Calculus?

[HaiThar]

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Hello there, my question regards the importance of calculus in pre-medical education. I've never really excelled at math, and taking calculus seems rather daunting seeing as I'll have to start from college algebra and work my way up from there. My question is this: should I take statistics or should I take calculus?
Will taking statistics make my application weaker?

Thanks.

 

[TexasMDtobe]

I believe some schools require a semester of calculus, so you may want to contact the schools you're interested in to make sure. You might be able to substitute a semester of stats (taught in the math department), but I don't know for sure.

Before you take it, calculus seems impossibly opaque. Luckily, college algebra sets you up for success in calculus and so long as you do the homework problems and look for the underlying themes, its not that bad.

In retrospect, calculus was one of the more interesting classes I took and the concepts tied in with just about every other science class. Statistics on the other hand is useful in everyday life in the sense of evaluating the claims of various news articles, research journals, and advertisements.

 

[AH3]

It isn't important for medical school preparation/application, but some schools require it. To see a list of ones that do, check their website or the MSAR. In general, calculus is usually preferred as a basic course that most people should take in any field.

 

[CarlATHF]

Most schools require Calc I. Very few (I can only think of two off the top of my head) require Calc II. I don't know if any require stats, but some schools really like it if you've taken a course in it.

 

[figmentj]

I don't know about the preference in general, though I know some schools require a year of calc (I and II) or calc/stats combo. I would highly recommend you take calc anyway, though. It is very useful in all kinds of ways: cementing your algebra skills that you will need in many other classes, helping conceptualize math in a new way, helping you learn higher-level problem solving skills and how to think your way out of traps, forming a sort of behind-the-scenes groundwork for almost every other science class.

Not to mention that it's interesting and sometimes fun, and if you're a math hater it might change your entire outlook on the subject - it did mine. Calculus was where everything I "learned" previously began to make sense, and became real knowledge in my mind instead of a series of memorized facts.

 

[mdbound1987]

Most schools require Calc I. Very few (I can only think of two off the top of my head) require Calc II. I don't know if any require stats, but some schools really like it if you've taken a course in it.

This is not true at all. I looked through msar recently and there are about only 20 schools that require calculus, many of which are CA and TX state schools and your University of Michigan, hopkins, harvard, wash u, etc...basically top 10 schools. Most schools require one year of college math...that's it, so statistics, college algebra, pre-calc. Since you hate math, take courses that will help you get the best gpa. Why risk getting a bad grade in calculus when you can get A's in lower level math courses. All it's gonna do it hurt your science gpa if you don't do well and you will kick yourself when you realize you couldve avoided it. As a pre-med, you take enough difficult classes, so why add one more that is unnecessary to the mix. Adcoms do not care if you take calculus if it isn't required for their school; they do care if your gpa is good or not. If you were a math person who would def get an A, I'd say go for it, but from your post, it is obvious that you aren't. I will say that if there is a school that requires calculus and you cannot see yourself not applying there, then go for it.

 

[ziggydoc]

You do not need calc to get into med school, I only had 1 semester of stat in college, and got into multiple med schools. I would suggest that you take stat just because it is very useful, and maybe calc I if you want to have more selections when it comes time applying. But otherwise stat is fine. It helps to know which med schools you may want to go to tho, so you can gear your course load toward what that school suggests.

 

[BlueElmo]

Calc 1 and 2 aren't that bad. Probably one of the easier series in the pre-med sequence. I wish though that I had taken stats course in addition to the calculus I took.

 

[mdbound1987]

Calc 1 and 2 aren't that bad. Probably one of the easier series in the pre-med sequence. I wish though that I had taken stats course in addition to the calculus I took.

That is 100% subjective. Just because it was easy for you doesn't mean it will be easy for everyone. For example, I hate math so I sucked at calc 1, but I thought orgo was easy as hell. Orgo def isn't easy for everyone. Since OP hates math, it only makes sense not to take it unless there is a school he/she feels he/she can't live without applying to that requires calculus.

 

[dazedanconfused]

Hope the op doesnt mind if I ask a question about this topic. For those of you that took Calc I did any of you take pre-cal? Is it at all necessary? I took pre-cal in high school (sort of blew it off), and I was just curious how helpful it would be to take it before calc I

 

[figmentj]

Hope the op doesnt mind if I ask a question about this topic. For those of you that took Calc I did any of you take pre-cal? Is it at all necessary? I took pre-cal in high school (sort of blew it off), and I was just curious how helpful it would be to take it before calc I

It depends on your grasp of algebra and trigonometry. If you have a rock-solid grasp of both, then I don't think it's necessary. For me, it was absolutely necessary, because I'd never taken trig before. Both trig and algebra are heavily used in calc.

 

[dazedanconfused]

It depends on your grasp of algebra and trigonometry. If you have a rock-solid grasp of both, then I don't think it's necessary. For me, it was absolutely necessary, because I'd never taken trig before. Both trig and algebra are heavily used in calc.

Thank you for that viewpoint. I am excellent in algebra, but I have never taken trig either.

 

[snorlax]

With so many people taking Calc III and more, you should take at least Calc I.

 

[marele86]

Hello there, my question regards the importance of calculus in pre-medical education. I've never really excelled at math, and taking calculus seems rather daunting seeing as I'll have to start from college algebra and work my way up from there. My question is this: should I take statistics or should I take calculus?
Will taking statistics make my application weaker?

Thanks.

The med schools that don't require one or the other (most of them don't) don't care about non-required math courses. I assume that your degree requires one or the other? People will say statistics is more helpful for a general science background, but if you're just starting out, I have to say that calculus really helped me a ton in chemistry and physics. (I know it's not supposed to, but something about all the graphs.. I really feel like understanding derivatives and integrals helped me pick up visual concepts faster.)

But anyway, I've been there - I kind of hated math and didn't have a solid algebra background, but needed Calc for my major - and I want to really encourage you to buy Pre-calculus for dummies and the associated workbook (or something similar - these books worked for me.) I took Calc I in the spring and spent about an hour every day of winter break relearning pre-calc, and then jumped into the first few chapters of my calc textbook when I finished the workbook. It sounds like overkill, but if you're as uncertain with math as I was, it's totally worth it - I had plenty of time for all of my other classes that semester and didn't have to kill myself figuring out calculus.

Good luck.

 

[fatalerror]

It's nice that many of you like Calculus, most of it isn't very different from high school calculus . But once you enter the domain of indefinite integral derivation all bets are off, some can take a few pages to solve and can be incredibly difficult(I had a German/Austrian math prof who loved this sort of thing).

 

[mdbound1987]

With so many people taking Calc III and more, you should take at least Calc I.

Why does it matter what other people took? How does taking calc help you in any way? The person above had a different experience, but there is no calculus in algebra-based physics, orgo, gchem, gbio, or on the mcat. It's not necessary unless you will for sure get an A, which I'm guessing from the OP's concerns, he/she potentially won't.

 

[snorlax]

It just seems odd to graduate from college without being exposed to calculus. Even if I don't get an A in my calculus class, I'm glad I am taking it.

 

[mdbound1987]

It just seems odd to graduate from college without being exposed to calculus. Even if I don't get an A in my calculus class, I'm glad I am taking it.

It may feel odd to you. I don't know why but it's not important. However, if for some reason I ded feel odd not taking calculus, I would rather feel odd and increase my chances to get into med school than not feel odd and get a bad grade in a class that's unnecessary. The goal is to get into med school...not to take a math course that helps you in no way because you feel odd without taking it. If your reason for doing this is because other people you know will be like, "what? You didn't take calculus in college?" I would be like, "nope, but I'll be in med school this fall." If this was about physio or cell bio, I would say go for it even though they aren't required because they can help on the mcat. It has a benefit. Calculus does not in reference to the goal being getting in to med school.

 

[Perth Domer]

I took 2 semesters of theoretical proof based calculus.... it kicked my butt. However, I feel it really improved my critical thinking skills for what it's worth. I'm just lucky to have pulled my science GPA above a 3.5 after that. Hopefully my Physics grades will show that I am indeed good at math.

I'd want to get at least through calc 1 because it makes even non calc Physics a lot easier. I second the improving your grasp on graphs idea.

 

[figmentj]

The goal is to get into med school...not to take a math course that helps you in no way because you feel odd without taking it.

Is that really the goal? Or just a step in the process of attaining the goal, which is to become a physician with all the knowledge that entails? I agree that "feeling weird about not taking it" isn't a great reason, but I don't think "fear of getting a C" is a great reason not to take it either. I know we need good grades, but that's supposed to be a measure of our understanding and aptitude, not just a demonstration that we can choose classes that are easy enough that our numbers look good.

Obviously the system is designed in a flawed way, and the numbers aren't always an accurate reflection, and some strategy is necessary. But I don't think sacrificing true understanding of the material in the best way possible (which may or may not include calculus - I think it does) is the right strategy for attaining the true end goal. It might be good enough to get into med school, but that's not the be-all end-all of everything. After you get in, there's still a lot more to do, and success then can only be helped by a strong foundation of knowledge, not grades.

Whether or not to take calculus is a subjective thing. I just think it's really easy to get tunnel vision and forget about the entire point of all this, which is not just med school admissions. I'm as susceptible to this as anyone, don't get me wrong. I just think it's a mistake to let that become your perspective.

 

[mdbound1987]

Is that really the goal? Or just a step in the process of attaining the goal, which is to become a physician with all the knowledge that entails? I agree that "feeling weird about not taking it" isn't a great reason, but I don't think "fear of getting a C" is a great reason not to take it either. I know we need good grades, but that's supposed to be a measure of our understanding and aptitude, not just a demonstration that we can choose classes that are easy enough that our numbers look good.

Obviously the system is designed in a flawed way, and the numbers aren't always an accurate reflection, and some strategy is necessary. But I don't think sacrificing true understanding of the material in the best way possible (which may or may not include calculus - I think it does) is the right strategy for attaining the true end goal. It might be good enough to get into med school, but that's not the be-all end-all of everything. After you get in, there's still a lot more to do, and success then can only be helped by a strong foundation of knowledge, not grades.

Whether or not to take calculus is a subjective thing. I just think it's really easy to get tunnel vision and forget about the entire point of all this, which is not just med school admissions. I'm as susceptible to this as anyone, don't get me wrong. I just think it's a mistake to let that become your perspective.

I completely agree with you. Knowledge is the goal, but it should be within the scope of your ultimate goal. As a pre-med, you could take biomedical engineering classes for "knowledge," but it, in no way (like calculus), will aid you in achieving your goal of getting into medical school. We all know that engineering classes are extremely difficult, so why should I take them for knowledge even though they could possibly keep me from achieving my professional goal of becoming a physician? It just does not make sense. Do you think an adcom is gonna see at 3.0 sgpa and say, "oh well he took biomed eng classes for knowledge despite being a psychology major, so I'm gonna take him over this other student with a 3.6 sgpa who took the pre-reqs, upper level science classes, and college algebra/pre-calc." That won't happen if the rest of their applications are faily comparable. My whole point is that taking calculus is extremely subjective like you said. So, people telling a person who hates math and more than likely wouldn't do well in calculus that he should take it doesn't make sense. The fear of the "C" does matter if it isn't a class that will help you. OP could, for example, have two C's in pre-reqs already...so he/she should get another C in calculus for the knowledge? I don't think so.

 

[HaiThar]

You guys have been a great help, but what if the medical schools I'm thinking of applying to give me a choice between statistics and calculus? would they favor someone who took calculus over someone who just took statistics?

 

[BlueElmo]

You guys have been a great help, but what if the medical schools I'm thinking of applying to give me a choice between statistics and calculus? would they favor someone who took calculus over someone who just took statistics?

Probably not.

 

[figmentj]

I completely agree with you. Knowledge is the goal, but it should be within the scope of your ultimate goal. As a pre-med, you could take biomedical engineering classes for "knowledge," but it, in no way (like calculus), will aid you in achieving your goal of getting into medical school. We all know that engineering classes are extremely difficult, so why should I take them for knowledge even though they could possibly keep me from achieving my professional goal of becoming a physician? It just does not make sense. Do you think an adcom is gonna see at 3.0 sgpa and say, "oh well he took biomed eng classes for knowledge despite being a psychology major, so I'm gonna take him over this other student with a 3.6 sgpa who took the pre-reqs, upper level science classes, and college algebra/pre-calc." That won't happen if the rest of their applications are faily comparable. My whole point is that taking calculus is extremely subjective like you said. So, people telling a person who hates math and more than likely wouldn't do well in calculus that he should take it doesn't make sense. The fear of the "C" does matter if it isn't a class that will help you. OP could, for example, have two C's in pre-reqs already...so he/she should get another C in calculus for the knowledge? I don't think so.

Yeah, I hear you. I guess I am a little biased because I hated math so hard until calculus that it seems kind of like a miracle class to me. I do think that it is one of the "brain changer" classes like physics that actually make you think differently, and that is valuable for the sciences and medicine in general. If it's not going to be a brain changer and it'll just drag your GPA down, sure, don't take it. I think it can be a real turnaround though for people who think they're "bad at math" when really they're just calculus people and they never knew it. But I'm sure that expectation is colored by my experience.

 

[HaiThar]

Alright one last question, will bio-statistics fulfill the same requirement as a regular statistics class?