Calling all you organic experts, i need your help

[shan1997]

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I am about to take organic I this summer and am really worried due to all the horror stories ihave heard about it. can anyone give me some advice on how to succeed in the class. What is it that i am going to have to master to do well out of the class? What kinds of things am i going to have to make sure i know and understand?( ex reactions). Any help would be greatly appreciated

shan1997🙂

 

[shan1997]

anyone out there???

 

[gramcracker]

Study your ass off?

Do as many problems sets as you can, make sure you've got everything memorized, and be confident.

 

[steve007]

it's all about memorizing. so, just start memorizing as soon as class starts.

 

[ericjames]

Hi. I was quite successful in my Organic classes and subsequently was a research fellow in the subject. I would focus on understanding the structure/function of molecules. There are a limited number of ways that molecules/atoms respond to their chemical environment - if you have those mastered you will be well suited to handle problems. I would also draw many structures and do many problems - spend at least the amount of time you spend in class out of class doing problems.

 

[shan1997]

thanks ericjames and the others for the responses. Does anyone have anymore to say or does that about cover it?

 

[uniqueseraph]

The memorizing approach is way more harder than if you try to understand the material. After a few chapters when it all comes together, it'll get hard to keep your reactions straight. Don't fall behind because it's really hard to cram for. Write down the mechanisms without looking at your book and see if you know what's going on. This can bail you out sometimes and practice lots of problems. The class itself wasn't hard in my opinion, rather the amount of material condensed. If you dedicate yourself to it, you'll pull through.🙂

 

[trojan horse]

Straight memorization of the material will set you up for a C in the course. It is not a method I would recommend You must understand the material, especially for organic I. The more problems you do, the easier it is to comprehend the reading. Be disciplined, it's really not that bad.

The best advice I receieved upon starting organic chemistry is that carbon is tetrahedral. Every carbon has four bonds.

Good luck! 😎

 

[farleyisgod]

I agree with the previous 2 posts.
Sure there's some memorization required, but the key is understanding mechanisms! Tricky profs might throw in a reaction that you've never seen. If you straight memorized the reactions, you'll be likely to miss the problem. If, however, you understand the mechanisms of the reactions, you'll be able to derive the product.

The difference between memorizing and understanding is a C and an A...

oh, and buy a molecule set - it helps when you're first starting to learn about enantiomers, etc.

🙂

edit: previous 3 posts

 

[Trizi]

Hey now, I mainly relied on memorization and did well in orgo. I made flash cards of rxns and put the mechanisms on the back. I agree that you should do lots of problem sets. How the tests are structured makes a difference when you choose which study method is best for you. Also, keep in mind that at many schools orgo is easier in the summer. A friend of mine could barely pull a C during the year and somehow pulled an A in the summer. She said herself it was much easier. If you can master the basics of orgo and understand how and why the molecules interact the way they do, it's probably much easier than all that memorization that I did. My teacher was really bad second semester and just wrote down reactions on the board, so my classmates and I found the only way to succeed on his tests was to memorize all of the reactions and mechanisms. If you are lucky your prof will be a lot better than mine was at explaining the basic stuff. It will help you tenfold on the MCAT to understand the concepts....memorization doesn't do much on the MCAT. Good luck!

 

[ASDIC]

MEMORIZATION...plain and simple!

 

[nirvana23]

ochem is a tricky subject... and let me throw in my 2 cents here b/c I have a grad degree in chemistry.


Memorization will get you a good grade, depending on where you take it. But, if you actually understand the concepts behind organic chemistry, then you will have to memorize very little, and all tests will be a breeze.

So my advice is to understand why and how organic chemistry works, and spend less time memorizing reagents, solvents, rxn conditions, etc...

It made my life much easier. 🙂

 

[An Yong]

1st semester of organic tends to be easier, as it includes a review of general chemistry (formal charges, hybridizations, etc) and by the end you'll only need to know a handful of reactions/mechanisms. Don't sweat 1st semester, it usually not too bad.

For me, 2nd semester was the killer, its here where the number of reactions/mechanisms you need to know skyrocket. Despite what people say, I honestly believed that straight memorization of reactions is the best way to go. Take time to understand mechanisms of course, but also make sure you can recall reactions without thinking too much. The reason I say this is because time is limited on a test, and since most professors include synthesis type problems on an exam, its best if you don't spend too much time on these type of problems. Having the ability to recall random reactions with all reagents/catalysts in an instant really cuts down the time needed to do a synthesis problem.

Anyways good luck with organic, its really not as bad as people say, don't get intimidated by this class.

L8er!

 

[tugo]

just remember this and you'll do fine:

it's carbo-CAT-ion, not carbo-ca-tion (carbo-ca-shun)

and PER-i-odic acid not peri-odic acid (as in sometimes an acid sometimes a base..)

😛

ok, all kidding aside, i agree w/ those who say to understand the rxns rather than straight memorization...problem w/ memorization is that you can't really apply it to other like situations because you don't have the understanding to take your knowledge and apply it...you're just regurgitating and that can hurt you on tests if the questions aren't exactly how you memorized them. oh, there WILL be some memorization required, but try to understand as much as you can. understand why a certain molecule will want to react w/ another...i guess always try and ask "why is that so?". actually i'd say that is a good mantra for all aspects of life...so therefore orgo is life...

 

[petersongator]

I took organic 1 over the summer in six weeks, and it was the best decision I made in undergrad. Since I wasn't taking any other classes, I was able to focus only on orgo and I learned a lot. I did well in the class too.

The basic thing you have to remember in any organic reaction is to watch where the electrons move. You can work out a reaction mechanism if you follow the basic rules of electron movement. Make sure you end up with the same number of electrons in the end as you have in the beginning, and follow the rules of electronegativity---you'll be able to get at least partial credit on any reaction you have to work through.

Memorization only takes you so far. In my experience, there is only one question at most that requires straight memorization. The rest of the test requires an understanding of how reactions work. The professor will give you a reaction that's similar to one that you learned in class, but you have to be able to recognize the similarities and adapt what you learned to the new problem. This is where experience with working problems comes into play. You HAVE to do all of the homework assigned in class. If you do, you'll do well in the class.

My school (UF) is known for its killer chem department, and I did well in both orgo 1 & 2 by working through tons of homework.

 

[nirvana23]

Originally posted by petersongator

The basic thing you have to remember in any organic reaction is to watch where the electrons move. You can work out a reaction mechanism if you follow the basic rules of electron movement. Make sure you end up with the same number of electrons in the end as you have in the beginning, and follow the rules of electronegativity---you'll be able to get at least partial credit on any reaction you have to work through.

Yes! It's all about electrons! This is sound advice.

If something has a positive charge, it will never attack anything (at least in sophmore orgo). And keep track of your charges. If your missing a charge, you probably did something wrong.

 

[TroutBum]

I agree, it's all about the electrons.

And, I agree with those who say it's NOT about memorization. This works for some, but you'll have a much better grasp of the material if you learn the basic principles of the reaction mechanisms--this is the only way you'll be able to handle completely new problems thrown at you, which is what will happen when you take the MCAT. Pure memorization is not going to do anything for you then.

I found the most helpful thing was to make sure to study a bit every day--this is not a course where you can expect to cram and do well. And, I didn't consider myself to be proficient in any reaction mechanism, until I could write it all out on a blank sheet of paper, from memory, from any starting point.

Orgo was my favorite science class, so I may have had less trouble putting in the time than others 😛

Good luck, and have fun!

 

[zinjanthropus]

i always felt that really understanding electronegativity and getting a feel for where electrons want to go seemed to be the key....noticing a particular reagent also helps.....if there's an acid an oxygen you can pretty much see where things are going, or if there is an oxidizing agent there are only so many things that can happen....you have to let the big picture come together in terms of electronegativity, resonance, inductive effects, and acidity and the rest will just flow

 

[steve007]

ok, to everyone pushing the "just understand it" approach, i have the following to say:

most of my tests involved 2 parts. one was a 15 step rxn or 2 w/ all products and intermediates filled in where you had to fill in all the reagents and solvents. the other was long synthesis problems. i really don't see what there was to "understand" about this, you either knew it or you didn't. yes, there were some "draw the mechanism" or "draw the resonance hybrids" type ?'s where you didn't need much memorization, but they were a much smaller part of the course i took. were your tests much different?

 

[mattorama]

Organic chem is nothing but memorization. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. While taking orgo I was fed up with the memorization and asked several chem profs about it. They agreed that it was all memorization and to just do it (same with biochem). Why do you think it takes so long for researchers to figure out new mechanisms? Shouldn't they just be able to plug two molecules into a computer that has been programmed with fundamental laws and have a mechanism pop out? That isn't how it works (I asked). It is an experimental science like bio...you won't deduce anything. If you want real deduction and almost no memorization, take some abstract algebra courses or other upper lvl math. All you will do in orgo is memorize reactions generalized to some chemical group reacting with some other chemical group. Every time you see those groups reacting you will do the same thing you memorized. Nothing more than that. Sure, the base molecules will be different, but that doesn't mean you are really deducing things...just reguritating the mechanisms.

I am convinced that there are only two subjects in college that require "understanding" to do anything: Math and Philosophy (not lower division stuff...)...everything else is just memorization. Yes engineers, as much as you would like to disagree, this means you too (I myself am a senior in engineering so I feel qualified to say).

All that being said, some of my favorite courses have been nothing but pure memorization (gross anatomy, neuroanatomy, physiology). All you will do in first two years of med school is memorize stuff. Consider Organic Chem a good place to practice.

 

[An Yong]

Originally posted by mattorama
Organic chem is nothing but memorization. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. While taking orgo I was fed up with the memorization and asked several chem profs about it. They agreed that it was all memorization and to just do it (same with biochem). Why do you think it takes so long for researchers to figure out new mechanisms? Shouldn't they just be able to plug two molecules into a computer that has been programmed with fundamental laws and have a mechanism pop out? That isn't how it works (I asked). It is an experimental science like bio...you won't deduce anything. If you want real deduction and almost no memorization, take some abstract algebra courses or other upper lvl math. All you will do in orgo is memorize reactions generalized to some chemical group reacting with some other chemical group. Every time you see those groups reacting you will do the same thing you memorized. Nothing more than that. Sure, the base molecules will be different, but that doesn't mean you are really deducing things...just reguritating the mechanisms.

I am convinced that there are only two subjects in college that require "understanding" to do anything: Math and Philosophy (not lower division stuff...)...everything else is just memorization. Yes engineers, as much as you would like to disagree, this means you too (I myself am a senior in engineering so I feel qualified to say).

All that being said, some of my favorite courses have been nothing but pure memorization (gross anatomy, neuroanatomy, physiology). All you will do in first two years of med school is memorize stuff. Consider Organic Chem a good place to practice.

I agree with the above poster:

Abstract Math = Lots of poofs! Often, creative "short cuts" need to be utilized in a problem on a test to correctly prove something. These "short cuts" are impossible to teach in class as many times they are different depending on the problem being asked. Sometimes I feel it takes clairvoyant powers to figure out these "short cuts", because its not something you can learn while doing many many problems. It takes deductive reasoning and often times creativity to solve these kinds of problems.

Not to say organic chemistry is any easier, in fact I felt it was one of my more challening courses, but in my class, deductive reasoning was not tested as it was in my abstract math courses. I've found that lots of studying, memorization of lots of facts about the characteristics of various reactions/atoms/molecules, is what it took to succeed. Hence, I was able to put in a lot of work and effort which empowered me to get a good grade. Contrast that with abstract math courses, where I put in just as much time, if not more than I did in organic and yet still not getting very good grades.

Anyways, find a way that works for you, but I sincerely believe that memorizing is what it will take for you to succeed.

 

[TroutBum]

Originally posted by steve007
ok, to everyone pushing the "just understand it" approach, i have the following to say:

most of my tests involved 2 parts. one was a 15 step rxn or 2 w/ all products and intermediates filled in where you had to fill in all the reagents and solvents. the other was long synthesis problems. i really don't see what there was to "understand" about this, you either knew it or you didn't. yes, there were some "draw the mechanism" or "draw the resonance hybrids" type ?'s where you didn't need much memorization, but they were a much smaller part of the course i took. were your tests much different?

Yes, there were a lot of synthesis problems. However, recognizing that 1, 5 carbonyls are the result of a Michael addition is the type of general principle that we needed to be familiar with. Nobody is claiming that there's no memorization. But, the idea was to do synthesis problems by recognizing the releveant reaction mechanisms at play, not by memorizing ofhundreds different reactions and then reproducing them.

We hardly did ANY problems filling in reagents and solvents. For us, it was the other way around--you end up with this product, with this added in and this added in in such and such steps. How did you get there? It required you to think through the reactions, not just memorize that adding SOCL2 gives you RCOCL, although you did need the basics memorized.

To mattorama, we're not solving the kinetics of new mechanisms here, we're talking about doing intro level Orgo.

But I agree when you say that you need to memorize the basics reactions generalized to some group reacting with another group. That's the whole trick to it. A lot of people try to memorize all the different possible reactions, without bothering to recognize the common features in any of them. For example, people might memorize "ketone plus hydroxyl yields secondary alcohol" without really knowing what's going on during the reaction--where the electrons go and why. That's what I'm talking about when I say you need to know the basics--for any reaction (brand new or not), knowing where the electrons go and why, and that involves a level of understanding beyond mere memorization, and I think it serves you better because then you can understand new reactions much better.

 

[steve007]

Originally posted by TroutBum
Yes, there were a lot of synthesis problems. However, recognizing that 1, 5 carbonyls are the result of a Michael addition is the type of general principle that we needed to be familiar with. Nobody is claiming that there's no memorization. But, the idea was to do synthesis problems by recognizing the releveant reaction mechanisms at play, not by memorizing ofhundreds different reactions and then reproducing them.

We hardly did ANY problems filling in reagents and solvents. For us, it was the other way around--you end up with this product, with this added in and this added in in such and such steps. How did you get there? It required you to think through the reactions, not just memorize that adding SOCL2 gives you RCOCL, although you did need the basics memorized.

To mattorama, we're not solving the kinetics of new mechanisms here, we're talking about doing intro level Orgo.

But I agree when you say that you need to memorize the basics reactions generalized to some group reacting with another group. That's the whole trick to it. A lot of people try to memorize all the different possible reactions, without bothering to recognize the common features in any of them. For example, people might memorize "ketone plus hydroxyl yields secondary alcohol" without really knowing what's going on during the reaction--where the electrons go and why. That's what I'm talking about when I say you need to know the basics--for any reaction (brand new or not), knowing where the electrons go and why, and that involves a level of understanding beyond mere memorization, and I think it serves you better because then you can understand new reactions much better.

i appreciate what you're saying, but it sounds like what you're saying boils down to "memorize the general cases and apply it to specifics." which is also the way i did it, but it sounds like you're classifying this as "understanding" while i would call it "memorizing." as for "where the electrons go, etc" i guess there's some understanding here, but i think in orgo 1 and 2 it's fairly trivial, not too helpful. to the OP, study 2 hrs. a day 5 days a week and more right b4 a test and you'll be cool if you're smart.

 

[brodaiga]

u want to succeed? Here's a big tip that my chem professors insist in all classes especially o-chem semester II,:

NOTECARDS

make note cards of reactions and anything u might need to know, this is more vital in semester II, but it will also help in section I.

And the key to getting a good grade?

PRACTICE

You might think u fully understand a concept, but you might be stuck on a question with a concept that you know. If you had practiced it beforehand, it would be much easier. Not only is organic difficult because of the memorization, but for me, it was only class I ever had where I was running out of time, a lot of students were not finishing the exams. Practice will let you work faster and therefore leave time to check for careless mistakes. (trust me, in orgo, they are so easy to make, lol)

 

[Bones99]

My first semester organic class was all brute-force memorization.

The second semester was another story though. As opposed to the first semester (where the exams were simply..."what are the products of this rxn" or "What reagent would you use here?") the exams were conceptually, more difficult. Therefore, the second semester required a greater understanding of the material (i.e. why can you not perform certain Friedal-Craft reactions on aromatic compounds with deactivating substituants). The exams had short answer sections, usually about 10 3-5 step mini synthesis ?'s, and a single 8-15 step synthesis question. So yes, you needed to memorize a lot of reagents, mechs, and reactions, but if you didn't know how to use them you were, for lack of better words, fu@ked. My school is known for having tough orgo profs (mostly Ivy, Stanford, and Caltech educated) so this could be a rarety, but I doubt it.

On a side note, I actually liked orgo and I have worked in a organic synthesis lab for the past three years. I was a hair away from going to grad school for organic until I realized that most of my co-workers would rather distill THF than talk to people. Not my style!!!

To all you future organic students....don't stress out too much. Just study hard and you'll be fine. Just look at organic chemistry as another hurdle to jump over before med school. Hey, you never know, you might ever find it interesting.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

I'm out like a fat kid in dodgeball.

-Bones


-------------------------------
Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, Class of 2007

 

[~EnnI~]

Originally posted by shan1997
I am about to take organic I this summer and am really worried due to all the horror stories ihave heard about it. can anyone give me some advice on how to succeed in the class. What is it that i am going to have to master to do well out of the class? What kinds of things am i going to have to make sure i know and understand?( ex reactions). Any help would be greatly appreciated

shan1997🙂

practice problems, practice problems, and more practice problems...the more you do it, the better you get...😉

 

[farleyisgod]

ya...
no matter which approach you take, doing practice problems is the key.

You can probably figure out whether you should be memorizing or understanding by asking your teacher or observing his/her teaching style.

or maybe I'm just delusional 😕

 

[gogiants]

understanding it is the ideal/memorizing it is often the reality. shoot for the ideal but don't be shocked if you sometimes end up just trying to cram it into your brain

 

[TroutBum]

Originally posted by steve007
i appreciate what you're saying, but it sounds like what you're saying boils down to "memorize the general cases and apply it to specifics." which is also the way i did it, but it sounds like you're classifying this as "understanding" while i would call it "memorizing." as for "where the electrons go, etc" i guess there's some understanding here, but i think in orgo 1 and 2 it's fairly trivial, not too helpful. to the OP, study 2 hrs. a day 5 days a week and more right b4 a test and you'll be cool if you're smart.

Yah, I think we are basically saying the same thing.

I agree with you though on the studying though. Practice and study every day to keep up, and the OP will be well served.

 

[YaFwiendToluene]

Originally posted by popeyepete
carbon is not always tetrahedral, nor does it always have four bonds...think about acetone (propanone) or many other structures that can have charges/lone pairs/double or tiple bonds..in these cases Carbon would not form a tetrahedron trojan...sorry to be an a$$, just didn't want the girl to go in on her first day and say that proudly and look like an idiot.

You might want to sit in class with her because you are completely wrong. Your case with acetone is incorrect, a double bond is considered to be "2" bonds. Draw the two Lewis Dot/resonance structures for acetone and you will understand this. You are right about the shape of the molecule though...acetone would probably look more like trigonal planar. The only time a carbon atom will not have 4 bonds is when it is a carbocation for .0000003 seconds....it's very unstable in that state....or..if it is involved in a weird situation with a highly electronegative atom like oxygen(carbon monoxide)..carbon usually TRIES TO stick to covalency though.

I really have a disdain for you showoff SND premeds....please think before you say something. Stop strying to scare new students.

Organic 1 was relatively easy...the first half is simple nomenclature..the second half is your basic reactions(Sn1, Sn2, E1, E2) Not really difficult. The summer will be intense though..so just keep practicing and you should be fine. I really dont recommend organic 2 for the summer though..unless you just have to. The worst thing you could do is come here and let these premeds scare you and tell you that it's an impossible course....it's very doable..so keep your head up........it's easier than Gen Chem.

Cya

 

[Firebird]

Because everyone here is being incredibly long winded and over complicating things, I am going to present to you Firebird's Top Ten Things To Do To Get an A in Organic Chemistry

• Study a little every day and read the pertinent parts of the chapters.
• Study all day three days up until the test.
• Don't let terms confuse you. Get INCREDIBLY comfortable with terms like nucleophile, electrophile, nucleophilic attack, etc.
• The single most important thing: Partial or full negative charges attack partial or full positive charges. Remember this!!!
• Do every single practice problem at least twice.
• Find a test from the professor's previous class. This will give you not only more practice problems, but also it will aquaint you with the level of difficulty of an exam.
• Organic is not about either memorizing or understanding the material. It's about doing both and being able to apply them to novel situations. Try to think of different synthetic schemes a professor might use.
• If there's an attached -R group to a molecule(e.g. like a six membered ring), it probably means nothing about reactivity (only specificity or conformations).
• Think from the professor's perspective. What will be worth putting on an exam? There's not enough time to cover everything on an hour exam, so figure out yourself (this will take a couple of tests to figure out) what kind of questions s/he likes and what type of material s/he will put on there.
• Don't freak out during the test.

Do this, and I am sure you will do well in the class.

 

[ironey]

A whole-hearter agreement with the above post: OChem - like any other class - is part memorization part conceptual.

I found that the periodic (thats peri-odic) table was my best friend. Always keep in mind what the individual atoms are contributing to the overall stucture of each compound. Are they part/whole negative or positive? How does that particular combination of atoms compare to other combinations within the same family?

My advice: memorize the concepts, practice applying them, be familiar with the terms. In my opinion, a good prof is going to make you regurigitate a few mechanisms, so be sure to learn those as well (they'll be helpful later on).

 

[farleyisgod]

Originally posted by Firebird
Try to think of different synthetic schemes a professor might use.

This, my friend, is impossible 🙂

...but definitely a good top 10 list.

 

[Emann8]

The key is to practice e-v-e-r-y-d-a-y! Summer courses are easier b/c you are forced to A. study pretty much everyday and B.you are allowed to focus on just one course. If you can't commit at least 1 hour every day w/ whatever strategy (conceptual or memorizing) you'll probably get a C.

Also it really does matter who's teaching the course and old exams should really guide how you study, if you can get a hold of them. Otherwise look for OCHM tutors or review sessions that are popular at your school. We had two tutors that were great. The cost was $10/ session (usually one or two per week 3-4 the week of the exams) but I wonder what I'd do w/o them. I'm glad my OCHM is over with.

PS if you have to take the National exam for OCHM make sure you practice multiple choice type questions and not wait till the week before the exam to send out for the National exam guide which is available for a couple of bucks.

 

[Firebird]

Originally posted by escapist
This, my friend, is impossible 🙂

Yes, figuring out synthetic schemes prior to the exam may be difficult, but not impossible...I know because I did it. Some things just flow together and make sense to be steps in synthesis.

For example, you know that if you want to perform a substitution without inversion, but you want to go through an SN1 pathway, you can just do two SN1's.

I'm not saying you can figure out the whole scheme beforehand...but you can figure out parts of each scheme that will be helpful during the test.

Originally posted by Emann8Otherwise look for OCHM tutors or review sessions that are popular at your school. We had two tutors that were great. The cost was $10/ session (usually one or two per week 3-4 the week of the exams)

Excellent ideas. At our school, tutors were free for two sessions a week. Perhaps other universities have similar policies for free tutors.