Can properly written personal statements and secondaries make up for other deficiencies?

[mrh125]

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Like if you have really stellar and meaningful personal statements and secondaries that are polished, tie your life and ambitions together into a lucid narrative, and are properly edited will that make a huge difference and could it make up for something like a lower mcat score assuming your app has one weakness like that? Honestly, i'm not even sure if some adcoms read PSes if your scores in a certain aspect are lower than they want.

 

[BillrothI]

Probably not. An extremely strong PS might help a borderline applicant, but it is very rarely a game-changer.

-Bill

 

[medschoolmyname]

@Billroth do u really think so? im not saying a PS will make for poor stats, but as long as your not prescreened it can most certainly help.

 

[BillrothI]

@Billroth do u really think so? im not saying a PS will make for poor stats, but as long as your not prescreened it can most certainly help.

According to LizzyM, a PS rarely makes a major difference. There was a thread about this last application cycle, but IIRC she said that she only saw a handful of personal statements that bumped an applicant up from "reject" to "interview" or from "interview" to "accept."

-Bill

 

[medschoolmyname]

According to LizzyM, a PS rarely makes a major difference. There was a thread about this last application cycle, but IIRC she said that she only saw a handful of personal statements that bumped an applicant up from "reject" to "interview" or from "interview" to "accept."

-Bill

wow, does that also apply to secondaries?

 

[lmn]

Yes they can

 

[BillrothI]

wow, does that also apply to secondaries?

I couldn't say. Maybe someone can dig up the thread? I would imagine it behooves applicants to put their best foot forward when it comes to both the PS and the secondary. However, I have a hunch that GPA, MCAT, ECs, and LORs are way above the PS and secondary statements in the hierarchy of admissions criteria.

-Bill

 

[mrh125]

I couldn't say. Maybe someone can dig up the thread? I would imagine it behooves applicants to put their best foot forward when it comes to both the PS and the secondary. However, I have a hunch that GPA, MCAT, ECs, and LORs are way above the PS and secondary statements in the hierarchy of admissions criteria.

-Bill

thanks for all the information. hmm, well in that case what about stellar LORs making up for a low/borderline mcat?

 

[medschoolmyname]

I couldn't say. Maybe someone can dig up the thread? I would imagine it behooves applicants to put their best foot forward when it comes to both the PS and the secondary. However, I have a hunch that GPA, MCAT, ECs, and LORs are way above the PS and secondary statements in the hierarchy of admissions criteria.

-Bill

interesting, maybe we can ask @LizzyM . we were wondering based on your opinion do PS and secondaries not really make much of a difference when compared to the other deciding factors? ill try to see if i can dig up that thread

 

[mrh125]

interesting, maybe we can ask @LizzyM . we were wondering based on your opinion do PS and secondaries not really make much of a difference when compared to the other deciding factors? ill try to see if i can dig up that thread

Great idea. My thoughts on that matter are that PS and secondaries can make a difference if done well enough, but depending on how rare this is (it could be 20/10,000 applicants) could depend on a lot of different things. For example, a lot of personal statements are really similar, there may be a lot of mediocre ones, poorly-written ones, and ones with grammatical errors. Not to mention a really exceptional one may have the same reasons as less exceptional ones as the main reasons most people want to be a doctor have very common themes. If things like that always made a difference or commonly did, they'd be emphasized differently. Being left high and dry because you miss one thing isn't fair. In life you can't really have everything. You just make the most of what is there.

 

[medschoolmyname]

Great idea. My thoughts on that matter are that PS and secondaries can make a difference if done well enough, but depending on how rare this is (it could be 20/10,000 applicants) could depend on a lot of different things. For example, a lot of personal statements are really similar, there may be a lot of mediocre ones, poorly-written ones, and ones with grammatical errors. Not to mention a really exceptional one may have the same reasons as less exceptional ones as the main reasons most people want to be a doctor have very common themes. If things like that always made a difference or commonly did, they'd be emphasized differently.

lol kind of makes me feel like its a slap in the face to be honest. i mean it feels like that (unless for an exceptional few) that the PS and secondaries can only hurt you or do nothing for you no luck finding the thread but ill keep looking, ie really speaks to the idea that many secondaries are just sent as a way for med schools to make money.

 

[mrh125]

lol kind of makes me feel like its a slap in the face to be honest. i mean it feels like that (unless for an exceptional few) that the PS and secondaries can only hurt you or do nothing for you no luck finding the thread but ill keep looking, ie really speaks to the idea that many secondaries are just sent as a way for med schools to make money.

Agreed. I'm still putting the most possible effort I can into them because that's the person I am and I really am in a precarious situation with my low mcat even though the rest of my application is good. It really frustrates me, especially since i may be paying schools $100-250 for them to just toss my application regardless of how much effort I put into other aspects. I'm a huge proponent of recognizing that there should be multiple ways for one to prove themselves.

 

[medschoolmyname]

Agreed. I'm still putting the most possible effort I can into them because that's the person I am and I really am in a precarious situation with my low mcat even though the rest of my application is good. It really frustrates me, especially since i may be paying schools $100-250 for them to just toss my application regardless of how much effort I put into other aspects. I'm a huge proponent of recognizing that there should be multiple ways for one to prove themselves.

all u and everyone else can do is our best i guess

 

[NickNaylor]

I think a secondary is more likely to be helpful than a PS simply because a secondary might allow you to provide information relevant for a specific school. If you make a particularly strong case for why you should be at a school or provide some information that makes adcoms more strongly believe that you'd be a good addition to their incoming class, then they might send you in an invite when you were otherwise a maybe yes/maybe no type of applicant.

The thing is that the PS that is very well done is rare. Same goes for secondaries. Despite how unique and awesome you think your PS is, in 99/100 cases it sounds pretty damn similar to the hundreds of other PSs adcoms have already read.

So, in the very unlikely chance that you happen to write an extraordinarily well-done PS/secondaries, sure, it might give you a bit of an edge. But even then, those responses will not turn a weak or deficient applicant into a competitive one. A set of essays that you sat down to write one day is difficult to rate higher in importance than your 3+ years of undergraduate performance.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

I would guess that the Work/Activities has more of a "make-up" effect than the PS statement does. I think if you have low stats you just can't afford to not have a perfect personal statement. Just how I imagine it...

 

[masaraksh]

I think what @LizzyM said makes sense:
- GPA/MCAT are a way to filter for people who study hard, work hard, and plan ahead.
- experiences/activities tell them about who you are
- so ultimately the PS becomes less of a big deal

 

[deleted480308]

a PS is like the toppings on a hamburger.....it doesn't matter how good they are if the meat is rancid, but they can make an average burger tolerable

 

[Omppu27]

Might be able to heal the hurting, but it can't save the dead.

I think that's the right expression...

 

[jm192]

"Can it?" as in has it ever happened--absolutely.

But generally speaking--it's not going to be the x factor. My pre-med advisor (and certainly countless others) preach that Adcoms look at everything. Well of course they do. But just because they look at it doesn't mean all things matter the same.

Your MCAT and GPA will always weigh heavily. If volunteering was on equal footing--we'd all volunteer whatever the magical number of hours is to get accepted.

From Adcoms and residency directors I've spoken with--the personal statement rarely helps an application. The main thing is to avoid hurting yourself through it.

I certainly appreciate the sense of "Give your best effort in everything you do." And I think regardless of the feedback you receive in this thread you should strive for a great personal statement.

That said, at some point, you've just got to get submitted--and as I said earlier it probably isn't going to make a huge difference. Getting submitted early is probably more valuable than delaying and HOPING to have a great PS.

 

[Goro]

A compelling life story and great ECs can definitely help, but it has to be backed up by proof that you can handle medical school. Someone with a 2.9 cGPA can indeed get into Case or Vanderbilt, but that's because the person has a 4.0 in an SMP, or the last two years of UG.

Med schools do no favors by admitting people who can't handle the curriculum.

But just a great PS? No.

Like if you have really stellar and meaningful personal statements and secondaries that are polished, tie your life and ambitions together into a lucid narrative, and are properly edited will that make a huge difference and could it make up for something like a lower mcat score assuming your app has one weakness like that? Honestly, i'm not even sure if some adcoms read PSes if your scores in a certain aspect are lower than they want.

Absolutely not. I've seen LORs from US Senators and Nobel Laureates. They're not going to help a poor candidate.
thanks for all the information. hmm, well in that case what about stellar LORs making up for a low/borderline mcat?

 

[kthxbai]

I would imagine your PS would go a great deal to enhance your application, but only to make your already solid achievements stand out.

While being a good writer is the cherry, it won't do you any good without the cake.

 

[medschoolmyname]

Yeah I thought so, Thanks for your insight guys and gals.

 

[lmn]

Yeah I thought so, Thanks for your insight guys and gals.

It really depends on what you are talking about, a PS/Secondaries/LOR's/EC's aren't going to perform miracles - if your gpa is 2.0 and mcat a 23, no medical school is going to believe that you are going to be able to handle the academic rigors of medical school. Now if you are talking about a 3.5 gpa with a 29 mcat, ya your mcat is low for nearly every medical school out there (MD), but strong PS/Secondaries/LOR's/EC's may be able to tip you into that interview invite pool at schools where you maybe wouldn't have receive an ii if not for the additional materials.

 

[GypsyHummus]

A compelling life story and great ECs can definitely help, but it has to be backed up by proof that you can handle medical school. Someone with a 2.9 cGPA can indeed get into Case or Vanderbilt, but that's because the person has a 4.0 in an SMP, or the last two years of UG.

Med schools do no favors by admitting people who can't handle the curriculum.

But just a great PS? No.



Absolutely not. I've seen LORs from US Senators and Nobel Laureates. They're not going to help a poor candidate.
thanks for all the information. hmm, well in that case what about stellar LORs making up for a low/borderline mcat?

How often do you see a LOR biting a person in in the rear during the app season? It seems at this point all a LOR can do for you is tank an app.

 

[medschoolmyname]

How often do you see a LOR biting a person in in the rear during the app season? It seems at this point all a LOR can do for you is tank an app.

That's kind of what everything does. I mean GPA and mcat establish u, but everything else feels like it can only harm u with little possibility of helping. Don't get me wrong because it can harm we have to do our best, but it would be nice if the opposite were true.

 

[Goro]

I see one maybe once an app cycle for people I interview. I think over the past cycle, maybe 3-4 at most for all the candidates we discussed at our AdCom meetings.

So, they're rare.

How often do you see a LOR biting a person in in the rear during the app season? It seems at this point all a LOR can do for you is tank an app.

 

[kthxbai]

A question for Goro,

I see one maybe once an app cycle for people I interview. I think over the past cycle, maybe 3-4 at most for all the candidates we discussed at our AdCom meetings.

So, they're rare.

A question for you, Goro:

In your experience, how often does a well-written PS influence adcomms to invite an applicant for an interview?

Thanks!

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I'm gonna throw this out there and probably get blasted for it....

But...OP...even if an amazing personal statement CAN make a tremendous difference - based on the multiple writing and theme samples you've posted here...yours won't.

 

[Goro]

Well, my school doesn't pre-screen, so a PS wouldn't have any influence on our wily old Admissions Dean. However, in Adcom meetings, an interviewer sometimes mentions that the candidate "wrote a beautiful essay". So, it's one of those factors that might salvage a marginal candidate from wait-list to accept.

If eyeballs are looking over apps at the pre-II phase, a really good essay might get something into the "consider invite" pile, but as mentioned above, it's not going to help someone with poor numbers.

A question for Goro,

A question for you, Goro:

In your experience, how often does a well-written PS influence adcomms to invite an applicant for an interview?

Thanks!

 

[medschoolmyname]

I'm gonna throw this out there and probably get blasted for it....

But...OP...even if an amazing personal statement CAN make a tremendous difference - based on the multiple writing and theme samples you've posted here...yours won't.

Not trying to put u on blast but op didn't post writing/theme samples.

@Goro we understand that poor stats trump everything, but can u talk about an applicant whose stats are good enough for the school and effects the PS and secondary and other app material have. Like if an applicant is borderline, in your experience do those materials often make the applicant or break them?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Not trying to put u on blast but op didn't post writing/theme samples.

@Goro we understand that poor stats trump everything, but can u talk about an applicant whose stats are good enough for the school and effects the PS and secondary and other app material have. Like if an applicant is borderline, in your experience do those materials often make the applicant or break them?

OP has posted several threads in the past with sample PS ideas/drafts

 

[mrh125]

I see one maybe once an app cycle for people I interview. I think over the past cycle, maybe 3-4 at most for all the candidates we discussed at our AdCom meetings.

So, they're rare.

Can a person with a negative letter ever get an interview? if so, in your experience would they get asked about the negative letter they received? I'm genuinely curious about this.

OP has posted several threads in the past with sample PS ideas/drafts

those are really old and completely different from what my actual product was though. those were like pre-first draft freewrites and my personal statement is like draft #60 after extensive editing.

I'm gonna throw this out there and probably get blasted for it....

But...OP...even if an amazing personal statement CAN make a tremendous difference - based on the multiple writing and theme samples you've posted here...yours won't.

Don't overgeneralize my work based off of brainstorming freewrites of mine that aren't even close to my final product. keep these comments to yourself tyvm because those baseless assumptions don't hold any water. I worked a lot in the past few months since then and went through 60 drafts with a quality writing tutor. You'd be pretty surprised what that can do.

 

[ridethecliche]

Don't overgeneralize my work based off of brainstorming freewrites of mine that aren't even close to my final product. keep these comments to yourself tyvm because those baseless assumptions don't hold any water. I worked a lot in the past few months since then and went through 60 drafts with a quality writing tutor. You'd be pretty surprised what that can do.

What? Having someone else write your paper?

 

[mrh125]

What? Having someone else write your paper?

lmao you're hilarious, **** no. A writing tutor has you brainstorm and helps you write your own paper. That's totally different from writing it for you.

 

[Goro]

At our school they do. At schools that pre-screen, maybe not.
Can a person with a negative letter ever get an interview?

Only at a place that does 1:1 interviews, but even then, it's highly unlikley. We do everything we can to preserve the anonymity of the LOR writer to the applicant. We'd never get LORs anymore if work got out that our school compromised LOR writer confidentiality.

If the LOR referred to some aspect of the applicant's personality, like, say, not being a team player, we typically craft an interview question (don't bother asking about what it is; I'm not going to tell you) to assess that.

if so, in your experience would they get asked about the negative letter they received? I'm genuinely curious about this.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Can a person with a negative letter ever I worked a lot in the past few months since then and went through 60 drafts with a quality writing tutor. You'd be pretty surprised what that can do.

No, I wouldn't. I've read hundreds of medical school and residency personal statements, and I was a writing tutor in college. Tutors can help; they can't turn coal into diamonds.

 

[mrh125]

No, I wouldn't. I've read hundreds of medical school and residency personal statements, and I was a writing tutor in college. Tutors can help; they can't turn coal into diamonds.

You're sounding extremely arrogant with your coal and diamonds analogy honestly. You can't say that a freewrite governs a personal statement even remotely no matter that the context, especially when those freewrites are chucked up w/o proofreading in the slightest. I'd show you my actual one, but I don't have anything to prove to you, especially when you're going to be that conceited. Drop that attitude if you expect to be taken seriously.

 

[mrh125]

At our school they do. At schools that pre-screen, maybe not.
Can a person with a negative letter ever get an interview?

Only at a place that does 1:1 interviews, but even then, it's highly unlikley. We do everything we can to preserve the anonymity of the LOR writer to the applicant. We'd never get LORs anymore if work got out that our school compromised LOR writer confidentiality.

If the LOR referred to some aspect of the applicant's personality, like, say, not being a team player, we typically craft an interview question (don't bother asking about what it is; I'm not going to tell you) to assess that.

if so, in your experience would they get asked about the negative letter they received? I'm genuinely curious about this.

Awesome, that's actually really interesting. Thanks for letting me now about that.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

a PS is like the toppings on a hamburger.....it doesn't matter how good they are if the meat is rancid, but they can make an average burger tolerable

Might be able to heal the hurting, but it can't save the dead.

I think that's the right expression...

I'm digging these metaphors. Strong work.

OP has posted several threads in the past with sample PS ideas/drafts

Ouch

If the LOR referred to some aspect of the applicant's personality, like, say, not being a team player, we typically craft an interview question (don't bother asking about what it is; I'm not going to tell you) to assess that.

Out of curiosity, how good of a job do you think you and your peers do in these questions revealing the intended personality flaw?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

You're sounding extremely arrogant with your coal and diamonds analogy honestly. You can't say that a freewrite governs a personal statement even remotely no matter that the context, especially when those freewrites are chucked up w/o proofreading in the slightest. I'd show you my actual one, but I don't have anything to prove to you, especially when you're going to be that conceited. Drop that attitude if you expect to be taken seriously.

I'm not one to defend establishment and hierarchy but generally premeds who tell residents to drop attitudes tend not to fare so hot. Just sayin, I know this is the internet and all, but still..

 

[BeancheBlanco]

Essays can make a difference but have some perspective. You may think your essays are exceptional but so does every other serious medical school applicant. They're probably not as exceptional as you think they are.

 

[mrh125]

I'm not one to defend establishment and hierarchy but generally premeds who tell residents to drop attitudes tend not to fare so hot. Just sayin, I know this is the internet and all, but still..

meh, whatever only difference between us and him often times is a few years and I'm not saying that to discount who he is. He isn't doing any better by making rash assumptions and generalizations based off of a severely limited context that assumes one cannot improve based off of it. Especially with his coal analogy. I've also received positive feedback from personal statement readers here, so i'm not about to be discounted because of comments such as his. You can have all the experience in the world, but that doesn't make it accurate.

 

[Goro]

Good enough that the applicant usually walks right into the net and hangs him/herself.
Out of curiosity, how good of a job do you think you and your peers do in these questions revealing the intended personality flaw?[/QUOTE]

 

[Goro]

Good enough that the interviewee usually walks right into the net and hangs him/herself.
Out of curiosity, how good of a job do you think you and your peers do in these questions revealing the intended personality flaw?[/QUOTE]

 

[ridethecliche]

After reading the LOR:

"Imagine that you're in a situation where xyz happens. How would you handle it?"
Interviewee answers.
"Okay, now say this was how it was handled."
Yada yada yada.

Checkmate.

You're sounding extremely arrogant with your coal and diamonds analogy honestly. You can't say that a freewrite governs a personal statement even remotely no matter that the context, especially when those freewrites are chucked up w/o proofreading in the slightest. I'd show you my actual one, but I don't have anything to prove to you, especially when you're going to be that conceited. Drop that attitude if you expect to be taken seriously.

If there was ever a doubt that you were a troll, the proof is right there.

You're calling a resident that has read apps for multiple levels of applicants arrogant.

OP Wins!

 

[mrh125]

If there was ever a doubt that you were a troll, the proof is right there.

You're calling a resident that has read apps for multiple levels of applicants arrogant.

OP Wins!

LMFAO what? You've got to be joking dude. I'm trolling because I don't allow myself to be sold short by some supposed authority who overgeneralizes me with almost no context?! Be serious. If you're going to allow yourself to be discounted and whittled down by authority alone you have a lot to learn. No disrespect to actual authorities, but come on dude.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

meh, whatever only difference between us and him often times is a few years and I'm not saying that to discount who he is. He isn't doing any better by making rash assumptions and generalizations based off of a severely limited context that assumes one cannot improve based off of it. Especially with his coal analogy. I've also received positive feedback from personal statement readers here, so i'm not about to be discounted because of comments such as his. You can have all the experience in the world, but that doesn't make it accurate.

Regardless of reason, I'm just sayin.

Good enough that the interviewee usually walks right into the net and hangs him/herself.

Fascinating.. now I'm super curious about these traps. Being on the other side of things, obviously we unfortunately all have peers who managed to dodge the traps so it's interesting to think about how many more people are out there that were properly rejected

 

[lmn]

LMFAO what? You've got to be joking dude. I'm trolling because I don't allow myself to be sold short by some supposed authority who overgeneralizes me with almost no context?! Be serious. If you're going to allow yourself to be discounted and whittled down by authority alone you have a lot to learn and a lot of growing to do.

Have fun in med school and residency...

 

[mrh125]

Have fun in med school and residency...

There's a difference between an authority who respects one and one you just labels you based off of erroneous information and tries to put you into a box. the dude in this thread is the latter. Medical school and residency will be learning experiences for all of us, but I know for sure not all authorities will be that way, especially when/if they see a different context of you. I'm never going to let an authority try to compromise who I am nonetheless.

 

[lmn]

There's a difference between an authority who respects one and one you just labels you based off of erroneous information and tries to put you into a box. the dude in this thread is the latter. Medical school and residency will be learning experiences for all of us, but I know for sure not all authorities will be that way, especially when/if they see a different context of you.

Talk to different med students, residents, and practicing physicians and ask how often they were unfairly judged and berated. Sure it isn't going to be everyone, but you're going to have this happen, best of luck to you if you always plan on calling them out and telling them they are wrong.