antidepressants to people with apparently mild cyclothymia, I have much more respect for the bipolar II diagnosis.
 
Huh. I see this reasonably often. I don't really see a lot of overlap with trauma or personality disorder. More typically it's someone who looks more like a treatment resistant depression, poorly responsive to antidepressants, but never really considered their periods of high productivity/low sleep need to be related or pathological in any way.
Often they do very well on Lamictal.

I honestly find it weird that bipolar and personality/trauma are supposed to be easily confused. I don't find them similar at all. The DSM criteria have almost no overlap and most people with bipolar disorder don't behave any differently from anyone else when they are not in an active mood episode. The difficulty with bipolar II is differentiation from unipolar, not from trauma. People with bad trauma histories are chronically dysfunctional.

I've seen PTSD criterion E symptoms mislabeled as (hypo)manic symptoms many times. Combine this with someone who has a borderline personality organization and periodically engages in reckless behaviors (sex, drugs, dangerous driving, gambling, spending/shopping) and I could see how mistakes can happen if someone isn't putting much effort into their assessment.

Both populations also have "depressive" symptoms that are generally more difficult to treat (especially without psychotherapy).
 
That sounds like a very typical case of bipolar II to me. If any episode lasted at least 4 days and included just one more symptom ( increased gda/productivity, increased self confidence, rapid speech, racing thoughts, or distractibility) then she meets criteria. Even if she doesn't meet those criteria, for someone like this I would still offer psychoeducation about bipolar disorder and the importance of maintaining circadian eurhythmia, and offer basic sleep hygiene counseling and a referral to IPSRT if possible.

If she has responded well to antidepressants and never found them to trigger mania then I probably would not mess with success, but if she does not respond to antidepressants or (obviously) if they trigger hypo/mania I would have a low threshold to trial a mood stabilizer.

As a resident I recall feeling that bipolar disorder was overdiagnosed. Now 8 years post residency and after a couple of nasty surprises from giving unopposed antidepressants to people with apparently mild cyclothymia, I have much more respect for the bipolar II diagnosis.

She came to be on a somewhat bizarre regimen (basically subtherapeutic doses of bupropion SR, lithium, and quetiapine), so I'm guessing that the psychiatrist who referred her - I met her in the context of an interventional psychiatry evaluation - also has a high suspicion for bipolar illness. She reported doing somewhat well on this regimen so I didn't mess around with it, but I did suggest to her that she consider talking about going up on the lithium and quetiapine since she is having persistent depressive symptoms.
 
She came to be on a somewhat bizarre regimen (basically subtherapeutic doses of bupropion SR, lithium, and quetiapine), so I'm guessing that the psychiatrist who referred her - I met her in the context of an interventional psychiatry evaluation - also has a high suspicion for bipolar illness. She reported doing somewhat well on this regimen so I didn't mess around with it, but I did suggest to her that she consider talking about going up on the lithium and quetiapine since she is having persistent depressive symptoms.

If she's mania stabilized on the lithium (?) why not bump the bupropion instead? That's a more reliable antidepressant than either Li or qtp.
 
Personally I think are a sizable group of folks with bipolar 2 end up getting labeled substance induced mood disorder because they start ramping up into hypomania, then suddenly are drinking or doing cocaine and things get out of hand.

Remember something like 50% of folks with bipolar have a comorbid substance use disorder.
 
Personally I think are a sizable group of folks with bipolar 2 end up getting labeled substance induced mood disorder because they start ramping up into hypomania, then suddenly are drinking or doing cocaine and things get out of hand.

Remember something like 50% of folks with bipolar have a comorbid substance use disorder.

does anyone else ever stop and think about how via the transitive property any patient with psychiatric illness likely has all the psychiatric illnesses?
 
If she's mania stabilized on the lithium (?) why not bump the bupropion instead? That's a more reliable antidepressant than either Li or qtp.

Not really a big fan of bupropion in bipolar disorder - it's pretty clear that if you're worried about TAAS, antidepressants with more significant noradrenergic and dopaminergic activity are more strongly associated with TAAS than, say, SSRIs. While the case is diagnostically unclear, I have sufficient concern that there is underlying bipolar pathology, and the lithium and quetiapine doses are almost certainly subtherapeutic (450 mg daily and 100 mg qHS, respectively). I would rather change the doses of those than bupropion.
 
Not really a big fan of bupropion in bipolar disorder - it's pretty clear that if you're worried about TAAS, antidepressants with more significant noradrenergic and dopaminergic activity are more strongly associated with TAAS than, say, SSRIs. While the case is diagnostically unclear, I have sufficient concern that there is underlying bipolar pathology, and the lithium and quetiapine doses are almost certainly subtherapeutic (450 mg daily and 100 mg qHS, respectively). I would rather change the doses of those than bupropion.

I have a sense of what it must mean, but I had never encountered the acronym TAAS in this context before and it is proving very difficult to Google. What does it stand for?

Not all NE or DA activity is created equal when it comes to anti-depressant induced manias, if that is what we are talking about. MAOIs for instance obviously hugely increase available NE and DA in the cleft but are actually not any more prone to cause switching than SSRIs. Similarly, stimulants in therapeutic doses are not correlated at all with mania in the swedish registry data, at least when concurrent with a mood stabilizer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tr
I have a sense of what it must mean, but I had never encountered the acronym TAAS in this context before and it is proving very difficult to Google. What does it stand for?

Not all NE or DA activity is created equal when it comes to anti-depressant induced manias, if that is what we are talking about. MAOIs for instance obviously hugely increase available NE and DA in the cleft but are actually not any more prone to cause switching than SSRIs. Similarly, stimulants in therapeutic doses are not correlated at all with mania in the swedish registry data, at least when concurrent with a mood stabilizer.

Sorry, TAAS = treatment-associated affective switch.

Do you have a link to that Swedish registry data study? That's an interesting finding.
 
Sorry, TAAS = treatment-associated affective switch.

Do you have a link to that Swedish registry data study? That's an interesting finding.


Sure, it is definitely one of those results that you would not necessarily predict in advance:


It is just for methylphenidate, not stimulants generally, but I imagine it is a big part of why CANMAT is so comfortable putting modafinil as second line for bipolar depression.
 
Not really a big fan of bupropion in bipolar disorder - it's pretty clear that if you're worried about TAAS, antidepressants with more significant noradrenergic and dopaminergic activity are more strongly associated with TAAS than, say, SSRIs. While the case is diagnostically unclear, I have sufficient concern that there is underlying bipolar pathology, and the lithium and quetiapine doses are almost certainly subtherapeutic (450 mg daily and 100 mg qHS, respectively). I would rather change the doses of those than bupropion.

I agree this is a theoretical concern but in practice it does not seem to be the case. Bupropion and SSRIs are considered preferred in combination with mood stabilizer for bipolar depression


 
Last edited:
does anyone else ever stop and think about how via the transitive property any patient with psychiatric illness likely has all the psychiatric illnesses?
And Abilify treats everything! We should put it in the water!!
 
Top