can this space hold class issues and economic disadvantage?

[4paw]

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Members don't see this ad.

I ask this question because of:

1.The intertwining nature of class and race in systems of oppression
2. The identification by amcas of class as a category that they are interested in tracking, and yet it is a category that there are no msar numbers for
3. The discrepancy between the welcome and the tag line on the forum title. In the welcome, I see the invitation to specifically talk about class:

The welcome message reads as follows:
"Welcome to our newest forum at SDN: Underrepresented in Healthcare.

This forum is for student populations that are underrepresented in the healthcare profession relative to their numbers in the general population.

See the AAMC's definition: http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/start.htm

EDIT: The above url is the definition for underrepresented minorities in medicine. economically disadvantaged is another category which represents under-represented populations, but is not a 'minority'. It is included as a background that makes for eligibility on the Med-mar.
With the following http://www.aamc.org/students/minorities/resources/medmar.htm

There are three comments I'd like to make about this forum. First, this forum is not for discussion of AA; to discuss affirmative action, please use the sociopolitical forum. Second, this forum will not serve as a repository for URM threads from other SDN forums; all threads in this forum will be organic to this forum. Third, SDN will not tolerate racist or intolerant remarks. Trolls are not welcome in this forum or anywhere on SDN; trolls will be banned without discussion. "

The tag line reads as follows:
"Underrepresented in Healthcare: For racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the healthcare profession."


Making this a forum for student populations underrepresented in the healthcare profession relative to their numbers in the population is great because this includes all the systems of oppression that lead to lack of service and lack of represented doctors. I hope that there is also room for talking systems of oppression even when there is over-representation. I saw a great point that asian doctors may be many but then there is a further glass ceiling at the upper levels. This forum, I hope, is for all to discuss advancing in the current system and also potentially what there is to change, and what folks have been doing to do just this. Even if the first part is addressed, and the second is left for 'sociopolitical', I hope that these points will be taken seriously. The argument could be made that were there to be a population breakdown by economic class alone, this would be the largest population underserved, and the largest population underrepresented.

 

[4paw]

Hmmmmmmm.
Silence is a powerful answer!

 

[njbmd]

I am not sure what you are looking for. Your post contains statements and opinions but nothing that actually backs up your statements. There are plenty of forums that have addressed class issues (SocioPolitical, Topics in Healthcare). I'm not sure what you are asking of if you just wanted to make a statement.

You've made your statement now how about some evidence or at least some clarification of the problems that you claim to see?

 

[4paw]

I'm looking for a place where others from ec. disadvantaged backgrounds can talk of the admissions process/med school/evaluate curricula from this point of view without the background noise or silence of classism. the welcome message indicates this could be a place. the tagline does not. i want clarification. i want those who created those conflicting messages to figure this one out.


at first i was dismayed and angry that even here, class is once again overlooked. anyways, i'm rewording, and willing to dialogue. because i believe it's important to take the silence and shame away from poverty and identities born of struggle, in this process.

what part of my previous post would you like further discussion on in terms of good quotes/sources? my academic background is in studying intersecting oppressions and the effect on people - health, social advancement, culture, etc. so i can dialogue. sociopolitical i suppose is meant to be the place, however that space is often quite oppressive.

this post is asking - is this forum for underrepresented populations or just for racial and ethnic designations? will racism and ethnocentrism be talked about even in terms of what ORMs will encounter in their careers, or is this just for underrepresented? will lgbt come up here? is that an ORM in medicine? this is necessary process work. making the room for important discussions to happen.

with you, i need to know what exactly you're interested in knowing more about in order to refer to resources i know about. i'm now invested in the dialogue.

Siobhan

 

[njbmd]

I'm looking for a place where others from ec. disadvantaged backgrounds can talk of the admissions process/med school/evaluate curricula from this point of view without the background noise or silence of classism. the welcome message indicates this could be a place. the tagline does not. i want clarification. i want those who created those conflicting messages to figure this one out.


at first i was dismayed and angry that even here, class is once again overlooked. anyways, i'm rewording, and willing to dialogue. because i believe it's important to take the silence and shame away from poverty and identities born of struggle, in this process.

what part of my previous post would you like further discussion on in terms of good quotes/sources? my academic background is in studying intersecting oppressions and the effect on people - health, social advancement, culture, etc. so i can dialogue. sociopolitical i suppose is meant to be the place, however that space is often quite oppressive.

this post is asking - is this forum for underrepresented populations or just for racial and ethnic designations? will racism and ethnocentrism be talked about even in terms of what ORMs will encounter in their careers, or is this just for underrepresented? will lgbt come up here? is that an ORM in medicine? this is necessary process work. making the room for important discussions to happen.

with you, i need to know what exactly you're interested in knowing more about in order to refer to resources i know about. i'm now invested in the dialogue.

Siobhan

The tagline speaks for itself. This is a space for "racial and ethnic populations that are UNDERREPRESENTED in the healthcare profession". It is not for the "overrepresented in medicine".

While the Sociopolitical Forum in the Doctors Lounge does allow more latitude in the language that is used, all forums on the Student Doctor network are moderated and have rules for posting. If you feel oppressed by a particular poster (or post) you are welcome to report that post by clicking on the "Report Post" icon under the avatar of the poster.

There is also the major forum under which this subforum exist, called Topics in Healthcare. This forum may be more closely aligned to the issues that you state above.

 

[4paw]

The HEART of this matter for me is that the welcome message existed before the tagline, and welcomed any undrerepresented population. I don't know who created the tagline, but they have narrowed down the welcome message.

My REQUEST with this post is that the tagline change to have the wording of the welcome message, which would read:

Underrepresented in Healthcare: for student populations that are underrepresented in the healthcare profession relative to their numbers in the general population.

There would be no need to go to all of those other forums if this one were tagged properly, according to the welcome message. If this forum is now only for underrepresented populations relating to race and ethnicity, as the tagline says, I wonder what happened between the creation of the welcome message and the creation of the tagline.

The issues you are referring me to another forum for relate to the rationale for inclusion here. The ISSUE FOR HERE was the very first point, which is, stated again:

I'm looking for a place where others from ec. disadvantaged backgrounds can talk of the admissions process/med school/evaluate curricula from this point of view without the background noise or silence of classism.


Siobhan

 

[melissainsd]

The HEART of this matter for me is that the welcome message existed before the tagline, and welcomed any undrerepresented population. I don't know who created the tagline, but they have narrowed down the welcome message.

My REQUEST with this post is that the tagline change to have the wording of the welcome message, which would read:

Underrepresented in Healthcare: for student populations that are underrepresented in the healthcare profession relative to their numbers in the general population.

There would be no need to go to all of those other forums if this one were tagged properly, according to the welcome message. If this forum is now only for underrepresented populations relating to race and ethnicity, as the tagline says, I wonder what happened between the creation of the welcome message and the creation of the tagline.

The issues you are referring me to another forum for relate to the rationale for inclusion here. The ISSUE FOR HERE was the very first point, which is, stated again:

I'm looking for a place where others from ec. disadvantaged backgrounds can talk of the admissions process/med school/evaluate curricula from this point of view without the background noise or silence of classism.


Siobhan

AMCAS defined URM as: "Underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population."

I think your question has already been answered by njbmd. This is a forum for URMs. I am sorry if you find the forums dedicated to sociopolitical discussions to be full of background noise, but that is precisely what you are bringing here- noise.

 

[4paw]

tag for moderators -

what's the deal with the tagline versus the welcome message?

are economically disadvantaged part of this space or not?

Siobhan

 

[4paw]

I realize that the issue of economically disadvantaged background being an underrepresented population in medicine is confused by the first post referencing a url to the underrepresented *minority* definition.

economically disadvantaged is another category which represents under-represented populations, but is not a 'minority'. It is included as a background that makes for eligibility on the Med-mar.

With the following http://www.aamc.org/students/minorities/resources/medmar.htm

Siobhan

 

[4whom]

Actually, economically disadvantaged persons are indeed a "minority". One need only a few basic US stats and a dictionary to figure that one out. That said, they really should change the name on this forum to something more accurate.

 

[4paw]

Actually, economically disadvantaged persons are indeed a "minority". One need only a few basic US stats and a dictionary to figure that one out. That said, they really should change the name on this forum to something more accurate.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty05.html
That's u.s. census. gives a % of total population under the poverty line as aprox 15%. When looking at what the poverty line actually is, many would say that number is higher, still a minority. You are right. In terms of numbers in medicine reflecting the population??? Wouldn't know exactly, as that's not out there. However the studies leading up to med-mar say that this is an issue. just not tracked too well right now. People who are 'not white' make up the majority, true? In feminist-of-colour circles, that is what is talked about, but that may be for toronto. not sure of the stats for the states.

i agree with a tagline change. however 'minority' is not in the tagline. what i don't agree with is that the underrepresented populations are unnecessarily narrowed even past what aamc does. not sure why.

you're not revealing much of your standpoint, and your name is close to mine, so i'm interested in that development. especially since your name choice actually shifts my name choice. i realized only recently that 4paw sounds a bit like 'for pa' as in 'father'. With your handle around now, it's that second meaning that's encouraged. In checking, looks like you just created your handle. i'll be interested to get a better sense of you as you are around longer.

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States for context on poverty line figure.

Siobhan

 

[4paw]

4whom:

The other association to your name for me was "for whom the bell tolls". I found this beautiful source for that, in wikipedia:

----------------------------------

The title is taken from "Meditation XVII" of Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions, a 1624 metaphysical poem by John Donne.

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Whom_the_Bell_Tolls

 

[4whom]

That might be the case in Toronto, sure, but it is not the case in the US as a whole. Most feminists I know don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

 

[BarrySanders]

I wouldn't be opposed to topics being discussed here that relate to class and economic disadvantage because it is Truly a disadvantage in a process that demands such great educational success. But I think a dialogue about such things and its relationships with ethnicity and race would be interesting. For example, some interesting tidbits I have are:

1) My family does not fall under the poverty line and would fit more into the lower middle class socioeconomic status. However, I was raised in an inner city or "ghetto" and was thus educationally disadvantaged by a terrible school system.

2) I know of a couple of my classmates whose family fits into the working class or lower middle class because only the father works and the mother stays at home. However, they still were raised in suburbs and were able to attend good schools prior to college.

3)I know a few white classmates who belong to lower class rural families and who are the first to attend college in their families.

I have more tidbits but they can be saved later for dialogue but i'm interested to hear what you have to say. But overall I do think there are various disadvantages that could possibly hinder a student's progress but it is important to express those through essays ( if you feel you were truly at a disadvantage) ALONG with proven academic success through improvement and upward trends. The rest is up to Adcomms.

 

[Quynh2007]

does this sub-forum include URMs in healthcare outside of medicine? I'm attending a PhD program in Clinical Psychology come fall...

similar to many URMs on this board who hope to one day make an impact in communities that are sorely lacking in URM healthcare professionals, I too aspire to broaden psychological interventions that are more effective and targeted for URMs in the US and my second goal is to help to develop developing countries' limited psychological research infrastructure, which will provide many interesting research opportunities in those countries.

Although I would not be considered a URM if I had pursued medicine (I'm Vietnamese), I am in my current chosen field, and so I understand the struggles. I'm jealous that there isn't this type of resource for me in my field, often times I feel so inadequate or inferior to my professors and even my peers with their laundry list of accomplishments. Anyway, I just wanted to say that many of you are inspirations for future aspirants and letting them know that their dreams and goals are attainable, and I hope you know that even if it may not be told often enough.

 

[4paw]

Hi Barry Sanders and quynh,

The way in which the lens of class reveals the med admissions process and healthcare delivery is something that has great interest for me right now. Race is also a lens that I am very familiar with, and so I am interested in what specific and local experiences are for a visible minority who is overrepresented in medicine.

I've been doing a lot of thinking and observing and reading. Now that there are others who would be able to get a discussion going on this thread, I have been dragging my feet just contributing and keeping it going. So, now I'm posting to keep this happening and together we can draw out a discussion.

What has been most interesting for me lately has been how race and class are used in the admissions process. In other words, the history of aamc addressing the two issues, how class is generally considered in terms of how much weight a particular gpa will have, but not necessarily how a particular background can contribute to diversity and to better service in healthcare. How race has statistics kept now, and the rationales being diversity of the medical class, and hopefully the idea that underrepresented communities will be served better. Those two issues, that came together in the same report, leading to equal representation in initiatives such as med-mar, are treated so differently. And they are so disconnected from each other, even though it is the fact that racial discrimination and economic disadvantage are often the reasons that there is underserviced communities with the particular way of financing healthcare in the states at present.

i'm also thinking of class baggage that comes through in interview season. the disadvantage of unconscious internalized oppression, as it is called in social theory circles. I posted a harvard link in a thread on stereotype threat and the mcat. These kinds of things could potentially follow a candidate through interviews. I'm thinking of 1) how to know the ins and outs of how clothing is judged - some of the first impressions. a working class applicant does not necessarily have a family member they can turn to to learn this code of fabric, cut, etc, that are the codes. 2) in speaking with a friend about how to present background, she is very successful in her presentation of self despite a background that did not teach her this 'cultural capital'. She speaks of Oprah. there is a way to talk of disadvantage. The accepted way of speaking of this is in a celebratory way. No recognition of the weight of hardship, no 'negativity', nothing of a political analysis that often comes in social work or sociology or studies of systems of oppression. Knowing how to talk of these issues is important, and very different from many other fields that rely on a person's lived experience to make service provision better. i've been wanting to write a thread on prep for interviews with this learned knowledge in mind - potentially this could help others in their process.

And also I've been thinking of how stigma works, and how unclear a process that is. Irving Goffman has some great stuff on that, and having a psychology student as part of this discussion will be great to get at that area of navigating the process 😉 And the range of experience that falls within any umbrella category. These recent contributions are exciting to me.

Siobhan

 

[Lshapley]

Can I jump on the bandwagon of people requesting that the economically and educationally disadvantaged have a voice in this category or at least have one separate from financial aid? This area of SDN is dedicated to people who are concerned with admission to medical school (pre-allo, pre-osteo, mcat, non-trads applying to med school). There is a major section on the AMCAS for the educationally and economically disadvantaged and I would think that people who have previously identified themselves as such could provide guidance to people who are currently filling out this section. This is not to even mention the other social, psychological and academic aspects involved with joining a profession that is dominated by people who come from educationally and economically advantaged backgrounds.

Financial Aid is a totally different category, not to mention that it is at the bottom of the SDN board.