Can anyone tell me the difference in MD and MBBS?

[seasurfer]

Is there any different in the training provided by a MD and MBBS course? Which graduates are more equiped, MD or MBBS? Why a MD only need 2 years of clinical training whereas a MBBS need 3 years of clinical training?

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[leorl]

Hiya,

In the US, the graduates earn MD's - medical school is a postgraduate course.

In the UK/AUS/Ireland/pretty much everywhere else, you earn an MBBS - bachelor of medicine and BS. Actually in ireland and elsewhere, you could also earn an BMBChBAO - bachelor of medicine, surgery and obstetrics. This is because outside the US, medicine is an UNDERGRADUATE degree and so Bachelor's degrees are conferred.

These are differences in naming only. They are all equivalent. A US MD = MBBS = BMBChBAO. If you are a US graduate earning a foreign degree (MBBS), you are allowed to come back to the US and use MD as your title. There is no difference in standard or education, really (but that goes into the location of your education).

However, to further confuse things, an MD can be given as a postgraduate degree to a UK/elsewhere medical graduate who has gone on to specialize in certain fields. Someone please clarify this because my knowledge here is rather limited. An MD in the UK is not the same thing as an MD in the US.

In the US, an MD is a four-year degree. i'm not sure how long an MD course in the UK takes. an MBBS I thought usually takes 3-6 years, depending on whether a "degree" is conferred following pre-clinical years in the UK system.

 

[Badkarma25]

As Leorl stated, a UK MD degree is not at all like a U.S. or Canadian MD.

In the UK, MD degrees are granted to those individuals who already the MBBS or some other undergraduate medicine qualification (ie are already practising doctors). This is a research degree, much like a PhD.

People mainly pursue these degrees in order to become more of an expert in a certain area so that they might be able to secure a prestigious fellowship or academic posting, or to obtain a coveted training spot in a competitive area (ie cardiothoracic surgery or plastics).

The MD is usually done full-time and from what I've seen, takes around 1-2 years.

 

[BellKicker]

Adding to what Leorl and badkarma said,

there are tons of degrees in different countries. I can think of 4 different ones in the 3 Scandinavian countries and Germany and if I knew of more, they would be different, too. The reason y'all don't see these degrees in international journals is that we translate them to MD in English.

Badkarmas description of the MD is right. It's called DM in some countries and even between the countries with post-doc MD degrees there are variations in what the degree really means. I know that you can get it in Germany in just a few months, for example.

It's all very confusing. Maybe in 10 years it'll all be called MD and PhD, who knows.

Later.

 

[seasurfer]

Thanks for all the infomation.

 

[The Pill Counter]

Some even think that the US and Canada calling there primary medical qualification an MD, postgraduate or not, is pretty out of line. Regardless of having a prior degree or not, there is no original work involved in a medical degree, so a 'doctorate' is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Badkarma25]

I don't think it's so out of line for Canadian and U.S. schools to call their degrees MD...while there is no 'original' work that culminates in the degree, that fact is widely known and no one tries to pass it off as some sort of original research. It's all undergraduate medicine, and that degree alone no matter where you get it does not entitle you to practice without further training. But the doctor term isn't that far off; it is given to individuals who have mastered a large body of knowledge and acquired specific technical skills.

The scary part is how quacks like chiropractors and naturopaths are called doctor. It gives them an aura of credibility they and their fields don't really deserve.

 

[A_Shah]

Just to make it clear:

MBBS stands for Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery

MBBS=US MD's

 

[Stephen Ewen]

If you intend to get an MB BS and then come back to the US to practice medicine, the difference is that an MB BS (its variants, too) uses MB BS (its variants, too) to describe the medical degree you need before writing the USMLEs, and the MD uses MD to describe the medical degree before you write the USMLEs. 😀

But seriously that is not far from the core stuff you need to know. HOWEVER, MOST MB BS programs do not require a BA or BS before entering them and some states require the BA or BS (some MCATS too). If you entered an MB BS (its variants, too) under such terms, I am not sure how that works out if you only have an MB BS (its variants, too); so, research it out--and post what you find. 🙂

This is all that is MOST relevant for a person with these ends in mind, though also relevant I think is that 5.5 or more year med degrees (as MB BSs [its variants, too] typically are--some are not), or anytime you can spread out med school like that, it is a very good idea for many reasons.

 

[A_Shah]

In India they award the MBBS degree. I have lived there for 10 years and this is what i know.

MBBS= 5 year program, no undergrad degree required BUT 11-12 grade in India includes everything learned during freshmen and sophomore year at a US university.

I know this because I have done high school in India, and a US undergraduate degree. (Michigan State, check profile and my website for more info)

Although, some schools in India require a (MCAT type) entrance exam. All schools require a very high % points from the 12 grade. It is so scary because almost all these people are in the 90th percentile or above. Below this you cannot get accepted to a med school in INDIA. Unless you are from a lower class, the government has a # of seats for them.

In short, they get to skip the MCAT and BS, but they have to go through similar stuff. I would rather go through the whole MD process (even if i did not do so hot on the MCAT)!

US MD's= I think they are the most well rounded physicians in the world. Most of them have multiple talents and are more mature than their counterparts.

 

[Vindaloo]

I'd like to comment on the misconception of the MBBS degree. Everything mentioned so far has been correct, but often times Americans (I am one) make the assumption that people who enter MBBS degree programs are "straight out of high school". This is not the case.

Perhaps in age, but not in knowledge. Here (in Britain) you go to college before university. College is a time where you study a handful of subjects and you master it. These are called A levels. You have to know early in life you want to be a medic, unlike in the US. The Britons reading the board can correct me if I am wrong.

Anyhow my point is, when they begin medical school they are all very well versed in what we Americans call "premed" courses. In other words, they've all had O-Chem, G-Chem, Biochem, Bio, Physics, Stats, etc... I would say that my classmates are the equivalent of 2nd or 3rd year university students in the US, except they didn't have to take the required liberal arts classes that i slept through in undergrad (music appreciation, western civ, political science, etc...)

So the only thing they lack at the age of 18 when beginning medical school is life experience, and for some, maturity. But they all gain those with time like I and everyone else did.

Another way to look at it is an American straight out of high school and AP Biology would have a VERY difficult time with the MBBS program because they have not had the premed courses that you normally get your first two/three years at University.

Hope this helps!

 

[LJoo83]

Thanks guys. Your information helped immensely;
I went to England for a few weeks back around this time last year and absolutley fell in love with the country, its culture, it's beautiful preservation of history...

I was looking around at schools in the U.K seeing how their medical process worked and I left more confused then when I started. But after everyone's descriptions, it seems as though it's much easier for me personally to go through the M.D. program here in the U.S.

Oh well. I'll save England for those annual vacations 🙂 (it's a joke cause I certainly don't have any money!)

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Kind of off topic but interesting... I met a kid at a medical conference who will be graduating from med school in a month or two... When he starts residency, he will be 22 years old. He is in a 6 year BA/MD program. I guess these programs are similar to the MBBS degrees in the sense that this kid earned his undergrad/doctorate in 6 years.

The summer when I was 22, I was pounding beers at the beach and going to all night tiki parties. This guy will be putting in lines, and changing colostomy bags. That is some kraaaazy shizznit.

 

[13538]

Originally posted by Celiac Plexus
Kind of off topic but interesting... I met a kid at a medical conference who will be graduating from med school in a month or two... When he starts residency, he will be 22 years old. He is in a 6 year BA/MD program. I guess these programs are similar to the MBBS degrees in the sense that this kid earned his undergrad/doctorate in 6 years.

22?! So he start the BA/MD programme at 16? His name isn't Dougie Howser by any chance? 😉

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by Vindaloo
These are called A levels. You have to know early in life you want to be a medic, unlike in the US. The Britons reading the board can correct me if I am wrong.

Anyhow my point is, when they begin medical school they are all very well versed in what we Americans call "premed" courses. In other words, they've all had O-Chem, G-Chem, Biochem, Bio, Physics, Stats, etc...

...which also means that, at age 20, if you realize engineering isn't for you, you're out of luck in the UK, India, Nigeria, or any other countries that use the UK model. There are always exceptions, but the rule is, the longer you are out, the less likely you will get in. Was it the UK where you lose 5 percentage points per year, after completing your A levels? It was either there or India, where, even if you ACE your entrance exams, you lose the points right off. Daunting.

By the way, do the Americans know that it is free to go to med school in the UK?

Likewise, I have never yet met a med student from the UK who did not take Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Math for their A levels - not one single person. As I said above, there are exceptions, but they are rare. These people that do 5 (or more) A levels exist, but they, too, are rare.

Each side has its merits, but, had I gone to school in the UK, I would not have my military bearing that I have from military college, and would not speak French (which helps), at minimum. The time I had out of school matured me. It's a bummer that I'm older, but, oh well.

 

[Vindaloo]

you definitely raise the same points i think about when i'm here. I'm the average age of a US medical student and I feel like grandpa. But one thing you should all consider is this: in the US most of us pay an incredible amount to go to medical school ($50K/year) as opposed to here in the Uk (about $5000/year). So in the end we Americans have this huge debt and thus are locked into practicing medicine because most of us will never be able to pay it back otherwise. Also, we are older and less likely to be change careers.

Coupled together, this locks us into medicine whether we like it or not. However if you finish earlier with little or no debt (like the British) you can walk away more easily and change careers.

All of this is just my quiet observations but as for maturity, I would have to say the majority are more mature than the average american of the same age. For example, just being here I see a lot of 18, 19, 20, etc year old American exchange students who are VERY immature compared to my British classmates who are the same age. Its simply a different culture here.

also, many of them speak multiple languages as well. Several know how to speak Latin which helps them (and me) in anatomy and most speak another language other than english -- french, german, spanish, farsi, etc. I took five years of french myself and have forgotten everything! if you don't use it, you lose it.

and one last thing: from what i can tell both the american and british medical systems converge. By this I mean we go to undergrad, take time off or not, go to medical school, residency, etc... and are attendings by our mid 30's to early 40's.

In the UK, they finish at an earlier age but their residencies are longer (but they don't average the ridiculous hours we have in residency, averaging 40-60). Most work as GP's for a while then specialize and then become consultants in the their mid 30's to early 40's as well.

So both systems seem to converge at around a similar age -- mid 30's or so where both reach the level of attending/consultant.

 

[leorl]

just to add - Americans choosing to go the UK route (or european route) won't get off with paying 0 or like ?5000 / year unless somehow you can claim european/UK citizenship and residency. However, tuition still ends up being quite a bit cheaper than in the US, so you do save a bit. But we don't get to take advantage of the free socialized system 🙂.

And another thing- they may seem locked in to medicine without having the certainty of knowing they want to do medicine for the rest of their lives. That is a drawback, but it's not an end-all. They can switch degrees in university, but that usually means starting all over again from 1st year, and may entail having to pay fees/tuition for a couple years (which many of them can't really afford). It's not like US undergrad where you can switch majors umpteen million times and still graduate in four years.

 

[13538]

Originally posted by Vindaloo

In the UK, they finish at an earlier age but their residencies are longer (but they don't average the ridiculous hours we have in residency, averaging 40-60). Most work as GP's for a while then specialize and then become consultants in the their mid 30's to early 40's as well.

The first year of a British/Irish residency is known as the intern year and is common to everyone. You do 6 months medicine and 6 months surgery and it is a *very* stressful year - the typical intern works 80-100 hours a week. Although the EU want to change this and make interns work a 40 hour week and spread the internship over 2 years!!

Most medical graduates don't work as GPs... If you want to become a hospital consultant you'd need to join a training programme for your particular specialty and work your way up to registrar, specialist registrar and pass the Royal College exams for your particular specialty before you can become a consultant. There is a separate training programme for GPs with Royal College exams etc...

The only reason there is convergence of the US and British/Irish systems is that there are bottle-necks in the British/Irish system and many would-be consultants take time out to complete an MD or an MCh (Masters in Surgery - research degree similar to MD except for surgical specialties) or work abroad for a while in order to improve their CV, before taking up a consultant post.

 

[roo]

In Ireland, it comes up for discussion at the society meetings every once in a while, whether to change the primary degree from MBBChBAO to MD, since Ireland is closer to Boston than Berlin.

It always gets tossed out though in favor of tradition. There has been a few hundred years of medical education and nomenclature things like the degree title don't want to be changed by the majority in the society.

Trinners: Shorter workweek for interns starts this July. Surgery residents don't know what they are going to do to get in all the theatre time that they want.

Best wishes,
roo

 

[MPS]

Originally posted by roo
In Ireland, it comes up for discussion at the society meetings every once in a while, whether to change the primary degree from MBBChBAO to MD, since Ireland is closer to Boston than Berlin.

Given the recommendations of the Flexner report, then this is surely a non-sequitur (i.e. as regards medical degrees, Boston is modelled on Berlin).

 

[roo]

Originally posted by MPS
Given the recommendations of the Flexner report, then this is surely a non-sequitur (i.e. as regards medical degrees, Boston is modelled on Berlin).

"closer to Boston than Berlin" is an expression used in Ireland. It means that Ireland is closer to USA than to continental Europe in many things because of a more common culture, language, and family ties.

Best wishes,
roo

 

[MPS]

Originally posted by roo
"closer to Boston than Berlin" is an expression used in Ireland. It means that Ireland is closer to USA than to continental Europe in many things because of a more common culture, language, and family ties.

Best wishes,
roo

Sure, I got the allusion. I was just being pedantic. Sorry.

Yours,

MPS

 

[miscalculated]

I suppose strictly speaking, those of us studying for MBBS do not have the right to call ourselves doctors once we graduate because our degree is not a doctorate... Anyone know anything about the history of the MBBS degree title and why it wasn?t decided to call it doctor of medicine, like in the US?

 

[MPS]

Miscalculated,

The "doctor" title was originally awarded to physicians who had undertaken MD degrees; thus medics carry the title "doctor" for historical reasons. The MD is almost as old as the Universities themselves, so for example Oxford and Cambridge awarded them soon after their foundation. The MB degree is just as old; however, it only required 7 years of study in the 15th century, whilst an MD took 10 years. The BS/BCh/BChir portion was added when surgery was incorporated into the medical curriculum (which in the UK first occurred in Edinburgh). The MD has remained a higher degree in the UK.

The Flexner report in the US recommended a German-based training system and that all medical schools grant the MD degree, hence the difference.

 

[miscalculated]

cheers MPS.

btw, I can't help but think of "Medical Protection Society" when I see your name 🙂

 

[PatriciaNg]

If I get a MD from the US, is it possible to practice in Hong Kong? What are the procedures?