California Northstate University College of Medicine(CNUCOM): Avoid this school at all costs!

[gyngyn]

Is there a chance that this could happen to other provisionally or preliminary accredited schools

Kaiser
NYULI
Hackensack
TCU
Carle
UT Rio Grande
UHouston

It is quite unlikely that any of these schools will have the same troubles.
CN"U" has been an outlier since inception.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Med Ed]

It seems a bit strange that LCME would have even granted preliminary accreditation,

This only happened after a fight that went on for several years. See Ron Suskind resigns as founding dean of Northstate.

If you're wondering who Ron Suskind is, see Ron Suskind let go as founding dean of Paul L. Foster SOM.

 

[wysdoc]

This only happened after a fight that went on for several years. See Ron Suskind resigns as founding dean of Northstate.

If you're wondering who Ron Suskind is, see Ron Suskind let go as founding dean of Paul L. Foster SOM.

Whoa

 

[Go2Mars]

This only happened after a fight that went on for several years. See Ron Suskind resigns as founding dean of Northstate.

If you're wondering who Ron Suskind is, see Ron Suskind let go as founding dean of Paul L. Foster SOM.

I know it sounds like we are getting off topic, but this may actually be relevant to understanding who Ron Suskind is, how shady he is, and what his mindset was when he founded California Northstate University (CNU) College of Medicine.

Ron Suskind founded Paul L. Foster SOM Texas Tech and then he was fired for being ill-prepared for the LCME visit and making worrisome decisions. Then, he helped to create California Northstate COM in 2015 as the first U.S. M.D. for-profit school, and then he resigned immediately (we all know how CNU turned out since then). After that, he helped to create California University of Science and Medicine (CUSM) in 2018 with Dr. Prem Reddy (one of the most controversial physicians and administrators in Southern California and the creator of Prime Healthcare Services). Is Ron Suskind addicted to creating medical schools in odd and controversial circumstances?

P.S. For people who are going to ask why Dr. Prem Reddy is controversial, he was arrested in 1999 with punching a fellow physician, accused by nurses of showing up drunk to work, his hospitals were investigated by the federal government and CA Dept of Justice regarding abnormal spikes in sepsis cases, he was sued in 2018 for $65 million for overbilling patients in Southern California, and he was sued in 2021 for $37.5 million due to false claims and overbilling in 2021:

Prime Healthcare Services and Two Doctors Agree to Pay $37.5 Million to Settle Allegations of Kickbacks, Billing for a Suspended Doctor, and False Claims for Implantable Medical Hardware

One of the largest hospital systems in the nation and two of its doctors will pay $37.5 million to resolve violations of the False Claims Act and the California False Claims Act. The settlement is a joint resolution with the U.S. Department of Justice and the California Department of Justice.

www.justice.gov

Prime Healthcare, CEO Prem Reddy settle false-claims suit for $65M

Prime Healthcare and its founder/CEO, Dr. Prem Reddy, have agreed to pay $65 million to end a yearslong lawsuit alleging the hospital chain fraudulently billed Medicare by admitting patients when they should've been treated on observation status.

www.modernhealthcare.com

 

[chilly_md]

How Ron Suskind got multiple chances to help found schools is amazing. I guess Dr. Prem Reddy didn’t have much of a pool to work from though with his own reputation.

 

[deomnibusdubitandum]

Yes, it's a for profit school. The ONLY for profit MD school.

I believe Ponce is for-profit as well, for what it's worth

 

[Med Ed]

I believe Ponce is for-profit as well, for what it's worth

In 2014 Ponce was indeed acquired by the for-profit Arist Corporation, although it was founded and operated as a not-for-profit entity for most of its existence.

 

[WildWing]

This story has gotten picked up by the media, specifically since the city council approved the plan to build the teaching hospital out of the Sleep Train arena:

Medical School At Center Of Sleep Train Arena Revitalization Plan Is Denied Full Accreditation

The Sacramento City Council approved a plan Tuesday to make California Northstate University's planned teaching hospital the centerpiece of their Sleep Train Arena revitalization plan – known as Innovation Park. But CBS13 has learned the for-profit medical school was recently denied full...

sacramento.cbslocal.com

 

[DukeSmith]

So just to clarify, there is a very little chance of this happening to hackensack meridian even though it has provisional accreditation?

 

[KnightDoc]

So just to clarify, there is a very little chance of this happening to hackensack meridian even though it has provisional accreditation?

None. They are reputable, not for profit and are backed by established people who know what they are doing. They are attached to a huge, existing healthcare network. CNU was a pure money making venture from the get-go, run by a bunch of unethical, corner cutting sleazebags.

Just one example of the difference is how Hackensack initially affiliated with Seton Hall. I'm not sure what other benefits sprang from this, but one big one was their ability to tap into the federal loan program from Day One. CNU never cared about that, and never became eligible.

Do not confuse the provisional accreditation that any new school is granted with what is going on with these renegades at CNU. It's comparing apples to literal garbage.

The poor students at CNU chased a CA MD degree when no one else would take them. I REALLY hope things work out for them, but they all went in with their eyes wide open, while the issues and risks with the school were out in the open for all to see, even at the very beginning. And people are still applying today. That is the nature of the market, and the reason Caribbean schools exist and are highly profitable.

Do not confuse what is happening with CNU with any other new, non-profit, US MD program, like Hackensack. There is literally zero chance Hackensack will not become fully accredited as soon as it is eligible.

 

[Med Ed]

This story has gotten picked up by the media, specifically since the city council approved the plan to build the teaching hospital out of the Sleep Train arena:

Medical School At Center Of Sleep Train Arena Revitalization Plan Is Denied Full Accreditation

The Sacramento City Council approved a plan Tuesday to make California Northstate University's planned teaching hospital the centerpiece of their Sleep Train Arena revitalization plan – known as Innovation Park. But CBS13 has learned the for-profit medical school was recently denied full...

sacramento.cbslocal.com

"According to the LCME, full accreditation must be achieved within five years of achieving provisional accreditation, or the provisional accreditation is withdrawn and the school must start the process over."

In other words, CNU must achieve full accreditation by 2024 or it's toast.

 

[FluffyCat1212]

Oof. My heart breaks for these poor students. The whole med school application process is so confusing, and premed advising can be really hit-or-miss. Many of them probably saw the MD and didn't realize that there were red flags associated with it. Hoping that the students who were caught in the middle of this can still have a chance at a career in medicine!

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Won’t the LCME relocate the students to other schools if it loses accreditation?

 

[FluffyCat1212]

Won’t the LCME relocate the students to other schools if it loses accreditation?

IDK. I sure hope so. Would this place an undue burden on schools, though?

 

[KnightDoc]

IDK. I sure hope so. Would this place an undue burden on schools, though?

Yeah, I don't think that's really a thing. It's not like schools have a bunch of seats sitting in reserve for a failed for-profit school that thought the requirements that apply to everyone else wouldn't really be enforced against them.

I'm certainly no expert here, but I'd assume CNU would be forced to stop admitting students and would be allowed to graduate those already enrolled. Or maybe someone reputable takes over the school. Or maybe it just converts to DO, where accreditation isn't nearly as onerous and for-profit status is a more accepted thing.

Otherwise, what? People who couldn't get into @Goro's school will all of a sudden be graduating with UCSF degrees by LCME edit? I very seriously doubt LCME has the interest or power to force schools to fix this by creating spots that don't exist for students it never had any interest in. It's not like Drexel finding spots for its students after its affiliated hospital closed.

This is a school that might lose its accreditation. If that would happen, there would be a process, just like there was a process to grant it provisional accreditation. I highly doubt anyone would be thrown out in the street. I also doubt competing schools would be forced to accept these students as transfers.

They will all end up graduating with the CNU degrees they signed up for, which will have whatever value the market assigns to them, probably somewhere between DO and Caribbean, just like they probably have now. After all, it's not like CNU is Harvard, and that the insiders in the business, including just about all the adcoms who participate here, didn't see this as a possibility from the very beginning, given their for-profit status, the people behind it, and how they have been conducting themselves from the very beginning.

Worst case, if they wanted to go forward, it looks like based on what @Med Ed said they can start all over with a preliminary accreditation. I'd imagine that if they tried to just voluntarily close their doors and strand everyone that the litigation risk would be huge, and that it would not be LCME of the other CA MD schools bailing them out.

 

[Go2Mars]

"According to the LCME, full accreditation must be achieved within five years of achieving provisional accreditation, or the provisional accreditation is withdrawn and the school must start the process over."

In other words, CNU must achieve full accreditation by 2024 or it's toast.

CBS Sacramento is also investigating whether CNU failed to inform the city of Sacramento and the Sacramento city council members that they failed to achieve full accreditation status following the March 2021 LCME site visit. This is crucial because the city of Sacramento may have approved their CNU medical campus project without knowing this information. In addition, the LCME accreditation body will "issue a decision on the school's appeal by March 1st".

 

[Isoval]

Won’t the LCME relocate the students to other schools if it loses accreditation?

I'm pretty sure this isn't a thing. If the school closes, the students are on a sinking ship without any lifeboats.

It works this way with residency programs, but:
1) Residents have money attached to them when they relocate - the money originally allocated to them will follow them to their new program, which is at least a minor incentive for another program to take homeless residents
2) Residency programs losing accreditation/closing is a more common occurrence than a medical school closing. A medical school has not been shuttered in recent history, but you may recall the Hahnemann disaster a few years ago in which the PA hospital closed and displaced hundreds of residents.

I can't say with certainty what would happen to those students.

 

[DOctorCAL1]

Hey yall just thought I would chime in as a student that did their post bacc.
I'm from the area and needed a GPA booster so I looked and applied to this program. I did it fall 2020 to spring 2021. It was all online cuz of covid but they did not tell the students this until like two weeks before classes started. Some people moved from different parts of cali thinking it was in person. Others signed leases and were planning on moving. So that was mistake number one from this school.

Next, the whole linkage was messed up. They told us we need a 508 and 3.5 in the program. Later, they told us the deadline to submit amcas was nov 30 for just this school and to tell this person our amcas ID so she can flag our app so we would be considered for the interview if we just have the metrics. Later, in December, they told us oh if you submitted amcas early, you will have a better chance of getting in. They told us that AFTER like when the ship had sailed.

Then, there were issues with MCAT being cancelled and they told some people oh we will accept up until March 2021 but told others that January was the last one. Then, some of the BSMD students who met the metrics did not get interviews so they filed a lawsuit against the school.

The professors- some were nice and some were rude. The administration lacks communication as you can see and it just isn't worth it. So I didn't apply to this school and am on considering their linkage anymore. I would stay away.

 

[Med Ed]

Won’t the LCME relocate the students to other schools if it loses accreditation?

The last time a mainland US medical school closed abruptly was 1989 (Oral Roberts). The classes were broken up and distributed to other schools who volunteered to absorb them. I believe the LCME facilitated a lot of that, but it was before my time.

My opinion is that something similar would happen if CNU has to shutter, as it would be the most humane off-ramp possible, but there are no guarantees. Other medical schools cannot be forced into taking transfers, and the LCME is under no obligation to find new homes for them.

 

[KnightDoc]

It works this way with residency programs, but:
1) Residents have money attached to them when they relocate - the money originally allocated to them will follow them to their new program, which is at least a minor incentive for another program to take homeless residents
2) Residency programs losing accreditation/closing is a more common occurrence than a medical school closing. A medical school has not been shuttered in recent history, but you may recall the Hahnemann disaster a few years ago.

I can't say with certainty what would happen to those students.

FYI - Hahnemann was a hospital attached to a medical school (Drexel) that did NOT close. While it certainly was an unexpected disaster, Drexel was around to make sure everyone was accommodated somewhere.

 

[Isoval]

FYI - Hahnemann was a hospital attached to a medical school (Drexel) that did NOT close. While it certainly was an unexpected disaster, Drexel was around to make sure everyone was accommodated somewhere.

Yup, I should edit to be more clear I was talking about the residency programs and not the associated school.

 

[KnightDoc]

The last time a mainland US medical school closed abruptly was 1989 (Oral Roberts). The classes were broken up and distributed to other schools who volunteered to absorb them. I believe the LCME facilitated a lot of that, but it was before my time.

My opinion is that something similar would happen if CNU has to shutter, as it would be the most humane off-ramp possible, but there are no guarantees. Other medical schools cannot be forced into taking transfers, and the LCME is under no obligation to find new homes for them.

What were the circumstances surrounding the closure? 1989 is a lifetime ago in the med school world, and no one ever dealt with a for-profit institution like CNU. It would be great if UCSF and UCLA opened their doors to these folks, but I honestly don't see that happening. If they would be distributed to similar schools, what other for-profit MD options are there? Again, did the Oral Roberts situation involve a denial of accreditation?

In any event, it's probably a total waste of time to speculate until we learn whether the results of the appeal will involve any remediation putting these guys on a path to full accreditation. Based on what you pointed out above about 2024, though, worst case seems to me like they are told to stop accepting students now and are allowed to run off their existing classes until 2025, since the status quo will exist until 2024 anyway.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Won’t the LCME relocate the students to other schools if it loses accreditation?

I don't think the LCME can force other schools to admit students.

 

[chilly_md]

ORU ran out of money, that is why they had to close.

 

[KnightDoc]

ORU ran out of money, that is why they had to close.

Very different then. I seriously wonder, under these circumstances, just how many and which schools would step up and take care of people, should the need arise, which would only serve to provide a safety net under people and encourage similar risky behavior in the future (i.e., no risk getting involved with a shady for-profit school like CNU, because I'll be okay no matter what happens to the school)?

I still honestly think, under these circumstances, that worst case, if they are not allowed to fix what is broken, that the for-profit will be allowed to wind down operations in such a way that no one is orphaned. Current students will all be stuck with CNU degrees, and that will serve as a cautionary tale for anyone enrolling in the next CNU, rather than improving whatever is deficient in an application and reapplying. I guess we'll see.

 

[ToliBro]

Very different then. I seriously wonder, under these circumstances, just how many and which schools would step up and take care of people, should the need arise, which would only serve to provide a safety net under people and encourage similar risky behavior in the future (i.e., no risk getting involved with a shady for-profit school like CNU, because I'll be okay no matter what happens to the school)?

There is such pressure for people to find acceptance to a USMD school that I very much doubt that seeing some people get burned would teach any sort of future lesson. There will always be thousands of students who want to be in California for medical school. I understand that, because my wife does for family reasons and was absolutely adamant that I apply to this school despite the risks until this information came out.

This is how Caribbean schools exist and fill despite how predatory they are. There will always be people with more desperation than sense.

 

[KnightDoc]

There is such pressure for people to find acceptance to a USMD school that I very much doubt that seeing some people get burned would teach any sort of future lesson. There will always be thousands of students who want to be in California for medical school. I understand that, because my wife does for family reasons and was absolutely adamant that I apply to this school despite the risks until this information came out.

This is how Caribbean schools exist and fill despite how predatory they are. There will always be people with more desperation than sense.

Excellent points, and you are probably correct, but this information is now giving you pause. Do you think future applicants would exercise the same caution with the next for-profit school with a provisional accreditation if things don't work for CNU and all of its students are absorbed by the other CA MD schools?

It's the very same moral hazard issue that regulators struggled with during the financial crisis -- allowing some institutions to fail to curtail risky behavior, and later realizing that the whole system would collapse if they allowed all troubled institutions to fail. So Lehman Brothers was allowed to go under, and then Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch got bailed out through takeovers orchestrated by the regulators.

Maybe the same thing happens here, and LCME finds someone to take the school over. Maybe they give the school a path to redemption, maybe they allow the school to wind down in an orderly manner that allows its current students to complete their degrees, and maybe they arrange for all of its students to end up in schools they could not get accepted to on their own.

The last alternative would actually result in the best outcome, by far, for current students, and would therefore set a terrible precedent for the future that would signal there are no risks at all for students applying to schools like CNU. I honestly do not think anyone wants to see CNU fail. Not its investors or management. Not the LCME. Not the students. And not the other medical schools, who would be faced with the choice of either taking the students in, or standing by and doing nothing while they get screwed over.

My sense is that the clowns running CNU underestimated LCME's commitment to enforcing its standards, and they will now be brought to heel, at the risk of losing their investment if they don't. It will also serve as an example for any for-profit in the future with respect to what they can get away with.

No one is going to be orphaned, but I also don't think CNU students are going to be transferring into Stanford anytime soon. I wouldn't be rushing to apply right now, but I also have a feeling someone will be found to take it over if current management refuses to conform to LCME standards, since there is clearly a need and there is clearly money to be made. Stay tuned!

 

[gyngyn]

In 2012, when San Juan Bautista lost their accreditation, some of their graduating seniors found schools to accept them into the last six months of school so that they would still be eligible for the Match. I believe Loma Linda took 15 of them.
I can still remember the flood of heart-wrenching letters we received from those poor seniors.

 

[jhmmd]

There is such pressure for people to find acceptance to a USMD school that I very much doubt that seeing some people get burned would teach any sort of future lesson. There will always be thousands of students who want to be in California for medical school. I understand that, because my wife does for family reasons and was absolutely adamant that I apply to this school despite the risks until this information came out.

This is how Caribbean schools exist and fill despite how predatory they are. There will always be people with more desperation than sense.

Unfortunately, that's just how the world works.

 

[Goro]

CBS Sacramento is also investigating whether CNU failed to inform the city of Sacramento and the Sacramento city council members that they failed to achieve full accreditation status following the March 2021 LCME site visit. This is crucial because the city of Sacramento may have approved their CNU medical campus project without knowing this information. In addition, the LCME accreditation body will "issue a decision on the school's appeal by March 1st".

CNU not being truthful? Who knew?????

I've been told that COCA would split up students to the other COMs if a DO school went belly up. It's never happened, so I don't know what it would look like.

I keep thinking about the CA students who turned their noses up at Western and Touro-CA, much less all the other western COMs, who wouldn't have to be sweating bullets right now. No gloating here...it's a sad situation for them

 

[ToliBro]

Excellent points, and you are probably correct, but this information is now giving you pause. Do you think future applicants would exercise the same caution with the next for-profit school with a provisional accreditation if things don't work for CNU and all of its students are absorbed by the other CA MD schools?

I'm a nontrad with a decade of work inside healthcare. I read about CNU and talked to my physician friends IRL, made up my mind that it was a horrible place to go for my future, and have spent a lot of time going over and over and over with my wife how going to school in Cali is pointless if it means getting stuck in outer bumf**k afterwards for residency. But the thing is, I've got that insider knowledge and have been able to talk to program directors or APDs. I know how the game is played. Someone can look at the match list for CNU and think that they can be the one person that beats the odds. But when you're being taught in a subpar manner, at a subpar school whose very name makes committees itch for the circular file... it is hard to beat the odds no matter how hard you want it or try.

Someone who doesn't have that knowledge might not know to listen when @Goro says that this juice is not worth the squeeze, and might just see "USMD" without understanding how the CNU USMD does not have the same weight as almost any other.

And, frankly, I don't think it will matter if an entire class gets forced out into the wilderness over this; people will put CNU on their match list as a safety school (thinking that THEY are too special to need it) and the ones that only get accepted there will be faced with an unpleasant decision. Thousands of applications flood most medical schools for dozens of slots. Cutting that number by half or three quarters would not stop a CNU 2.0 from filling. Caribbean schools have popped up like toadstool, after all.

 

[KnightDoc]

I'm a nontrad with a decade of work inside healthcare. I read about CNU and talked to my physician friends IRL, made up my mind that it was a horrible place to go for my future, and have spent a lot of time going over and over and over with my wife how going to school in Cali is pointless if it means getting stuck in outer bumf**k afterwards for residency. But the thing is, I've got that insider knowledge and have been able to talk to program directors or APDs. I know how the game is played. Someone can look at the match list for CNU and think that they can be the one person that beats the odds. But when you're being taught in a subpar manner, at a subpar school whose very name makes committees itch for the circular file... it is hard to beat the odds no matter how hard you want it or try.

Someone who doesn't have that knowledge might not know to listen when @Goro says that this juice is not worth the squeeze, and might just see "USMD" without understanding how the CNU USMD does not have the same weight as almost any other.

And, frankly, I don't think it will matter if an entire class gets forced out into the wilderness over this; people will put CNU on their match list as a safety school (thinking that THEY are too special to need it) and the ones that only get accepted there will be faced with an unpleasant decision. Thousands of applications flood most medical schools for dozens of slots. Cutting that number by half or three quarters would not stop a CNU 2.0 from filling. Caribbean schools have popped up like toadstool, after all.

Well said. That still doesn't mean the mainstream schools should, or, quite frankly, will, enable the bad conduct and act as de facto guarantors for people who fail to perform the required amount of due diligence before enrolling in medical school.

I went back and checked out the thread talking about how San Juan Bautista had its accreditation pulled a few years ago, as @gyngyn referenced above. They are the only school that this has apparently ever happened to, and even they regained their accreditation a few years later. Significantly, while @gyngyn referenced the flood of heart wrenching letters their school received, I didn't notice a mention of how many of those students were taken in by their school. My money is on zero.

You're right about there always being a market for a school like CNU. I just question whether there will always be a sanctuary outside the Caribbean for innocent students at sketchy institutions if those schools fail. CNU is not, after all, Oral Roberts. Totally different time, and totally different situation.

It looks a lot more like SJB, where it appears as though some of the students were indeed stuck in Puerto Rico without an ability to get licensed in the mainland US after they lost their accreditation. It seems as though, when LCME ultimately lowers the hammer, they really don't care who gets hurt, and innocent people potentially getting screwed over does not stop LCME from doing what they feel like they need to do to maintain the integrity of their process.

The only good news here is that, unlike in the SJB case, news of this issue has been disseminated well before the hammer might be dropped. If the school is allowed to stay open through 2024, people scheduled to graduate this year, next year, and maybe even in 2024 will be fine. That leaves a relatively small amount of people with potential issues if the worst happens and the school actually closes.

Anyone who enrolls while this is pending really does need to understand that there probably will not be anyone bailing them out on the back end. If there is any justice in the world, LCME will not allow them to enroll any future classes until this gets sorted out.

 

[Med Ed]

Significantly, while @gyngyn referenced the flood of heart wrenching letters their school received, I didn't notice a mention of how many of those students were taken in by their school. My money is on zero.

Oh be nice.

I happened across an interesting personal account of the journey from Oral Roberts to Loma Linda.

 

[KnightDoc]

Oh be nice.

I happened across an interesting personal account of the journey from Oral Roberts to Loma Linda.

With all due respect, it's not about nice or not nice. I was merely pointing out that while everyone in the space certainly feels bad for those negatively impacted, few have the ability, or, bottom line, interest in helping them out, so they really are on their own and should not be relying on a bailout from anyone.

It really is important for people to keep this in mind, since there actually is a SDN thread, TODAY, where people are expressing excitement about receiving IIs and As from this school.

Again, CNU is not Oral Roberts, and 2022 is not 1989. I think the SJB situation is more analogous to this one than Oral Roberts (since they both involve LCME pulling the plug as opposed to a school organically failing), and it seems as though at least some people were indeed orphaned in PR when SJB lost its accreditation, since LCME did not launch a massive operation to ensure everyone landed safely on their feet, and AAMC did nothing other than post a FAQ on its website. Hence the flood of heart wrenching letters at @gyngyn's school, with seemingly no response.

TBH, this school should have exactly zero applicants right now, instead of thousands of people closing their eyes, holding their noses, and planning on crying and pleading for help if things go south.

 

[Med Ed]

With all due respect, it's about nice or not nice. I was merely pointing out that while everyone in the space certainly feels bad for those negatively impacted, few have the ability, or, bottom line, interest in helping them out, so they really are on their own and should not be relying on a bailout from anyone.

No, you were calling out @gyngyn 's institution over something you have no apparent firsthand knowledge of. In other words, not being nice.

 

[Goro]

I'm a nontrad with a decade of work inside healthcare. I read about CNU and talked to my physician friends IRL, made up my mind that it was a horrible place to go for my future, and have spent a lot of time going over and over and over with my wife how going to school in Cali is pointless if it means getting stuck in outer bumf**k afterwards for residency. But the thing is, I've got that insider knowledge and have been able to talk to program directors or APDs. I know how the game is played. Someone can look at the match list for CNU and think that they can be the one person that beats the odds. But when you're being taught in a subpar manner, at a subpar school whose very name makes committees itch for the circular file... it is hard to beat the odds no matter how hard you want it or try.

Someone who doesn't have that knowledge might not know to listen when @Goro says that this juice is not worth the squeeze, and might just see "USMD" without understanding how the CNU USMD does not have the same weight as almost any other.

And, frankly, I don't think it will matter if an entire class gets forced out into the wilderness over this; people will put CNU on their match list as a safety school (thinking that THEY are too special to need it) and the ones that only get accepted there will be faced with an unpleasant decision. Thousands of applications flood most medical schools for dozens of slots. Cutting that number by half or three quarters would not stop a CNU 2.0 from filling. Caribbean schools have popped up like toadstool, after all.

CNU 2.0 on the US mainland is not likely; the LCME has learned its lesson.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Isn’t there another one already in California? Cal health sciences?

 

[KnightDoc]

No, you were calling out @gyngyn 's institution over something you have no apparent firsthand knowledge of. In other words, not being nice.

Okay. Agree to disagree. I did not intend to call out anyone. I was attempting to point out that help was not forthcoming, even from the sympathetic. Nothing more, nothing less.

And, of course, I have no first hand knowledge of what happened 10 years ago at an unnamed school. My inference came from the reference to the flood of letters, with no reference to the assistance provided.

Again, with all due respect, all of my posts have taken the position that it is unreasonable for any student to put themselves in this position, fail to conduct appropriate due diligence on a new for-profit that has some questionable business and recruiting practices, and then expect a bailout if the school later encounters issues with an accrediting body. I have not in any way criticized any school for failing to provide a bailout.

I honestly do not see what is "not nice" about that. It's a point I made 3 years ago when I first became active on SDN and knew next to nothing, but I could see CNU was bad news. I honestly take zero pleasure in any current student having any anxiety over their current situation. But I also think people need to accept responsibility for bad choices they make, and getting involved with CNU because people were hung up on a MD label as opposed to DO was an objectively bad choice, at the time, without the benefit of hindsight.

I REALLY hope things work out for all involved, but the fact that people smart enough to have discovered SDN are active applicants to this school, RIGHT NOW, shows that people still don't fully understand the bad outcomes possible on account of bad decisions. We are all free to make them, but no one has a right to be bailed out, and most school administrations will feel terrible, but will not lift a finger to help. This is not failing to be nice. This is a PSA to anyone considering CNU until the situation is resolved, one way or the other.

 

[jhmmd]

Isn’t there another one already in California? Cal health sciences?

You mean California University of Health Sciences?

 

[jhmmd]

Okay. Agree to disagree. I did not intend to call out anyone. I was attempting to point out that help was not forthcoming, even from the sympathetic. Nothing more, nothing less.

And, of course, I have no first hand knowledge of what happened 10 years ago at an unnamed school. My inference came from the reference to the flood of letters, with no reference to the assistance provided.

Again, with all due respect, all of my posts have taken the position that it is unreasonable for any student to put themselves in this position, fail to conduct appropriate due diligence on a new for-profit that has some questionable business and recruiting practices, and then expect a bailout if the school later encounters issues with an accrediting body. I have not in any way criticized any school for failing to provide a bailout.

I honestly do not see what is "not nice" about that. It's a point I made 3 years ago when I first became active on SDN and knew next to nothing, but I could see CNU was bad news. I honestly take zero pleasure in any current student having any anxiety over their current situation. But I also think people need to accept responsibility for bad choices they make, and getting involved with CNU because people were hung up on a MD label as opposed to DO was an objectively bad choice, at the time, without the benefit of hindsight.

I REALLY hope things work out for all involved, but the fact that people smart enough to have discovered SDN are active applicants to this school, RIGHT NOW, shows that people still don't fully understand the bad outcomes possible on account of bad decisions. We are all free to make them, but no one has a right to be bailed out, and most school administrations will feel terrible, but will not lift a finger to help. This is not failing to be nice. This is a PSA to anyone considering CNU until the situation is resolved, one way or the other.

You make a good point, but I fail to see how bad decisions = failing to be nice.

 

[KnightDoc]

You make a good point, but I fail to see how bad decisions = failing to be nice.

It doesn't. I guess I was less than articulate!

I was accused of not being nice because I supposedly called out @gyngyn's school for likely not taking in some SJB refugees in 2012, when I did not intend to do that at all. I was simply pointing out that while many schools received heart wrenching letters from students begging for help, very few schools were either able or willing to help.

Bad decisions without a guarantor providing a safety net could lead to very bad outcomes. My pointing out that sympathetic schools nonetheless provided no assistance was apparently not nice. Bad decisions have nothing to do with failing to be nice!

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

You mean California University of Health Sciences?

Yes, I think it has a relation to the founder of CNU but I might be confusing it with another school

 

[PleaseAcceptMe4]

If CNU's MD program is facing these issues, what about its Master's in Health Administration and other programs? Is it safe to say its a separate from its other programs or is this institution as a whole a suspicious opportunity?

 

[DOctorCAL1]

If CNU's MD program is facing these issues, what about its Master's in Health Administration and other programs? Is it safe to say its a separate from its other programs or is this institution as a whole a suspicious opportunity?

Not sure but I always get emails advertising those programs. Also, they just started their dental school this past spring or fall. I heard they plan to open a nursing school in the future also. I would avoid this school all together tbh. Their undergrad, post bacc, and MD programs are not great so that just shows.

 

[KnightDoc]

If CNU's MD program is facing these issues, what about its Master's in Health Administration and other programs? Is it safe to say its a separate from its other programs or is this institution as a whole a suspicious opportunity?

Separate but equal. LCME potentially pulling the accreditation of their MD program won't directly impact their MHA program, unless it causes them to shut the whole university down, but, seriously, with this cloud surrounding them, isn't there another MHA program to consider? I can't imagine a MHA from CNU has any great value in the marketplace under any circumstances.

 

[Goro]

Not sure but I always get emails advertising those programs. Also, they just started their dental school this past spring or fall. I heard they plan to open a nursing school in the future also. I would avoid this school all together tbh. Their undergrad, post bacc, and MD programs are not great so that just shows.

Their Pharmacy program is in big trouble, from what I hear.

 

[deleted1129181]

CNU 2.0 on the US mainland is not likely; the LCME has learned its lesson.

Are you saying Sarah Palin is trying to hoax LCME to open up a predatory med school in Alaska???? Let me guess, admission requirements will be “student shall have been married and pregnant at 16”?

 

[soporspelare]

CNU 2.0 on the US mainland is not likely; the LCME has learned its lesson.

What about the anti-trust case in 1996 against the ABA that resulted in the for-profit law school precedent that caused the LCME and COCA to initially loosen up on for-profit schools?

 

[jhmmd]

Maybe it's a funding issue

 

[Goro]

What about the anti-trust case in 1996 against the ABA that resulted in the for-profit law school precedent that caused the LCME and COCA to initially loosen up on for-profit schools?

I'm not a lawyer, and have never heard of this one.