buying a practice

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markglt

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contemplating life s/p residency, dont think i want to do all inpatient...don't want to start from the ground up OP on my own...thinkng about joining a group with some IP consult work. Really don't want to answer to anybody. What are the thoughts about buying a pracitce for sale, how well does this work or not in psychiatry...availabilty location etc..
 
contemplating life s/p residency, dont think i want to do all inpatient...don't want to start from the ground up OP on my own...thinkng about joining a group with some IP consult work. Really don't want to answer to anybody. What are the thoughts about buying a pracitce for sale, how well does this work or not in psychiatry...availabilty location etc..

I wouldn't pay a single dime for an outpt practice.....aside from what the building, office furniture, etc is worth.

Psychiatry is not like some fields(dental, chiro, even optho and especially opto) where pt charts are worth a certain amount of money.
 
You need to factor in the opportunity cost of slowly building your practice over several months and calculate the delta between a full practice and a slowly building one. That's the value of the practice for sale.

From what I've seen from ads, though, the asking price is always way, way over that cost.
 
You need to factor in the opportunity cost of slowly building your practice over several months and calculate the delta between a full practice and a slowly building one. That's the value of the practice for sale.

From what I've seen from ads, though, the asking price is always way, way over that cost.

the thing is though...if the practice is full of the best patients(those cash pay patients fonzie is trying so hard to get now), those aren't neccessarily going to be 'your' patients anyways once you buy the practice. In fact they will almost certainly not be.

If they are insurance based med check patients....you are going to keep a bunch of them. Whether that is a good thing or not(you'll also be inheriting the likely cluster**** that is their med list) I dunno......
 
You make your own, you'll fill up quickly but in reality, you wont' make as much money for the first year while you build up.

The advantage to buying one is there's heck of a lot of red tape to learn about and this can be learned if the staff are already in place. Good staff are hard to find. If the practice already has good staff that's gold. As mentioned above, if the patients are stabilized you just got to refill the meds and that's easy money.

The disadvantage is you can make your own without buying one, the staff may blow, and you may inherit plenty of patients that a previous doctor screwed up such as getting them addicted to Xanax and you don't want to continue it and that's a bad damned headache when it happens.

I've taken over for other doctors who left an organization who addicted their patients, and getting them off of it is a constant, patient after patient screaming at you fest for months.
 
Maybe buy the practice and take lead over the existing psychiatrists? In residency about 1/3 of the patients dropped out after the switch.

Btw, if you get paneled up on insurance companies you will fill up so fast dude. I am getting like 5-10 calls a day and referring out. I am not even on the insurance directories. It's insane.

But yea if you buy a practice, you'll save yourself a lot of the initial troubleshooting... but at some point **** will hit the fan and you'll need to figure out a way to fix it.
 
You make your own, you'll fill up quickly but in reality, you wont' make as much money for the first year while you build up.

The advantage to buying one is there's heck of a lot of red tape to learn about and this can be learned if the staff are already in place. Good staff are hard to find. If the practice already has good staff that's gold. As mentioned above, if the patients are stabilized you just got to refill the meds and that's easy money.

The disadvantage is you can make your own without buying one, the staff may blow, and you may inherit plenty of patients that a previous doctor screwed up such as getting them addicted to Xanax and you don't want to continue it and that's a bad damned headache when it happens.

I've taken over for other doctors who left an organization who addicted their patients, and getting them off of it is a constant, patient after patient screaming at you fest for months.

According to both NICE and the BNF (which I consider good sources, as the UK is the only ccountry I know of that has comprehensively looked at this problem, let alone acknowledge it), it's counterproductive to make a patient withdraw from long-term, prescribed benzodiazepine "therapy" when he or she has not voluntarily made the decision to do so. There could also be issues which should be addressed that are more important before attempting withdrawal. The more withdrawal attempts, the more difficult each subsequent withdrawal will be, and you increase the risks of protracted withdrawal symptoms.

That's a different issue than you not feeling comfortable prescribing the meds, but it doesn't mean you should give advice that's only consistent with your comfort level and not what is best for the patient. Having said that, I am not sure there is possibly a problem where comfort level with continued long-term prescribing of benzodiazepines correlates with a lack of understanding of the harm of the drugs and complexities of withdrawal.

I know you are not such a doctor, but I've known a number of US doctors who would so greatly benefit their patients by reviewing this:

http://cks.nice.org.uk/benzodiazepine-and-z-drug-withdrawal#!scenario

I say all this because I don't think the ideal should be "getting patients off" but rather having the knowledge to help them get themselves of. If they're screaming at you, something's gone wrong from the get-go. It's a traumatic experience that can be lessened greatly with the right knowledge and with giving patient autonomy over their experience.

Most iatrogenic benzodiazepine tolerant people (and I am not talking about people who take more and more, I am talking about people who have taken what they were told was a "therapeutic" dose, prescribed from one doctor for years and years) probably had an issue with control to begin with, given the nature of anxiety. Withdrawal can be a terrifying experience and an extremely traumatic one, if patients are taken off cold turkey or very abruptly. I have seen some people in this forum write about taking patients off long-term benzodiazepine use over the course of a week, which is not only dangerous, but is unethical in terms of the trauma it causes. Further, research shows this is the type of withdrawal that causes increased kindling and protracted withdrawal symptoms.

This was the direct link germane to the conversation, but all the info is good:

http://cks.nice.org.uk/benzodiazepine-and-z-drug-withdrawal#!scenariorecommendation:6
 
According to both NICE and the BNF (which I consider good sources, as the UK is the only ccountry I know of that has comprehensively looked at this problem, let alone acknowledge it), it's counterproductive to make a patient withdraw from long-term, prescribed benzodiazepine "therapy" when he or she has not voluntarily made the decision to do so. There could also be issues which should be addressed that are more important before attempting withdrawal. The more withdrawal attempts, the more difficult each subsequent withdrawal will be, and you increase the risks of protracted withdrawal symptoms.

That's a different issue than you not feeling comfortable prescribing the meds, but it doesn't mean you should give advice that's only consistent with your comfort level and not what is best for the patient. Having said that, I am not sure there is possibly a problem where comfort level with continued long-term prescribing of benzodiazepines correlates with a lack of understanding of the harm of the drugs and complexities of withdrawal.

I know you are not such a doctor, but I've known a number of US doctors who would so greatly benefit their patients by reviewing this:

http://cks.nice.org.uk/benzodiazepine-and-z-drug-withdrawal#!scenario

I say all this because I don't think the ideal should be "getting patients off" but rather having the knowledge to help them get themselves of. If they're screaming at you, something's gone wrong from the get-go. It's a traumatic experience that can be lessened greatly with the right knowledge and with giving patient autonomy over their experience.

Most iatrogenic benzodiazepine tolerant people (and I am not talking about people who take more and more, I am talking about people who have taken what they were told was a "therapeutic" dose, prescribed from one doctor for years and years) probably had an issue with control to begin with, given the nature of anxiety. Withdrawal can be a terrifying experience and an extremely traumatic one, if patients are taken off cold turkey or very abruptly. I have seen some people in this forum write about taking patients off long-term benzodiazepine use over the course of a week, which is not only dangerous, but is unethical in terms of the trauma it causes. Further, research shows this is the type of withdrawal that causes increased kindling and protracted withdrawal symptoms.

This was the direct link germane to the conversation, but all the info is good:

http://cks.nice.org.uk/benzodiazepine-and-z-drug-withdrawal#!scenariorecommendation:6

whatever the medical justifications of continuing long-term benzo therapy, I think the point for this thread (which is discussing buying a practice) is that such patients don't add value to the practice.
Who wants to pay good $ to take on the legal/DEA/medical licensure problems that a panel of long-term benzo patients will bring??

I am not saying that these patients don't deserve good psychiatric care, I am just saying that I wouldn't buy a practice with a lot of patient on chronic benzo's, or if I did buy the practice, this fact would lower my offering price for the practice.
 
Maybe buy the practice and take lead over the existing psychiatrists? .

good point, although buying such a practice (with several employed providers) would be expensive. whopper also makes a good point about buying knowledgeable staff.

One other consideration is whether insurance contracts can transfer over to the buyer of the practice (this varies greatly, so have someone knowledgeable about billing/credentialing look over the situation for you before purchasing a practice)
 
According to both NICE and the BNF (which I consider good sources, as the UK is the only ccountry I know of that has comprehensively looked at this problem, let alone acknowledge it), it's counterproductive to make a patient withdraw from long-term, prescribed benzodiazepine "therapy" when he or she has not voluntarily made the decision to do so. There could also be issues which should be addressed that are more important before attempting withdrawal. The more withdrawal attempts, the more difficult each subsequent withdrawal will be, and you increase the risks of protracted withdrawal symptoms.

yep...I tend to view it in terms of how the pt came the new provider.

-If you have a patient who was seeing psychX in a typical practice model and psychX leaves but psychY inherits all psychX's patients(and psychY does so voluntarily), I think psychY has some responsibility to favor(unless it is truly ridiculous) the current regimen if the pt doesnt want to change. Because the new psychiatrist voluntarily assumed care of those patients knowing that they were in the care of someone else who left their patients.

-But if a pt just shows up as a typical new pt and their former psych(who you arent inheriting patients from) had them on xanax 2 TID and they say "I want to stay on this" I would say "so you should probably go back to your old psych then"(or whoever is supposed to be assuming his patients)

In cases where a psych leaves and nobody assumes their patients, I think it's kinda middle ground because the patients are left hanging to some degree due to no fault of their own but the new psych also isn't hasn't neccessarily voluntarily agreed to accept all their patients in the transition either. So both sides in that case may have to give a little.
 
whatever the medical justifications of continuing long-term benzo therapy, I think the point for this thread (which is discussing buying a practice) is that such patients don't add value to the practice.
Who wants to pay good $ to take on the legal/DEA/medical licensure problems that a panel of long-term benzo patients will bring??
.

depends on if they are addicts or not. A practice feel of middle class patients who don't require escalation in dose and arent needy and really just want their ssri and klonopin 1 BID filled every 3 months or whatever can be simple and fairly good for insurance reimbursement because they arent gobbling up a ton of time. Same for stable adderall patients.

The ones that are constantly drug seeking are going to be a ton of trouble yes.

So it all depends on the type of patient who has been on 'long term benzos'......
 
I say all this because I don't think the ideal should be "getting patients off" but rather having the knowledge to help them get themselves of. If they're screaming at you, something's gone wrong from the get-go. It's a traumatic experience that can be lessened greatly with the right knowledge and with giving patient autonomy over their experience.

Oh I am very very very well aware that someone on benzos shouldn't just be taken off immediately and the information offered. I appreciate what you posted, but here is my point.

I don't try to continue long-term and high benzo dosage. What I usually do is give the patient several months, even possibly years (if the dosage was that high enough) to get off of it. I also tell the patient that if they do need psychiatric help, I need to provide it with a better medication and eventually take them off of a benzo though I will not do so immediately unless the dosage is extremely small.

The screaming usually happens in the good-insight context of "Why then did my previous doctor give me 10 mg a Xanax a day?" or the bad-insight context of "I don't give a damn what you say. That other doctor had a license, and that Xanax made me feel good! He couldn't have been giving it out wrong!" even a "Hey, this stuff I can sell on the street and that other doctor knew that! How am I am going to support myself if you cut off my Xanax, Adderall and Oxycontin!" (Yes I actually had that happen. The idiot doctor before me even argued to colleagues that we know our patients need the money and if they can make some more by selling it more power to those patients. No I am not kidding. Hey there's a reason why he no longer worked there and I had to take ovr his patients!)

If a patient has been on benzos inappropriately for a long time (months to years), I got no problem doing a slow wean-off that could take months to years (though in general no more than 2 years with the overwhelming majority less than a year) so long as they are going towards that goal. I also sometimes give patients that have been weaning successfully for weeks to months a "cool off time" where we don't taper it that month if they anticipate an extremely stressful event that month. (e.g. their wedding, death in the family)

whopper also makes a good point about buying knowledgeable staff.

If you've got a good officer manager, you've got Scotty from Star Trek. You treat that staff member well because they are the backbone of your practice. If you got a bad office manager, you can fire him/her, get a new one but during those few months, you'll be in hell and likely to make a lot less money.
 
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Oh I am very very very well aware that someone on benzos shouldn't just be taken off immediately and the information offered. I appreciate what you posted, but here is my point.

I don't try to continue long-term and high benzo dosage. What I usually do is give the patient several months, even possibly years (if the dosage was that high enough) to get off of it. .

I wouldn't give a 'new' pt I didn't automatically assume responsibility for from another provider a very long benzo taper. Let's say I pull their prescription pharm report and it says they've been on 2mg QID of xanax for 4 years. I'm not going to accept that patient and give them some incredibly long taper because I have no responsibility to them and don't know much about them. There is no reason any psych has to treat that patient(short of them presenting to a detox center I guess), unless they agreed to take all a former psychiatrists patients(in a situation whereby they joined a group practice or agency in place of someone else or something)......

I'm not going to 'fight' with my patients. I don't have a problem continuing chronic benzo therapy in many patients. I don't have a problem using benzos chronically in many patients that I started benzos on(again in some cases). But I sure as heck I'm not going to give a very long taper(and thus hundreds and possibly thousands of mgs of xanax/klonopin over time) to someone who I don't want to give benzos to period just because they come to me and say "so and so had me on this.....". Well that's really between you and so and so isn't it? In most of those cases anyways, they are just going to use the supposed long term taper and top of it off with their mom's or cousins or whatever....so they are still using the same amount(or more) as they were before but my name would be on the script providing it to.

So my philosophy is simple- give benzos to the patients I want to give benzos to. Refuse to give benzos to the patients I don't want to give benzos too. If someone comes to me and says they have been taking 8 mg of klonopin a day and I don't want to give them benzos, I simply wouldn't treat them and tell them I'm probably not the psych for them.
 
depends on if they are addicts or not. A practice feel of middle class patients who don't require escalation in dose and arent needy and really just want their ssri and klonopin 1 BID filled every 3 months or whatever can be simple and fairly good for insurance reimbursement because they arent gobbling up a ton of time. Same for stable adderall patients.
....

I agree they can be quite profitable (whether addicts or not). To me, the legal hassles/board oversight would not be worth it (whether addicts or not). I personally would not seek to take over a large patient population on benzo's, even if the benzo use had good justification. That's just my personal preference.
I agree that this type of practice can be profitable, but the psychiatrist would be wise to document well and do random Urine drug screens, and monitor for diversion.
 
The idiot doctor before me even argued to colleagues that we know our patients need the money and if they can make some more by selling it more power to those patients. No I am not kidding. Hey there's a reason why he no longer worked there and I had to take ovr his patients!)
:wow: Tell me that dude lost his medical license! Incredible.
 
Don't know what happened to him. I can tell you this was in Butler County Ohio at a place I moonlit at. I was kind of ticked off that the previous doctor did what he did, but didn't even know it was this bad until the patient said what he said. I talked to a nurse there and she told me the idiot even argued benzos financially helps patients.

I had one patient of his that had panic disorder that was Muslim, and was on a rather high dosage of Xanax. I told her why I didn't think she should be on Xanax, and she wasn't buying it at first. I spent about 15 minutes explaining the addiction potential and that it works very similarly to alcohol. She flipped out. The previous doctor was Muslim and she told me she felt totally insulted because as a Muslim she is not to take alcohol so to take something pretty much on the same order of it, even almost the same pharmacologically was an insult to her and that the other doctor was Muslim she felt even more betrayed because he of all people should've understood her feeling on this.

Then I had the opposite problem. I recommended we get her off over the course of a few months, but then she wanted off of it pretty much all at once. I had to spend the next 15 minutes telling he she could get a seizure which just made her go from very upset to VERY VERY VERY MAD (HE DID THIS TO ME?!?!?!) We did do a wean off over the course of the next month.

Edit: That same nurse told me she asked the same doctor to help her out with someone (forgot what it was) and he dropped by her house. Within a few minutes, he had all of his clothes off and was making moves on her.

I wouldn't give a 'new' pt I didn't automatically assume responsibility for from another provider a very long benzo taper.

I have kicked out patients pretty quickly even when offered the long taper. Many of these patients really didn't know what was going on and I can't blame them having placed their faith in their doctor. Some of them, however, are just people trying to exploit the system. I kicked out one patient after two sessions after she was yelling and screaming at me to the degree where I thought I was going to get attacked. Now I'm a guy, know martial artis, but this was a 6' tall, very muscular and overweight woman that didn't have a unibrow, but hey, she should've given her attitude.

She demanded to talk to my boss. I gladly introduced her to the boss and told her, "please tell the doctor here why you are mad at me, because I will not supply you with medications that are considered dangerous when mixed together, Xanax and Suboxone, and are contraindicated by the manufacturer."

The previous doctor gave her as much of those two meds as she wanted without scrutinizing the regimen, and in this case it was a different doctor than the one above that graduated from a fellowship in addiction of all things. This woman gave an obese patient with sleep apnea high dosages of Suboxone to help him sleep of all things just to give you an idea of just WTF I was dealing with when I took over this chump's patients.

Getting to the point, if you every take over anyone's practice, their practices may greatly differ from your own IMHO, if you are a good clinician and so was the previous doctor, the level of disagreement will be on a reasonable plane. E.g. he might've started a psychotic patient on Geodon, I might've started one on Risperdal. Not a big deal.

But if there's a major difference, every single patient you see for the first time, you'll have to go through a very difficult period that will drag on the interview, thus making this far less profitable, of either having to keep them on a medication regimen you don't like or explaining why you're changing it. Often times the retiring practitioner will want to keep tabs on his patients becuase he has a bond with them and you'll be in the oh-so-uncomfortable position of patients telling him you told them he put them on the wrong meds.
 
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